Author Topic: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?  (Read 19328 times)

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Online bertatberts

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #609 on: January 16, 2014, 11:37:29 AM »
Lots of folks are hearing these vibrations, it appears.  Who knew?
Probably all suffering from some form of Tinnitus, New York isn't the quietest of places. And tripping don't help either.
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

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Online jdawg70

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #610 on: January 16, 2014, 11:40:48 AM »
Good catch, screwtape.  I wasn't thinking about that.

Honestly, I don't know why anyone would be inclined to trust someone who admitted to being drugged when he came up with this stuff.
Someone who's read a lot from Timothy Leary may be so inclined.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Nam

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #611 on: January 16, 2014, 12:16:32 PM »
Good catch, screwtape.  I wasn't thinking about that.

Honestly, I don't know why anyone would be inclined to trust someone who admitted to being drugged when he came up with this stuff.
Someone who's read a lot from Timothy Leary may be so inclined.

I was thinking Denis Leary....my bad.

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Offline median

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #612 on: January 16, 2014, 04:09:37 PM »
I would happy if those we are trying to wake up were more like apologists online and NOT like these people:



"GET THE BY-BILL SKEETER! WE'RE HEADED DOWNTOWN TO PROTEST CAUSE EVOLUTION IS JUST A THEORY!"
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #613 on: January 16, 2014, 06:24:46 PM »

He is gone?  Oh my.  But I think I FOUND HIM.  It is either him or his soulmate.  And he is talking about vibrating atoms and listening to the sounds of universe.  Which sounds a whole hell of a lot like frequencies to me. 



"I lived in a cave for 6 months in the Canary Islands. I was tripping acid on a rock outside the cave when I realized that everything makes the exact same sound. We're all made of atoms, and atoms vibrate, and so everything in the Universe is tied together by the sound of that vibration."

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Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #614 on: January 16, 2014, 11:14:32 PM »
This "frequency" thing should be easy enough to explain......find the frequency....match the frequency with a frequency generator test the results on the original frequency emitting object.......to match frequencies would it destroy the object? hmmmmmm?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline Spinner198

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #615 on: January 17, 2014, 06:05:25 AM »
If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.
The problem isn't that there God isn't clearly there. It's that we are blinded by corruption, aka: sin. It's not the fault of what we are trying to observe, it is our perspective, our pre-suppositions and our faulty vision that makes it so difficult to see.

The reason there are endless arguments is because it is mostly clear to some, and then extremely hazy for others to the point where they 'see' a different picture entirely.

Besides, atheists are given what Christians believe to be the truth all the time, it is everywhere. Bibles are scattered across the nation available to anybody who wants one. The information is there, and if the information is true and correct, if God really is perfect how he says, then the only possible explanation for non-belief would be the corrupted vision of those who don't believe. If God is real and tells the truth, then truly the entire fault lies within the non-believer.

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #616 on: January 17, 2014, 06:07:13 AM »
The problem isn't that there God isn't clearly there. It's that we are blinded by corruption, aka: sin.
<snip>

Isn't it amazing that, in spite of us being blinded by corruption/sin, you still manage to find DA LAWD?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #617 on: January 17, 2014, 06:13:33 AM »
Besides, atheists are given what Christians believe to be the truth all the time, it is everywhere. Bibles are scattered across the nation available to anybody who wants one. The information is there, and if the information is true and correct, if God really is perfect how he says, then the only possible explanation for non-belief would be the corrupted vision of those who don't believe. If God is real and tells the truth, then truly the entire fault lies within the non-believer.

If you are suggesting atheists' visions are corrupted, I must disagree, that would be supernatural.

If you are suggesting that god cannot be perfect (and thus the Abrahamic gods must be false) because atheists do not believe, then i can agree to an extent.

 
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #618 on: January 17, 2014, 06:16:19 AM »

It's not the fault of what we are trying to observe, it is our perspective, our pre-suppositions and our faulty vision that makes it so difficult to see.
Who pre-supposes that there is a god of some sort?[...]
Quote
If God is real and tells the truth, then truly the entire fault lies within the non-believer.
And if God is real, the believer has been wasting his and everyone else's time by not addressing real issues. Rather they have been having a one-sided conversation with an imaginary being in the hopes that said imaginary being will actually do something,
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline Spinner198

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #619 on: January 17, 2014, 06:22:08 AM »
The problem isn't that there God isn't clearly there. It's that we are blinded by corruption, aka: sin.
<snip>

Isn't it amazing that, in spite of us being blinded by corruption/sin, you still manage to find DA LAWD?
I think the difference would be looking with sincerity for DA LAWD instead of with sarcasm.

