Author Topic: God is More Likely than Luck  (Read 3641 times)

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Online nogodsforme

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2013, 09:32:16 PM »
If you are in a country with the kind of medical care where screening and treatment can catch cancer in time, you were already "lucky", long before the cancer. Because not everyone is in that situation. In Central Africa, if you get cancer (assuming you live long enough to) you will die while suffering excruciating pain. Hardly anyone there has any good luck. Wonder why that is? 

So the lucky part is more about where you were born, not that you caught the cancer in time. Same thing with being an amputee, or being a premature baby, or having just about any medical or health problem. Just make sure you aren't born in a really poor, dysfunctional or war-ravaged country. If your country has universal health care, you will have absolutely amazing luck and won't lose your home to pay medical bills. :P

A loving creator god does not seem to care very much about the health of people in rural India or in the slums of Brazil. They can just curl up and go to hell for all he gives a f!ck.[1] But boy, is the loving creator god good at taking care of the atheists in Scandinavia and Japan! Creator god must just really love those unbelievers. &)

God is everywhere, so he must hate some people. Or maybe there is no god and no such thing as luck, either? Doesn't it seem interesting that people are so much luckier if they are born in a country where science-based public health, advanced medical care and trained medical personnel are widely available?  :?
 1. Those folks have to hope that a group like Doctors Without Borders--you know, an organization of human beings-- is around to help.
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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #30 on: July 26, 2013, 10:46:31 PM »
If you live in the western world....how hard can your life be.......in the eastern areas where women are oppressed,you may have something to talk about

This isn't fair. There's tons of difficulty in the western world. Tell the woman who's been raped that she's got nothing to complain about, or who's lost her family, or who has a painful and/or terminal illness, or who can't afford to feed her children.

Tragedy exists everywhere. Just because someone else has a worse tragedy doesn't mean you can trivialize a westerners.
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Online xyzzy

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2013, 12:32:36 AM »
JB - when you talk of luck in the way you do, it leaves me with the impression that you consider that there is some external sentient force that influences events in your personal favour.

However, I think the point that nogodsforme was driving at is that you were not so much lucky, as it was advantageous that you had access to world-class health care.

Were there an actual interventionist "god", then we would expect to see a model that reflects something other than what we encounter in practice.

The reality is that this recent turn of events including incidence, detection, treatment, and prognosis fit a statistical model which varies largely according to geography. In your case you had the advantage to live in an area where same-day (ambulatory) surgery is effectively the standard of care. Had you been living in a third-world country, you might not have been so "lucky". Obviously, I am pleased for you that the outcome was, indeed, in your favour.

If the above isn't what you were driving at. Perhaps you could give examples of making your own luck whereby events have clearly been manipulated to your advantage in a way that could only happen through an external agency.

Edited to clarify a term
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 02:22:29 AM by xyzzy »
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2013, 03:21:52 AM »
To an extent, of course, you can make your own "luck".

Say you want a new job.  If you don't breathe a word of it to anyone, never look at want ads, never go on training courses, there's a small chance that your dream job will plop in your lap.

On the other hand, if you want a job, and you tell everyone about it, scour the industry press, make connections with recruiters, take training courses in the right skills.....then all of a sudden you will "luckily" be in the place where you can get that job.

As has been said, its all about probabilities - and for many, many things, there are things you can do that increase those probabilities.

I suspect that that is where some superstitions come from.  Not walking under ladders, for example, makes you less likely to have paint dripped on you, or a hammer dropped on your head.  "Gosh, I was so unlucky to get paint on my coat, if only I hadn't walked under that ladder". 

Selective memory and confidence plays a part too - if we are wearing a particular pair of boxers when we score (horrible expression!), we might think they are lucky.  So we wear them again, the increased expectation makes us that little bit more confident, which makes us more likely to score again, and so the "magic" boxers gain more power in our minds.  And any time we DON'T score, of course, the boxers "were having an off day".  Rabbits feet and touching wood as well - things make us more secure and confident, hence more relaxed, hence more likely to spot opportunities.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2013, 04:37:26 AM »
I am hard wired to believe in something.  I honestly believe I can not help it.  I feel it in my guts if you know what I mean.  When I reason this is where I end up.  Belief in something more powerful than humans.  That loves us and wants what is best but will not control us.
If the only harm that ever came to us was as a direct result of a specific choice we made, then your "god that loves us and wants what is best but will not control us" would make sense. In a world fraught with deadly earthquakes, tsunamis, tornadoes, droughts, etc., your conclusion is baseless.

