Author Topic: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?  (Read 19082 times)

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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #232 on: January 12, 2014, 02:27:46 AM »


This is certainly true. Biblical prophecy coming true today should be all the proof atheists need.

Yes a specific fulfilled prophesy after the development of scientific method would help your(the theist) case. A documented miracle with unambiguous evidence would also certainly help.

Except none exist. I don't know why theists continue to argue this one. None exist. How more plain could it be?


Biblical Prophesies? Lets look at some as listed on RationalWiki:

*Destruction of Tyre

For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water. And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. [2]


In this block of text God states quite blatantly that Nebuchadnezzar would sack and destroy completely the city of Tyre. However the events given in this passage never did come to pass. After a 13 year siege Nebuchadnezzar withdrew his forces. Despite being conquered and razed (torn down) by Alexander the Great 240 years later, [3] Tyre still exists. [4]


*Destruction of Egypt

Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring a sword upon thee, and cut off man and beast out of thee. And the land of Egypt shall be desolate and waste; and they shall know that I am the LORD: because he hath said, The river is mine, and I have made it. Behold, therefore I am against thee, and against thy rivers, and I will make the land of Egypt utterly waste and desolate, from the tower of Syene even unto the border of Ethiopia. No foot of man shall pass through it, nor foot of beast shall pass through it, neither shall it be inhabited forty years. And I will make the land of Egypt desolate in the midst of the countries that are desolate, and her cities among the cities that are laid waste shall be desolate forty years: and I will scatter the Egyptians among the nations, and will disperse them through the countries.[5]
This passage is one of the most erroneous in the entire Bible. Egypt has never been a desolate waste, there has never been a time when people have not walked through it, there has never been a period of forty years when Egypt was uninhabited, and it has never been surrounded by other desolate countries.[6]

In Ezekiel 30:10-11 he further predicts that Nebuchadnezzar will destroy Egypt:

This is what the Sovereign LORD says: I will put an end to the hordes of Egypt by the hand of Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. He and his army—the most ruthless of nations— will be brought in to destroy the land. They will draw their swords against Egypt and fill the land with the slain. (NIV)
However, Nebuchadnezzar was defeated in his only attempt to invade Egypt.[7]

*Nile will dry up

Yep, still thereEzekiel 30:12 continues with a prediction that the Nile River will run dry.

I will dry up the streams of the Nile and sell the land to evil men; by the hand of foreigners I will lay waste the land and everything in it. I the LORD have spoken. (NIV)
There is no evidence that this has happened in recorded history.

*Triumph of Judah

In Isaiah 7:1-7 God tells the king of Judah that he shall not be harmed by his enemies.

And it came to pass in the days of Ahaz the son of Jotham, the son of Uzziah, king of Judah, that Rezin the king of Syria, and Pekah the son of Remaliah, king of Israel, went up toward Jerusalem to war against it, but could not prevail against it. And it was told the house of David, saying, Syria is confederate with Ephraim. And his heart was moved, and the heart of his people, as the trees of the wood are moved with the wind. Then said the LORD unto Isaiah, Go forth now to meet Ahaz, thou, and Shearjashub thy son, at the end of the conduit of the upper pool in the highway of the fuller's field; And say unto him, Take heed, and be quiet; fear not, neither be fainthearted for the two tails of these smoking firebrands, for the fierce anger of Rezin with Syria, and of the son of Remaliah. Because Syria, Ephraim, and the son of Remaliah, have taken evil counsel against thee, saying, Let us go up against Judah, and vex it, and let us make a breach therein for us, and set a king in the midst of it, even the son of Tabeal: Thus saith the Lord GOD, It shall not stand, neither shall it come to pass.
Yet it did come to pass. His enemies did harm him.

Wherefore the LORD his God delivered him into the hand of the king of Syria; and they smote him, and carried away a great multitude of them captives, and brought them to Damascus. And he was also delivered into the hand of the king of Israel, who smote him with a great slaughter. For Pekah the son of Remaliah slew in Judah an hundred and twenty thousand in one day, which were all valiant men; because they had forsaken the LORD God of their fathers.

*Isaiah predicts the Nile drying up, Sea draining


 In Isaiah 19:1-8 Isaiah tells us the Nile will dry up, ocean drains in the time of pagan Egypt.

Isaiah 19:1 The burden of Egypt. Behold, the LORD rideth upon a swift cloud, and shall come into Egypt: and the idols of Egypt shall be moved at his presence, and the heart of Egypt shall melt in the midst of it. 2 And I will set the Egyptians against the Egyptians: and they shall fight every one against his brother, and every one against his neighbour; city against city, and kingdom against kingdom.3 And the spirit of Egypt shall fail in the midst thereof; and I will destroy the counsel thereof: and they shall seek to the idols, and to the charmers, and to them that have familiar spirits, and to the wizards.4 And the Egyptians will I give over into the hand of a cruel lord; and a fierce king shall rule over them, saith the Lord, the LORD of hosts.5 And the waters shall fail from the sea, and the river shall be wasted and dried up.6 And they shall turn the rivers far away; and the brooks of defence shall be emptied and dried up: the reeds and flags shall wither.Isaiah 19:7 The paper reeds by the brooks, by the mouth of the brooks, and every thing sown by the brooks, shall wither, be driven away, and be no more. 8 The fishermen will groan and lament, all who cast hooks into the Nile; those who throw nets on the water will pine away.
This is an interesting prophecy because Isaiah outlines a very clear timeframe, the alleged prophet is unmistakably referring to Pagan Egypt, which ceased to exist in the 4th Century. (Isaiah 19:1-3) Since then, Egyptians have stopped using charms, wizards, and there are no statue-worshiping idolaters anymore, (Isaiah 19:3) so the reader can conclude this isn't an end times prophecy. The alleged prophet blatantly identifies the dried up river (Isaiah 19:5) with the Nile (Isaiah 19:8). And he goes even further to say one of the seas Egypt borders will drain, and this appears to coincide with the Nile River drying up. There is absolutely no hint of this prophecy being interpreted symbolically or metaphorically. Isaiah actually goes out of his way to stress the literal, physical, carnal fulfillment of this prophecy.

