Author Topic: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?  (Read 22804 times)

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Offline SevenPatch

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #203 on: January 11, 2014, 04:07:43 AM »
Tim,

Every one of your answers is a judgement.  You are judging that God does not owe us an answer.

I would like to jump in here.

Let me make the response to this as simple as possible:

God by definition is PERFECT. Therefore, everything God does is PERFECT. You may personally think God's actions are wrong, but then you would basically be admitting that you are MORE PERFECT than a PERFECT being.

Okay, so you judge God's actions to be right.

What makes you the judge of God?


I've asked that question a few times now and have not gotten an answer.  The response so far from theists is that I can't judge God while the theist can.

Why is this?

The answer is that theists project themselves as God.  The reason a theist can judge God is because the theist IS God.  Any judgement the theist makes of God is the same judgement that God would make.  I can't judge God because I can't judge the theist.  I can't judge that God owes me an answer to my questions because the theist certainly doesn't owe me anything let alone an answer.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 04:10:23 AM by SevenPatch »
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #204 on: January 11, 2014, 04:26:43 AM »
I referenced (Job) to show his sovereignty (literally to "over" and "reign" or to rule over everything. To be in control of everything). The book of Job shows his sovereignty.

Yep.  Shows he will do what he wants to anyone, regardless of what they try to do.  Hence trying to do the right thing is irrelevant.

Might it also be known that God at no point causes anything to happen to Job. He simply allows Satan to do it.

Yup.  Hence rendering the whole book moot.  We KNOW Satan does bad stuff, Job knew it.  So bad stuff happening because of Satan is a no-brainer.

All Job shows is that you can try the hardest you can to do what your god wants, and he will screw you over just because he can.  Sure - that's sovreignity ( or dictatorship), but it shows zero love or benevolence.  And if I were to worship a god, those are the qualities I would worship, not some brutal "might makes right".
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline RED_ApeTHEIST

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #205 on: January 11, 2014, 09:28:11 AM »


God by definition is PERFECT. Therefore, everything God does is PERFECT.

And since I can think of better ways of handling things than your alleged PERFECT being, said being does not exist. By Definition.

I'd like to jump in on your jumping in.

Firstly; there is no one definition of god, so saying that god is "by definition" anything is questionable right from the get go.

Secondly; perfection is subjective and as such cannot exist in objective reality. If your god is "perfect" then it is much less likely to exist than if it were flawed.
The relevant equation is: Knowledge = power = energy = matter = mass; a good bookshop is just a genteel Black Hole that knows how to read." - Terry Pratchet

Offline Tero

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #206 on: January 11, 2014, 09:42:39 AM »
To the opening post:
Why would you ask theists these questions in the first place? There are not going to be any answers you haven't seen before. "It was God's will." Etc

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #207 on: January 11, 2014, 09:46:00 AM »
Tim,

Every one of your answers is a judgement.  You are judging that God does not owe us an answer.

I would like to jump in here.

Let me make the response to this as simple as possible:

God by definition is PERFECT. Therefore, everything God does is PERFECT. You may personally think God's actions are wrong, but then you would basically be admitting that you are MORE PERFECT than a PERFECT being.

What qualifies you to judge and declare perfection?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #208 on: January 11, 2014, 09:50:08 AM »
To the opening post:
Why would you ask theists these questions in the first place? There are not going to be any answers you haven't seen before. "It was God's will." Etc

Optimism.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Star Stuff

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #209 on: January 11, 2014, 10:30:30 AM »
Oh and one final side note......"Star stuff". DO NOT insult my intelligence by saying that I simply regurgitate things fed to me by my family and church.

I wasn't insulting you, I was describing you.  Please appreciate that I too was once a christian (yes, a "true" christian).  I was born and raised in it, so I'm quite familiar with the tired old yarns that you emit, and recognize them as regurgitation.  That's not an insult, it's an observation.



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I'll have you know that my faith is based on a life pursuit of truth, integrity, and knowledge. God is simply the only one that makes sense to me.

