"I'd pick hell over an anti-gay heaven"

[earthfreak]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jul/26/desmond-tutu-id-pick-hell-over-anti-gay-heaven/



So, this made me happy and all,   I posted it on IGI and got just two responses from religious folks who simply said, more or less "he's wrong"

so, whatever

but what fascinates me, kind of, is the range of ideas about what we can know about "God's will"  - even as an Atheist, I speak and think about this, just more as a metaphor (what is god's will? means what is best, most honest, truest, kindest, .....????)

Some folks really think God is a guy with a will, and it can be known.  it's in the bible and there are people who can interpret it RIGHT, so you can be sure, this is what god wants.

There are plenty of other religious folks who seem to fall into line somewhat with Bishop Tutu - that there are possibilities, and that, if God is really the asshole that some say he is, then we can reject him  (with various notions of consequences - therefore I am an atheist, therefore, I will go to hell if they're right - okay, then)

I think if you look at the history of religion, and even how it plays out today for some, the notion of God was not necessarily someone who had your best interests in mind at all.  Gods have been vengeful and capricious and pretty sociopathic, including the one I was (sort of) raised with.    Interesting this notion that God loves us, and is somehow pleasant, and trying to reconcile that with stories where that's clearly not the case.

[One Above All]

I'd pick hell over a sadistic, childish god's heaven where I'd have to reassure its mightiness that its dick and/or boobs is/are sufficiently big by constantly kissing its ass. Thankfully, there is no afterlife. There's no god either.

[Traveler]

I agree. The more I've learned about the bible, the more strongly I feel that heaven as most literalist christians describe would be a terrible place. A bunch of brainwashed zombies worshiping a tyrant.

[Nick]

That would get old really fast...like 20 minutes worth of it.

Christians have always had a hard time with heaven.  I think it is for that very reason.  They can't understand how this place will be so good without some kind of conflict.  Conflict is what makes life interesting.

[Nam]

I'd pick hell for the heat. I'm a Floridian, warm or cold weather doesn't suit me unless it's for a limited time. Of course there's probably no rain in hell, or in heaven for that matter. I like rain just not driving in it.

You know, I'd dislike both places. Florida is fine for me. My bones and/or ashes will be happy here in Florida.

-Nam

[median]

I'd pick hell over a sadistic, childish god's heaven where I'd have to reassure its mightiness that its dick and/or boobs is/are sufficiently big by constantly kissing its ass. Thankfully, there is no afterlife. There's no god either.

You lied to us! LOL

[One Above All]

I'd pick hell over a sadistic, childish god's heaven where I'd have to reassure its mightiness that its dick and/or boobs is/are sufficiently big by constantly kissing its ass. Thankfully, there is no afterlife. There's no god either.

You lied to us! LOL

I had originally typed "There's no sadistic god either", but I thought it was somewhat implied. Clearly it wasn't, so let Me restate:
There is no sadistic god. I would never allow it.

[neopagan]

would Tutu pick hell over an anti-atheist heaven?

As it stands now, he has not.

[earthfreak]

I dont' think the point has been addressed, or do you know something that I don't?

I know a lot of religious people who believe that atheists will be in heaven (if they believe in heaven at all)  - I don't think you can say that just because he has a religion.

[Graybeard]

I know a lot of religious people who believe that atheists will be in heaven.

So why aren't they atheists?

[Add Homonym]

I know a lot of religious people who believe that atheists will be in heaven.

So why aren't they atheists?

bcos they needed xianity to convince them that there is a heven.

Not many atheists believe that there will be any Christians in heaven, so we can't  return the favour.

[Chronos]

... but what fascinates me, kind of, is the range of ideas about what we can know about "God's will"  ...

It is God's will to kill all the infidels and all the sinners.  He's on vacation at the moment, but when he returns everyone will die.


It is God's will that everyone eat feces. Only those who engage in coprophagia will go to heaven.

[William]

Mmm ... Tutu says:

I would not worship a God who is homophobic ...

So where's the evidence that God isn't homophobic?  Tutu still worships, right?