*Egyptians will speak the dead language of Canaan


 In Isaiah 19:18 Isaiah says Egyptians will learn the tongue of Canaanites

Isaiah 19:18 In that day shall five cities in the land of Egypt speak the language of Canaan, and swear to the LORD of hosts; one shall be called, The city of destruction.
Not only has the Canaanite language never been spoken by Egyptians, but it is now an extinct language. There is the very unlikely possibility Isaiah was referring to Hebrew, which is technically a Canaanite language. However, Hebrew was also never adopted by the Egyptians. And according to the context of this passage, Isaiah is specifically referring to Pagan Egypt, which ceased to exist in the 4th century. (See Above) So even if Egyptians started speaking Hebrew at this very moment, it would still be an inaccurate prediction. Also, it's worth noting that Isaiah believes the Egyptians will convert to Mosaic Judaism (a dead religion) and start offering sacrifices to the LORD shortly after this incident, (Isaiah 19:21) a practice no longer done by Jews since the Temple was destroyed and priesthood lost.

*Failure to smite Jebus


In Joshua 3:10 the eponymous Jew is quoted as saying the following:

Hereby ye shall know that the living God is among you, and that he will without fail drive out from before you the Canaanites, and the Hittites, and the Hivites, and the Perizzites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Jebusites.
This is a repetition of a promise had from God's own lips in earlier books. However, mere moments later we learn that:

As for the Jebusites the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the children of Judah could not drive them out; but the Jebusites dwell with the children of Judah at Jerusalem unto this day.[8]
The Books of Samuel relate that Jerusalem eventually falls to David, however there is no mention of the Jebusites being driven out. The Book of Kings implies that the surviving Jebusites were made serfs

1 Kings 9:20: And all the people that were left of the Amorites, Hittites, Perizzites, Hivites, and Jebusites, which were not of the children of Israel,
1 Kings 9:21: Their children that were left after them in the land, whom the children of Israel also were not able utterly to destroy, upon those did Solomon levy a tribute of bondservice unto this day.
The above verses from 1 Kings also contradict Deuteronomy 20:17 (ie. the Jebusites were meant to be slaughtered entirely):

But thou shalt utterly destroy them; namely, the Hittites, and the Amorites, the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, the Hivites, and the Jebusites; as the LORD thy God hath commanded thee.


*Israelites will be unbeatable


In Exodus 23:27 God tells Moses that he will defeat every enemy he encounters:

I will send my terror ahead of you and throw into confusion every nation you encounter. I will make all your enemies turn their backs and run. (NIV)
However, history indicates many defeats suffered by the Israelites. Note that most believers will pull a no true Scotsman and claim that the defeats happened only at times when the Israelites weren't pious enough.

 Land promisesIn the Bible, God allegedly made promises to Abraham to deliver him land then under the control of other tribes. For example, upon Abraham entering Canaan, Genesis 12:7 states, in part, "The LORD appeared to Abram and said, 'To your offspring I will give this land.'" (NIV) This promise was reiterated in slightly different ways throughout the books of Genesis and Exodus.

However, this did not reasonably soon thereafter come to be, as illustrated by Hebrews 11:13, which, regarding Abraham's descendents, states,

All these people were still living by faith when they died. They did not receive the things promised; they only saw them and welcomed them from a distance. And they admitted that they were aliens and strangers on earth. (NIV)
Similarly, in Exodus 23:31 God promises to give the Israelites all the land from the Mediterranean to the Red Sea and from the Euphrates River to "the desert." Historically this never happened.

*Joshua was also promised specific land. Per Joshua 1:3-5:

I will give you every place where you set your foot, as I promised Moses. Your territory will extend from the desert to Lebanon, and from the great river, the Euphrates—all the Hittite country—to the Great Sea on the west. No one will be able to stand up against you all the days of your life. As I was with Moses, so I will be with you; I will never leave you nor forsake you. (NIV)
Strangely, Joshua 11:23 indicates that he did indeed take the land:

So Joshua took the entire land, just as the LORD had directed Moses, and he gave it as an inheritance to Israel according to their tribal divisions. Then the land had rest from war. (NIV)
However, history and the Bible indicate all the land was not taken. Per Joshua 13:1-5:

When Joshua was old and well advanced in years, the LORD said to him, "You are very old, and there are still very large areas of land to be taken over. This is the land that remains: all the regions of the Philistines and Geshurites: from the Shihor River on the east of Egypt to the territory of Ekron on the north, all of it counted as Canaanite; the territory of the five Philistine rulers in Gaza, Ashdod, Ashkelon, Gath and Ekron—that of the Avvites from the south, all the land of the Canaanites, from Arah of the Sidonians as far as Aphek, the region of the Amorites, the area of the Gebalites; and all Lebanon to the east, from Baal Gad below Mount Hermon to Lebo Hamath. (NIV)

