Author Topic: Zimmerman Verdict  (Read 13230 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #116 on: July 18, 2013, 06:19:47 AM »
Now if Zimmerman would come out and make a statement that went something like the following, I would be sort of satisfied, except for the dead guy part:

Even if Zimmerman wanted to make such a statement, it's highly unlikely that his lawyer would ever let him.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #117 on: July 18, 2013, 07:55:05 AM »
Is this really just Popular Kid vs. Fat Kid? 

He wasn't fat then.  He gained about 100 lbs between the shooting and the trial.
http://www.chron.com/news/article/Accused-Trayvon-Martin-killer-George-Zimmerman-4623602.php
http://healthblog.dallasnews.com/2013/06/how-in-the-world-did-george-zimmerman-gain-120-pounds-in-16-months.html/


Also, let's take Zimmerman's side of the story with a large grain of salt.  He's already been shown to be a conniving liar.  I know, that doesn't mean everything he says is a lie.  But if he's willing to lie for money, he's probably willing to lie to stay out of jail.  I find him to be an untrustworthy little shit.
http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2012/06/george_zimmerman_jailhouse_calls_codes_money.php
http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2012/06/01/prosecutors-say-zimmerman-hid-second-passport-lied-about-money.html  (also, look how skinny he is in this photo)
http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/2012/06/18/12284954-zimmerman-spoke-to-wife-in-code-from-jail-to-hide-assets-prosecutors-allege?lite

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Online ParkingPlaces

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #118 on: July 18, 2013, 09:50:57 AM »
Now if Zimmerman would come out and make a statement that went something like the following, I would be sort of satisfied, except for the dead guy part:

Even if Zimmerman wanted to make such a statement, it's highly unlikely that his lawyer would ever let him.

You are of course correct. Zimmerman wouldn't do it. And lawyers, with no knowledge of either honesty or the truth, wouldn't even know what he was talking about. So they certainly wouldn't let him say those things.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #119 on: July 18, 2013, 09:57:37 AM »
Now if Zimmerman would come out and make a statement that went something like the following, I would be sort of satisfied, except for the dead guy part:

Even if Zimmerman wanted to make such a statement, it's highly unlikely that his lawyer would ever let him.

You are of course correct. Zimmerman wouldn't do it. And lawyers, with no knowledge of either honesty or the truth, wouldn't even know what he was talking about. So they certainly wouldn't let him say those things.

That's not even why I said that.  My point was that, although the criminal aspect of this whole mess is over with, civil matters may still pend, and if Zimmerman were to make a public statement such as the one you envision, it would likely encourage Martin's family to file a wrongful death action against him (if, indeed, they aren't already planning to do so, which may well be the case).  Even the greenest lawyer would know that for Zimmerman to make such a statement could only work to his detriment and never to his benefit.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #120 on: July 18, 2013, 10:58:57 AM »
If what the reenactment shows was what truly happened, then it's hard to find fault in either Zimmerman or Martin for defending himself. (Start at the 2:15 mark.)

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2c9_1372546233

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #121 on: July 18, 2013, 12:24:49 PM »
Now if Zimmerman would come out and make a statement that went something like the following, I would be sort of satisfied, except for the dead guy part:

Even if Zimmerman wanted to make such a statement, it's highly unlikely that his lawyer would ever let him.

You are of course correct. Zimmerman wouldn't do it. And lawyers, with no knowledge of either honesty or the truth, wouldn't even know what he was talking about. So they certainly wouldn't let him say those things.

That's not even why I said that.  My point was that, although the criminal aspect of this whole mess is over with, civil matters may still pend, and if Zimmerman were to make a public statement such as the one you envision, it would likely encourage Martin's family to file a wrongful death action against him (if, indeed, they aren't already planning to do so, which may well be the case).  Even the greenest lawyer would know that for Zimmerman to make such a statement could only work to his detriment and never to his benefit.

piano, I know. Legal matters are far to complex for my mind. Having never had to use a lawyer for anything except one land purchase, my view of the whole system is both distorted and uninformed. And I prefer keeping it that way til they catch me.  :)
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #122 on: July 18, 2013, 12:34:47 PM »
piano, I know. Legal matters are far to complex for my mind. Having never had to use a lawyer for anything except one land purchase, my view of the whole system is both distorted and uninformed. And I prefer keeping it that way til they catch me.  :)

