Author Topic: Though not a strictly New argument  (Read 668 times)

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Offline epidemic

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Re: Though not a strictly New argument
« Reply #29 on: August 27, 2013, 07:30:46 AM »
Epidemic: Let me give you an example of a truth you probably wont believe.   
I caught a fart and I bottled it.  This is absolutely true but I can not prove it.  It defies logic so you do not believe me in all likelihood.  But that does not make it false.
It was a fluke and of target I was aiming it at my sister and it back fired, however it just had the right density to be bottled, I saw it coming and decided to catch it.  It was awesome and fricking hot and sticky. I've got in my cupboard your welcome to come round and have a sniff. It was hardly worth catching, because nobody was watching so I have no witnesses either.

Ummm,  what are you trying to say?   Do you believe it was impossible for me to have caught my own bullet I fired?  It is an absolutely true story for what is is worth.  The odds are stacked heavily against it but that is the thing about odds.  Every once and a while some one wins despite the odds.  It was a billion to one shot that happened to happen on my shooting range. 

But even if you don't believe my story which I completely understand,  apply the concept else where to a story that is unbelievable to you at one point and now is fact.  some tales told by people are not believed but are absolutely true, they are simply yet to be proven or currently unprovable because the event has passed.

 


Offline Hatter23

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Re: Though not a strictly New argument
« Reply #30 on: August 27, 2013, 07:57:03 AM »
I remembered another one, and this is seen a lot: I used to be an atheist now I'm a Christian.

The problem with this is, I feel, most of what they perceive as "atheism" has nothing to do with the definition.

Example:

[Christian speaking] "I grew up in a Christian home. My parents are Christian, grandparents, siblings, etc., but I wasn't saved until much later."

That's not the same as being an atheist, in my opinion.

Either one has never had any knowledge of god/s, or one actively subscribes to atheism based on the knowledge (cumulatively) out there.

Another example:

I came from [religion here], and am no longer an atheist. Meaning: I didn't believe in The One True Godâ„¢, therefore I believed in a false god and therefore was an atheist.

There are many other variations to that.

-Nam
Or they just generally got out of the habit of going to church and fell into criminality....I supposed that might be "atheism" as they may have just put religion out of their mind, except of course, when it was convenient. Such as swearing to 'god' that this is the last time the get high/steal each time they get caught or get close to ODing or getting caught. All of these attitudes have little to do with the intellectual movement of atheism.

Or they were "angry at God" types who parroted the various well know sayings of the intellectual atheist movement, but never quite understood them. This is a bit of a 'no true Scotsman' but just arriving to the correct answer; "there is no god" by illogical means....also means illogical means can sway you from the correct conclusion.

Lets not be disingenuous ourselves by denying that these type of people exist. They do, and in the thousands.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline bertatberts

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Re: Though not a strictly New argument
« Reply #31 on: August 27, 2013, 08:04:58 AM »
Epidemic: Let me give you an example of a truth you probably wont believe.   
I caught a fart and I bottled it.  This is absolutely true but I can not prove it.  It defies logic so you do not believe me in all likelihood.  But that does not make it false.
It was a fluke and of target I was aiming it at my sister and it back fired, however it just had the right density to be bottled, I saw it coming and decided to catch it.  It was awesome and fricking hot and sticky. I've got in my cupboard your welcome to come round and have a sniff. It was hardly worth catching, because nobody was watching so I have no witnesses either.

