Author Topic: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?  (Read 19260 times)

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #638 on: January 17, 2014, 05:16:35 PM »
Sincere Hindus, sincere Rastas and sincere Muslims also have real encounters, healings and blessings from their gods. Only insincere atheists don't. Wonder why that is.  &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline median

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #639 on: January 17, 2014, 06:29:41 PM »
God is supernatural.
Humans are natural.
Therefore humans cannot interact with God.
Therefore God can interact with humans.

Blark-Schmarbelfarben is Uber-Goober. Does that make any sense? Same goes with your statement above. There is no reason for thinking anything is "supernatural" and hence that term has no meaning. ALL of our experience is of the natural world. If you think you have something more than that, then why not actually demonstrate it instead of just saying so.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #640 on: January 18, 2014, 01:49:10 AM »
Sincere Hindus, sincere Rastas and sincere Muslims also have real encounters, healings and blessings from their gods. Only insincere atheists don't. Wonder why that is.  &)

I would like everyone to notice this post and see how the atheists don't listen to what we have to say!

This has been answered ad infinitum, but I will explain again!

Other faiths have visions because they are demons. Atheists don't get the proof they are looking for because God does not show up to people who are not seeking Him. It is the same reason you don't show up at people's houses uninvited and take off your shoes and kick back on their couch.

Plus, I am LIVING PROOF that if you start seeking God, you will find Him because I used to be an atheist.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #641 on: January 18, 2014, 01:53:51 AM »
God is supernatural.
Humans are natural.
Therefore humans cannot interact with God.
Therefore God can interact with humans.

Blark-Schmarbelfarben is Uber-Goober. Does that make any sense? Same goes with your statement above. There is no reason for thinking anything is "supernatural" and hence that term has no meaning. ALL of our experience is of the natural world. If you think you have something more than that, then why not actually demonstrate it instead of just saying so.

The universe began about 13.8 billion years ago according to cosmologists. Note the word "BEGAN." This means something outside of nature caused it. This is called the supernatural. The natural can not create itself out of nothing. They even say that space and time began as well. So we have time, space, and the universe with a beginning.

Since God is eternal, God is only a cause and not an effect. God needs no cause because God is not an effect. The universe is an effect, and effects need causes.

The "eternal universe" model is obsolete because of their research that the universe has a beginning. Anyone who believes in an eternal universe is intellectually dishonest.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #642 on: January 18, 2014, 03:17:24 AM »
Sincere Hindus, sincere Rastas and sincere Muslims also have real encounters, healings and blessings from their gods. Only insincere atheists don't. Wonder why that is.  &)

I would like everyone to notice this post and see how the atheists don't listen to what we have to say!

This has been answered ad infinitum, but I will explain again!

Other faiths have visions because they are demons.

And as you have been asked ad infinitum, how do you empirically tell that a demon is a demon?  You're saying here that these demons can give  the impression of a benevolent god.  Very well.  So what proof do you have that every healing, blessing and encounter in the bible was not similarly carried out by a demon?

BTW, I did spot your careful linguistic dodge from nogods "encounters, healings and blessings" to your preferred alternate of "visions" - hence I've restored his original words for you to answer.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #643 on: January 18, 2014, 04:16:54 AM »
Plus, I am LIVING PROOF that if you start seeking God, you will find Him because I used to be an atheist.

No, you are proof that delusions can be very persuasive.
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Offline bertatberts

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #644 on: January 18, 2014, 06:36:14 AM »

Plus, I am LIVING PROOF that if you start seeking God, you will find Him because I used to be an atheist.
And that would be an lie. Once you revert back to sensible, you don't return to nonsense.
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #645 on: January 18, 2014, 08:23:02 AM »
Atheists don't get the proof they are looking for because God does not show up to people who are not seeking Him. It is the same reason you don't show up at people's houses uninvited and take off your shoes and kick back on their couch.

Thought that he loves us and wants a relationship with us?

Thought he was supposed to be "knocking on the door of your heart"?

JW's and Mormons come knocking on my door uninvited, cause they want me to go to thier church. Big difference there. Your analogy is the equivelant of Jesus just barging his way into your heart without knocking first. ie. Forcing you to become a Christian against your will. 