I know what you mean.  I've never been married, have no children, never been in a car wreck, never bought a house or anything else like that, so my need for legal advice in life has been minimal.  The closest I ever came was that girl in college who lied to me about me getting her pregnant and tried to extort a wad of cash from me.  If she had actually been pregnant, it would have been a real mess and I definitely would have needed a legal eagle, but since she was lying about the pregnancy, I escaped from the whole situation relatively unscathed.  At least compared to some people I know.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Nick

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #123 on: July 18, 2013, 12:39:08 PM »
Seems odd.  Zippy started the whole thing by ignoring the 911 operator who told him not to follow the kid.  Zippy was the aggressor but at some point he became the victim and then had the right to defend himself.  You almost need a score card for fights so you can know when it is alright to kill someone.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #124 on: July 18, 2013, 01:49:56 PM »
Whomever happens to be winning at the particular moment you are talking about is the aggressor.  It can be fluid.  Had Martin a gun, and had he survived Zimmerman's initial volley, he could have returned fire in self defense.  At least, that is how it seems to sound to me.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #125 on: July 18, 2013, 02:53:20 PM »
The whole thing is a mess. And I am afraid that many people in the US will assume that it is now open season on anyone they think is suspicious, like I said in my earlier [facetious, okay, for any future prosecutorial purposes] remarks about women driving around looking for threatening-looking men to confront and shoot.

I remember being paranoid when I was walking my dogs at night right after the incident happened. If  some guy got out of a car and approached me, what the hell was I supposed to think? That they were clearly up to no good and I should take whatever defensive action I could manage.

In such a scenario, it seems like the person who reacts in the most violent way ends up the winner. Even if there was no real threat.  :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Truth OT

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #126 on: July 18, 2013, 04:56:12 PM »
Zippy started the whole thing by ignoring the 911 operator who told him not to follow the kid.  Zippy was the aggressor but at some point he became the victim and then had the right to defend himself.  You almost need a score card for fights so you can know when it is alright to kill someone.

According to what Zims told the laws, that was not exactly the case. Look at his reenactment with investigators the day following the fatal encounter. The video in the link tells a different story than what has been propagated (start at the 2:15 mark).

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=2c9_1372546233

Offline Tero

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #127 on: July 19, 2013, 06:37:13 AM »
Them guns are effective for communicating. Most times the the othe party does not talk back. Fists are not nearly as effective

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #128 on: July 19, 2013, 08:55:11 AM »
Them guns are effective for communicating. Most times the the othe party does not talk back. Fists are not nearly as effective
More like effective for shutting down conversations.

Online shnozzola

Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #129 on: July 19, 2013, 08:13:38 PM »
President Obama:

Quote
"You know, when Trayvon Martin was first shot, I said that this could have been my son.  Another way of saying that is Trayvon Martin could have been me 35 years ago. And when you think about why, in the African- American community at least, there's a lot of pain around what happened here, I think it's important to recognize that the African- American community is looking at this issue through a set of experiences and a history that -- that doesn't go away."



« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 08:16:09 PM by shnozzola »
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Online LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #130 on: July 19, 2013, 08:52:43 PM »
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline William

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #131 on: July 19, 2013, 11:18:36 PM »
President Obama:
.....

Great moment of leadership there.
Context is important. Looking for improvements is important.
I'm not even American but I was lifted by what Obama said.

There are even greater contexts where many innocent people end up dead or suffering almost every day - not just regrettable like Trayvon's case - but an ongoing outrage for which we are all somewhat guilty of not doing enough about.  Global poverty. Wars. Refugees. Victims of natural disasters.  It's a long list with massive trail of snuffed out human potential.  It's off topic ... except is it?
Git mit uns

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #132 on: July 20, 2013, 07:51:45 PM »
The gun was on his side on the inside of the pants, probably as far back as he could still grab it as he "apprehended" his "suspects." By rolling a bit to one side he could free it.

But he is still an idiot. Too many prospective gun owners are idiots.

Now we estimate 300 000 patriots in Illinois to get concealed permits. So they can dare to take their kids to the movies.
I am one of them. Now that I know people suspicious of me can stalk and murder me for no reason and get off scott free, I have no choice but to shoot first.