Interesting; what were the good reasons you came across that were convincing to you, and that are not convincing to 95% of the members of the Academy of Science?  What do you know that they don't?  I don't doubt your integrity, I doubt your beliefs, for they have ZERO evidence and reason to back them up. They are separate from "you".



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That is not based on brainwashing, but a lifetime spent in the love and guidance of my creator and saviour Jesus Christ.

So let me ask you: Were you born & raised in a christian home?  I'm wondering too.....what is your approximate age?



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Before you presume to think that someone is "lesser" than you, or stupidly regurgitating things, you should think again.

Where did I say that I thought you were less than me?  We're dealing with your beliefs and assertions, and it would be helpful (for you) to accept that those beliefs and assertions are not free from critical inquiry.



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I don't want to speak for a moderator.....

I don't moderate.  Due to the technical guts of this forum, it was necessary to give me "Moderator" status in order for me to have access and control over the "Quote of the Day" thread.  That is the extent of the "Moderator" badge for me.  So I'm just a regular person.



Quote
Please refrain from saying that my responses are regurgitated things that I am incapable of coming up with myself.

But you didn't come up with it yourself.  I've heard it all a million times before.  It's as though theists are robots who repeat all the same nonsensical rationalizations and excuses over, and over, and over.  It's what fed the believer from the pulpit, apologetics, and myriad other forms within the christian bubble.   It's painful.  But, I fully understand, for I used to say the same old things myself when my mind was turned to stone by faith.  I was credulous due to being young and was weak in my critical thinking skills.  That was a long time ago, and I look back on it with utter embarrassment.



Quote
I would appreciate that you treat me and the other people on this forum with respect and dignity. It is one thing to say that you believe someone to be wrong. It is another thing to say that you think they are stupid for believing what they believe. Or should I quote "Infantile".

Given the wild, supernatural claims you're making (all without a shred of evidence) you're getting that in spades.
Again, you need to separate "you" from your beliefs and assertions.  If your beliefs and assertions are infantile, then they ought not to receive protection from having that pointed out.  It is possible that you too will one day wake up from the delusion of faith, and you will then be able to look back and see that "you" are indeed separate from those old supernatural beliefs.

I'll leave you with this old beauty on respect:


« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 11:26:03 AM by Star Stuff »
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #210 on: January 11, 2014, 03:09:57 PM »

I wasn't insulting you, I was describing you.

Unfortunately these two things "insulting" and "describing" are not mutually exclusive.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #211 on: January 11, 2014, 04:57:40 PM »
I find this over and over again on this forum - what seems to be the simplest and directest question takes pages and pages of dodging and backsliding and ignoring until - maybe - you finally get an answer.

I'm sure there is a lot of discussion to be had about the psychology of it all, but I'm interested in a different question.

If there IS a god out there, and that god is as just and right and GOOD as most believers would have us believe - then why is all the dodging necessary in the first place?  Surely a god so good, so perfect, so right, would lead to discussions along the lines of:

Anfauglir: Can you explain why your god.....
Believer: (firmly) Yes.  It is because.....(specific and direct answer).
Anfauglir:  Ah, I see - that makes perfect sense.  Thank you.

Now THAT kind of god - the one where there was no need to dodge, no need to prevaricate, no need to shy away from "awkward" questions......THAT is a god that I could really get behind.  But these gods who are so tricksy, so convoluted, so demonstrative of so many negative behaviours that their believers have to dodge the questions and go into such lengthy apologetics......well, there just seems something suspicious about it all.

A truly good, truly godly god, would be very unlikely to raise any of these questions in the first place.  And it certainly wouldn't require the degree of evasion and goal-post shifting that we see so much of on these forums. 

If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.

I don't have a good answer other than the irritating "it depends". 

Some of the questions posed here seem worded in such a way that clarification is needed.  Sometimes the questions seem almost like a trap that no matter how it is answered the reply will not be sufficient. 

For me, I try to answer the question directly but often times am left with the answer "I don't know".  I can offer an opinion or a speculation but rarely does theology lend itself to absolute certainty. 