*Israel will live in peace with its neighbors

Ezekiel 28:24-26 predicts that Israel will live in peace with its neighbors:

No longer will the people of Israel have malicious neighbors who are painful briers and sharp thorns. Then they will know that I am the Sovereign LORD. This is what the Sovereign LORD says: When I gather the people of Israel from the nations where they have been scattered, I will show myself holy among them in the sight of the nations. Then they will live in their own land, which I gave to my servant Jacob. They will live there in safety and will build houses and plant vineyards; they will live in safety when I inflict punishment on all their neighbors who maligned them. Then they will know that I am the LORD their God. (NIV)
Ouch, that one hurt. A consistent aspect of history is that Israel has never gotten along with its neighbors. (Or, if you prefer, that its neighbors have never gotten along with it.) There's still hope that Israel and the neighbourhood will be peaceful one day, but it requires everyone in the region to stop "inflicting punishment" on each other.

*Davidic line will endure foreverAt several instances in the Old Testament God promises David that the descendants of Solomon will rule Judah forever. For example, in 2 Samuel 7:13-16 God tells the prophet Nathan:

He is the one who will build a house for my Name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you. Your house and your kingdom will endure forever before me; your throne will be established forever. (NIV)
There is no indication that this is anything other than a literal promise. In fact the promise is reiterated during times when the future of the earthly kingdom is in doubt. In 1 Kings 11:34-36:

But I will not take the whole kingdom out of Solomon's hand; I have made him ruler all the days of his life for the sake of David my servant, whom I chose and who observed my commands and statutes. I will take the kingdom from his son's hands and give you ten tribes. I will give one tribe to his son so that David my servant may always have a lamp before me in Jerusalem, the city where I chose to put my Name. (NIV)
Unfortunately for the prophet Nathan, the Davidic line ended with King Zedekiah in about 586 BC. [9] Biblical inerrantists, spotting a possible loophole, claim that Jesus , being descended from David, fulfilled this prophecy. Per Acts 2:29-31,

Brothers, I can tell you confidently that the patriarch David died and was buried, and his tomb is here to this day. But he was a prophet and knew that God had promised him on oath that he would place one of his descendants on his throne. Seeing what was ahead, he spoke of the resurrection of the Christ, that he was not abandoned to the grave, nor did his body see decay. (NIV)
However, there are many reasons this is an unsatisfactory solution. Aspects of the 2 Samuel reference above, specifically "When he does wrong," do not seem consistent with Christian doctrine of Jesus as the Son of God. Additionally, the line of kings is described as being continuous. Consider Jeremiah 33:17:

For this is what the LORD says: 'David will never fail to have a man to sit on the throne of the house of Israel, (NIV)
This leaves unexplained the near 600-year gap between Zedekiah and Jesus. Further, there is the question of the Davidic line after Jesus, as he apparently died childless. Note: Mark 6:3 and Matthew 13:55 as evidence for Jesus' siblings. Note: A precedent is previously set for biblical linage being a mantel rather then genetic linage due to Gen. 24 and 27, Jacob's theft of Esau's blessing and the selling of the birthright.

In reality the only evidence available that Jesus is a descendant of David is in the genealogies in Matthew and Luke. The alleged prophecy stresses the literal descendancy from David. We read in 2 Samuel 7:12:

When your days are over and you rest with your fathers, I will raise up your offspring to succeed you, who will come from your own body, and I will establish his kingdom. (NIV)
However, if the virgin birth doctrine be valid then Jesus is not actually the son of Joseph, making virgin birth seem incompatible with Jesus' descendancy from David.

Finally, several Bible verses seem to indicate that Jesus is in fact not of the line of David. For example Matthew 22:41-45 states:

While the Pharisees were gathered together, Jesus asked them, "What do you think about the Christ? Whose son is he?" "The son of David," they replied. He said to them, "How is it then that David, speaking by the Spirit, calls him 'Lord'? For he says, 'The Lord said to my Lord: "Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet." ' If then David calls him 'Lord,' how can he be his son?" (NIV)

Indeed.


*Jesus will be a Nazarene

In the Bible, Jesus is born in Bethlehem but grows up in Nazareth. Matthew credits the Nazareth upbringing as a fullfilment of prophecy:

Matt. 2:23 And [Mary, Joseph, and Jesus] came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth; that it might be fulfilled which was spoken through the prophets, that he should be called a Nazarene.
Unlike most of the other "prophecies" in this category, we can't even tell which Old Testament passage, if any, Matthew is twisting to fit the story; no OT prophecy seems relevant. It's almost as if he's just flat-out declaring that this was prophecied and hoping no one calls his bluff. Of course, even this one is't too big a stone for apologists to swallow. As web page dedicated to this particular problem puts it: "First, it is necessary to point out that a genuine textual problem only exists if one has exhausted every possibility of interpretation, and there simply is no reasonable explanation that resolves the difficulty."

The most popular Christian explanation is that "Nazarene" is a figurative expression for anyone who is despised or rejected, as Jesus is at various points in the New Testament and the Messiah at various points in the old. Not only is that a heck of a cop-out, but if it's Matthew's intention, then it makes little sense for him to say that Jesus moving to a literal Nazareth is a fulfillment of the "figurative Nazarene" prophecy. A likelier possibility, and one which makes the author of Matthew look less dishonest and/or stupid, is that "the prophets" doesn't mean the Old Testament authors, but some other person or group of people, or an oral tradition. Of course, in that instance the case for a "fulfilled prophecy" is left empty-handed (and it's a catch-all excuse for similar failures).