Offline Nick

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #133 on: July 20, 2013, 10:08:12 PM »
We are lucky to have a man like Obama who can articulate a subject and put a personal tone to it for all to identify with.  The right naturally can't see that point.  Their heads are too far up their ass.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Online LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #134 on: July 21, 2013, 03:09:16 AM »
Have been thinking about men I have known at the 17 year old stage in their lives and how they may have fared against GZ.  Whether their dress code would have sparked his suspicion.  Whether they were the type to have punched him or said "Hi, how ya doin'?" Whether or not they may have lived through the encounter.  Just food for thought.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #135 on: July 21, 2013, 12:32:13 PM »
I worked with mentally handicapped kids many moons ago, and there was one who was about 17, a big, strapping, non-verbal white guy with a mental age of 6 years. He would quietly walk up behind you and stand very close, looking over your shoulder to see what it was you were doing, just like a curious first grader.

The first time I turned around and found myself nose to nose with this enormous grown man, I freaked out. After that it became funny because he was so harmless and actually cute.

My heart breaks for people like guy this in a world where any idiot (not just trained police officers) feels that they have the right to demand that innocent, law-abiding individuals conform to their personal codes of appropriate behavior, or risk being shot dead. :'(
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #136 on: July 21, 2013, 02:02:16 PM »
One of the things that gets me is the number of people who are trying to argue that Martin was physically imposing.  He was 5'11", roughly 160 pounds; Zimmerman was 5'8", roughly 200 pounds.  It's not impossible that Martin could have knocked Zimmerman down and kept him on the ground, but it is a bit surprising.

Offline Nick

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #137 on: July 21, 2013, 02:43:31 PM »
Well, you have to realize that the "right" / FOX News has been working to vilify Martin since this thing happened.  He went from a kid going to the store to a thug drug dealer who Zippy did society a favor by getting rid of.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #138 on: July 21, 2013, 03:01:47 PM »
I am quite amazed, although I shouldn’t be, about the fuss. http://www.ijreview.com/2013/07/66730-charles-barkley-the-voice-of-reason-on-the-zimmerman-case/ (Loripinkangel) and http://news.yahoo.com/zimmerman-jury-better-able-judge-fate-162313256.html (pianodwarf) tells ypu all you need to know.

I got as far as “With the grace and dignity with which they [Martin’s family] have dealt with the entire situation” from Obama’s speech, when I shouted to myself, "the point is that they didn’t!" From the start they were not going to accept anything other than a guilty verdict. None of them knew the facts, or if they did, they discarded them.

I saw nothing from the family but “I am a victim” “a white man has shot Trayvon and this is racism”. This is idiocy of the first order. It was compounded by a remark made by the mother before the verdict that God would punish Zimmerman if the court did not.

Certainly, you are never happy when a child/sibling is shot dead but there is a requirement for a trial. Once the trial is over, that is it.

I see reports on the Boston Bomber and how his family think that it is all a conspiracy by the US against Muslims.

What the hell is wrong with people? Someone’s son is the mass murderer, someone’s son is the psychopath, someone’s son is the guy who did it.

And now Obama steps in on the act in a crude and transparent, unworthy attempt to win votes. “I said, this could have been my son.” No he did not! It could not have been “his son” any moiré than it could have been my son. Sons are sons, some are arseholes, some are law abiding – Obama’s and mine are law abiding and not given to attacking people.

Quote
Sanford Police Department (SPD) investigator Chris Serino, for instance, said publicly of Martin, “This child has no criminal record whatsoever.” He called Martin “a good kid, a mild-mannered kid.” The media almost universally sustained this tragically false narrative.
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/04/police-buried-trayvons-criminal-history/#hD7e1v1MxMv1lryJ.99

But then we read,

Quote
“Oh, God, oh, my God, oh, God,” one major reportedly said when first looking at Martin’s data. He realized that Martin had been suspended twice already that school year for offenses that should have gotten him arrested – once for getting caught with a burglary tool and a dozen items of female jewelry, the second time for getting caught with marijuana and a marijuana pipe.
Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2013/04/police-buried-trayvons-criminal-history/#hD7e1v1MxMv1lryJ.99

That report begins:

Quote
Jesse Jackson brought this nonsense home to Sanford during a large April 1, 2012, rally. He implied that Martin had been profiled by his high school for being a black male and suspended for the same reason. “We must stop suspending our children,” Jackson told the crowd.

Al Sharpton had already climbed on the band-wagon and was stirring up divisions.

The fact that there is a discussion is bad. It implies that there might be something in the claims of white racism both in the killing and the verdict, when it is nothing more than a refusal of the family to accept responsibility.

