Author Topic: Jesus on slavery  (Read 1570 times)

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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Jesus on slavery
« on: July 09, 2013, 06:32:55 PM »
Is there anywhere in the NT (any version) where Jesus opposes slavery. If he does not is it still acceptable to be a slave master?(wage slavery ?). The NT is less preachy about slavery,but still seems to endorse it as a good thing.

 The OT endorses slavery,by not referencing slavery as a negative thing,the NT,Jesus included,should it still be ok?

 This is not a complete thought add to is as you see fit.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2013, 06:42:23 PM »
Is slavery objectively wrong?
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline John 3 16

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2013, 07:08:28 PM »
Hi! 12 Monkeys!!

Long time no see. you still work at Canadian bakery?

Anyway.

Is there anywhere in the NT (any version) where Jesus opposes slavery.
Jesus focused on who we are slaves to rather than just the system of slavery.

Jesus replied, "Very truly I tell you, everyone who sins is a slave to sin. (John 8:34)

And he said he came to set us free.
 
So if the Son sets you free, you will be free indeed. (John 8:36)

So slavery must have been considered "not a good thing" for Jesus.

The NT is less preachy about slavery,but still seems to endorse it as a good thing.
a good thing? where?
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Offline Nick

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2013, 08:49:29 PM »
Don't give the GOP/FOX News any ideas.  They already want to take us back to the typewriter days.  Next they will want to return to slavery.  Hell, the way wages are going we are kind of there now.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline John 3 16

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2013, 10:14:56 PM »
Don't give the GOP/FOX News any ideas.  They already want to take us back to the typewriter days.  Next they will want to return to slavery.  Hell, the way wages are going we are kind of there now.
^^ My father was a mortgage slave.
How about you?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2013, 12:22:51 AM »
Is slavery objectively wrong?
explain,,,,as in ethnic groups subjecting other ethnic groups to it?? ownership of a slave as in  chattel "ownership"? Wage slavery as in some of the right to work laws in the states? Blood diamonds?

 I was more talking about "ownership" of another person,Jesus hardly objected to it. There is modern slavery,but not "ownership" I was asking about.

 John 3;16 that's hardly an answer. I asked if Jesus was pro or con on the slavery thing. I don't really care if he has an interest in who we are slaves to,more to the point on if he was OK with it.
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 12:25:34 AM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2013, 12:28:42 AM »
Is slavery objectively wrong?
Not to God as far as I can tell... your opinion?
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Offline sun_king

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2013, 12:53:21 AM »
<snip>
 I was more talking about "ownership" of another person,Jesus hardly objected to it. There is modern slavery,but not "ownership" I was asking about.

 John 3;16 that's hardly an answer. I asked if Jesus was pro or con on the slavery thing. I don't really care if he has an interest in who we are slaves to,more to the point on if he was OK with it.

12 Monkeys, you may have effectively closed out any further responses from Christians. Their standard response is stating that we are all slaves and so whats the big deal about slavery. When specified that it is ownership of another person, they go silent. With the ambiguity removed they have no plausible explantion on why the modern world contemptously discarded the slavery their god and god's son endorsed.

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #8 on: July 10, 2013, 12:56:02 AM »
Is slavery objectively wrong?


 I was more talking about "ownership" of another person,Jesus hardly objected to it. There is modern slavery,but not "ownership" I was asking about.


Yes, that's pretty much what I have in mind also.
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #9 on: July 10, 2013, 01:01:05 AM »
Is slavery objectively wrong?
Not to God as far as I can tell... your opinion?

I'm not really sure. I think slavery conjures images of someone being whipped daily and given bread and butter after working for 16 hours each day. I think its objectively wrong to be cruel.

Hmm.

I'll have to think this one through and get back to you.

Meanwhile...you didn't actually answer my question directly...
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Online Azdgari

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #10 on: July 10, 2013, 01:02:12 AM »
Your question is incoherent as asked.  A yes or no answer would not be meaningful, any more than a yes or no answer would be meaningful to a question you posed as gibberish.
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #11 on: July 10, 2013, 09:02:46 AM »
Your question is incoherent as asked.  A yes or no answer would not be meaningful, any more than a yes or no answer would be meaningful to a question you posed as gibberish.
Yes I realize that,I said it was an incomplete thought,if you wish to make it more clear,that would be great
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #12 on: July 10, 2013, 09:28:59 AM »
Is slavery objectively wrong?