Good job dodging Nogodsforme's post about, "encounters, healings and blessings," and just calling it visions. Oooh! the doctor had a  'vision' of my incurable cancer disappearing! All the tests show conclusively that it's gone, but it's just a 'vision!'  :?

Plus, I am LIVING PROOF that if you start seeking God, you will find Him because I used to be an atheist.


And we're just supposed to take your word that the Earth is flat as well? Delusions of grandure.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #646 on: January 18, 2014, 09:29:46 AM »
The universe began about 13.8 billion years ago according to cosmologists. Note the word "BEGAN." This means something outside of nature caused it.

No, not exactly.  It could be a natural cause.  You shifted gears.  You have conflated something external to the known universe as "supernatural" and that is not exactly accurate.


Since God is eternal,

Whoa. Hold on there slim.  You just jumped from "outside the universe" to "supernatural" to "god" in three sentences without any kind of support or linkage.  Come on, man.  Do better than that.

God is only a cause and not an effect. God needs no cause because God is not an effect. The universe is an effect, and effects need causes.

Says you.  Tell me how you know this and why I should believe it too.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #647 on: January 18, 2014, 11:14:04 AM »

God is only a cause and not an effect. God needs no cause because God is not an effect. The universe is an effect, and effects need causes.

Says you.  Tell me how you know this and why I should believe it too.


That made sense to you? "God is a cause..." but "God needs not be a cause..."; "The universe needs causes..." and then the whole "not effect" spiel? But then he says, "[the universe] needs causes" -- not 'a' cause but causes… I swear he rambles about things he doesn't have a clue on. Makes things up as he goes.

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Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #648 on: January 18, 2014, 12:15:12 PM »
Says you.  Tell me how you know this and why I should believe it too.

That is the very definition of the word. It would be like asking, "How do I know that bachelors aren't married?" or "How do I know a cheeseburger has cheese on it?"
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Offline skeptic54768

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #649 on: January 18, 2014, 12:17:03 PM »

Plus, I am LIVING PROOF that if you start seeking God, you will find Him because I used to be an atheist.
And that would be an lie. Once you revert back to sensible, you don't return to nonsense.

Ah yes, the "no true atheist" fallacy.
Maybe we're not so different after all.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - Jesus (said 2,000 years ago and still true today.)

Online SevenPatch

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #650 on: January 18, 2014, 12:47:03 PM »
"How do I know a cheeseburger has cheese on it?"

A cheeseburger should have cheese on it.  When I order a cheeseburger from a resteraunt, I expect there to be cheese on it.

So if God is only a cause and not an effect, perhaps you can show me God so I can check to make sure there is no effect?

Oh right, I have to seek God to find God.  I can seek to find a cheeseburger fairly easily yet finding God is so difficult.  Ah but you say it is easy.  Well it is also easy to be mistaken too.  Is it wrong to check just to be certain?  Is it wrong to check under the bun to make sure there is cheese?  If you take a bite out of the cheeseburger and don't taste the cheese, wouldn't you check?
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Offline bertatberts

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #651 on: January 18, 2014, 01:20:39 PM »

Plus, I am LIVING PROOF that if you start seeking God, you will find Him because I used to be an atheist.
And that would be an lie. Once you revert back to sensible, you don't return to nonsense.

Ah yes, the "no true atheist" fallacy.
Nonsensical!
Maybe we're not so different after all.
The only similarity is, we are the same specie. Anything else you consider similar is purely your imagination! And we know how strange that is don't we.
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Offline MadBunny

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #652 on: January 18, 2014, 01:47:46 PM »
I dub this: Skeptic54768's Cheeseburger variant of St. Anselm's proof.



Quote from: The Great Wiki
Anselm's argument in Chapter 2 can be summarized as follows:

1 Our understanding of God is a being than which no greater can be conceived.
2 The idea of God exists in the mind.
3 A being that exists both in the mind and in reality is greater than a being that exists only in the mind.
4 If God only exists in the mind, then we can conceive of a greater being—that which exists in reality.
5 We cannot imagine something that is greater than God.
6 Therefore, God exists.


God is supernatural, duh.
If stuff exists then god must exist since stuff had to come from somewhere.
A being greater than my personal imagination must exist in reality, and not just in my mind since my mind can't imagine it.
Cheeseburgers have cheese, therefore god.