*Jesus will be pierced

John 19:37 claims that Jesus being pierced in the course of his execution fulfills a prophecy: "and, as another scripture says, 'They will look on the one they have pierced.'" The NIV translation in a footnote indicates the source of this prophecy is Zechariah 12:10:

And I will pour out on the house of David and the inhabitants of Jerusalem a spirit of grace and supplication. They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son. (NIV)
The first observation to make is that the verse in John is an inaccurate quote, leaving out the word "me." This is to alleviate inconsistencies with the one speaking, presumably John, also being the one pierced, claimed to be Jesus. In fact, this relates to the problem inherent in assuming the verse from John refers to Jesus--that the "me" who is pierced cannot be the same as the "him" who is mourned for.

Also the context of Zechariah 12 is of an invading army and is not intended as a prophecy of Jesus.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #233 on: January 12, 2014, 02:27:52 AM »
Maybe. But Hollywood would never make a movie making fun of Muhammad. But, making movies that make fun of Jesus are a dime a dozen.

Perhaps that is because muslims go bat-shit insane and start burning embassies?
Meanwhile most christians acknowledge humor/simply have balls, and thus don't start burning everything?

Stop engaging in reductio ad absurdum.

It's not a conspiracy if there's proof.

Wow, people are having wars here.
No seriously, there has been war since ants evolved, war is not some magical prophesy that indicates the end of the world.

Although, nukes these days are kind of a "start a war, and we ALL die" type weapon, hence nothing huge has happened since the end of the cold war.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #234 on: January 12, 2014, 02:30:29 AM »


No doubt the culture has an unhealthy hatred for Christianity,

Yeah that's why we have politician loudly proclaiming their Christianity every election cycle.
 &)
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #235 on: January 12, 2014, 02:31:35 AM »
Maybe. But Hollywood would never make a movie making fun of Muhammad. But, making movies that make fun of Jesus are a dime a dozen.

Perhaps that is because muslims go bat-shit insane and start burning embassies?
Meanwhile most christians acknowledge humor/simply have balls, and thus don't start burning everything?

Stop engaging in reductio ad absurdum.

It's not a conspiracy if there's proof.

Wow, people are having wars here.
No seriously, there has been war since ants evolved, war is not some magical prophesy that indicates the end of the world.

Although, nukes these days are kind of a "start a war, and we ALL die" type weapon, hence nothing huge has happened since the end of the cold war.

No, nothing vague. Bible says the temple will be rebuilt in the last days and it's being rebuilt now.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #236 on: January 12, 2014, 02:33:23 AM »


This is certainly true. Biblical prophecy coming true today should be all the proof atheists need.

Yes a specific fulfilled prophesy after the development of scientific method would help your(the theist) case. A documented miracle with unambiguous evidence would also certainly help.

Except none exist. I don't know why theists continue to argue this one. None exist. How more plain could it be?


Biblical Prophesies? Lets look at some as listed on RationalWiki:

*Destruction of Tyre

For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water. And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. [2]


In this block of text God states quite blatantly that Nebuchadnezzar would sack and destroy completely the city of Tyre. However the events given in this passage never did come to pass. After a 13 year siege Nebuchadnezzar withdrew his forces. Despite being conquered and razed (torn down) by Alexander the Great 240 years later, [3] Tyre still exists. [4]

*snip prophecies*

That is a lot you have listed. Who's to say they didn't happen yet?

What if the Nile dries up in a few years? Then what?
What if people in Egypt start speaking that language? Then what?
What if Egypt becomes a desolate wasteland? Then what?

Will you believe or make excuses?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #237 on: January 12, 2014, 02:36:32 AM »

This is an answer. An individual answer. A stand. I can respect that much. I guess it pleases you to know for some odd reason Homeland security named the fundamental Christian public enemy #1 in America. I think 2013.


http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/topten/

DHS has no such list.  However, given the rise of anti-American sentiment among the conservative sect it wouldn't surprise me.

You want to not get treated like a terrorist?  Stop acting like one.  Just like if you don't' want to be treated like a racist piece of shit; don't act like a racist piece of shit.

You f.ucks are forever threatening the president, and going around waving your guns in the air threatening violence every time some petty piece of bullshit doesn't go your way.  For example one person suggested that 'for the safety of the nation' if his political opponent were elected then it might require some brave American to shoot him.  Lets not forget how often the subject of 'secession has come up.  Usually every time you don't get to shove Christianity and government into the bedroom or get denied the ability to throw money at the feet of the wealthy.


So yeah, it's not that you just weasel out of direct answers, it's also that you guys are always trying to blame your farts on the dog while you're at it as well.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #238 on: January 12, 2014, 02:38:53 AM »


Why are you here.. discussing the fine details of page 214 and how best to show the wizards of hogwarts that magic is fake? complete game plans... counterpoints to counterpoints discussed on various threads. Why? I ask again how is tthis not proselytizing for your (lack of) faith?
food for thought...

Because people are stating said books are perfect and real, and the belief in the false is shaping public policy. That's why. In fact that was the point of the whole darn analogy.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #239 on: January 12, 2014, 02:39:47 AM »
No doubt the culture has an unhealthy hatred for Christianity, but not the other religions. The reason is that the truth stings.