When I reason, this is where I end up.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2013, 07:16:20 AM »


It seems more likely to me that there was and is a Creator with a reason for Creating life.


Why?

Here's the reply I promised. It is from another thread but I believe this pretty much sums me up.


My belief in a Creator is not limited to explaining where Love comes from.  Matter of fact that has very little to do with why I believe in God.  First of all I find it hard to comprehend the amount of luck it would take for our planet to end up with so many forms of complex life from an explosion.  Explosions are messy business.  There is also the lack of other planets like ours.  If it was that easy there should be planets like ours all over.

2nd if humans came from water not dirt then we should be natural swimmers.  Most of us have to "learn" to swim and our bodies have more elements of dirt than water, could be wrong here, I'm sure you'll let me know. :).  There is also the fact that not all creatures evolved into the same thing.  Why remain a fly when you could've evolved into a human or lion, etc.  We have flies because we need flies.  We need all our different life forms.  We all have a "purpose".

Then there is my spirit.  I feel my spirit and it feels eternal unlike this flesh I wear.  It's the "real" me. 

These are my main points of belief in a Creator.  I very well believe that there was an Intelligence involved in our making.  No magic necessary, intelligence yes.  Love yes.  I believe Love and hate comes from us.  We are capable of both because we have freewill.  We are not forced to love it is a choice.

I am quite aware that some babies can swim but mine could not.  He is still not a good swimmer.  My mom could not swim.  I know several people that can not swim.  I can but I'm not that great either.  I have to hold my nose which leaves me swimming 1 handed.

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Offline junebug72

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2013, 07:46:07 AM »
JB - when you talk of luck in the way you do, it leaves me with the impression that you consider that there is some external sentient force that influences events in your personal favour.

However, I think the point that nogodsforme was driving at is that you were not so much lucky, as it was advantageous that you had access to world-class health care.

Were there an actual interventionist "god", then we would expect to see a model that reflects something other than what we encounter in practice.

The reality is that this recent turn of events including incidence, detection, treatment, and prognosis fit a statistical model which varies largely according to geography. In your case you had the advantage to live in an area where same-day (ambulatory) surgery is effectively the standard of care. Had you been living in a third-world country, you might not have been so "lucky". Obviously, I am pleased for you that the outcome was, indeed, in your favour.

If the above isn't what you were driving at. Perhaps you could give examples of making your own luck whereby events have clearly been manipulated to your advantage in a way that could only happen through an external agency.

Edited to clarify a term

Regardless of all that it was still chance/luck that I found it when I did.  I was not on a self exam schedule.  My tumor was on the border line of being stage 2.  It was 1.9 cm. Stage 2 starts at 2.0.  That is lucky.  I am lucky to still have my breast.

I am not sure what I have said that made you think what you said in that first paragraph.  That is not something I believe.  Mostly I believe you make your own luck but every now and again random chance comes your way.  For example, I play online poker.  Out of 50 hands I might win 2-3.  Is that luck, I don't think so.  It is a statistical probability.

This is going to be a difficult thread for me because I'm getting the impression some of you believe in luck and some of you don't.  So I think before we continue we should all agree how we define and use the word "luck". For me it is "random chance".   Not something doled out by the Creator.

I believe the descriptive to apply to my definition.  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luck
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline Dante

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #36 on: July 27, 2013, 07:49:12 AM »

My belief in a Creator is not limited to explaining where Love comes from.  Matter of fact that has very little to do with why I believe in God.  First of all I find it hard to comprehend the amount of luck it would take for our planet to end up with so many forms of complex life from an explosion.  Explosions are messy business.  There is also the lack of other planets like ours.  If it was that easy there should be planets like ours all over.

Like, maybe, only 60 billion in our galaxy alone?[1] And there are hundreds of billions of galaxies in out universe.[2] Still feeling special, JB?