Or maybe God just had a short phase of homophobia, just for a particular episode of His plans for earth, and the [/homophobia] message got lost somewhere along the way.  In the garden after all, God made Adam with no Eve to start with - but plenty goats    So there must have been a degree of freedom in God's original definition of sex and marriage.

BTW, not sure, is there any sex in heaven?  The place will be stuffed full of old people and unborn babies - so sex will be a little out of place. 

[neopagan]

^^^^good questions... So, we would have to assume he hates things (homosexuality, murder, evil, sin, death, mixed bathing) that do not exist where he is from (heaven) but started in the  place he created?  Omni max has to be the most inept creator of all time.   Oh yeah, he created foreskins too...

[Traveler]

One of my very many theories is that some christians like the general theory of god, and perhaps believe the bible is just a bad attempt to describe him/her/it. I remember christians as a kid telling me that god had no gender, for instance. And yet conservative christians are completely clear that its a him.

Others simply say the bible is a book of metaphorical stories that teach, much like Aesop's Fables. Each with a message to tell.

Where I grew up, the christians I knew thought that bible literalists were completely nuts.

[junebug72]

would Tutu pick hell over an anti-atheist heaven?

As it stands now, he has not.

Well I would.  I bet Tutu would too.  Seems like a man with Love in his heart. Go Tutu!!!

[junebug72]

Mmm ... Tutu says:

I would not worship a God who is homophobic ...

So where's the evidence that God isn't homophobic?  Tutu still worships, right?

Or maybe God just had a short phase of homophobia, just for a particular episode of His plans for earth, and the [/homophobia] message got lost somewhere along the way.  In the garden after all, God made Adam with no Eve to start with - but plenty goats    So there must have been a degree of freedom in God's original definition of sex and marriage.

BTW, not sure, is there any sex in heaven?  The place will be stuffed full of old people and unborn babies - so sex will be a little out of place.

I hope so.  I don't like to go a day much less an eternity.  I like to think of heaven as all the pleasures of life and none of the sorrows.  Freedom to travel the universe with your love. Making love from galaxy to galaxy.  This is my imagination I know you can make fun if you like but I'm just joking.  I have no idea what heaven is like but I hope you all are there and I hope it is more wonderful than we can imagine.

[junebug72]

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/jul/26/desmond-tutu-id-pick-hell-over-anti-gay-heaven/



So, this made me happy and all,   I posted it on IGI and got just two responses from religious folks who simply said, more or less "he's wrong"

so, whatever

but what fascinates me, kind of, is the range of ideas about what we can know about "God's will"  - even as an Atheist, I speak and think about this, just more as a metaphor (what is god's will? means what is best, most honest, truest, kindest, .....????)

Some folks really think God is a guy with a will, and it can be known.  it's in the bible and there are people who can interpret it RIGHT, so you can be sure, this is what god wants.

There are plenty of other religious folks who seem to fall into line somewhat with Bishop Tutu - that there are possibilities, and that, if God is really the asshole that some say he is, then we can reject him  (with various notions of consequences - therefore I am an atheist, therefore, I will go to hell if they're right - okay, then)

I think if you look at the history of religion, and even how it plays out today for some, the notion of God was not necessarily someone who had your best interests in mind at all.  Gods have been vengeful and capricious and pretty sociopathic, including the one I was (sort of) raised with.    Interesting this notion that God loves us, and is somehow pleasant, and trying to reconcile that with stories where that's clearly not the case.

Yes God's will is hard to understand.  I think that's why people cling to religion even when it's so obviously flawed.  They want to know God's will so they can face death w/o fear.  Religions claim to "know" God's will so people believe it.  I say it's as simple as using your conscience.  When your conscience keeps you up at night and want leave you alone you have probably gone against God's will.  When you feel good about something you have done right this means you are living within God's will.  When religions make it seem like it's God's will to hate it confuses the conscience and it doesn't work properly, interfering with the ability to distinguish right from wrong.  They could hear a little voice inside their head saying stop hating gays and they would think it's the devil when it's really God.  That is why you should be very careful who you let guide your spirit.  My conscience is my guide.  To me this is the same as saying God is my guide.