It would be nice if God had provided a set of If-Then instructions that would allow the world to operate like a well coded software program.  But it is not there.

I had good intentions to say something of importance but I fear all I have done is added to your frustration.

Respectfully,

OldChurchGuy
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #212 on: January 11, 2014, 05:03:26 PM »
^I don't know is a perfectly acceptable answer to a direct question, OCG.  I wish more people were willing to admit that they didn't know for sure instead of trying to pretend that they do know (and digging themselves deeper).  I was really bad about that when I was younger - I would very often claim that I knew something that someone had just explained to me in order to avoid looking like I didn't know.

I wish more of the theists on this forum would take you as an inspiration of how to act.  Whatever I think about your theology, your humility about it is very impressive.

Offline OldChurchGuy

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #213 on: January 11, 2014, 05:14:42 PM »
^I don't know is a perfectly acceptable answer to a direct question, OCG.  I wish more people were willing to admit that they didn't know for sure instead of trying to pretend that they do know (and digging themselves deeper).  I was really bad about that when I was younger - I would very often claim that I knew something that someone had just explained to me in order to avoid looking like I didn't know.

I wish more of the theists on this forum would take you as an inspiration of how to act.  Whatever I think about your theology, your humility about it is very impressive.

Approximately 30 years of teaching High School and Adult level Sunday School classes quickly taught me that "I don't know" was the only answer I had.  That and the follow up, "But I will look it up and get back with you".  Which I did because, quite often, I was intrigued with the answer also. 

Your kind words are truly appreciated.  With very very VERY few exceptions, the participants on this web site have been nothing but wonderful to exchange ideas and information with.

Sincerely,

OldChurchGuy
Be kind, for everyone you meet is fighting a great battle - Philo of Alexandria

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Offline DVZ3

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #214 on: January 11, 2014, 05:29:22 PM »
I find when reading threads like these with theists answering questions with the answer being god and inserting god into everything that would happen even without that added logic and complexity. Also, your never learning anything new. It's the same old story told over and over again like preprogrammed robots.

"Jesus died for your sins"
"he loves you...."

Ok, but what information does that leave you with really?  I'm not learning anything new about the universe but just accepting the program installed on so many other people.

Sorry if I don't accept your program as an acceptable answer to all of our toughest questions in life.  That great that you installed a program of knowledge based on the version the very same people were running without any of today's technology innovations to better inform us of how our universe actually works. The real knowledge and story is so much more complete and detailed than the book of Genesis and far more interesting even though we're still missing middle pieces of the puzzle to be sure.

But why would you want to accept the program that virtually programs you to deny solidified and ever more concrete theories like evolution? Why run a program where new knowledge may in fact challenge your program causing your robot circuits to short out and start stomping your feet like child that doesn't get their way... Like the very same program that can't even consider gays as equals in this beautiful thing we call life but because of your old program our society seemingly always has to fight and struggle for the real knowledge to gain any sort of traction or people's basic human rights being challenged because of people that claim a PERFECT god said so...  :-\

I questioned Christianity at a very early age but never actually wanted to come out sort of speak to my family for quite a while. It's very easy to play the robot as I did it and went to church, sang songs, clapped my hands etc... In the end I found and felt i was mimicking the program but knew that's all it was - other people mimicking the previous actions of others for generations and some have now have a very strong connection to it, I get that.

Anyways, what I find sad is from my personal experience talking with other "generic" majority Christians is that they don't want to bother to discuss theories of the big bang, evolution or other commonly accepted ideas as they just want to keeps things simple, like the program.

If you look at my sig below I find that many people just want to believe because it's an easier thought process. It's great to have Christian members like Old Church Guy, but I find he's a very, very rare breed of Christian that ever witnessed. I would think even he would agree with me on that...

If you read and actually understand the OP question please excuse me from really caring if and how you respond. I am most certain your post will come with no new information or angle that hasn't been used before by others. I am certain because again, you're seemingly a program running but use different language to the approach based on your own life's experience and observations which just happen to be different enough for discussion but theynare really all the same discussions heard before on this site.