Quote
2nd if humans came from water not dirt then we should be natural swimmers.  Most of us have to "learn" to swim and our bodies have more elements of dirt than water, could be wrong here, I'm sure you'll let me know. :).  There is also the fact that not all creatures evolved into the same thing.  Why remain a fly when you could've evolved into a human or lion, etc.  We have flies because we need flies.  We need all our different life forms.  We all have a "purpose".

See William's respponse to this in your other thread. This all goes back to your "feelings". It's your perception, but it isn't the truth. 


Quote
Then there is my spirit.  I feel my spirit and it feels eternal unlike this flesh I wear.  It's the "real" me. 

There's those feelings again, of which the truth gives not a shit.

Quote
These are my main points of belief in a Creator.  I very well believe that there was an Intelligence involved in our making.  No magic necessary, intelligence yes.  Love yes.  I believe Love and hate comes from us.  We are capable of both because we have freewill.  We are not forced to love it is a choice.

So, if there was no magic necessary, your creator used what? Science? Love? A big bowl of strawberry Jello?

 1. http://blogs.voanews.com/science-world/2013/07/02/60-billion-earth-like-planets-could-exist-in-milky-way-galaxy/
 2. http://imagine.gsfc.nasa.gov/docs/ask_astro/answers/021127a.html
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline junebug72

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #37 on: July 27, 2013, 08:06:28 AM »
I am hard wired to believe in something.  I honestly believe I can not help it.  I feel it in my guts if you know what I mean.  When I reason this is where I end up.  Belief in something more powerful than humans.  That loves us and wants what is best but will not control us.
If the only harm that ever came to us was as a direct result of a specific choice we made, then your "god that loves us and wants what is best but will not control us" would make sense. In a world fraught with deadly earthquakes, tsunamis, tornadoes, droughts, etc., your conclusion is baseless.

When I reason, this is where I end up.

These natural events shape and nourish the planet.  We can build homes that are more capable of withstanding natural disasters but we'd have to give up on extreme greed so we can all have this.  See that's another reason I will not completely abandon Creation.  The evolutionary theory implies that we are naturally wired to preserve our own species but yet there are many many folks out there who only care about themselves.  They will not do what's best for their species.  If that were the case we would not even have hate, murder, rape or poverty.

Dante,

Your post makes no sense at all.  First of all yes I feel special because my human specialist say I should.  We are all special.  There is no proof of a planet like ours any where else.  Your statement proves my point.  Yes there are other planets but there is no proof of life on them.  My first two paragraphs are a result of reasoning not feelings.  When I say I feel my spirit I mean I literally feel my spirit.  It is not an emotion.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline bertatberts

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #38 on: July 27, 2013, 08:36:52 AM »
Quote from: Junebug72
There is no proof of a planet like ours any where else.
Maybe so at the moment, however the probability that one does is enormous, given the diversity of life on this planet, and the fact that the light/signals we receive from far off galaxies are so old.
 
Maybe in the future we will be sure. However until then we cant throw the baby out with the bathwater.
The fact we exist, proves life is possible elsewhere.

Whereas with a god we can have no comparison, thus both baby and water can be discarded. So evoking a god to explain your imbecilic notions is nonsensical.
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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #39 on: July 27, 2013, 09:01:21 AM »

These natural events shape and nourish the planet.  We can build homes that are more capable of withstanding natural disasters but we'd have to give up on extreme greed so we can all have this.  See that's another reason I will not completely abandon Creation. The evolutionary theory implies that we are naturally wired to preserve our own species but yet there are many many folks out there who only care about themselves.  They will not do what's best for their species.  If that were the case we would not even have hate, murder, rape or poverty.

Dante,

Your post makes no sense at all. First of all yes I feel special because my human specialist say I should.  We are all special.  There is no proof of a planet like ours any where else.  Your statement proves my point.  Yes there are other planets but there is no proof of life on them.  My first two paragraphs are a result of reasoning not feelings.  When I say I feel my spirit I mean I literally feel my spirit.  It is not an emotion.

My bold.

You probably don't see the irony in this JB, but it is there.

People who kill or otherwise harm other people often to it because they think that they themselves are special. And that others are less special. Or more likely, not special at all.

Such people have nothing to offer the world but their ego. Which is useless.

It is fine to say that we as individuals should value ourselves, and value others. But the word "special" carries way too much baggage and implies an importance that is artificial and harmful.