This is the worst sort of pandering to racial troublemaking. If you don’t believe me, change the names to A and B, look at the evidence and tell me that the jury was wrong not to bring in a guilty verdict.

If you’re really bothered that someone hasn't been locked up, keep you eyes on the news, you will find blacks, whites, Asian, etc all being shot and all being sent down for life.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #139 on: July 21, 2013, 03:38:42 PM »
I don't know why the victim's school record or photos on his phone is all that relevant to what happened that night. He was not the person with a gun. He did not follow or shoot anyone. He might have been defending himself. Yet he is considered by many to be the bad guy!

I have a young relative (age 14) who is now using drugs-- smoking weed.  He has been suspended twice for it. He has been picked up by the police at 4am and brought home. His parents are having nervous breakdowns over this-- they have tried everything sort of chaining him to his bed. They are afraid to leave him unsupervised. They are spending money they don't have on lawyers and counselors. He is behaving very, very stupidly. He is an immature idiot. If he survives, he will probably grow out of it; most people do. (Both of his parents smoked weed at his age...)

He has gone from little sweet kid to big drug-using sweet kid.  He has never to our knowledge stolen anything, been in a fight or done anything more violent than play awful video games. I have never even heard him curse. I have no idea if he has photos of guns or gangsta rappers on his phone. But if he does, that will be used against him if some a$$hole decides to shoot him for being out late and looking suspicious.  :-\
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #140 on: July 21, 2013, 04:38:25 PM »
With all due respect, Graybeard, WND is not what I would consider moderate or unbiased.  What it is, is an extremist conservative website which promotes a fundamentalist Christian approach to news (at least according to Rational Wiki - so take that with a grain of salt).  The WND article you quoted is not what I would consider a reliable source for evidence about the Martin-Zimmerman case.  What it is, is a commentary - essentially, an opinion editorial.  Op-eds are not necessarily vetted or fact-checked the same way that actual news articles are.

Regarding Trayvon Martin's school suspensions (what you apparently think should have been his criminal record), the most recent one was for being found carrying a baggie that was believed to contain marijuana residue.  Notably, they did not actually find marijuana - they found a bag that the school officials believed had formerly contained marijuana and a "marijuana pipe" (notably, the quote marks are present in every single news article which mentions it, suggesting that it might not have been confirmed).  And regarding the jewelry and "burglary tool" (a screwdriver), first off, he was suspended for writing graffiti on a locker - school officials found the jewelry and screwdriver in his bag when they searched it.  The police did in fact investigate the jewelry in question and could not tie any of it to any reported thefts.

It's pretty clear that the WND op-ed you cited had already decided Martin was guilty as sin - for burglarizing women's jewelry, for possessing drug paraphernalia - and that he should have been arrested by the police both times, but the actual facts of the case don't support his interpretation of events.  It's questionable whether he could even have been justifiably arrested on drug charges (which doesn't even touch on the whole issue of whether he should have been), but it is for sure and certain that there was no cause for arresting him for theft.  And that makes the rest of the op-ed's argument questionable.

Online LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #141 on: July 21, 2013, 06:43:42 PM »
I don't know if anyone already said this but bringing up anything in Trayvon's past and saying it was somehow less wrong for Zimmerman to shoot him is similar to saying it is less wrong for a man to stalk and then shoot a woman because she is a prostitute or was dressed provocatively.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Spit

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #142 on: July 21, 2013, 07:36:07 PM »
I don't know if anyone already said this but bringing up anything in Trayvon's past and saying it was somehow less wrong for Zimmerman to shoot him is similar to saying it is less wrong for a man to stalk and then shoot a woman because she is a prostitute or was dressed provocatively.
Dumbest post in the history of the internet. Congrats.  :blank:

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #143 on: July 21, 2013, 08:16:20 PM »
Dumbest post in the history of the internet. Congrats.  :blank:
I thought it was a pretty good post, myself.

Online LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Zimmerman Verdict
« Reply #144 on: July 21, 2013, 08:37:51 PM »
Dumbest post in the history of the internet. Congrats.  :blank:
I thought it was a pretty good post, myself.

Considering that my entire life has crumbled before my eyes recently, criticism from someone who refers to himself as "Spit" and who's entire repertoire of posts on this forum makes Wayne and Garth look like geniuses I find this inconsequential.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.