Author Topic: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?  (Read 25566 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1256
  • Darwins +132/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • I'm Your Nurse, Not Your Waitress...
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #58 on: July 21, 2013, 07:12:52 PM »

For example: "What colour is your car?"
Quote
My car isn't red, its a mystery.

I once had a car who's color was "bondo."
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline SkyWriting

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
  • Darwins +9/-75
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #59 on: July 22, 2013, 05:14:20 AM »
You were born into a world where God does not walk.
Does not walk but can walk?  Or absolutely can't walk?I thought this God is Almighty  :? What a pathetic God full of quirky foibles - like self-limiting Himself to just the one Son as well.It's all nonsense folks  :police: - and theists are making it up as they go along  &)

In that post I said " This fits your observations to a tee."
Now if you can SUPPORT other observations, do so.
Because your evaluation of reality lacks.

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2228
  • Darwins +73/-90
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #60 on: July 22, 2013, 06:08:44 AM »
I hear you, junebug. You are very frustrated with the responses that you get from some people on this board. Your final sentence is the source of the problem: "there are no direct answers".

If that is so, then there is not much that religious, god-believers or theists of whatever stripe can say to us. They all should stop telling us that we like sinning or just don't understand reality or hate god, or are stupid or arrogant or going to hell, etc. They should stop preaching and proselytizing. They should stop passing laws that discriminate against us. Because if there are no direct answers to our questions, there can't be any wrong answers, either.

We are as right as you are--maybe more right than you are because we at least have scientific facts and observed reality on our side instead of fleeting personal feelings, ancient magic stories and superstitions that can't be true.

When societies base their policies on gods, magic and feelings, people live until 45 and die of easily preventable causes. When societies apply rational science and reality-based ideas, everyone is far better off. We have the global evidence to prove it--just compare life in "godless" Japan or Sweden to life in god-heavy Bangladesh or Afghanistan.

So, we are pretty darn frustrated, too. Most of the progress that human beings have achieved is because some people were brave enough to ignore the ancient magic books and superstitions. We have to live in a world where the answers to many of the world's problems are clear, but we are surrounded by people who say, "there are no direct answers".

But who still benefit every day from the direct answers produced by people like us. :P

Frustrated is not the word I would use, sad is. 

More right than me.  This may be so.  I believe the same things you do plus God.  Why?  Because I feel my spirit inside.  Life is too precious/complex.

Magic=A great big planet full of life from an explosion.

There is a difference between "direct" answers and "no" answers.  My point was some questions on this topic can not be answered directly.  It takes a more philosophical answer.

I get the point of the OP.  I really do.  I wish people didn't believe some of the stuff they do. 

To change their minds, I believe it will take kindness and empathy. Love.   
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #61 on: July 22, 2013, 07:54:46 AM »
Is this the thread to get into those things?

Mmm.  Possibly not.  But, then again, I guess it will be hard for anyone to counter my question without us getting into a discussion of their faith in order that they can then demonstrate the direct answers to the questions being asked.

With that in mind.....I wonder what will be the answers to my next post?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #62 on: July 22, 2013, 07:57:10 AM »
If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments.  It would be clear and obvious to all.  The fact that it isn't may not necessarily mean there isn't a god out there.  But it sure makes it clear that there is something seriously wrong with the picture.

You hit the nail on the head.
1. God walked with Adam in the Garden.
2. Adam was removed from the Garden and the gateway was set with guards.
3. You were born outside of the garden where God walked.

You were born into a world where God does not walk.  Setting up a communication
channel is hard work, mentally speaking.  This fits your observations to a tee.

Unfortunately, none of that gels with a god who - we are told - (a) loves us, and (b) desperately wants a relationship with him.  Anyone I want a relationship with, I will not kick out of my house and set guards on the door for starters. 

But more importantly - and I hate to break this to you - but I am talking about a GOD.  Not someone with a couple superpowers and a nifty hat, but a GOD.  A being who is above all the petty laws of existence, a being for whom reality conforms to his wishes.  Such a being would be so clear, so obvious, that there would be no argument.  Such being could - if it chose - be in constant communication, simultaneously, with every being in its creation.