And nothing in evolutionary theory says that we are wired to preserve our species (we are wired to preserve our kin and our group, but not everyone). If we were big on such things, those of us who feel special wouldn't be so busy offing those who we consider irrelevant in comparison. You can't solve everything by making the entire populace obnoxious.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline junebug72

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #40 on: July 27, 2013, 09:04:09 AM »
Quote from: Junebug72
There is no proof of a planet like ours any where else.
Maybe so at the moment, however the probability that one does is enormous, given the diversity of life on this planet, and the fact that the light/signals we receive from far off galaxies are so old.
 
Maybe in the future we will be sure. However until then we cant throw the baby out with the bathwater.
The fact we exist, proves life is possible elsewhere.

Whereas with a god we can have no comparison, thus both baby and water can be discarded. So evoking a god to explain your imbecilic notions is nonsensical.

I am not an imbecile.  That was unnecessarily cruel.  Especially as you admit there is no proof yet.  If a believer had posted something like this y'all be like cop out or good dodge. 

I would never discard a baby, that's just sick man.  Where does this strange figure of speech come from and what does it mean?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #41 on: July 27, 2013, 09:13:43 AM »

My bold.

You probably don't see the irony in this JB, but it is there.

People who kill or otherwise harm other people often to it because they think that they themselves are special. And that others are less special. Or more likely, not special at all.

Such people have nothing to offer the world but their ego. Which is useless.

It is fine to say that we as individuals should value ourselves, and value others. But the word "special" carries way too much baggage and implies an importance that is artificial and harmful.

And nothing in evolutionary theory says that we are wired to preserve our species (we are wired to preserve our kin and our group, but not everyone). If we were big on such things, those of us who feel special wouldn't be so busy offing those who we consider irrelevant in comparison. You can't solve everything by making the entire populace obnoxious.

Good come back P. Places.  Just a warning though careful with the grammar.  It could change your Karma.  If you want to know what I'm talking about check out the smite I got from Nam.  He smited me for using she instead of he.  It's the ...Disgrace to God thread.

I won't be smiting you for it because I could care less.  I actually realized my mistake when I read screw's reply. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #42 on: July 27, 2013, 09:30:32 AM »
I won't be smiting you for it because I could care less.  I actually realized my mistake when I read screw's reply.

I could use some bad karma. Otherwise I might start thinking I'm special.  :)
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline junebug72

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #43 on: July 27, 2013, 09:43:35 AM »
I won't be smiting you for it because I could care less.  I actually realized my mistake when I read screw's reply.

I could use some bad karma. Otherwise I might start thinking I'm special.  :)

I'm not going to be the one that changes it. ;)
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline bertatberts

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #44 on: July 27, 2013, 09:56:15 AM »
I am not an imbecile.
I did not say you were, I said you idea about a god was imbecilic. Huge difference. We have and can all say stupid things or believe stupid things. After all the world is four fifths full of religious people, that all believe differently, would you say that there beliefs are sensible?
If a believer had posted something like this y'all be like cop out or good dodge.
Only if it wasn't even probable, But life on other planets is most definitely probable. Whereas a god existing isn't.

I would never discard a baby, that's just sick man.  Where does this strange figure of speech come from and what does it mean?
A step to far on your part. It is a just figure of speech and as such has no real meaning.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 09:59:59 AM by bertatberts »
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline junebug72

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #45 on: July 27, 2013, 09:58:20 AM »
It was George R. Price  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_R._Price

This would make more sense if I'd posted it in the right place.  I can't find the post attached to this correction.  Guess I'll go check my posts. 

Sorry
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #46 on: July 27, 2013, 10:16:09 AM »
I am not an imbecile.
I did not say you were, I said you idea about a god was imbecilic. Huge difference.
If a believer had posted something like this y'all be like cop out or good dodge.
Only if it wasn't even probable, But life on other planets is most definitely probable. Whereas a god existing isn't.

I would never discard a baby, that's just sick man.  Where does this strange figure of speech come from and what does it mean?
A step to far on your part. It is a just figure of speech and as such has no real meaning.

Why a step too far I was just asking a question?  I am not familiar with the phrase.  So it was hard to understand your point.