I apologize up front if I've offended your program as its just an observation over time on this site.

Also, I just want to leave you with a final thought. Since you believe your god is perfect and you believe and love god, then you never have to really apologize for anything in life do you because he forgives you.  That's a very powerful program to be installed indeed. I could see why many find it appealing.



Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline DVZ3

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #215 on: January 11, 2014, 05:33:16 PM »
Wow, what a coincidence as I just seen the posts just after I wrote up mine... Point Exactly! I guess deep down more Christians would answer just "I don't know" vs the angle and/or program to know everything even if you have to make it up like a parent with a curious child.
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #216 on: January 11, 2014, 08:56:38 PM »
It is one thing to say that you believe someone to be wrong. It is another thing to say that you think they are stupid for believing what they believe. Or should I quote "Infantile".

Faith is just a warm fuzzy expression for what the concept really represents; credulousness. If someone believes something that is stupid, when I interact with that person regarding said subject, I will find them to be stupid. If that is the only interaction I have with that person, that will be the basis of my opinion of their intelligence and their character.

For example, their was a woman who I worked in the same building as me. While I am turned to by a lot of my co workers about a particular field of law, when I was stumped in the field, I turned to her. She didn't know squat outside of that field of law...but she had memorized the law book and most of the case law in that field. She was a kind, just, charitable, and a personable human being. She was also a young earth creationist. I think her belief in young earth creationism was, to put it bluntly, stupid. However, since she had so many other positive qualities and she had proven her knowledge in her specialty, it wasn't my opinion of her as a whole. However, if the only experience I had with her was her young earth creationism, my opinion of her would be just "she is stupid." And I would be justified in having that opinion, until such evidence was presented about her other qualities, or that I was mistaken about young earth creationism.







« Last Edit: January 11, 2014, 09:01:25 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline ralonx

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #217 on: January 11, 2014, 11:48:20 PM »
I just simply don't have time to respond to everything here. Seven patch you stated that you were frustrated how you couldn't get an answer about us judging God correct? We don't. The response about God's perfection came from Scripture. Which is inspired by God. So in a round-about way, God said it. Not me, nor Harbinger, God.

To further exemplify what I'm saying, another comment was about my response about God caring more about our spiritual well being than our physical. That is not me "giving Him my own personality". That comes from the Bible. Want an exact quote for that? Mark 9:43 " If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter into life maimed, rather than having two hands, to go to hell, into the fire that shall never be quenched—" Jesus' words, not mine.

Also on the topic of dodging questions, I found mine still not answered either? What do you people believe about the after life?

While we are also on the topic of not insulting and simply making observations, can I ask why all of the above responding people even care about any of this? If I start a forum about "Why don't fairies grant my wishes?" are any of you going to come over to it and start debating people? I would hope not. That would be a sorry waste of time because it's not even worth debating. IF I am some apparently infantile. IF I am so blind and ridiculous for believing something apparently so outrageously stupid, why are you guys wasting time you could be spending with your family and friends debating this stuff? You don't believe it. You don't even think it an intelligent belief system. Why do you care? Is it to try and squash beliefs in God? Why don't you set up a forum against Muslims, Buddhists, Voodoo, Hindus? Why just Christianity? Or is there a community for forums against those ones as well that I am not aware of. That's possible. I just don't get it. If it really is that dumb, why waste your time? I'm here cause I'm defending what I believe. Why are you here? Just food for thought is all.

Offline Traveler

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #218 on: January 12, 2014, 12:15:41 AM »
Ralonx, all atheism is, is a lack of god belief. You cannot make any other assumptions. That said, most, if not all, atheists do not believe in any afterlife. When our bodies die our consciousness ends. We no longer exist as anything but leftover parts.