America is comprised mostly of Christians. Middle east are mostly muslims, who are insane, so i guess they hate christian. Straya tends to hate muslims... And i cannot speak for anything else...

As for truth, yes, i know it can hurt, hence that is why you don't believe in evolustion... *sigh*

Everyone knows Islam is false, so nobody cares about it.

Almost everyone cares about Islam, not because it is true, but because if you do ridiculous things such as draw their prophet, they start killing everything like piranhas.
Its respect caused by fear, not lack of respect due to falsehood.

What if the Nile dries up in a few years? Then what?

Investigate.

What if people in Egypt start speaking that language? Then what?

Investigate.

What if Egypt becomes a desolate wasteland? Then what?

Isn't it already?... :|
Otherwise, investigate.

Will you believe or make excuses?

I for one would like some good scientific evidence suggesting that the end of the world is nigh, due to a prophesy written in the bible.
You cant use the bible to back up the bible.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #240 on: January 12, 2014, 02:43:44 AM »


This is certainly true. Biblical prophecy coming true today should be all the proof atheists need.

Yes a specific fulfilled prophesy after the development of scientific method would help your(the theist) case. A documented miracle with unambiguous evidence would also certainly help.

Except none exist. I don't know why theists continue to argue this one. None exist. How more plain could it be?


Biblical Prophesies? Lets look at some as listed on RationalWiki:

*Destruction of Tyre

For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water. And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. [2]


In this block of text God states quite blatantly that Nebuchadnezzar would sack and destroy completely the city of Tyre. However the events given in this passage never did come to pass. After a 13 year siege Nebuchadnezzar withdrew his forces. Despite being conquered and razed (torn down) by Alexander the Great 240 years later, [3] Tyre still exists. [4]

*snip prophecies*

That is a lot you have listed. Who's to say they didn't happen yet?

What if the Nile dries up in a few years? Then what?
What if people in Egypt start speaking that language? Then what?
What if Egypt becomes a desolate wasteland? Then what?

Will you believe or make excuses?

What if? Sorry, I don't live in conjecture land.  Well see when Nebuchnezzar comes back to life and razes the city of Tyre, okay?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #241 on: January 12, 2014, 02:44:10 AM »
Almost everyone cares about Islam, not because it is true, but because if you do ridiculous things such as draw their prophet, they start killing everything like piranhas.
Its respect caused by fear, not lack of respect due to falsehood.

Do you know how many atheists on here have said they would spit in God's face if He was real? So they can do that to God, but can't handle Muslims who are not as powerful as God?

Something seems off here.....

Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #242 on: January 12, 2014, 02:51:10 AM »
Do you know how many atheists on here have said they would spit in God's face if He was real? So they can do that to God, but can't handle Muslims who are not as powerful as God?

You see, if one is an atheist, you are apparently going to hell, so if god came up to you, you are dead anyway.

But of course, understand that atheists by default have no fear of a deity, they do not exist.

Muslims on the other-hand are real, and if they are pissed, they kill you, until you are dead.

Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #243 on: January 12, 2014, 02:52:41 AM »
Are you trying to pretend we've never had Muslims on the website?
Their pretend god and prophet is just as fake as yours is.

Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline voodoo child

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #244 on: January 12, 2014, 02:53:59 AM »
Something seems off here.....


What part, thanking god for a rain storm to put the forest fire out or for the lightning that started it?
The classical man is just a bundle of routine, ideas and tradition. If you follow the classical pattern, you are understanding the routine, the tradition, the shadow, you are not understanding yourself. Truth has no path. Truth is living and therefore changing. Bruce lee

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #245 on: January 12, 2014, 02:54:42 AM »
Do you know how many atheists on here have said they would spit in God's face if He was real? So they can do that to God, but can't handle Muslims who are not as powerful as God?

You see, if one is an atheist, you are apparently going to hell, so if god came up to you, you are dead anyway.

But of course, understand that atheists by default have no fear of a deity, they do not exist.

Muslims on the other-hand are real, and if they are pissed, they kill you, until you are dead.

Are you saying that you will never stand up for yourself?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #246 on: January 12, 2014, 02:55:18 AM »
Muslims on the other-hand are real, and if they are pissed, they kill you, until you are dead.

Maybe he's just another pseudo Christian who's secretly an admirer of Muslim faith.
There do seem to be plenty of them out there.  With the current trend toward hardliner religion though, it seems that Islam is too.... liberal, for them.

What does that tell you when Sharia law is to the left of the modern Christian Conservative?
Give a man a fire, and he'll be warm for a night.  Set a man on fire and he'll be warm for the rest of his life.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #247 on: January 12, 2014, 02:59:38 AM »
As a US soldier I can't pray with my men in public. I can't see my chaplain in public. Unless I'm NOT Christian. Christian services are canceled on many stateside bases.



Really? This is from the DoD website regarding "comprehensive soldier fitness"
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #248 on: January 12, 2014, 03:01:04 AM »
Are you saying that you will never stand up for yourself?

I do stand up for myself, and have personally eaten pork, despite a Muslim saying for me to do otherwise.

Of course, I am in Australia, not the middle east, so it is particularly safer here to do so.

But I prefer to keep out of other peoples business, no need for me to start some massive muslim riot here.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #249 on: January 12, 2014, 10:07:30 AM »


This is certainly true. Biblical prophecy coming true today should be all the proof atheists need.

Yes a specific fulfilled prophesy after the development of scientific method would help your(the theist) case. A documented miracle with unambiguous evidence would also certainly help.