Only an imbecile has imbecilic ideas.  Any way I'm glad you did not mean it as an insult. Thanks :)

Just because something is probable doesn't make it so.  It ain't so until we "know" it's so.  Until we figure out how to travel at the speed of light there ain't gonna be proof.  Be careful what you wish for they may not like earthlings. ;)  Also, it's so far into the future it will not affect us at all.  Scientist I've heard from say it is not possible for an organism to travel at the speed of light. Just saying.  So far our telescopes have revealed no life on any other planet. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline bertatberts

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #47 on: July 27, 2013, 10:38:54 AM »
Just because something is probable doesn't make it so.
But it is a huge step to say it isn't probable, given we already have a planet with life on it. If there were no life in the universe then we could say the probability of life is zero, which isn't the case is it.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #48 on: July 27, 2013, 10:53:58 AM »

My belief in a Creator is not limited to explaining where Love comes from.  Matter of fact that has very little to do with why I believe in God.  First of all I find it hard to comprehend the amount of luck it would take for our planet to end up with so many forms of complex life from an explosion.  Explosions are messy business.  There is also the lack of other planets like ours.  If it was that easy there should be planets like ours all over.

2nd if humans came from water not dirt then we should be natural swimmers.  Most of us have to "learn" to swim and our bodies have more elements of dirt than water, could be wrong here, I'm sure you'll let me know. :).  There is also the fact that not all creatures evolved into the same thing.  Why remain a fly when you could've evolved into a human or lion, etc.  We have flies because we need flies.  We need all our different life forms.  We all have a "purpose".

Then there is my spirit.  I feel my spirit and it feels eternal unlike this flesh I wear.  It's the "real" me. 

These are my main points of belief in a Creator.  I very well believe that there was an Intelligence involved in our making.  No magic necessary, intelligence yes.  Love yes.  I believe Love and hate comes from us.  We are capable of both because we have freewill.  We are not forced to love it is a choice.

You do realize that this "reasoning" you have attempted to provide is logically fallacious (filled with fallacies), don't you?

1. First you say, "I find it hard to comprehend the amount of luck..." STOP! You've just presented the Argument from Ignorance/Incredulity fallacy. So there's STRIKE ONE. Please don't use that argument again. It fails miserably. Just because you personally find it "hard to comprehend" something doesn't in any way effect whether or not it is true.

2. You say we should be good swimmers because humans came from water, not dirt? Did you really just make this argument? I can hardly believe my ears. This argument speaks loudly and clearly to the fact that you are ignorant as to what evolution teaches, aren't you? Have you taken any evolutionary biology courses (such as Biological Anthropology)?? This argument is just simply 100% wrong. Human beings did not evolve in water. We have a common ancestor with creatures that did but those things are entirely separate. We have an ape-like common ancestor, which we share with chimpanzees, and those animals have common ancestors with other creatures prior to them. You should really go take a basic college course and learn. Btw, this is also another Argument from Ignorance/Incredulity fallacy - STRIKE TWO.

3. Your argument from teleology (purpose) - pointing to flies (really?) - is another argument based in your basic ignorance of science, and specifically evolutionary biology. Do you understand the mechanism of evolution? Heck, do you even have a basic understanding of what evolution teaches, how it works, and what it's evidence is? Your argument that "We all have a purpose" is misleading. Didn't you mean to argue that you think we all have a "purpose" which came from the god you think created us? This is called the Teleological Argument for God and it is logically flawed as well, but let's set this aside b/c it's a long debate.

4. The argument from "feeling your spirit" (the logical fallacy of Appeal to Emotion) is beyond absurd. "I can feel it in my balls that we have no spirit!" How's that for an argument? Does it convince you? Feelings, emotions, and psychological leanings (like the one you are promoting based in your youth, culture, and influenced upbringing) need to be put in check by reason and evidence b/c feelings are often wrong. This is how con-artist fast talking salesmen get people to buy crummy products so they can take your money and run. Ever hear of Derren Brown (the illusionist)? Look him up on YouTube. People convince themselves of wrong beliefs all the time. What you keep coming back to is a reliance upon subjective, solely personal, emotion/experience for fact finding - and that is a very bad and unreliable method for separating fact from fiction. This is why we have demonstrable science, which trumps your personal feelings (sorry to break the news) - STRIKE THREE! 