That's my take on it.  It is my hope that this helps you.  At least gives you something to chew on.  Please chew before you spit.

[Add Homonym]

When your conscience keeps you up at night and want leave you alone you have probably gone against God's will.  When you feel good about something you have done right this means you are living within God's will.

I think more likely, we are able to justify anything bad we have done, and lie awake thinking about trivia.

I tend to lie awake thinking about evil that's been done against me.

[neopagan]

When your conscience keeps you up at night and want leave you alone you have probably gone against God's will.  When you feel good about something you have done right this means you are living within God's will.

problem is... folks do som  pretty crazy things and call it god's will.  See David Koresh

[junebug72]

I feel ya on that one Add.  I'm still losing sleep over getting laid off and the discrimination I suffered at the hands of my co workers there.  It was bearable because I loved what I did there.  I also have a strong will and I was determined to leave a good impression of a homosexual on them old hillbillies.  I know I need to stop it for me so I have been working on it.  It's getting better.

David Koresh is a good example of how dangerous the bible can be in the wrong hands!!!  It is also a perfect example of why you should be good parents.  You know I've seen the documentary on Koresh and he was abandoned by his father.  I can't remember details but Koresh's life was the perfect storm as well as the lives of the folks that joined him.  It seems like the dad tried to kill his mother or something like that.   

[Bluecolour]

Funny, I opened the link and saw an ad for this page

http://yourpersonalprophecy.com/?gclid=CK-9_9az-bgCFTMQtAod9GwAUA

Apparently God's will was only a click away.

[epidemic]

I like to think of heaven as all the pleasures of life and none of the sorrows.  Freedom to travel the universe with your love. Making love from galaxy to galaxy.  This is my imagination I know you can make fun if you like but I'm just joking.  I have no idea what heaven is like but I hope you all are there and I hope it is more wonderful than we can imagine.

When you make love for the 1 billionth time, in the billionth galaxy, and eat the 3 billionth steak and chase that with your billionth klondike bar, don't you think it might bet boooring.

At some point you are gonna want to change things up.  heavenly Sex with your own gender might be a change of pace for the next billon years.

maybe if there is porn in heaven you might be able to pull of a few more years of pleasure.  But eventually I think I am gonna run out of ideas. 

the only way I see heaven is to be absorbed into a collective (sorta Borg like ) For heaven to not be a pain in the ass eventually I think you actually have to completely lose who you are.

[epidemic]

I say it's as simple as using your conscience.  When your conscience keeps you up at night and want leave you alone you have probably gone against God's will.  When you feel good about something you have done right this means you are living within God's will.  When religions make it seem like it's God's will to hate it confuses the conscience and it doesn't work properly, interfering with the ability to distinguish right from wrong.  They could hear a little voice inside their head saying stop hating gays and they would think it's the devil when it's really God.  That is why you should be very careful who you let guide your spirit.  My conscience is my guide.  To me this is the same as saying God is my guide.


That's my take on it.  It is my hope that this helps you.  At least gives you something to chew on.  Please chew before you spit.

Conscience is a completely subjective benchmark.  Some people feel killing is justified as long as the other person has something you want.  there is no guilt, they feel absolutely right in what they have done.

Honor killing, killing because someone talked about your momma, pirating movies, shoplifting, cheating, porn, masturbation, pre-marital sex and so on......  are all things people do with a clean conscience.

[Hatter23]

I like to think of heaven as all the pleasures of life and none of the sorrows.  Freedom to travel the universe with your love. Making love from galaxy to galaxy.  This is my imagination I know you can make fun if you like but I'm just joking.  I have no idea what heaven is like but I hope you all are there and I hope it is more wonderful than we can imagine.

When you make love for the 1 billionth time, in the billionth galaxy, and eat the 3 billionth steak and chase that with your billionth klondike bar, don't you think it might bet boooring.