You are describing the original creation as the scriptures tell it.  Then then came a time where
man was banished from the garden and guards were stationed at the gate.  Anyone born after that was born into a sin world.  Sin is separation from God, so the two cannot be the same.

Sorry, not understanding your point.  Perhaps you could clarify a couple things?

Does your god desire a relationship with me?
Is your god capable of altering reality at will?
Is "sin" a state of being that your god is incapable of ....defeating, for want of a better word?  Are you saying that sin is something like BO, that your god abhors so much that he simply cannot get close enough to us while we have it?  Apoologies for that analogy, I'm trying to grok what you are saying.

I was suggesting that for a GOD (as I would understand a god), who wants a relationship with me (as I would understand a relationship), there would be no barriers, no problems.  We would be having a 2-way conversation as and when, as easy as if I had his personal mobile number.  My suggestion is clearly NOT the case, so I am trying to understand why.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2228
  • Darwins +73/-90
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #63 on: July 22, 2013, 08:06:37 AM »
^Indeed.  Junebug, you have to remember that people like Anfauglir have been dealing with theists who have stated that they know "the truth" for years.  Yet they haven't actually been able to articulate any details about that truth, anything that would support it.  Indeed, when they try, it degenerates into a mess of beliefs, rationalizations, and subjective feelings.

But you'd be wrong to call them "believer haters".  I get some of that from a person who I argue with in comment threads relating to the local newspaper - he keeps saying I hate him because I strongly disagree with what he says, disapprove of much of it, and get frustrated with his intransigence.  To him, the mere fact that I disagree, disapprove, and get frustrated 'proves' that I hate him - he takes my comments and attributes a personal spin to them, which he interprets as hatred.  That sounds an awful lot like what you're saying about Anfauglir and others.

Now Jaime I don't put you in the believer hater category.  I have not gotten that impression from everybody here.  I have, however, gotten it from some.  Just look at some of the ridiculous thumbs down Darwins I've received. 

I know it's not easy to love someone who thinks you're a sinner condemned to hell but that is what it will take to change the world; LOVE.  It will take LOVE and a whole lot of it. ;)

Got Love?

Hello Anfauglir.  How have you been?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline Mooby

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1202
  • Darwins +75/-24
  • So it goes.
    • Is God Imaginary?
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #64 on: July 22, 2013, 10:18:03 AM »
Mmm.  Possibly not.  But, then again, I guess it will be hard for anyone to counter my question without us getting into a discussion of their faith in order that they can then demonstrate the direct answers to the questions being asked.
This is certainly true, and I don't mind giving a few short answers to fairly simple questions.

However, the issues nogodsforme raised are a bit more complex and my personal approach is a bit unfamiliar, especially given my relative agnosticism compared to most other Christians.  In addition, I tend to intentionally slow pace my responses for various reasons (including making it easier to reply to several people at once and/or to more easily address assumptions about my views I feel are inaccurate), so the discussion would likely become quite lengthy.

So while I'm sure you expected to have a few side discussions, I'm not as sure that you're expecting something of the scope I'm predicting.  Which is why I asked.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6888
  • Darwins +927/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2013, 04:47:42 PM »
I don't expect people to give their entire life stories here. I guess my main question is how you came to decide that what you believe about god and/or religion is true. Is there a straightforward way to explain that?  :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Mooby

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1202
  • Darwins +75/-24
  • So it goes.
    • Is God Imaginary?
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #66 on: July 22, 2013, 05:22:13 PM »
I don't expect people to give their entire life stories here. I guess my main question is how you came to decide that what you believe about god and/or religion is true. Is there a straightforward way to explain that?  :?
Possibly.  I can give you several divergent yeses:
  • My knowledge and my life experiences lead me to gestalt conclusions;
  • I didn't - that's why I'm agnostic - maybe they are all illusions;
  • I've never found any good reason to believe they're not true;
  • If it's true that God is dead then is He possibly necessary too?
  • The strength of my conviction is rooted in contradiction;
  • Or maybe it is all my personal predilection.

There, several straightforward answers, all accurate and yet self-contradictory.  Going past those will put us deep into "no" territory.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6888
  • Darwins +927/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #67 on: July 22, 2013, 05:38:43 PM »
I have to say you made me smile with "possibly" in response to my question: Is there a straightforward way to explain [how you came to decide your beliefs were true]  :?