So the reasons you have provided for believing in a "creator" deity are logically fallacious (i.e. - invalid aka - BAD reasons). As such, it is in your best interest to stop using these arguments, get honest, and get educated.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline junebug72

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #49 on: July 27, 2013, 11:16:35 AM »

My belief in a Creator is not limited to explaining where Love comes from.  Matter of fact that has very little to do with why I believe in God.  First of all I find it hard to comprehend the amount of luck it would take for our planet to end up with so many forms of complex life from an explosion.  Explosions are messy business.  There is also the lack of other planets like ours.  If it was that easy there should be planets like ours all over.

2nd if humans came from water not dirt then we should be natural swimmers.  Most of us have to "learn" to swim and our bodies have more elements of dirt than water, could be wrong here, I'm sure you'll let me know. :).  There is also the fact that not all creatures evolved into the same thing.  Why remain a fly when you could've evolved into a human or lion, etc.  We have flies because we need flies.  We need all our different life forms.  We all have a "purpose".

Then there is my spirit.  I feel my spirit and it feels eternal unlike this flesh I wear.  It's the "real" me. 

These are my main points of belief in a Creator.  I very well believe that there was an Intelligence involved in our making.  No magic necessary, intelligence yes.  Love yes.  I believe Love and hate comes from us.  We are capable of both because we have freewill.  We are not forced to love it is a choice.

You do realize that this "reasoning" you have attempted to provide is logically fallacious (filled with fallacies), don't you?

1. First you say, "I find it hard to comprehend the amount of luck..." STOP! You've just presented the Argument from Ignorance/Incredulity fallacy. So there's STRIKE ONE. Please don't use that argument again. It fails miserably. Just because you personally find it "hard to comprehend" something doesn't in any way effect whether or not it is true.

2. You say we should be good swimmers because humans came from water, not dirt? Did you really just make this argument? I can hardly believe my ears. This argument speaks loudly and clearly to the fact that you are ignorant as to what evolution teaches, aren't you? Have you taken any evolutionary biology courses (such as Biological Anthropology)?? This argument is just simply 100% wrong. Human beings did not evolve in water. We have a common ancestor with creatures that did but those things are entirely separate. We have an ape-like common ancestor, which we share with chimpanzees, and those animals have common ancestors with other creatures prior to them. You should really go take a basic college course and learn. Btw, this is also another Argument from Ignorance/Incredulity fallacy - STRIKE TWO.

3. Your argument from teleology (purpose) - pointing to flies (really?) - is another argument based in your basic ignorance of science, and specifically evolutionary biology. Do you understand the mechanism of evolution? Heck, do you even have a basic understanding of what evolution teaches, how it works, and what it's evidence is? Your argument that "We all have a purpose" is misleading. Didn't you mean to argue that you think we all have a "purpose" which came from the god you think created us? This is called the Teleological Argument for God and it is logically flawed as well, but let's set this aside b/c it's a long debate.

4. The argument from "feeling your spirit" (the logical fallacy of Appeal to Emotion) is beyond absurd. "I can feel it in my balls that we have no spirit!" How's that for an argument? Does it convince you? Feelings, emotions, and psychological leanings (like the one you are promoting based in your youth, culture, and influenced upbringing) need to be put in check by reason and evidence b/c feelings are often wrong. This is how con-artist fast talking salesmen get people to buy crummy products so they can take your money and run. Ever hear of Derren Brown (the illusionist)? Look him up on YouTube. People convince themselves of wrong beliefs all the time. What you keep coming back to is a reliance upon subjective, solely personal, emotion/experience for fact finding - and that is a very bad and unreliable method for separating fact from fiction. This is why we have demonstrable science, which trumps your personal feelings (sorry to break the news) - STRIKE THREE! 

So the reasons you have provided for believing in a "creator" deity are logically fallacious (i.e. - invalid aka - BAD reasons). As such, it is in your best interest to stop using these arguments, get honest, and get educated.

You sound very intelligent here Median but there are flaws in your argument as well.  I should be well schooled in evolution by now participating on this forum with all the experts on the subject.  You buy right into it because you don't want there to be a God or a Creator.  I do.  So yes I will question what I know to be so about Evolution.  I don't have the time to take a biology class to learn this stuff nor the desire to do so.  I catch as much as I can on the Science channel and that's as far as I'm willing to go.  I am also very open to anything on the subject you wish to share.