Does depend on what you define "slavery" to be, but in general terms....yes.

Slavery, even leaving aside the whips and whatnot, essentially means involuntary complete subjugation to the dictates of another.  Doesn't matter how lovely that person is, it is the "involuntary" side of things that is wrong.

To be a slave means that you must do what your master tells you, even if if horrifies or disgusts you or you feel it is wrong: you are a slave, you have no choice.  To remove the option of refusal, in slavery, is what makes it wrong, as it reduced the human being to the level of an animal - less than that, even, to the level of an object.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online Azdgari

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #13 on: July 10, 2013, 10:02:58 AM »
Yes I realize that,I said it was an incomplete thought,if you wish to make it more clear,that would be great

I was talking to magicmiles.

Is slavery objectively wrong?

Does depend on what you define "slavery" to be, but in general terms....yes. ...

You do a good job of explaining why it's wrong with respect to our values.  Not why it's objectively wrong.  Nor could you.
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Offline John 3 16

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #14 on: July 10, 2013, 10:17:40 AM »
To remove the option of refusal, in slavery, is what makes it wrong, as it reduced the human being to the level of an animal...snip
According to the theory of evolution, aren't both of those come from the same ancestor?
So according to your logic who believes in evolution, what makes us humans more special than animals?

Again, with your logic, what is the difference between keeping a monkey as your pet vs keeping another human as a slave.

Or slaughtering a cow for some good steak vs killing another man for money.  :police:
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #15 on: July 10, 2013, 01:00:58 PM »
^^ My father was a mortgage slave.
How about you?
What precisely do you mean by a mortgage slave?

According to the theory of evolution, aren't both of those come from the same ancestor?
So according to your logic who believes in evolution, what makes us humans more special than animals?

Again, with your logic, what is the difference between keeping a monkey as your pet vs keeping another human as a slave.

Or slaughtering a cow for some good steak vs killing another man for money.  :police:
You know what the real problem here is?  You're mistaking a scientific theory for a moral code.  Evolution doesn't suggest that humans are more special than animals, that it's alright to keep a monkey as a pet or a human as a slave, or that it's alright to kill a cow for its meat versus killing a human for their money.  Evolution only states "that which survives, reproduces".  An organism that has a survival advantage will be more likely to survive long enough to reproduce than one which lacks that advantage.

And that's all that evolution means.  It isn't a moral code; evolution doesn't justify behaviors.  It simply explains why they might have come about.  It doesn't say the first thing about whether one behavior is better than another, except in the single context of "does the behavior make this organism more likely to survive so that it can reproduce and pass on its genes?".

You would do better to ask Anfauglir what the moral basis of his statement was than to ask how evolution justifies behaviors.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #16 on: July 10, 2013, 01:33:20 PM »
Or slaughtering a cow for some good steak vs killing another man for money.  :police:
I note that you do not suggest slaughtering people for food. Unlike the Bible:

DEU  28:53 And thou shalt eat the fruit of thine own body, the flesh of thy sons and of thy daughters, which the LORD thy God hath given thee, in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee:
54 So that the man that is tender among you, and very delicate, his eye shall be evil toward his brother, and toward the wife of his bosom, and toward the remnant of his children which he shall leave:
55 So that he will not give to any of them of the flesh of his children whom he shall eat: because he hath nothing left him in the siege, and in the straitness, wherewith thine enemies shall distress thee in all thy gates.
56 The tender and delicate woman among you, which would not adventure to set the sole of her foot upon the ground for delicateness and tenderness, her eye shall be evil toward the husband of her bosom, and toward her son, and toward her daughter,
57 And toward her young one that cometh out from between her feet, and toward her children which she shall bear: for she shall eat them for want of all things secretly in the siege and straitness, wherewith thine enemy shall distress thee in thy gates.