Therefore God.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 01:55:03 PM by MadBunny »
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #653 on: January 18, 2014, 01:55:31 PM »
I would like everyone to notice this post and see how the atheists don't listen to what we have to say!
I think you have the wrong verb there.  It's not that atheists don't listen to what you have to say, but that they reject what you have to say because you don't ever provide anything but your opinion.  It would be as if you said, "bananas are fruits made by demons, but apples are fruits made by God," but never showed that either demons or gods existed.

Quote from: skeptic54768
This has been answered ad infinitum, but I will explain again!

Other faiths have visions because they are demons. Atheists don't get the proof they are looking for because God does not show up to people who are not seeking Him. It is the same reason you don't show up at people's houses uninvited and take off your shoes and kick back on their couch.
This has been explained ad infinitum, but I will try again.

You've never proved that your own faith is based on anything that actually exists.  And even if you did somehow manage to prove that the basis for your faith actually existed, you would then have to prove exactly what it was that your faith was based on.  For all we know, your faith is a demon too - just a smart, polite demon.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Plus, I am LIVING PROOF that if you start seeking God, you will find Him because I used to be an atheist.
The only thing you're living proof of is that a person can come up with a belief and then hang onto it with a death grip no matter what anyone else says.

The universe began about 13.8 billion years ago according to cosmologists. Note the word "BEGAN." This means something outside of nature caused it. This is called the supernatural. The natural can not create itself out of nothing. They even say that space and time began as well. So we have time, space, and the universe with a beginning.
Actually, cosmologists do not say that the universe began 13.8 billion years ago.  What they say is that the entire universe was contained in a very small space (and was very hot) 13.8 billion years ago, but they don't know what happened before then.  A number of people have theorized that the universe began then, but there's no evidence whatsoever to prove that, so it's speculation.  That means the rest of what you said necessarily does not follow, since it was all predicated on what you thought cosmologists were saying.

Quote from: skeptic54768
Since God is eternal, God is only a cause and not an effect. God needs no cause because God is not an effect. The universe is an effect, and effects need causes.
None of this is proved, however.

Quote from: skeptic54768
The "eternal universe" model is obsolete because of their research that the universe has a beginning. Anyone who believes in an eternal universe is intellectually dishonest.
Actually, we don't know that for sure, for the simple reason that we simply do not know if the universe actually had a beginning.  All we can reasonably say for sure is that the current expansion of the universe had a beginning, but we don't know what might have come before that.

By the way, before you claim that your god is eternal, don't you think that you should prove your god exists?  That's a kind of intellectual dishonesty too; you're inventing attributes for your god without proving that he actually has those attributes (and I don't mean logical proofs - you can prove anything with logic, even things that clearly cannot work in the real world).  For that matter, without having demonstrated that he exists at all.

Offline Nam

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #654 on: January 18, 2014, 01:55:54 PM »
Damn! Now I'm hungry for a cheeseburger. Damn you people! It's 13 miles to the nearest fast food restaurant.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Online SevenPatch

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #655 on: January 18, 2014, 01:58:37 PM »

Plus, I am LIVING PROOF that if you start seeking God, you will find Him because I used to be an atheist.
And that would be an lie. Once you revert back to sensible, you don't return to nonsense.

Ah yes, the "no true atheist" fallacy.
Nonsensical!
Maybe we're not so different after all.
The only similarity is, we are the same specie. Anything else you consider similar is purely your imagination! And we know how strange that is don't we.

Bert, I have to disagree with you.  Skeptic is right, you used the "No true Scotsman" logical fallacy.

Someone could very well be an atheist for nonsensical reasons (maybe they're angry with their former god, maybe they didn't really understand theism, maybe they left their church so they thought they were an atheist, maybe they redefined the word atheism).

Really, the heart of the matter is that what skeptic said, doesn't really prove anything.  We need details.

Off topic:  I find it hilarious that this is the first thing skeptic has said that I agree with out of the probably more than hundred posts of his that I've read.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #656 on: January 18, 2014, 02:01:58 PM »
And that would be an lie. Once you revert back to sensible, you don't return to nonsense.
You're conflating atheism and being sensible.  Atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods.  It has nothing to do with being sensible or not, as there can be non-sensible atheists.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #657 on: January 18, 2014, 02:03:20 PM »
Damn! Now I'm hungry for a cheeseburger. Damn you people! It's 13 miles to the nearest fast food restaurant.