If you want me to believe it I have to comprehend it.

Every version of evolution I have encountered says all life began in the ocean.  Decided to grow legs and eventually headed for land.  Is this true or false?  If true then my question about the process is very legitimate.

Yes I have a basic idea of the theory.  For me to just accept what other people say is exactly what you condemn people for on this sight.  Accepting things w/o asking questions.  I won't do that for religion and I won't do it for science.

When I say I feel my spirit, I mean I literally feel it in there.  It is not an emotion.  I physically feel my spirit. A gentleman doesn't talk about his balls.

So if this were a ballgame you'd be the worse ref ever.


Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline DumpsterFire

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #50 on: July 27, 2013, 11:30:01 AM »
These natural events shape and nourish the planet.  We can build homes that are more capable of withstanding natural disasters but we'd have to give up on extreme greed so we can all have this.  See that's another reason I will not completely abandon Creation.
If the only way to "shape and nourish" the planet is via some sort of violent geological upheaval or some other condition potentially harmful to life[1], why won't god at least ensure the safety of those in the affected area before he begins? A benevolent god would not cause such random suffering, one would think. Babies killed by natural disasters = proof that a loving god who wants what is best does not exist, as far as I'm concerned.
 1. how exactly does a drought nourish anything?
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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #51 on: July 27, 2013, 11:41:48 AM »
Every version of evolution I have encountered says all life began in the ocean.  Decided to grow legs and eventually headed for land.  Is this true or false?

False.

You do, though, seem to be thoroughly acquainted with the typical strawman arguments as put forward by creationists who so favor the argument from incredulity as referenced by Median above.
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline junebug72

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #52 on: July 27, 2013, 11:47:29 AM »
These natural events shape and nourish the planet.  We can build homes that are more capable of withstanding natural disasters but we'd have to give up on extreme greed so we can all have this.  See that's another reason I will not completely abandon Creation.
If the only way to "shape and nourish" the planet is via some sort of violent geological upheaval or some other condition potentially harmful to life[1], why won't god at least ensure the safety of those in the affected area before he begins? A benevolent god would not cause such random suffering, one would think. Babies killed by natural disasters = proof that a loving god who wants what is best does not exist, as far as I'm concerned.
 1. how exactly does a drought nourish anything?

What is best for us is to learn how to live in these environments.  To make sure we all can afford weather proof homes. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #53 on: July 27, 2013, 12:06:41 PM »
Every version of evolution I have encountered says all life began in the ocean.  Decided to grow legs and eventually headed for land.  Is this true or false?

False.

You do, though, seem to be thoroughly acquainted with the typical strawman arguments as put forward by creationists who so favor the argument from incredulity as referenced by Median above.

X I think you should contact the Science Channel and let them know their programming is false.  I remember the illustrations distinctly of the organisms growing legs and heading for land.  Forgive me if I just don't take your word for that especially since you left no accurate or "true" statement to refer to.
 
I thought skepticism was a good thing. :o  I wish y'all would make up your minds. 

Looks to me like your trying to twist the facts of evolution to strengthen your argument, to me.

At least provide a link or something. ;)

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #54 on: July 27, 2013, 12:18:46 PM »

X I think you should contact the Science Channel and let them know their programming is false.  I remember the illustrations distinctly of the organisms growing legs and heading for land.  Forgive me if I just don't take your word for that especially since you left no accurate or "true" statement to refer to.
 
I thought skepticism was a good thing. :o  I wish y'all would make up your minds. 

Looks to me like your trying to twist the facts of evolution to strengthen your argument, to me.

At least provide a link or something. ;)

Come on, JB. Where did the science channel tell you that organisms decided to grow legs? I'm beginning to be troubled by your avoiding direct answers, saying you don't have time to do something, then demanding that we educate you at the same time.

Still, you wanted some links. I am delighted to help.