Besides, atheists are given what Christians believe to be the truth all the time, it is everywhere. Bibles are scattered across the nation available to anybody who wants one. The information is there, and if the information is true and correct, if God really is perfect how he says, then the only possible explanation for non-belief would be the corrupted vision of those who don't believe. If God is real and tells the truth, then truly the entire fault lies within the non-believer.

If you are suggesting atheists' visions are corrupted, I must disagree, that would be supernatural.

If you are suggesting that god cannot be perfect (and thus the Abrahamic gods must be false) because atheists do not believe, then i can agree to an extent.
How would sin be supernatural?


It's not the fault of what we are trying to observe, it is our perspective, our pre-suppositions and our faulty vision that makes it so difficult to see.
Who pre-supposes that there is a god of some sort?[...]
Quote
If God is real and tells the truth, then truly the entire fault lies within the non-believer.
And if God is real, the believer has been wasting his and everyone else's time by not addressing real issues. Rather they have been having a one-sided conversation with an imaginary being in the hopes that said imaginary being will actually do something,
You argue that a pre-supposition towards the truth would cause just as much haziness when observing non-truth? I also don't understand your second statement: "If God is real, then he is imaginary."
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 06:24:48 AM by Spinner198 »

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #620 on: January 17, 2014, 06:24:34 AM »
I think the difference would be looking with sincerity for DA LAWD instead of with sarcasm.

Wow. I've never heard that one before.
You just said we were blinded by corruption/sin. Blinded means "unable to see". If we're unable to see, how did you find anything? Or are you the reincarnation of Jesus, born without sin?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #621 on: January 17, 2014, 06:27:12 AM »
How would sin be supernatural?

There is not a single shred of evidence showing that this "sin" is natural, thus it must be supernatural.
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Offline Spinner198

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #622 on: January 17, 2014, 06:28:08 AM »
I think the difference would be looking with sincerity for DA LAWD instead of with sarcasm.

Wow. I've never heard that one before.
You just said we were blinded by corruption/sin. Blinded means "unable to see". If we're unable to see, how did you find anything? Or are you the reincarnation of Jesus, born without sin?
If you cling to exactly what it is that is preventing you from 'seeing' then it won't go away. If a willing ignorance of God is what you want, then you won't easily get rid of it. While sin is what is preventive you from seeing "a willing ignorance of God" that doesn't mean that having other sins in your life would be just as blinding.

How would sin be supernatural?

There is not a single shred of evidence showing that this "sin" is natural, thus it must be supernatural.
Humans are natural.
Humans can sin (and do so on a regular basis).
Therefore the act of sinning is natural.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #623 on: January 17, 2014, 06:28:17 AM »
Wow. I've never heard that one before.
You just said we were blinded by corruption/sin. Blinded means "unable to see". If we're unable to see, how did you find anything? Or are you the reincarnation of Jesus, born without sin?

To make matters worse, if atheists are "blind" and everyone is born atheist.

How is ANYONE a theist?
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Offline Spinner198

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #624 on: January 17, 2014, 06:30:40 AM »
Wow. I've never heard that one before.
You just said we were blinded by corruption/sin. Blinded means "unable to see". If we're unable to see, how did you find anything? Or are you the reincarnation of Jesus, born without sin?

To make matters worse, if atheists are "blind" and everyone is born atheist.

How is ANYONE a theist?
The words "blind" and "blinded" can hold two different meanings, albeit somewhat similar.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #625 on: January 17, 2014, 06:34:25 AM »
The words "blind" and "blinded" can hold two different meanings, albeit somewhat similar.

Well yes, but remember, everyone is born without ANY knowledge of a deity.

Only through other people, and physical items can such knowledge be obtained.

So why is this god incapable of informing people?
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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #626 on: January 17, 2014, 06:37:03 AM »
If you cling to exactly what it is that is preventing you from 'seeing' then it won't go away. If a willing ignorance of God is what you want, then you won't easily get rid of it. While sin is what is preventive you from seeing "a willing ignorance of God" that doesn't mean that having other sins in your life would be just as blinding.

So we're not blinded? Make up your mind!