At some point you are gonna want to change things up.  heavenly Sex with your own gender might be a change of pace for the next billon years.

maybe if there is porn in heaven you might be able to pull of a few more years of pleasure.  But eventually I think I am gonna run out of ideas. 

the only way I see heaven is to be absorbed into a collective (sorta Borg like ) For heaven to not be a pain in the ass eventually I think you actually have to completely lose who you are.

Actually from what I've heard, now this is mechanical, not woo souls n stuff, but the human brain only has room for 500 years of experience and then it would start 'overwriting files.'

Choosing what files to dispose of would keep things fresh.

[Traveler]

The various images of heaven are interesting. Most folks I grew up with seemed to think you became "pure soul" rather than having a physical body. Not sure exactly what that entails, but I suppose becoming "one with the universe" is certainly more interesting to me than worshiping a petty god for all eternity. If I have a body, and don't have to worship, then I don't know how long it would take to get bored. I suppose it depends on how much I get to travel. Checking out the other galaxies would be very cool for awhile.

[neopagan]

I kept hearing there was no sex in heaven - in the fundie world, they quote how the lawd's word says there are no marriages and therefore no hanky-panky... 

For a place with so little description in writing, and a great number of the worldy pleasures we already are quite fond of NOT being there (sex, football, bacon), not to mention the folks you would be hanging out with, there sure are a lot of folks signing up to go.  I don't get it...

[epidemic]

Actually from what I've heard, now this is mechanical, not woo souls n stuff, but the human brain only has room for 500 years of experience and then it would start 'overwriting files.'

Choosing what files to dispose of would keep things fresh.

I hadn't thought of that.   One could eliminate ones short term memory and never get bored.  I would buy that one.  Limiting short term memory would allow you to enjoy the best things in life over and over and never a day would go by where you could not find something to do.

"Hi I'm Tom"


"Hi I'm Tom"

My aunt got like that before she passed.  You could call her a bitch and she would get mad right at the appropriate moment and then 30 seconds later she would be happy again.  She terribly injured herself and forgot about it.   

The becoming 1 with the universe thing does not sound like fun (either joining the collective borgs) or becoming 1 with matter sound distasteful.

Becoming on with the cosmos sounds alot like what happens in the atheist view of the afterlife.  You would not be you,  you would be spent electromagnetic waves and chemicals slowly drifting to a point of high density, you would neither care, nor want, nor anything...   You would just "be"

I like the short term memory thing.  If I can have some input in the process it would be great.   Ok today I am going to forget about sex and relearn all over again.  This would allow me to retain what I want until I am bored.

I would like to unlearn how to predict scary movies.  (I enjoy a good scare and I simply cant get scared in a movie any longer.)

[junebug72]

I say it's as simple as using your conscience.  When your conscience keeps you up at night and want leave you alone you have probably gone against God's will.  When you feel good about something you have done right this means you are living within God's will.  When religions make it seem like it's God's will to hate it confuses the conscience and it doesn't work properly, interfering with the ability to distinguish right from wrong.  They could hear a little voice inside their head saying stop hating gays and they would think it's the devil when it's really God.  That is why you should be very careful who you let guide your spirit.  My conscience is my guide.  To me this is the same as saying God is my guide.


That's my take on it.  It is my hope that this helps you.  At least gives you something to chew on.  Please chew before you spit.

Conscience is a completely subjective benchmark.  Some people feel killing is justified as long as the other person has something you want.  there is no guilt, they feel absolutely right in what they have done.

Honor killing, killing because someone talked about your momma, pirating movies, shoplifting, cheating, porn, masturbation, pre-marital sex and so on......  are all things people do with a clean conscience.

Those kind of people have no desire to know God.  They don't care about anything.  Narcissism and personality disorders can also cause these types of behaviors. Grown ups doing sex type things are nothing to feel guilty about.  A good man or woman whether religious or not will feel guilty for cheating on his/her spouse.

You're talking about some people.  Most of us have a good working conscience.  I would also think it very difficult to prove that they're conscience isn't working.  I bet it does they just ignore it.