Please watch these from start to finish, then come back and tell us what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL82yk73N8eoX8RpvQfjdupAKFWKjtMhTe

Of course, if you don't have the time or interest to do so, then please stop asking people to prove you wrong - a fallacy in itself.
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
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Offline junebug72

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #55 on: July 27, 2013, 12:51:58 PM »

X I think you should contact the Science Channel and let them know their programming is false.  I remember the illustrations distinctly of the organisms growing legs and heading for land.  Forgive me if I just don't take your word for that especially since you left no accurate or "true" statement to refer to.
 
I thought skepticism was a good thing. :o  I wish y'all would make up your minds. 

Looks to me like your trying to twist the facts of evolution to strengthen your argument, to me.

At least provide a link or something. ;)

Come on, JB. Where did the science channel tell you that organisms decided to grow legs? I'm beginning to be troubled by your avoiding direct answers, saying you don't have time to do something, then demanding that we educate you at the same time.

Still, you wanted some links. I am delighted to help.

Please watch these from start to finish, then come back and tell us what you think.

http://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PL82yk73N8eoX8RpvQfjdupAKFWKjtMhTe

Of course, if you don't have the time or interest to do so, then please stop asking people to prove you wrong - a fallacy in itself.

My bad. I should have said evolved legs and headed for land. 

Sorry I have to be preservative with my data. I should have mentioned that when I asked; my apologies. I get 4 gigs a month and I use it.  Perhaps something I can read?


If being a believer is so detrimental to society then I would think you would jump at the opportunity to educate a believer.  I have shared generously with you.  Through all the snide remarks and insults I'm still sharing. I've answered hundreds if not thousands of questions and I can't ask a question w/o ridicule. I've seen y'all put a very negative spin on believers not willing to learn or listen; then this.


So are you saying that life did not begin in the oceans? 

I just want to add there is a difference between a full time commitment to attend school and watch a video.  Of course I'm willing to spend that amount of time to learn.  Your last comment=unnecessary.
« Last Edit: July 27, 2013, 12:59:05 PM by junebug72 »
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #56 on: July 27, 2013, 01:16:11 PM »
If you live in the western world....how hard can your life be.......in the eastern areas where women are oppressed,you may have something to talk about

This isn't fair. There's tons of difficulty in the western world. Tell the woman who's been raped that she's got nothing to complain about, or who's lost her family, or who has a painful and/or terminal illness, or who can't afford to feed her children.

Tragedy exists everywhere. Just because someone else has a worse tragedy doesn't mean you can trivialize a westerners.
Understood But ever not been able to drive a car,go out in public unescorted,have your clitoris removed.....was talking about how they are treated as third class citizens more than anything
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Offline JeffPT

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Re: God is More Likely than Luck
« Reply #57 on: July 27, 2013, 07:28:38 PM »
You sound very intelligent here Median but there are flaws in your argument as well.  I should be well schooled in evolution by now participating on this forum with all the experts on the subject.  You buy right into it because you don't want there to be a God or a Creator. 

No.  Not even remotely.  We don't buy into the theory because we have a problem with the notion of a creator.  We buy into the theory because it's rock solid.  You just don't understand it well enough yet.  Our desire or lack of desire for a creator has nothing to do with it.  Even if a creator was proven true tomorrow, it wouldn't change how valid the theory of evolution actually is.  Evolution would simply be the mechanism by which the creator moved life forward. 

I am also very open to anything on the subject you wish to share.

I will keep this as simple as possible. 

Imagine there was a farmer and he had 5000 cows on his land.  He wants to breed the biggest cows for their meat.  How would he go about doing that?  It's very simple.  What he would do is get his biggest cows and biggest bulls together and mate them.  Mating big cows gives big baby cows.  In other words, the size of the cow gave it a breeding advantage over the other cows on the farm.  A smaller cow might not be mated and therefore it wouldn't pass it's small cow genes to the next in line.  Over several generations, all the farm would have would be really big cows, right?  In effect, the cows have evolved.  The process by which they did it is called 'artificial selection'.  The farmer selected the traits he wanted.   

The way it happens in nature is that sheer survival is the selection method.  A slightly faster gazelle has a survival advantage over slower gazelles and the slower gazelles die off before they breed.  Before too long, you've got a herd of faster and faster gazelles.  But at the same time, you've got lions who are also getting faster.  A faster lion can catch the faster gazelles.  See how it works? 

Over millions of generations, with small changes each time, you get large differences and different species. 

I hope that starts you on your way. 
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