Humans are natural.
Humans can sin (and do so on a regular basis).
Therefore the act of sinning is natural.

Your god is supernatural.
Humans are natural.
Therefore humans cannot interact with your god.
Quod erat demonstrandum.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline Spinner198

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #627 on: January 17, 2014, 06:39:34 AM »
The words "blind" and "blinded" can hold two different meanings, albeit somewhat similar.

Well yes, but remember, everyone is born without ANY knowledge of a deity.

Only through other people, and physical items can such knowledge be obtained.

So why is this god incapable of informing people?
Those are quite a few assumptions you are making there. Would you accept anything short of a divine intervention (angels appearing, trip to heaven, etc.) in order to believe?

If you cling to exactly what it is that is preventing you from 'seeing' then it won't go away. If a willing ignorance of God is what you want, then you won't easily get rid of it. While sin is what is preventive you from seeing "a willing ignorance of God" that doesn't mean that having other sins in your life would be just as blinding.

So we're not blinded? Make up your mind!

Humans are natural.
Humans can sin (and do so on a regular basis).
Therefore the act of sinning is natural.

Your god is supernatural.
Humans are natural.
Therefore humans cannot interact with your god.
Quod erat demonstrandum.
No, I said we are blinded, not inherently fully blind. It is like the difference between being temporarily blinded by a flash of light and being born without the ability to see.

God is supernatural.
Humans are natural.
Therefore humans cannot interact with God.
Therefore God can interact with humans.
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 06:41:51 AM by Spinner198 »

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #628 on: January 17, 2014, 06:41:01 AM »
Humans are natural.
I believe Humans can sin (and do so on a regular basis).
Therefore I believe the act of sinning is natural.

See how i fixed that for you?

Those are quite a few assumptions you are making there. Would you accept anything short of a divine intervention (angels appearing, trip to heaven, etc.) in order to believe?

I stated facts, not assumptions.
Anything short of a supernatural experience would be a natural experience, which would not indicate a god.

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Offline Spinner198

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #629 on: January 17, 2014, 06:46:16 AM »
Humans are natural.
I believe Humans can sin (and do so on a regular basis).
Therefore I believe the act of sinning is natural.

See how i fixed that for you?

Those are quite a few assumptions you are making there. Would you accept anything short of a divine intervention (angels appearing, trip to heaven, etc.) in order to believe?

I stated facts, not assumptions.
Anything short of a supernatural experience would be a natural experience, which would not indicate a god.
So its your beliefs versus mine? Which of the two of us do you think has a better knowledge of this particular area of theology so as to make claims about it? Even just in theory?

You also seem to be taking the opposite liberties, saying that what I say are merely beliefs, but what you say are facts, even though both are non-scientific and can't be systematically proven/disproved.

I recommend you look at this topic from a perspective other than one that is founded on "God is not real." as this discussion about God won't get anywhere if you don't.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #630 on: January 17, 2014, 06:51:17 AM »
You also seem to be taking the opposite liberties, saying that what I say are merely beliefs, but what you say are facts, even though both are non-scientific and can't be systematically proven/disproved.

It is scientific fact that no single human is born with innate knowledge of a deity.
Human beings are born with very limited innate knowledge (basic things like "food= good, scary thing= not good)

I recommend you look at this topic from a perspective other than one that is founded on "God is not real." as this discussion about God won't get anywhere if you don't.

The only other perspective would be "god is real" which is just as fictional as "Darth Vader is real".

So its your beliefs versus mine? Which of the two of us do you think has a better knowledge of this particular area of theology so as to make claims about it? Even just in theory?

There is no theory of a deity, so neither of us have better knowledge when it comes to deities.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #631 on: January 17, 2014, 07:17:48 AM »
Besides, atheists are given what Christians believe to be the truth all the time, it is everywhere. Bibles are scattered across the nation available to anybody who wants one. The information is there, and if the information is true and correct.

If we were talking in Iraq, you would be saying the exact same thing about the Koran.  Do you have any evidence that your book is the correct one?  How do you evaluate that the information in your particualr holy book is "true and correct"?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #632 on: January 17, 2014, 10:51:25 AM »
So its your beliefs versus mine? Which of the two of us do you think has a better knowledge of this particular area of theology so as to make claims about it? Even just in theory?