Except none exist. I don't know why theists continue to argue this one. None exist. How more plain could it be?


Biblical Prophesies? Lets look at some as listed on RationalWiki:

*Destruction of Tyre

For thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, I will bring upon Tyrus Nebuchadrezzar king of Babylon, a king of kings, from the north, with horses, and with chariots, and with horsemen, and companies, and much people. He shall slay with the sword thy daughters in the field: and he shall make a fort against thee, and cast a mount against thee, and lift up the buckler against thee. And he shall set engines of war against thy walls, and with his axes he shall break down thy towers. By reason of the abundance of his horses their dust shall cover thee: thy walls shall shake at the noise of the horsemen, and of the wheels, and of the chariots, when he shall enter into thy gates, as men enter into a city wherein is made a breach. With the hoofs of his horses shall he tread down all thy streets: he shall slay thy people by the sword, and thy strong garrisons shall go down to the ground. And they shall make a spoil of thy riches, and make a prey of thy merchandise: and they shall break down thy walls, and destroy thy pleasant houses: and they shall lay thy stones and thy timber and thy dust in the midst of the water. And I will cause the noise of thy songs to cease; and the sound of thy harps shall be no more heard. And I will make thee like the top of a rock: thou shalt be a place to spread nets upon; thou shalt be built no more: for I the LORD have spoken it, saith the Lord GOD. [2]


In this block of text God states quite blatantly that Nebuchadnezzar would sack and destroy completely the city of Tyre. However the events given in this passage never did come to pass. After a 13 year siege Nebuchadnezzar withdrew his forces. Despite being conquered and razed (torn down) by Alexander the Great 240 years later, [3] Tyre still exists. [4]

*snip prophecies*

That is a lot you have listed. Who's to say they didn't happen yet?

What if the Nile dries up in a few years? Then what?
What if people in Egypt start speaking that language? Then what?
What if Egypt becomes a desolate wasteland? Then what?

Will you believe or make excuses?
With every year that passes by where these events do not happen, you remain a gullible fucking idiot for all to see.

Ha ha, Motherfucker. Fucking ha. Ha. Ha.[1]
 1. I'm done playing with this motherfucker.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #250 on: January 12, 2014, 11:34:52 AM »
With every year that passes by where these events do not happen, you remain a gullible fucking idiot for all to see.

Ha ha, Motherfucker. Fucking ha. Ha. Ha.[1]
 1. I'm done playing with this motherfucker.

And notice his "rebuttal" doesn't mention events that can not possibly happen, and furthermore his primary evidence of predictions coming true is the rebuilding of the temple. Something that is being done because of said predictions.  That's no more evidence that the early 23rd century will look exactly like Star Trek The Original Series, with miniskirts, slowly enunciating computer voices, and all  because Star Trek fans successfully lobbied to get one of the space shuttles named Enterprise.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #251 on: January 12, 2014, 02:02:14 PM »
No, nothing vague. Bible says the temple will be rebuilt in the last days and it's being rebuilt now.

Okay.  Let's get very specific then. 

What precisely will you accept as the completion of the temple rebuild?
What will be the period of the last days from that point to the end?
Is there anything that could prevent the end once the temple is complete?

If this is a real prophecy you want to stand behind, let's hear the details, to prevent these being yet another load of bull that gets twisted after the event.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #252 on: January 12, 2014, 02:59:18 PM »
This is certainly true. Biblical prophecy coming true today should be all the proof atheists need. It is dishonest to ignore what a book says just because you have a prejudice against the book.
By that logic, we should assume that a fortuneteller who gives us a vague prediction that ends up being correct actually saw the future.

Personally, I prefer to be skeptical of prophecies and the like.  Especially when it's so very easy for people to intentionally 'fulfill' them, and when other prophecies from the same source were never fulfilled.

Offline G-Roll

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #253 on: January 12, 2014, 04:31:31 PM »
As a US soldier I can't pray with my men in public. I can't see my chaplain in public. Unless I'm NOT Christian. Christian services are canceled on many stateside bases.

I would love to see the DOD guidance that inhibits you from praying. I would love to see/read the instructions that go directly against the US constitution. Now if you are complaining that your Chaplin can't say "In Jesus name" after his 10 minute prayer at a change of command ceremony I got nothing for ya. I suppose Muslims and Jews should pray in Jesus name? I thought the cross on his uniform identified him as a Christian praying to Jesus anyway.

Anywho here are some highlights of  DOD Instruction 1300.17

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/130017p.pdf

Quote
4. POLICY. The U.S. Constitution proscribes Congress from enacting any law prohibiting the
free exercise of religion. The Department of Defense places a high value on the rights of
members of the Military Services to observe the tenets of their respective religions. It is DoD
policy that requests for accommodation of religious practices should be approved by
commanders when accommodation will not have an adverse impact on mission accomplishment,
military readiness, unit cohesion, standards, or discipline.

Quote
3. When requests for accommodation are not in the best interest of the unit, and continued
tension between the unit’s requirements and the individual’s religious beliefs is apparent,
administrative actions should be considered. Those actions may include, but are not limited to,
assignment, reassignment, reclassification, or separation. Nothing in this Instruction precludes
action under chapter 47 of title 10, United States Code (Reference (c)), in the appropriate
circumstances.