As for this site, it was started by an american. America, these days, has become overrun with rightwing religious zealots in our government. They are trying to take us backwards in time, undoing much of the progress that was made during my lifetime. If christians would respect everyone else's rights there might not be a wwgha forum. But they don't. They try to impose their beliefs on everyone else. I, for one, will not stand for that.
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Offline DVZ3

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #219 on: January 12, 2014, 12:23:40 AM »
@ralonx

It's interesting so many theists come to this conclusion and ask this question and I'm surprised they can't understand why.  I've heard this one countless times, especially from my own family members.

Anyways, in short, it's because we seek the TRUTH? Why is this so difficult to comprehend!? :-\

Because it's nonsense that people believe this. More importantly, it's what controls today's politics and what is considered right/wrong, moral/immoral etc... Laws are made based on people believing nonsense. From stem cell research to birth control politicians use god as their high ground of authority on everything.

Also, to many theists, at least the ones I've known and met, the very thought of a person being an atheist makes them an evil person. These and many others are the very reason for the discussion and this site - to make people actually think and use deductive reasoning skills.
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #220 on: January 12, 2014, 12:24:59 AM »
I am so blind and ridiculous for believing something apparently so outrageously stupid, why are you guys wasting time you could be spending with your family and friends debating this stuff? You don't believe it. You don't even think it an intelligent belief system. Why do you care?

We've been asked this one many times. I am going to use an analogy and story I have put together

Quote
Imagine a popular fictional novel series came out, lets say The Harry Potter Series.

Now imagine that people everywhere started talking about said series and started forming organizations about discussing it. The organizations declare that Magic and Hogwarts really exist.

Everywhere you go there are people handing out fliers about "defence from the dark arts.” They even wake you up Saturday morning to try to convince you to join house Hufflepuff.

These organizations lobby for tax free status, and insist that schools acknowledge the existence of magic…and politicians who are part of the organizations grant it to them.

Magic is added to school textbooks.

In order for anyone to be taken seriously in politics they have to declare there allegiance to Hogwart’s.
 
Now when things happen, said politicians say “It's Dumbledore’s will.”

Wars are fought over the followers of House Gryffindore versus the followers of House Slytherin. People die for their faith in the books.

People regularly forsake medicine for magic. And whomever declares themselves a wizard and gets a wizard license is granted societal respect. They ask for donations for the further promotion of magic and get them.

Billions of dollars worth.

When you tell them It is just well written fiction” people snort about you being just a muggle, and some even declare you a dark wizard posing as a muggle. You even get slightly discriminated against, and find it hard to find a mate who doesn't think the books are real.

Now…imagine this going on for decades.

Would you be angry with the followers of the Harry Potter books? Make fun of them?
Of course you would.

Is it to try and squash beliefs in God? Why don't you set up a forum against Muslims, Buddhists, Voodoo, Hindus? Why just Christianity? Or is there a community for forums against those ones as well that I am not aware of. That's possible. I just don't get it. If it really is that dumb, why waste your time? I'm here cause I'm defending what I believe. Why are you here? Just food for thought is all.

Actually while Christians are the majority, we have had the occasional Jew and Muslim. They get the same treatment because all the questions apply equally.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline DVZ3

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #221 on: January 12, 2014, 12:41:48 AM »
@ralonx

Slavery took a few hundred years and generations of struggling for what's right and common sense to prevail. It's sad that a civil war where thousands had to lose their lives for this actually thinking about it today, but yes it happened. I take pride now to participate in the new "free the mind slaves" (at least from the very far right for now) knowing that even today, the new, younger generation with access to the internet and information will hopefully only take a few more generations for even more common sense to prevail.
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #222 on: January 12, 2014, 01:13:22 AM »
I am so blind and ridiculous for believing something apparently so outrageously stupid, why are you guys wasting time you could be spending with your family and friends debating this stuff? You don't believe it. You don't even think it an intelligent belief system. Why do you care?

We've been asked this one many times. I am going to use an analogy and story I have put together

Quote
Imagine a popular fictional novel series came out, lets say The Harry Potter Series.