-Nam

The solution is simple.

1) Find consumable food item in your pad.
2) Define that item as 'cheeseburger'.
  2a) 'The food item I want is a cheeseburger.'
  2b) 'This food item that I have in my hand is something I want.'
  2c) 'Ergo, by the transitive property of magic, the food item in my hand is a cheeseburger.'

3) Profit!
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Offline Nam

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #658 on: January 18, 2014, 02:19:17 PM »
Damn! Now I'm hungry for a cheeseburger. Damn you people! It's 13 miles to the nearest fast food restaurant.

-Nam

The solution is simple.

1) Find consumable food item in your pad.
2) Define that item as 'cheeseburger'.
  2a) 'The food item I want is a cheeseburger.'
  2b) 'This food item that I have in my hand is something I want.'
  2c) 'Ergo, by the transitive property of magic, the food item in my hand is a cheeseburger.'

3) Profit!


I originally was going to cook me some brussel sprouts (spiced soaked in butter) but now I want a cheeseburger.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline bertatberts

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #659 on: January 18, 2014, 03:45:32 PM »
Bert, I have to disagree with you.  Skeptic is right, you used the "No true Scotsman" logical fallacy.
Where!
Someone could very well be an atheist for nonsensical reasons (maybe they're angry with their former god,
The he isn't an atheist.
maybe they didn't really understand theism,
Then, has he really become atheist.
maybe they left their church so they thought they were an atheist,
Then they were only imagining they were atheist.
maybe they redefined the word atheism).
Which would not make them atheist(without god), would it. Excuse me, But I'm shocked, it seems as an atheist you do not actual understand what atheist means.

And that would be an lie. Once you revert back to sensible, you don't return to nonsense.
You're conflating atheism and being sensible.  Atheism is simply the lack of belief in gods.  It has nothing to do with being sensible or not, as there can be non-sensible atheists.
Not disputed!  However atheists by definition are more sensible than someone that believes in fairies, gods, demons, the supernatural. So no I'm not conflating it.

Edit: Poor spelling
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 04:50:55 PM by bertatberts »
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Offline Backspace

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #660 on: January 18, 2014, 04:23:18 PM »
Atheists don't get the proof they are looking for because God does not show up to people who are not seeking Him.

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Offline xyzzy

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #661 on: January 18, 2014, 04:34:29 PM »
I dub this: Skeptic54768's Cheeseburger variant of St. Anselm's proof.
Quote from: The Great Wiki
Anselm's argument in Chapter 2 can be summarized as follows:

1 Our understanding of God is a being than which no greater can be conceived.
2 The idea of God exists in the mind.
3 A being that exists both in the mind and in reality is greater than a being that exists only in the mind.
4 If God only exists in the mind, then we can conceive of a greater being—that which exists in reality.
5 We cannot imagine something that is greater than God.
6 Therefore, God exists.


God is supernatural, duh.
If stuff exists then god must exist since stuff had to come from somewhere.
A being greater than my personal imagination must exist in reality, and not just in my mind since my mind can't imagine it.
Cheeseburgers have cheese, therefore god.

Therefore God.

Damn! Now I'm hungry for a cheeseburger. Damn you people! It's 13 miles to the nearest fast food restaurant.

-Nam

The solution is simple.

1) Find consumable food item in your pad.
2) Define that item as 'cheeseburger'.
  2a) 'The food item I want is a cheeseburger.'
  2b) 'This food item that I have in my hand is something I want.'
  2c) 'Ergo, by the transitive property of magic, the food item in my hand is a cheeseburger.'

3) Profit!


Except that this fails to consider the Argument From Hypolactasia.

Being genetically predisposed, i.e. designed, to being unable to process lactose, I cannot possibly conceive of eating a cheeseburger. I have no memory of ever successfully consuming one - ever. Immediately, then, the argument becomes questionable.

Further, as the Great Oracle of WikiWiki informs us, a human's ability to process lactose decreases with age. Other things that are generally accepted as coming with age are increased awareness of the real world and wisdom.

Therefore the Argument From a Cheeseburger becomes less compelling the more one becomes wise and aware of reality.