Quote
a. Worship practices, holy days, and Sabbath or similar religious observance requests shall
be accommodated, except when precluded by military necessity.
b. Religious beliefs shall be included as a factor for consideration when granting separate
rations.
c. Religious beliefs shall be considered as a factor for the waiver of required medical
practices, subject to military requirements and medical risks to the unit.
d. Familiarization with religious accommodation policies shall be included in the training
curricula for command, judge advocate, chaplain, and other appropriate career fields or
assignments.
e. Applicants for commissioning, enlistment, and reenlistment shall be advised of their
Military Department’s specific religious accommodation policies.

Please note the lack of Christian prosecution.
Also I would recommend you be more careful identifying yourself as a service member within the realm of social media. Lol you tracking me?

Offline Ivellios

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #254 on: January 12, 2014, 07:58:13 PM »
And notice his "rebuttal" doesn't mention events that can not possibly happen, and furthermore his primary evidence of predictions coming true is the rebuilding of the temple. Something that is being done because of said predictions.  That's no more evidence that the early 23rd century will look exactly like Star Trek The Original Series, with miniskirts, slowly enunciating computer voices, and all  because Star Trek fans successfully lobbied to get one of the space shuttles named Enterprise.

Harbinger, There is such a thing as a "self-fufilling prophesy." When someone imagines something then others cause it to happen.

Unless Gene Rodenbery is a "true prophet," that's what prophecy is. We can thank him for the inspiration of Cellphones[1], Touchscreens[2] and a few other things.

For the other prophecies that 'could come true!' Sooner or later every city will fall into ruin, whether we've left the Earth, get hit by a roid or we kill ourselves off. 

I prophesy a Hurricane will hit somewhere in the US, and it'll herald the 'End of DaysTM.'
 1. heck our cellphones have more functions than you can shake a tricorder at.
 2. which even just a few years ago were considered "impossible"

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #255 on: January 12, 2014, 08:08:49 PM »
As a US soldier I can't pray with my men in public. I can't see my chaplain in public. Unless I'm NOT Christian. Christian services are canceled on many stateside bases.

I would love to see the DOD guidance that inhibits you from praying. I would love to see/read the instructions that go directly against the US constitution. Now if you are complaining that your Chaplin can't say "In Jesus name" after his 10 minute prayer at a change of command ceremony I got nothing for ya. I suppose Muslims and Jews should pray in Jesus name? I thought the cross on his uniform identified him as a Christian praying to Jesus anyway.

Anywho here are some highlights of  DOD Instruction 1300.17

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/130017p.pdf

Quote
4. POLICY. The U.S. Constitution proscribes Congress from enacting any law prohibiting the
free exercise of religion. The Department of Defense places a high value on the rights of
members of the Military Services to observe the tenets of their respective religions. It is DoD
policy that requests for accommodation of religious practices should be approved by
commanders when accommodation will not have an adverse impact on mission accomplishment,
military readiness, unit cohesion, standards, or discipline.

Quote
3. When requests for accommodation are not in the best interest of the unit, and continued
tension between the unit’s requirements and the individual’s religious beliefs is apparent,
administrative actions should be considered. Those actions may include, but are not limited to,
assignment, reassignment, reclassification, or separation. Nothing in this Instruction precludes
action under chapter 47 of title 10, United States Code (Reference (c)), in the appropriate
circumstances.

Quote
a. Worship practices, holy days, and Sabbath or similar religious observance requests shall
be accommodated, except when precluded by military necessity.
b. Religious beliefs shall be included as a factor for consideration when granting separate
rations.
c. Religious beliefs shall be considered as a factor for the waiver of required medical
practices, subject to military requirements and medical risks to the unit.
d. Familiarization with religious accommodation policies shall be included in the training
curricula for command, judge advocate, chaplain, and other appropriate career fields or
assignments.
e. Applicants for commissioning, enlistment, and reenlistment shall be advised of their
Military Department’s specific religious accommodation policies.

Please note the lack of Christian prosecution.
Also I would recommend you be more careful identifying yourself as a service member within the realm of social media. Lol you tracking me?

Tack this, Poag... Your publication date is 10FEB2009
Maybe you should check into something a bit more up to date. Maybe you can ask a Christian Soldier what's happening on the ground. Not allowing me to say "in jesus name" is a violation of my freedom of speech. You don't mind that though?
Maybe this news article will amuse you and spur you to dig deeper?

http://z3news.com/w/president-obama-ramping-persecution-christians-military/

or this perhaps.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/10/14/us-army-defines-christian-ministry-as-domestic-hate-group/?intcmp=related

At any rate. I can say as a deployed infantry soldier with secret security clearance, Your government lies to you. Your government controlled media lies to you too. Always keep this in mind.

The question is when it comes will you stand with the Christian and his American right to be. Or will you, as you suggest, stand with your government no matter the lvl of corruption?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #256 on: January 12, 2014, 08:25:47 PM »
As a US soldier I can't pray with my men in public. I can't see my chaplain in public. Unless I'm NOT Christian. Christian services are canceled on many stateside bases.

I would love to see the DOD guidance that inhibits you from praying. I would love to see/read the instructions that go directly against the US constitution. Now if you are complaining that your Chaplin can't say "In Jesus name" after his 10 minute prayer at a change of command ceremony I got nothing for ya. I suppose Muslims and Jews should pray in Jesus name? I thought the cross on his uniform identified him as a Christian praying to Jesus anyway.