Now imagine that people everywhere started talking about said series and started forming organizations about discussing it. The organizations declare that Magic and Hogwarts really exist.

Everywhere you go there are people handing out fliers about "defence from the dark arts.” They even wake you up Saturday morning to try to convince you to join house Hufflepuff.

These organizations lobby for tax free status, and insist that schools acknowledge the existence of magic…and politicians who are part of the organizations grant it to them.

Magic is added to school textbooks.

In order for anyone to be taken seriously in politics they have to declare there allegiance to Hogwart’s.
 
Now when things happen, said politicians say “It's Dumbledore’s will.”

Wars are fought over the followers of House Gryffindore versus the followers of House Slytherin. People die for their faith in the books.

People regularly forsake medicine for magic. And whomever declares themselves a wizard and gets a wizard license is granted societal respect. They ask for donations for the further promotion of magic and get them.

Billions of dollars worth.

When you tell them It is just well written fiction” people snort about you being just a muggle, and some even declare you a dark wizard posing as a muggle. You even get slightly discriminated against, and find it hard to find a mate who doesn't think the books are real.

Now…imagine this going on for decades.

Would you be angry with the followers of the Harry Potter books? Make fun of them?
Of course you would.

Is it to try and squash beliefs in God? Why don't you set up a forum against Muslims, Buddhists, Voodoo, Hindus? Why just Christianity? Or is there a community for forums against those ones as well that I am not aware of. That's possible. I just don't get it. If it really is that dumb, why waste your time? I'm here cause I'm defending what I believe. Why are you here? Just food for thought is all.

Actually while Christians are the majority, we have had the occasional Jew and Muslim. They get the same treatment because all the questions apply equally.

Your analogy is witty. Kudos I think you once posed it to me at least in part.

I think the question I find most interesting is while people like me are indeed here defending or faith. That's obvious.

Why are you here.. discussing the fine details of page 214 and how best to show the wizards of hogwarts that magic is fake? complete game plans... counterpoints to counterpoints discussed on various threads. Why? I ask again how is tthis not proselytizing for your (lack of) faith?
food for thought...
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline DVZ3

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #223 on: January 12, 2014, 01:14:49 AM »

^^^ Prayer doesn't work and neither do magic wands; it's really that simple.
Hguols: "Its easier for me to believe that a God created everything...."

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #224 on: January 12, 2014, 01:22:09 AM »
Why are you here.. discussing the fine details of page 214 and how best to show the wizards of hogwarts that magic is fake? complete game plans... counterpoints to counterpoints discussed on various threads. Why? I ask again how is tthis not proselytizing for your (lack of) faith?
food for thought...

Well you see, when a mom and a dad love each other very much...
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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #225 on: January 12, 2014, 01:24:21 AM »
@ralonx

Slavery took a few hundred years and generations of struggling for what's right and common sense to prevail. It's sad that a civil war where thousands had to lose their lives for this actually thinking about it today, but yes it happened. I take pride now to participate in the new "free the mind slaves" (at least from the very far right for now) knowing that even today, the new, younger generation with access to the internet and information will hopefully only take a few more generations for even more common sense to prevail.

This is an answer. An individual answer. A stand. I can respect that much. I guess it pleases you to know for some odd reason Homeland security named the fundamental Christian public enemy #1 in America. I think 2013. As a US soldier I can't pray with my men in public. I can't see my chaplain in public. Unless I'm NOT Christian. Christian services are canceled on many stateside bases. We are quickly being driven out by force. While other religions are allowed to stay. Maybe the "war" is not so far away.... This is Prophesy. Right in front of you. You are even part of it. The really sad thing is that you don't even know what i'm talking about.... Good luck! You will need it as the day approaches. To bad I don't believe in luck though. Only providence.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #226 on: January 12, 2014, 01:27:39 AM »
As a US soldier I can't pray with my men in public. I can't see my chaplain in public. Unless I'm NOT Christian.

Hogwash, you have the legal right to do such things, provided it does not use government resources and that you accept any consequences.

Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #227 on: January 12, 2014, 01:42:01 AM »
Your analogy is witty. Kudos I think you once posed it to me at least in part.

I think the question I find most interesting is while people like me are indeed here defending or faith. That's obvious.
Right.  It's human nature to continue to believe things even if we see evidence against them.

Quote from: harbinger77
Why are you here.. discussing the fine details of page 214 and how best to show the wizards of hogwarts that magic is fake? complete game plans... counterpoints to counterpoints discussed on various threads. Why? I ask again how is tthis not proselytizing for your (lack of) faith?
food for thought...
Because people like you constantly interfere with people like him, even if you don't realize it.  Not only that, but people like you interfere with the society we all live in, and try to foist your own narrow interpretation of your religion's rules off on everyone.  People like you consider people like him to be strange, deviant, even dangerous.  Trying to get people like you to stop causing problems for people like him is not proselytization, any more than if I spoke up against a group that I disliked.  I wouldn't be trying to promote some counter-group, and he isn't trying to promote atheism.  He's simply trying to keep people like you from interfering with people like him.

I don't know if he cares whether people become atheists or not.  I personally doubt it, but he'll have to answer this for himself.  I just think he wants religious beliefs to no longer be treated as the 'default', and effectively pushed on everyone whether they share those beliefs or not.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #228 on: January 12, 2014, 02:17:30 AM »
@ralonx

Slavery took a few hundred years and generations of struggling for what's right and common sense to prevail. It's sad that a civil war where thousands had to lose their lives for this actually thinking about it today, but yes it happened. I take pride now to participate in the new "free the mind slaves" (at least from the very far right for now) knowing that even today, the new, younger generation with access to the internet and information will hopefully only take a few more generations for even more common sense to prevail.

This is an answer. An individual answer. A stand. I can respect that much. I guess it pleases you to know for some odd reason Homeland security named the fundamental Christian public enemy #1 in America. I think 2013. As a US soldier I can't pray with my men in public. I can't see my chaplain in public. Unless I'm NOT Christian. Christian services are canceled on many stateside bases. We are quickly being driven out by force. While other religions are allowed to stay. Maybe the "war" is not so far away.... This is Prophesy. Right in front of you. You are even part of it. The really sad thing is that you don't even know what i'm talking about.... Good luck! You will need it as the day approaches. To bad I don't believe in luck though. Only providence.

This is certainly true. Biblical prophecy coming true today should be all the proof atheists need. It is dishonest to ignore what a book says just because you have a prejudice against the book.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #229 on: January 12, 2014, 02:20:50 AM »
This is certainly true. Biblical prophecy coming true today should be all the proof atheists need. It is dishonest to ignore what a book says just because you have a prejudice against the book.

Riiiiiight, end of the world from some war is coming so soon.

*puts on tinfoil hat*

I will be back, just need to make sure the government is not spiking my water tap.
Rule 1: No pooftas. Rule 2: No maltreating the theists, IF, anyone is watching. Rule 3: No pooftas. Rule 4: I do not want to see anyone NOT drinking after light out. Rule 5: No pooftas. Rule 6: There is NO...rule 6.

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #230 on: January 12, 2014, 02:21:02 AM »
Hogwash, you have the legal right to do such things, provided it does not use government resources and that you accept any consequences.

Maybe. But Hollywood would never make a movie making fun of Muhammad. But, making movies that make fun of Jesus are a dime a dozen.

No doubt the culture has an unhealthy hatred for Christianity, but not the other religions. The reason is that the truth stings. Everyone knows Islam is false, so nobody cares about it.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #231 on: January 12, 2014, 02:23:05 AM »
This is certainly true. Biblical prophecy coming true today should be all the proof atheists need. It is dishonest to ignore what a book says just because you have a prejudice against the book.

Riiiiiight, end of the world from some war is coming so soon.

*puts on tinfoil hat*

I will be back, just need to make sure the government is not spiking my water tap.

Stop engaging in reductio ad absurdum.

It's not a conspiracy if there's proof.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)