You managed to be straightforward and not at the same time, with one word! I have to remember that for future reference. Who says the internet isn't educational? ;)

And you did it in rhyming couplets, yet. Mooby, you are one of a kind.

If I had time I would take on #3....the rest are beyond my pay grade.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Mooby

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1202
  • Darwins +75/-24
  • So it goes.
    • Is God Imaginary?
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #68 on: July 22, 2013, 06:00:43 PM »
If I had time I would take on #3....the rest are beyond my pay grade.
#3 is actually the most deceptively simple of the bunch.  Just ask Admiral Ackbar.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline jaimehlers

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5095
  • Darwins +586/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #69 on: July 22, 2013, 08:31:09 PM »
I've found that when I do give a simple, direct answers, atheists tend to not accept them because they're not the answers they were looking for, and they keep asking more convoluted questions to get the answer they want until the answers become convoluted as well.

When you believe and have faith - I believe and I have faith is the answer; but it is deemed unacceptable.
I quoted both because I think the context is necessary.  But here's the simplest way I can put it.  Faith is not an answer.  I don't mean that it isn't an acceptable answer, I mean that it simply isn't an answer at all.  Fundamentally, faith is an opinion, because it's impossible to prove or confirm.  Even the firmest, staunchest faith cannot prove or confirm that it is correct, and that means that it isn't an actual answer.  It can be used as an answer, just as you can answer a question with a question, but it is hardly a satisfying or acceptable one.

In essence, atheists are asking why you believe something - that is to say, what reason you have to believe it.  Saying "I believe and have faith" doesn't actually answer the question.  You're just saying that you believe and have faith that you're correct, you're not answering why you believe and have faith.  In other words, if someone is trying to get a factual answer out of you, answering with an opinion isn't going to work.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6888
  • Darwins +927/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #70 on: July 22, 2013, 08:45:12 PM »
If I had time I would take on #3....the rest are beyond my pay grade.
#3 is actually the most deceptively simple of the bunch.  Just ask Admiral Ackbar.

Ask him what? If religion is a TRAP? :o
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Mooby

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1202
  • Darwins +75/-24
  • So it goes.
    • Is God Imaginary?
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #71 on: July 22, 2013, 09:08:28 PM »
Faith is not an answer.  I don't mean that it isn't an acceptable answer, I mean that it simply isn't an answer at all.  Fundamentally, faith is an opinion, because it's impossible to prove or confirm.
Faith is not an opinion, at least in how religious people generally define it.  Faith is a religious synonym for "trust," specifically as it pertains to a relationship with a deity.  Thus, it is a decision.  Critics of theism tend to use the definition of "belief without evidence/proof," but this is not an accurate assessment of most believers' experiences of it.

Of course, you may very well claim that a decision made based on belief is not an acceptable answer to why that belief is held.  Which is both true and not true: it's true in that faith does not explain the source of the belief, but false in that it provides the mechanism through which that belief is held.

To me, this indicates a difference in priority rather than a failure to provide a direct answer.  As Lori points out, for the believer this is the simplest, direct, most accurate explanation - but it's not what the skeptic wants.  The skeptic wants the epistemological basis for that belief, which to most believers is self-evident.  Thus, I think that many believers only think to parse the part of the question dealing with why the belief is held, to which the simplest answer is "faith."

Quote
In essence, atheists are asking why you believe something - that is to say, what reason you have to believe it.  Saying "I believe and have faith" doesn't actually answer the question.  You're just saying that you believe and have faith that you're correct, you're not answering why you believe and have faith.  In other words, if someone is trying to get a factual answer out of you, answering with an opinion isn't going to work.
I'm not sure why you quoted me in your post, other than the fact that I objected to the OP's premise.  My answer in that quote did not mention faith, and you'll note that I preemptively ignored myself when responding to nogodsforme by not mentioning faith at all because I like breaking my own rules.

I see what you're saying about context, but it seems like your answer was more directed at Lori than me.  I didn't even have faith in mind when I made that post.  Perhaps it's because I'm a bit less forum naive than many of the theists brought in by the YouTube videos, or perhaps it's because I'm weird.  I dunno.

If I had time I would take on #3....the rest are beyond my pay grade.
#3 is actually the most deceptively simple of the bunch.  Just ask Admiral Ackbar.