But then if God had not wanted people to eat people, he wouldn't have made people out of meat.

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #17 on: July 10, 2013, 03:00:55 PM »
Your question is incoherent as asked.  A yes or no answer would not be meaningful, any more than a yes or no answer would be meaningful to a question you posed as gibberish.

A yes or no answer can be expanded upon. I fail to see how the question is incoherent. Difficult to answer, certainly. I think that makes it a good question, one that provokes further discussion.

Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Xero-Kill

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #18 on: July 10, 2013, 03:33:09 PM »
Is slavery objectively wrong?

Does depend on what you define "slavery" to be, but in general terms....yes.

Slavery, even leaving aside the whips and whatnot, essentially means involuntary complete subjugation to the dictates of another.  Doesn't matter how lovely that person is, it is the "involuntary" side of things that is wrong.

To be a slave means that you must do what your master tells you, even if if horrifies or disgusts you or you feel it is wrong: you are a slave, you have no choice. To remove the option of refusal, in slavery, is what makes it wrong, as it reduced the human being to the level of an animal - less than that, even, to the level of an object.

Bold: To highlight the portion I find hard to understand.

While I agree with most of what you said there; I disagree with the idea that any person can EVER be made to do something involuntarily. Even if the consequence of disobedience is immediate death, the option to dissent remains... always. The ONLY person that can enslave you, is you, by allowing another person to dictate your actions. If one allows themselves to become subjugated it is THEY that is making the decision to comply. Resistance is always an option. To me, it seems axiomatic. You might allow your fears to override your desire for freedom, but that doesn't change the fact that you CAN resist, always.

How does one "remove your option of refusal?"

EDIT: Spelling
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 04:09:57 PM by Xero-Kill »
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2013, 03:39:22 PM »
Your question is incoherent as asked.  A yes or no answer would not be meaningful, any more than a yes or no answer would be meaningful to a question you posed as gibberish.

A yes or no answer can be expanded upon. I fail to see how the question is incoherent. Difficult to answer, certainly. I think that makes it a good question, one that provokes further discussion.

I agree with Azdgari that the question itself is incoherent.  I do not agree that a 'yes or no' answer would not be meaningful.

The incoherency stems from the very concept of objective morality.  At least if a required aspect of objectivity is complete independence from subjective perspective.  One of the bare minimum requirements for any scenario that allows for any discussion on ethics is the presence of subjective entities.  No one discusses the moral merits or lack therein of stepping on a rock - not unless they're extrapolating consequences on subjective entities.  Ergo, 'objective wrong' has no meaning.

But is that really what we mean when we bring up 'objective morality'?  Well, I don't really know exactly.  Which is why I think a 'yes or no' answer would be meaningful; when answering 'yes or no' one necessarily has to explain what it is by what they mean by 'objective morality'.  I mean I guess they don't have to explain that, but without any explanation the 'yes or no' really is meaningless.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2013, 04:59:02 PM »
How does one "remove your option of refusal?"
"Obey or die."  When the choice becomes whether to obey and continue living, or to refuse and be killed, most people will 'choose' to obey.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2013, 12:53:09 AM »
The civil war in the USA is a good example of what religious people thought about slavery. The south thought owning slaves was a God given right. The north,may still be religious more or less during this time were more progressive and did not view slavery in the same light.

 Southerners did not view their position as wrong,and fought a war for their views on God's  position as they saw it.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2013, 03:07:48 AM »
To be a slave means that you must do what your master tells you, even if if horrifies or disgusts you or you feel it is wrong: you are a slave, you have no choice. To remove the option of refusal, in slavery, is what makes it wrong, as it reduced the human being to the level of an animal - less than that, even, to the level of an object.

Bold: To highlight the portion I find hard to understand.

While I agree with most of what you said there; I disagree with the idea that any person can EVER be made to do something involuntarily. Even if the consequence of disobedience is immediate death, the option to dissent remains... always. The ONLY person that can enslave you, is you, by allowing another person to dictate your actions. If one allows themselves to become subjugated it is THEY that is making the decision to comply. Resistance is always an option. To me, it seems axiomatic. You might allow your fears to override your desire for freedom, but that doesn't change the fact that you CAN resist, always.