Not necessarily.  Unfortunately whichever one of you knows more about theology wont prove that the theology is right or wrong.  One person could know more about "Star wars" than another won't prove that "Star wars" actually happened.  The same is true about non-fiction.  Evidence is the only thing that can prove whether something is true or not.

You also seem to be taking the opposite liberties, saying that what I say are merely beliefs, but what you say are facts, even though both are non-scientific and can't be systematically proven/disproved.

I recommend you look at this topic from a perspective other than one that is founded on "God is not real." as this discussion about God won't get anywhere if you don't.

What about the perspective that the existence of God is very unlikely based on lack of evidence showing that God does in fact exist?
"Shut him up! We have a lot invested in this ride - SHUT HIM UP! Look at my furrows of worry! Look at my big bank account, and my family! This just HAS to be real!" - Bill Hicks

Offline median

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #633 on: January 17, 2014, 11:44:26 AM »
So its your beliefs versus mine? Which of the two of us do you think has a better knowledge of this particular area of theology so as to make claims about it? Even just in theory?

You also seem to be taking the opposite liberties, saying that what I say are merely beliefs, but what you say are facts, even though both are non-scientific and can't be systematically proven/disproved.

I recommend you look at this topic from a perspective other than one that is founded on "God is not real." as this discussion about God won't get anywhere if you don't.

This is like asking: "Which of the two of us do you think has a better knowledge of this particular fairy tale?" Theology is inherently slippery b/c any gullible religionist can just assume their superstition is real and then go about trying to fit anything they find into that mold. But that accomplishes nothing but a perpetuation of the superstition - like a child on the playground screaming, "I think Spiderman is invincible!" and another responding, "No he's not! Neener, neener, neener!"

Merely claiming 'knowledge' of a belief system doesn't do anything to further the discussion regarding that belief systems veracity or falsification. In response to your last comment, I recommend you look at this topic from a perspective other than one that is founded on "The bible is the word of God no matter what."

Here is a question for your direct response: Did you start believing the bible was the "Word of God" before critical investigation? Remember: Jesus is watching your answer.
 
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #634 on: January 17, 2014, 12:19:07 PM »
It is obvious that this contest cannot be decided by our knowledge of the Force theology ... but by our skills with a lightsaber.

That's the problem with religious debates.  You have no way to settle disputes without violence.  That is because unlike science, you cannot go observe and compare which explanation best matches reality.  That is also why the religious despise science like Dracula hates garlic.  Because it means someone can rather easily settle what is what.  And they just hate admitting they are wrong.  Everyone does. 

edit:
http://img2-3.timeinc.net/ew/dynamic/imgs/081002/attack-yoda-lightsaber_l.jpg

edit: can --> cannot.  duh!
« Last Edit: January 17, 2014, 12:29:56 PM by screwtape »
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #635 on: January 17, 2014, 12:35:18 PM »

God is supernatural.
Humans are natural.
Therefore humans cannot interact with God.
Therefore God can interact with humans.
This is just spouting the first thing that comes to your mind. You are inventing things that "supernatural being" can and cannot do. You have absolutely no evidence for what you are say, yet you will try and convince us that you have. You will do that by quoting the rules on "supernatural being" ... that you will invent.

The supernatural is nothing more than what we do not understand and wrongly attribute to to magic. Once we know how something that, until then, has been said to be "supernatural", it then becomes "natural."

A: "Last night, that bottle was on that shelf, but now it is on the floor broken! Goblins did it!"
B: "Don't you think it is more likely the cat did it?"
A: "..." [Note that at this point, the supernatural has again been shown to be the wrong conclusion drawn from an observation.]



Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #636 on: January 17, 2014, 03:44:13 PM »
A: "Last night, that bottle was on that shelf, but now it is on the floor broken! Goblins did it!"
B: "Don't you think it is more likely the cat did it?"
A: "..." [Note that at this point, the supernatural has again been shown to be the wrong conclusion drawn from an observation.]

You can't prove goblins didn't do it!  Until you prove they didn't, then you're wrong and I am right because since I believe goblins exist there is a chance that I'm right.

(/theist mode)
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #637 on: January 17, 2014, 04:15:05 PM »
I think the difference would be looking with sincerity for DA LAWD instead of with sarcasm.


Ahh the sincerity card, we NEVER seen that before  &)

Are you looking for the Volcano god Ugabuga with sincerity? Goblins? Because you don't see them that means you aren't sincere.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.