Ask him what? If religion is a TRAP? :o

If #3 is a trap, obviously.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline colin040

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 14
  • Darwins +1/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #72 on: September 06, 2013, 02:11:49 PM »
Well I just had a chat with my grandfather and uncle about religion (started with the guy who tried to convert me, I made a topic about this) and...they just can't give me a straight to the point and simple answer. I asked the same question regarding world war II

''So what if you'd have a jew hiding in your basement and nazis asked you if you kept jews here? What would be the right thing to do here?''

Grandfather: ''Save the jew ofcourse! Jesus said to help others too. It's not so much about the rules of religion. it's about the way Jesus wanted you to live your life!''

Me: ''But you also mentioned before lying IS a sin. So what is it? Also, aren't you know trusting your instinct over your religion's teaching? Don't you also think the 2 things you just mentioned quite contradict eachother here? Should the jew be helped or shouldn't you sin and be honest in this scenario? If lying is always a sin, wouldn't this be bad according to your faith?''

Granfather: ''Hmm...I don't know really. It's a hard question you know. Jesus wants you to help others!''

Or with my uncle:

Uncle: ''you see, you shouldn't take the bible literally. Also, the 10 commandments are very, very hard to live up to. I don't think people could do these days. Don't take it all from one side you know! You probably won't understand us because you don't have the christian faith in you''

Me: ''Why? not? Aren't these the rules of your religion. Also, how do you know your not suppose to take these rules literally? Aren't you now trusting your own instinct over your faith?

...And it just went on and on. My uncle told me my questions were well asked cause he along with his father just couldn't give a straight reply. Funny enough my grandfather thinks I'm just as good as a christian cause ''it's not about that, its about living a good life. You won't go to hell for that.''

Seems like they make their own versions up of their faith and just decide what to agree with and how.


Offline Greatest I am

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 406
  • Darwins +10/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #73 on: September 06, 2013, 05:58:58 PM »
Christians do not answer well because they have to try to hide the fact that they have a double standard of morality. One for God who somehow is forgiven for doing things that believers say is evil if done by men.

That is quite sick on their part.

Regards
DL
 

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6888
  • Darwins +927/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #74 on: September 06, 2013, 10:43:26 PM »
They can't explain another problem-- why they don't accept the exact same arguments they use when they come from believers in other religions.

Like, if you accept the miracles in the bible, why not believe the supernatural magic in the Quran or the Gita? Why believe in healings, but only if they are attributed to the Christian god? Can all those Hindu and Muslim healings be false? There is the same amount of factual evidence for all of it, ie none. So on what basis can you believe that Jesus actually rose from the dead, but that Muhammed never rode a white horse to the moon?  :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Betelnut

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 154
  • Darwins +13/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #75 on: September 07, 2013, 12:31:59 AM »
I think it is because a vast majority of believers haven't really examined their beliefs therefore, if pressed, they are not able to articulate the what/how/who/why of it all.

Online Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12708
  • Darwins +337/-85
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #76 on: September 07, 2013, 12:41:32 AM »
They can't explain another problem-- why they don't accept the exact same arguments they use when they come from believers in other religions.

Like, if you accept the miracles in the bible, why not believe the supernatural magic in the Quran or the Gita? Why believe in healings, but only if they are attributed to the Christian god? Can all those Hindu and Muslim healings be false? There is the same amount of factual evidence for all of it, ie none. So on what basis can you believe that Jesus actually rose from the dead, but that Muhammed never rode a white horse to the moon?  :?

Doesn't the bible say somewhere about false gods? So, wouldn't their religions be false, too?

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Greatest I am

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 406
  • Darwins +10/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #77 on: September 07, 2013, 04:18:20 PM »
I think it is because a vast majority of believers haven't really examined their beliefs therefore, if pressed, they are not able to articulate the what/how/who/why of it all.

Exactly. They do not follow their religions at all. They follow tradition and culture first and the religion is just an add on.

Few people, when push comes to shove, are stupid enough to believe in talking animals or 70 virgins waiting for us in heaven regardless of what they say.