Oh, agreed - I was rushing the answer a bit.  I initially thought "I'm sure that will be a great comfort to anyone currently enslaved - it's THEIR fault, not their captors", but that doesn't really answer your point.

What I was endeavouring to say is that the difference between being a slave, and not, is that if I do not wish to carry out the instructions given me, is whether I have the legal or accepted right to refuse - and what the accepted or legal consequences will be. 

At work, if my boss says "do that", then I can indeed refuse.  He may sack me, but if refusal is what I choose, then there is nothing that can stop me from walking out.  With slavery, if I refuse, I AM prevented from walking away.  As a slave (assuming a socity that accepts slavery), if I try to run away, and get caught, the authorities will bring me back to my owner.  If my owner chooses to restrain me, he can. 

Less dramatically, my owner will have the right to decide what I wear.  When I eat.  Who I may speak to.  When and wear I sleep.  What I may read, or watch, or do.

Sorry, struggling to make my point here, but I think that's what it comes down to.  The ability to make one's own decisions, and to have the freedom to carry them out.

There is a significant amount of overlap with lots of jobs, I agree!  My employer restricts what I can wear and when I can eat.  But if I stand up and say "I quit", and walk out, then there is nothing he can do to retain me.  As a slave, I cannot quit.  That's the point.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2013, 03:09:04 AM »
Is slavery objectively wrong?

Does depend on what you define "slavery" to be, but in general terms....yes. ...

You do a good job of explaining why it's wrong with respect to our values.  Not why it's objectively wrong.  Nor could you.

Good point.  I agree.  Conversely, of course, nobody can explain why it it objectively right!
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2013, 03:22:53 AM »
To remove the option of refusal, in slavery, is what makes it wrong, as it reduced the human being to the level of an animal...snip
According to the theory of evolution, aren't both of those come from the same ancestor?
So according to your logic who believes in evolution, what makes us humans more special than animals?

Again, with your logic, what is the difference between keeping a monkey as your pet vs keeping another human as a slave.

Or slaughtering a cow for some good steak vs killing another man for money.  :police:

To be scrupulously correct: so are plants.  Eating a potato is (by the above logic) as bad/good as killing another human.  Likewise, how can I take medicine against a virus, because we share ancestors with them as well?

If you're going to use the ToE, probably best to follow it all the way for your examples.

The point of course is that the ToE is not an ethical or moral system.   What it says - ALL it says - is that different life-forms share common ancestors; and that in a given situation the lifeform that is best adapted to its environment is more likely to survive.

As Azdgari rightly pointed out to me, my argument against slavery was not an objective one, it was subjective.  My opinion on slavery is a moral one.  It takes no account of the ToE, any more than it does the theory of gravity: those things ARE, and as someone cleverer than I once said: "you can't get an ought from an is".

Society draws a dividing line at species level.  At other points in time, that line has been drawn at a racial or tribal level, occasionally it shifts a little the other way.  At times it was considered morally acceptable to east very VERY close relatives.  But that's the point: its a MORAL question - the ToE is not in and of itself anything to do with morality. 
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Xero-Kill

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2013, 07:59:17 AM »
@Anfauglir

Indeed, I see your point, but I feel that my point still remains valid. While the black slaves in the 1700s had no "legal" rights, they also had no obligation to obey the law. They had intrinsic rights that cannot be usurped by anyone but themselves. They COULD have revolted, individually or collectively, at anytime during their servitude. Just because someone accepts their lot in life and chooses their bonds over exerting their intrinsic right to freedom doesn't mean they couldn't. Short of a device that can completely override the nervous system and thus compelling your actions involuntarily there is NO way that one person can impose their will upon another unless that other someone allows it. The consequences are irrelevant, the choice remains with the subjugated. That they allow another person to control them IS their own fault.