Anywho here are some highlights of  DOD Instruction 1300.17

http://www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/130017p.pdf

Quote
4. POLICY. The U.S. Constitution proscribes Congress from enacting any law prohibiting the
free exercise of religion. The Department of Defense places a high value on the rights of
members of the Military Services to observe the tenets of their respective religions. It is DoD
policy that requests for accommodation of religious practices should be approved by
commanders when accommodation will not have an adverse impact on mission accomplishment,
military readiness, unit cohesion, standards, or discipline.

Quote
3. When requests for accommodation are not in the best interest of the unit, and continued
tension between the unit’s requirements and the individual’s religious beliefs is apparent,
administrative actions should be considered. Those actions may include, but are not limited to,
assignment, reassignment, reclassification, or separation. Nothing in this Instruction precludes
action under chapter 47 of title 10, United States Code (Reference (c)), in the appropriate
circumstances.

Quote
a. Worship practices, holy days, and Sabbath or similar religious observance requests shall
be accommodated, except when precluded by military necessity.
b. Religious beliefs shall be included as a factor for consideration when granting separate
rations.
c. Religious beliefs shall be considered as a factor for the waiver of required medical
practices, subject to military requirements and medical risks to the unit.
d. Familiarization with religious accommodation policies shall be included in the training
curricula for command, judge advocate, chaplain, and other appropriate career fields or
assignments.
e. Applicants for commissioning, enlistment, and reenlistment shall be advised of their
Military Department’s specific religious accommodation policies.

Please note the lack of Christian prosecution.
Also I would recommend you be more careful identifying yourself as a service member within the realm of social media. Lol you tracking me?

Track this, Poag... Your publication date is 10FEB2009
Maybe you should check into something a bit more up to date. Maybe you can ask a Christian Soldier what's happening on the ground. Not allowing me to say "in jesus name" is a violation of my freedom of speech. AND (mild yes) Christian persecution. You don't mind that though?
Maybe this news article will amuse you and spur you to dig deeper?

http://z3news.com/w/president-obama-ramping-persecution-christians-military/

or this perhaps.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/10/14/us-army-defines-christian-ministry-as-domestic-hate-group/?intcmp=related

At any rate. I can say as a deployed infantry soldier with secret security clearance, Your government lies to you. Your government controlled media lies to you too. Always keep this in mind.

The question is when it comes will you stand with the Christian and his American right to be. Or will you, as you suggest, stand with your government no matter the lvl of corruption?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #257 on: January 12, 2014, 08:59:45 PM »
harbinger77:

Regarding your "signature"

Quotes from Albert Einstein:

It was of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated.  I do not believe in a personal god and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly.  If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.  (Albert Einstein)


The word god is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weaknesses, the Bible a collection of honourable, but still primitive legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation no matter how subtle can (for me) change this.  (Albert Einstein)


For me the Jewish religion, like all others, is an incarnation of the most childish superstitions. And the Jewish people to whom I gladly belong and with whose mentality I have a deep affinity, have no different quality for me than all other people. As far as my experience goes, they are no better than other human groups, although they are protected from the worst cancers by a lack of power. Otherwise I cannot see anything 'chosen' about them.  (Albert Einstein)


I see only with deep regret that God punishes so many of his children for their numerous stupidities, for which only he himself can be held responsible; in my opinion, only his nonexistence could excuse him.  (Albert Einstein)


From the viewpoint of a Jesuit priest I am, of course, and have always been an atheist.  (Albert Einstein)


I have repeatedly said that in my opinion the idea of a personal God is a childlike one.  (Albert Einstein)


Since our inner experiences consist of reproductions, and combinations of sensory impressions, the concept of a soul without a body seems to me to be empty and devoid of meaning.  (Albert Einstein)



God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #258 on: January 12, 2014, 09:03:34 PM »


http://z3news.com/w/president-obama-ramping-persecution-christians-military/

or this perhaps.
http://www.foxnews.com/opinion/2013/10/14/us-army-defines-christian-ministry-as-domestic-hate-group/?intcmp=related



What I find amusing is you trust (1)Fox News who had to go to court to get upheld for their permission to lie, and whose job #1 is to discredit all liberals particularly Obama and  (2) a website called "Zeal for Christianity" as your news sources.

Your bias is laughable.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline lotanddaughters

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #259 on: January 12, 2014, 09:11:51 PM »
Maybe you should check into something a bit more up to date.

Like what? Another tall tale from the Ancient World?





Maybe you can ask a Christian Soldier what's happening on the ground.

Christian Soldier? What the hell are they doing over there? Turning the other cheek?


Dear Christian Soldier,

Either put down the guns, or remove "Christian" as part of your description, Thou hypocrite.




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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #260 on: January 12, 2014, 09:26:42 PM »
I guess it pleases you to know for some odd reason Homeland security named the fundamental Christian public enemy #1 in America. I think 2013.

As has already been pointed out, this is a lie.

As a US soldier I can't pray with my men in public. I can't see my chaplain in public. Unless I'm NOT Christian. Christian services are canceled on many stateside bases.

Another lie.  Actually not just a lie, but pure bullshit. I've more than 21 years active duty, and 10 years military civil service, and for that more than 30 years of service, and Christianity prevails above all in the US military, plain and simple.  Military Chaplains are very public people -- if you can't pray with yours in public, you must be stationed in a country where such a thing isn't permitted by international agreement. On the dozen or so bases/posts I've been stationed, Christian chaplains are all to happy to pray with anyone, anywhere, anytime.

How easily these lies roll off your tongue H77... Your god must be pleased.

   
There is no opinion so absurd that a preacher could not express it.
-- Bernie Katz