Regards
DL


Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #78 on: September 08, 2013, 01:21:12 AM »
Just to reiterate, the original questions wasn't "why are believers incapable of being direct" (although that IS a side issue!), but rather:

"Why does the nature of an allegedly good god require so much apologetic twisting to describe?  Surely a truly good god would enable direct and definite answers on all aspects of itself?"
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Greatest I am

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 406
  • Darwins +10/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #79 on: September 08, 2013, 09:44:59 AM »
Because the nature of God is said to be unfathomable yet those in religion are always talking about what they fathom of a God whom they also say is unfathomable.

IOW. Believers want us to believe B. S. that cannot ever be proven to be true.

Regards
DL


Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2756
  • Darwins +222/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburgerâ„¢
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #80 on: September 08, 2013, 10:08:31 AM »
''But you also mentioned before lying IS a sin. So what is it?

Just a technical point.

Is lying a sin? The law is about bearing false witness, which is a court/perjury issue. It's a sin for people to conspire against another to convict them of something. However, it's not mentioned in any other context. So, it's OK to lie your arse off, as long as you are not in court.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline bertatberts

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1446
  • Darwins +52/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • Humanists. Not perfect. Not forgiven. Responsible.
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #81 on: September 09, 2013, 05:41:00 AM »
When you lie, you are bearing (giving) false witness.

If you took something, but said you didn't when asked, then you are giving a false testimony, or false witness, about yourself. if you do it about another person you are giving a false testimony, or false witness, about them.  So bearing false witness whatever way you swing it, is lying.
Yet it only becomes a sin if you are of a religious persuasion.
« Last Edit: September 09, 2013, 05:42:43 AM by bertatberts »
We theists have no evidence for our beliefs. So no amount of rational evidence will dissuade us from those beliefs. - JCisall

It would be pretty piss poor brainwashing, if the victims knew they were brainwashed, wouldn't it? - Screwtape. 04/12/12

Offline Greatest I am

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 406
  • Darwins +10/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #82 on: September 09, 2013, 10:19:54 AM »
''But you also mentioned before lying IS a sin. So what is it?

Just a technical point.

Is lying a sin? The law is about bearing false witness, which is a court/perjury issue. It's a sin for people to conspire against another to convict them of something. However, it's not mentioned in any other context. So, it's OK to lie your arse off, as long as you are not in court.

Rather a crappy moral position.

Should the labelling of something as a lie or not, not depend on whether harm is intended or not?

If I tell my wife I like the crappy tie she bought me for Xmas, there is not harm or malice intended and I would not call that a lie.

If I tell my wife something is safe knowing she will hurt herself because of what I said, then that is definitely a lie.

You might want to educate yourself on the base of our common law. The Latin term, mens rea.

It basically determines if person is guilty of a sin or crime that has been committed.

Regards.
DL
 

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3950
  • Darwins +265/-7
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #83 on: September 09, 2013, 10:54:22 AM »
If there was a truly good and godly god, it would be clear.  No nagging doubts, no endless arguments....

I saw a sign outside a church the other day; it read:  "Feed your faith, and your doubts will starve to death".  To the theist/believer, this adage sounds good, makes sense, and something to strive for.  Unfortunately, they do so with the false idea that "faith" is a good thing.  I think that a good working definition for faith is: "The effort to believe that which you know is not true".

And added to that, they feel that doubt is a bad thing, when in fact (as other adages suggest):

"Modest doubt is the beacon of the wise"

"Doubt is the mother of all knowledge."


"Feed your credulousness, your ability to notice that our pronouncements don't match with facts will starve to death"
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6888
  • Darwins +927/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #84 on: September 09, 2013, 02:37:16 PM »
Church signs are the worst (best?) examples of illogical nonsense. They drive me bonkers. Fortune cookies make more sense. &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline harbinger77

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 345
  • Darwins +0/-15
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #85 on: December 31, 2013, 12:22:13 AM »
I was directed here by Andy S. He wanted me to read the question in post #1.

I don't want to read ALL of this. I read randomly, and was not able to answer my own question.

Has any theist of any type ever tried to answer the original question of this thread?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Mooby

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1202
  • Darwins +75/-24
  • So it goes.
    • Is God Imaginary?
Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #86 on: December 31, 2013, 12:31:18 AM »
No, because the question in the subject and the only question in the OP are both loaded questions. A few of us have responded with various comments about why we reject the loaded questions. 
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.