Thus god does not exist other than in the minds of the young and those with Wonky Reasoning.TM
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 04:53:27 PM by xyzzy »
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #662 on: January 18, 2014, 05:04:23 PM »
Not disbuted!  However atheists by definition are more sensible than someone that believes in fairies, gods, demons, the supernatural. So no I'm not conflating it.

I dunno man.  One can both simultaneously reject the claim 'god exists' and be a Raelian for example.

That would be an atheist whose sensibilities would appear to be on par with someone who believes in fairies, gods, demons, and the supernatural.

There are many other bulls**t concepts out there besides 'existence of a deity'.  Disbelief in one is far too little evidence to necessarily assume that such an individual possess superior sensibility in disregarding unprovable buffoonery.  Certainly if I am uncertain of what all of their beliefs truly are.

Honestly, that may seem a little pedantic, but in response to a claim denoted with 'by definition', pedantry is necessary.
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #663 on: January 18, 2014, 05:19:44 PM »

Other faiths have visions because they are demons.
That's what other faiths say about your faith... who's right and why?

Quote
Plus, I am LIVING PROOF that if you start seeking God, you will find Him because I used to be an atheist.
If you were an atheist and are not now, you never were an atheist...
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline screwtape

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #664 on: January 18, 2014, 07:11:31 PM »
Says you.  Tell me how you know this and why I should believe it too.

That is the very definition of the word. It would be like asking, "How do I know that bachelors aren't married?" or "How do I know a cheeseburger has cheese on it?"

1. you skipped over most of my post without comment.  Should I take that as implicit agreement?  If you agree, I would prefer you made it explicit.  If you do not agree, I would appreciate if you rebutted by arguments or ask for clarification.
2. your reply is confusing.  To what word are you referring?
3. your causality is backward.  A cheeseburger is called a cheese burger because it has cheese.  It does not have cheese because it is defined that way.

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Offline bertatberts

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #665 on: January 18, 2014, 08:05:47 PM »
Not disbuted!  However atheists by definition are more sensible than someone that believes in fairies, gods, demons, the supernatural. So no I'm not conflating it.

I dunno man.  One can both simultaneously reject the claim 'god exists' and be a Raelian for example.

That would be an atheist whose sensibilities would appear to be on par with someone who believes in fairies, gods, demons, and the supernatural.

There are many other bulls**t concepts out there besides 'existence of a deity'.  Disbelief in one is far too little evidence to necessarily assume that such an individual possess superior sensibility in disregarding unprovable buffoonery.  Certainly if I am uncertain of what all of their beliefs truly are.

Honestly, that may seem a little pedantic, but in response to a claim denoted with 'by definition', pedantry is necessary.
If anybody believes in the supernatural in any way, be it aliens, fairies, gods, etc. Then it is doubtful that they are atheist, they may be atheist in the same sense that a Christian is atheist to the Hindu gods, and vice versa. But would you class that as atheist, or just a nonbeliever.
Atheism have more of a meaning today than it did in the past, it is synonymous with good sense today. Yet it has it origins in non-believe. We are all born without god, but you cant really call a baby an atheist, it hasn't understood the meaning of it yet.
Atheism is come too, mostly through education and good sense. This is why people revert back to it from the indoctrination they had received. They don't revert back by becoming dumber do they, they do through wisdom.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?
« Reply #666 on: January 18, 2014, 08:24:32 PM »
Quote from: bertaberts
Not disputed!  However atheists by definition are more sensible than someone that believes in fairies, gods, demons, the supernatural. So no I'm not conflating it.
With all due respect, yes you are.  There is nothing - nothing at all - keeping an atheist from having beliefs in, say, space aliens, alternate dimensions, alternate timelines, or whatever other science fantasy you can pull out of a hat, because atheism solely means lack of belief in gods.  Indeed, there's nothing stopping an atheist from believing in magic, the fae, dragons, demons, or whatever fantasy term you can pull out of a hat, for the same reason.  By trying to exclude anyone who does believe in those other things - but not gods - from being an atheist, you're basically declaring that they aren't really atheists.  Because even though they fulfill the only actual requirement for being an atheist, not believing that gods exist, you're deciding that they aren't actually atheists because they believe in other things that you've tied to belief in gods.  Like faeries, demons, and the supernatural, as you showed above.
« Last Edit: January 18, 2014, 10:31:54 PM by jetson »