Please note that I am not arguing the morality or ethics of slavery as I find it detestable. I am simply indicating that, regardless of the outcome, options remain. If you are enslaved, it is by your own doing or lack thereof.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 08:01:37 AM by Xero-Kill »
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Offline Xero-Kill

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2013, 08:10:11 AM »
How does one "remove your option of refusal?"
"Obey or die."  When the choice becomes whether to obey and continue living, or to refuse and be killed, most people will 'choose' to obey.

But they DID choose. The only thing you have proven is that "most people" are weak willed. Plenty of other people chose the converse as well. I am sure many fled successfully, many were killed, but they were not enslaved. The ones that allowed their fears to override their higher reasoning spent centuries under a whip enduring hard labor the likes of which none of us can likely fathom. They still chose.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 08:19:00 AM by Xero-Kill »
"Our fathers were our models for God. If our fathers bailed, what does that tell you about God? You have to consider the possibility that God does not like you. He never wanted you. In all probability, he hates you. This is not the worst thing that can happen."

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Offline epidemic

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2013, 08:54:46 AM »
@Anfauglir

Indeed, I see your point, but I feel that my point still remains valid. While the black slaves in the 1700s had no "legal" rights, they also had no obligation to obey the law. They had intrinsic rights that cannot be usurped by anyone but themselves. They COULD have revolted, individually or collectively, at anytime during their servitude. Just because someone accepts their lot in life and chooses their bonds over exerting their intrinsic right to freedom doesn't mean they couldn't. Short of a device that can completely override the nervous system and thus compelling your actions involuntarily there is NO way that one person can impose their will upon another unless that other someone allows it. The consequences are irrelevant, the choice remains with the subjugated. That they allow another person to control them IS their own fault.

Please note that I am not arguing the morality or ethics of slavery as I find it detestable. I am simply indicating that, regardless of the outcome, options remain. If you are enslaved, it is by your own doing or lack thereof.

Sorry but one has to be reasonable with ones definition of choice.

Revolts happened many times, the end result was always the same.   A choice requires that one accept the consequences.  You are right slaves could have chosed death over slavery.  Many did! But the choice was missing a key component.

usually we don't really consider it a choice when the other option is death.  Yes technically you can choose death.  But it is pretty universally avoided by virtually all people and almost always considered worse then the alternative.

So a slaves choice was to live a simple life and enjoy what simple pleasures the masters allowed them or die.  The fact that most chose to live and enjoy what time they had on earth vs die on the spot is not a real choice. 

I think most people keep death as a virtual last choice when the alternative is perceived to be worse than life. 

Choice is usually where you have options other than death or torture when spoken of by the masses.  Choices are usually compromises where there are pros and cons to both . 

I can choose to live in the New York and have good pizza, scenic hills, high taxes and blizzards,  or I can live in the southeast where Pizza sucks, taxes are low, there are no hills.  I chose the south because pizza is not as important as low taxes :)

Given the choice of slavery in a good house and death I might well consider the slavery as long as I could enjoy some of the pleasures of life. Buttttttt those are two really sucky choices.

here drink one of these two poisons  one will kill you instantly and one will rack you with pain in the evenings.

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Re: Jesus on slavery
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2013, 09:04:37 AM »
But they DID choose. The only thing you have proven is that "most people" are weak willed. Plenty of other people chose the converse as well. I am sure many fled successfully, many were killed, but they were not enslaved. The ones that allowed their fears to override their higher reasoning spent centuries under a whip enduring hard labor the likes of which none of us can likely fathom. They still chose.

Weak willed is absolutely wrong.  the ones who "chose slavery" enjoyed their lives had sex, kids, occasionally some good food, conversations and singing and dancing when they could.  The ones who ran had a tremendously high incidence of death.

Perhaps I should invest all my money the lottery,  leverage myself up the ass and hope I chose my numbers well.  If I win I will be set for life, alternatively my life could be one of debt where my kids are taken from me as we live on the street. 

It appears for most the choice was clear slavery was the better alternative then to risk all.  A running slave probably had a 99% chance of getting caught tortured and then killed.  1% had a chance at living a free life in a prejudiced, segragated society,  working long hours for megar wages but his movements are no longer controlled.