Ummm,  what are you trying to say?   Do you believe it was impossible for me to have caught my own bullet I fired?  It is an absolutely true story for what is is worth.
I don't care one way or the other, even if it's true to you. However it would take evidence to convince me. That was my point. You relating it as a truth is pointless without evidence.
Quote from: epidemic
The odds are stacked heavily against it but that is the thing about odds.  Every once and a while some one wins despite the odds.  It was a billion to one shot that happened to happen on my shooting range.
But only to you, which makes it moot.
Quote from: epidemic
But even if you don't believe my story which I completely understand,  apply the concept else where to a story that is unbelievable to you at one point and now is fact.  some tales told by people are not believed but are absolutely true, they are simply yet to be proven or currently unprovable because the event has passed.
That would not be relevant, as that wasn't my point, without evidence it is non-sensical to demand truth.
If I lived at the time they believed the world was flat, Because I question everything, I would be like ancient Greeks and would be very critical of that mentality. Without evidence I would not accept the claims it was flat.
Also if a story/tale asks me to suspend belief, then it is put to the side as trash.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Online Nam

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Re: Though not a strictly New argument
« Reply #32 on: August 27, 2013, 11:29:57 AM »
I remembered another one, and this is seen a lot: I used to be an atheist now I'm a Christian.

The problem with this is, I feel, most of what they perceive as "atheism" has nothing to do with the definition.

Example:

[Christian speaking] "I grew up in a Christian home. My parents are Christian, grandparents, siblings, etc., but I wasn't saved until much later."

That's not the same as being an atheist, in my opinion.

Either one has never had any knowledge of god/s, or one actively subscribes to atheism based on the knowledge (cumulatively) out there.

Another example:

I came from [religion here], and am no longer an atheist. Meaning: I didn't believe in The One True Godâ„¢, therefore I believed in a false god and therefore was an atheist.

There are many other variations to that.

-Nam
Or they just generally got out of the habit of going to church and fell into criminality....I supposed that might be "atheism" as they may have just put religion out of their mind, except of course, when it was convenient. Such as swearing to 'god' that this is the last time the get high/steal each time they get caught or get close to ODing or getting caught. All of these attitudes have little to do with the intellectual movement of atheism.

Or they were "angry at God" types who parroted the various well know sayings of the intellectual atheist movement, but never quite understood them. This is a bit of a 'no true Scotsman' but just arriving to the correct answer; "there is no god" by illogical means....also means illogical means can sway you from the correct conclusion.

Lets not be disingenuous ourselves by denying that these type of people exist. They do, and in the thousands.

I don't deny they exist, I deny they are atheist.

;)

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Though not a strictly New argument
« Reply #33 on: August 27, 2013, 12:41:39 PM »
Or they just generally got out of the habit of going to church and fell into criminality....I supposed that might be "atheism" as they may have just put religion out of their mind, except of course, when it was convenient. Such as swearing to 'god' that this is the last time the get high/steal each time they get caught or get close to ODing or getting caught. All of these attitudes have little to do with the intellectual movement of atheism.

Or they were "angry at God" types who parroted the various well know sayings of the intellectual atheist movement, but never quite understood them. This is a bit of a 'no true Scotsman' but just arriving to the correct answer; "there is no god" by illogical means....also means illogical means can sway you from the correct conclusion.

Lets not be disingenuous ourselves by denying that these type of people exist. They do, and in the thousands.

I don't deny they exist, I deny they are atheist.

;)

-Nam

But how do we say they aren't atheist when in the former case their god belief waivers minute to minute, and in the second case, they are oft saying the common sayings amonst the atheist movement...without being guilty of a "No True Scotsman?"
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Online Nam

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Re: Though not a strictly New argument
« Reply #34 on: August 27, 2013, 03:07:51 PM »
When they turn back to religion, in the end, that's when you know. And they all mainly do.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Though not a strictly New argument
« Reply #35 on: August 28, 2013, 05:36:41 AM »
When they turn back to religion, in the end, that's when you know. And they all mainly do.

-Nam

Ah but they pull that one on us "You never were a believer if you turned to atheism"

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Online Nam

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Re: Though not a strictly New argument
« Reply #36 on: August 28, 2013, 10:06:08 AM »
When they turn back to religion, in the end, that's when you know. And they all mainly do.

-Nam

Ah but they pull that one on us "You never were a believer if you turned to atheism"



"If you are baptized in the name of Jesus, you are always a TRUE believer, whether you stray from that path, or not."

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey