Author Topic: Hello! [#2750]  (Read 1111 times)

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Offline pianodwarf

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Hello! [#2750]
« on: July 09, 2013, 05:57:16 AM »
My name is [name removed]. I'm a not-particularly-well-informed Christian who has had contact with Buddhism and Islam. Hated Islam in every way, fuckin' adore Buddhism.

I was reading the "Why doesn't God heal amputees" section, and it made me want to chime in.

I was taught or rationalized to myself the following:
•God does not answer prayer for work to be done for us. Whether he did at one time or not I cannot prove or disprove and it makes no difference now.
•If he would miraculously save a woman from being hit by a car but then not save another woman from being raped and murdered, he must be:
-Permitting evil to "inspire" good OR
-Abandoning us to our own devices and not influencing us at all OR
-Picking and choosing who meets a grisly fate based on inconsistent criteria

I believe in a God. I fucking hate hearing the words "fate" or "destiny," especially used by other "Christians," concerning outcomes of events or as justification for their actions. If God exists and granted us free will, that is not a matter of degrees damn it. There is no fate. If he doesn't, there EXTRA isn't. Fuck.

I just realized I'm ranting so I'll cut it short. My rationalization for that is the following:
God doesn't answer prayers for deeds. I wish that weren't the case, but that's how it is.

When I was around 6 I had a brush with death and it caused me to become aware of my own mortality, which a year later was reinforced when I saved my grandma from drowning. I prayed every night for 4 years that my family and I would live safely forever, and if all I had to do to make that work was believe then I'll fuckin' drown you in belief. I'll believe in you so hard, bro.

Then my Uncle Kevin got blitzed by a drunk driver. Died because some fucking moron made a bad decision.

My uncle didn't deserve that, so either God hated my uncle for some reason or he disregarded my prayer.

A way to rationalize that would be "but the afterlife is eternal."

That's not what I fuckin' prayed for.

I believe it's our duty to handle our own shit. We want food, we grow it. If you lay on the couch for 5 days without getting up, it doesn't matter how much you believe and how good you are. Life doesn't give a fuck. You'll die of thirst.

You have to take what you want. You want to live, you take breath, you eat something that used to be alive and consume it's very energy in the form of calories, and you take a drink of water.

This world is ours whether God exists or not, and it's our duty to make our own way in it, but that coincides with free will. In addition, assuming god exists, he shouldn't be stupid and it would absolutely be retarded to make a world, a universe, that changes and inhabitants that cannot. They'd die off as soon as the environment changes in a disadvantageous manner, like if all bunnies were brown and then BAM world gets colder, so they have no camouflage for snow and then they're FUCKED. No more bunnies or 99% of cold blooded creatures.

I don't believe people came from monkeys. I believe everything fuckin' came from star dust, a chain of chemical reactions, the same stuff that made the dirt we stand upon and to insist that the lack of Tarzan or Mowgli types walking out of the woods due to MAGICAL EVOLUTION being evidence against it is insulting. Monkeys, apes, humans, and every other thing I don't feel like naming had a common ancestor. If EVERYTHING before had come from the same medium, why can't people come from a "rough draft" of humanity?

I particularly like this because I like to think that some of the things in the bible are metaphorical, like breathing life into dirt to make the first humans, although the massive amounts of incest that supposedly followed are off-putting.

Same stuff that made inorganic material made organic material due to some catalyst changing the process. It's been years since I looked it up, but that about sums it up I think.

A lot of the bible isn't quite horseshit but man does it need to be looked at critically. Joseph having two "paternal grandfathers" named, for example, by two different writers of a book in the bible, or if "your woman" tries to stop you from fighting by grabbing your balls you're supposed to chop her damned hand off.

I'll stop my email here before I become a nuisance. Thanks in advance for your time, and thanks for making such an interesting and passionate website. It's evident that you put a lot of work into it. 


PS:
How fuckin' pumped are you about things like production of stem cells from adult skin cells, cloning from a drop of blood, encoding things like Hitler's speech onto DNA like Assassin's Creed or some shit, and advances in cryonics such as the process of vitrification, not to mention the identification and successful isolation of the thing that makes us age as well as the successful application of that knowledge in a process that resulted in mice AGING IN REVERSE LIKE BENJAMIN GOTDAMN BUTTON?!

I'm so pumped about those things that I need to run laps. CAN'T HANDLE ALL THIS SCIENCE.

Also a contact lens that magnifies vision on command up to 3x.

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[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline jetson

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2013, 07:36:49 AM »
Dude, you're practically an atheist.  Come join the forum and get into some discussions!

Offline Irish

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2013, 05:12:37 PM »
Seconded.

I would be very timid about labeling you a Christian.  You're practically an atheist for all intents-and-purposes.

As an aside to what you listed as scientific things you're pumped for:  my favorite scientist is J. Craig Venter.  Amazing work he and his team are doing.  One of my favorite things about his research is one thing that you listed.  When his team synthesized a genome from scratch they inserted genetic watermarks to let anyone sequencing that genome know that it was from his lab and synthesized from scratch.  If I remember correctly they coded in the names of the researchers, memorable quotes from scientists and authors (I believe Oppenheimer and Feynman were two of them), and put in a HTTP link to a website they created for the organism. 

How fucking cool is that?
La scienze non ha nemici ma gli ignoranti.

Offline D3v14nt13

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #3 on: July 11, 2013, 01:14:02 PM »
Seconded.

I would be very timid about labeling you a Christian.  You're practically an atheist for all intents-and-purposes.

As an aside to what you listed as scientific things you're pumped for:  my favorite scientist is J. Craig Venter.  Amazing work he and his team are doing.  One of my favorite things about his research is one thing that you listed.  When his team synthesized a genome from scratch they inserted genetic watermarks to let anyone sequencing that genome know that it was from his lab and synthesized from scratch.  If I remember correctly they coded in the names of the researchers, memorable quotes from scientists and authors (I believe Oppenheimer and Feynman were two of them), and put in a HTTP link to a website they created for the organism. 

How fucking cool is that?

pretty brutally awesome. Thanks also for the kind words, but the same as you would be wary of calling me Christian I would of calling me an atheist. I do believe in a god, I just think that morals and the like are not dependant on the existance of a god to be valid.

It's like... I know a bit about Jesus and I want to be like that. I dig socialism, mercy even to your enemies, charity for the sake of charity etc. From what I understand of the bible, Jesus is like God's hippy-half. The "you can only get to heaven through me" thing has to do with him judging you on a case by case basis, where if you're repentant you will be forgiven, absolutely. If a terrorist bomber really thought he was doing God's will, then Jesus will be like "no, man, that's fucked up." Jihadist apologizes from the bottom of his heart, he gets forgiven and goes to heaven.

I was atheist for a while until I read things that supported that view, because I believed a god that DOESNT take every factor into consideration either doesn't exist or doesn't deserve worship, so fuck it. Know what I mean?

At the same time, to deny obvious evidence is foolish. I've never seen an angel, but "the absence of evidence is not the evidence of absence," and I firmly believe I've seen some ghost shit go down back when I was on Guam and when I was in the woods around my grandma's old place in Florida once.

For me, it's kind of like... Well to be honest I'm not sure I know how to sum it up. I've been researching this off and on for most of my life, and my idealized version of Christ is the person I want to emulate. I may have constructed my own idol and had this ideal as a role model rather than the Jesus of the bible, but the idol I've constructed in that case was based on seeking consistency and logical infallibility in such an idol.

The Jesus I know may be completely made up by me, but he's based on years of study from many resources, and I look up to it, in the same way I looked up to the fictitious Batman when I was little.

Sorry to spam you guys but I'm hungry for someone to doublecheck my logic, and you guys seem like people I could learn from. 

Offline D3v14nt13

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #4 on: July 11, 2013, 01:17:05 PM »
Also the "denial of evidence" thing I said was aimed at Christians who say that dinosaurs didn't exist, world is 6k years old, PEEPLE DUNT CUM FRUM MONKEHS, etc. DAMN does that grate on my nerves.

My name is Michael by the way. Pleased to meetcha. 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 01:21:07 PM by D3v14nt13 »

Offline Nam

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #5 on: July 11, 2013, 01:20:17 PM »
Dinosaurs came from monkeys?

;)

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #6 on: July 11, 2013, 01:30:36 PM »
Why do you believe in a god?

I mean, it sounds like you're using your beliefs to try to make yourself a better person.  Which is not a bad thing in my opinion.  It is certainly far better than the "REPENT AND BEG GOD'S FORGIVENESS LEST YE BE DAMNED!" crowd, who go through a similar process of making a personalized version of God, but who then try to act like that represents the reality for everyone.

But I don't really understand why you believe in a god, since you don't seem to need God for anything in particular.

Offline D3v14nt13

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #7 on: July 11, 2013, 01:56:57 PM »
Why do you believe in a god?

I mean, it sounds like you're using your beliefs to try to make yourself a better person.  Which is not a bad thing in my opinion.  It is certainly far better than the "REPENT AND BEG GOD'S FORGIVENESS LEST YE BE DAMNED!" crowd, who go through a similar process of making a personalized version of God, but who then try to act like that represents the reality for everyone.

But I don't really understand why you believe in a god, since you don't seem to need God for anything in particular.

Probably because if I were God it'd make sense to do the things God MUST have done to create things as they are. Consistent creation methods etc. I don't believe God has to resort to booga booga magic to do things, unlike most other people I talk to who believe.

If we're to exist alongside other organisms that can evolve, to make us incapable of doing so would be foolish. In addition, that would prevent the utilization of things like inherited traits, such as skin tone, hair color, height and more.

If we're to have free will, there must be independence from any "higher plan."

It's not so much that I can definitively say "there is a god and here's why" as it is that I can say "I act in a way that a God worth worshipping would approve of," I think. That's why you see me saying some of the things I say regarding personal morality and adherance to it.

It's like... If I die and there is a God, hooray!

If there is no god, then when I die then I'll simply cease to exist, so it's not like it'll matter THEN, haha. Still don't want to have lived as a shitty person though.

But from what I've learned, which again I may be completely full of shit after studying so many things and have accidentally created my own pastafferian style religion, is that if you honestly strive to do what you believe to be right, you are a good person, despite possibly being misguided, and a god that doesn't agree is evil.

It seems like the god of the bible does the white throne judgement, where if you stole a crayon from school on accident in kindergarten you're FUCKED, because he's only judging whether or not you've been tainted by sin, since that's not allowed in heaven. Jesus determines whether or not you're a good person base upon your adherance to "the law written upon your heart" which has nothing to do with religion itself, and if he sees you as worthy and repentant of your sins he offers rebirth into a sinless form in exchange for you agreeing to give up free will and become UNABLE to ever sin again, then sends you to the white throne judgement clean as a whistle.

This universe, supposedly, will be destroyed. I remember reading something about how the universe is continuing to expand, so it seems that one day the universe will expand to the point where "energy" doesn't exist, a cold and motionless, forever expanding collection of matter, so this universe (if that's true) does indeed have an expiration date.

So it seems to me that it COULD be true, but morality and the like are independant of whether God exists or not. At the same time it could be bullshit. That's why I'm so fervent about human immortality.

I don't want to find out whether there is a god or not, I'd rather be a decent person, eat space pizza hut and play metal gear solid 56, thanks.

It just... I mean scrying is webcams, telepathy is cell phones, evil spirits spoiling the milk is bacteria (spoiling the milk), so much "magic" is already science. I don't see why science can't be considered magic, just with rituals such as generation of electricity that actually fucking work instead of bullshit you know? Even without god, this world's magical as fuck. I love it. 
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 01:59:31 PM by D3v14nt13 »

Offline Astreja

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2013, 02:03:14 PM »
Even without god, this world's magical as fuck.

Best.  Line.  Ever.  Welcome, D3v14nt13!
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Offline D3v14nt13

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2013, 02:27:06 PM »
Even without god, this world's magical as fuck.

Best.  Line.  Ever.  Welcome, D3v14nt13!

Haha, thank you. I'm liking this forum a lot.

Also, I'm flattered by the post that said I don't seem to need God for anything, because if my religious views are correct that's the best way to be. Acting good out of fear of punishment alone is not morally good, that's just fearful. Doing it for the promised reward isn't either, that's being greedy. Know what I mean?

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2013, 02:55:38 PM »
Welcome D3v14nt13. You spelled your name wrong, but other than that you seem pretty level headed.   

I don't know how to spell it correctly, but that can't be right...  ;D

Sounds like your belief in a god is a holdover from the old days rather than the basis for everything, which is what most christians claim. But it doesn't matter. The rest of your head seems to have things figured out enough to meet our standards.

Stick around. We had fun here that one time back in '09 and we're hoping that it will happen again sometime.
Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline D3v14nt13

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2013, 03:19:18 PM »
Welcome D3v14nt13. You spelled your name wrong, but other than that you seem pretty level headed.   

I don't know how to spell it correctly, but that can't be right...  ;D

Sounds like your belief in a god is a holdover from the old days rather than the basis for everything, which is what most christians claim. But it doesn't matter. The rest of your head seems to have things figured out enough to meet our standards.

Stick around. We had fun here that one time back in '09 and we're hoping that it will happen again sometime.

I'm afraid I have to admit that I'm a little insulted by this one, which I know wasn't the intention. My belief in a God isn't clinging to an old concept, as I said I was atheistic for a long time, years, until I looked at Christianity again after studying a lot of other religions and philosophy and deciding, on my own, that there is enough of a possibility for there to be a God for me to be of the opinion that there is one. The crux of this is that, after the big bang, there were reactions that caused everything else from Human evolution to sentient, organic beings of any sort including animals, but what caused the big bang? What caused the elements that were in that single, infinitely dense point to exist at all? That's the only part of it that I can't find a cause for, and I'm dubious about eternal, infinite existence, and I remember reading something about stars existing now that are older than the occurrence of the "big bang" and other logically impossible things that seem to break the rules.

My belief in a God required the existence of these specific circumstances and I'd started out looking to verify that these conditions were NOT met.

It's not a holdover of antiquated ideals, it's a hypothesis, an educated guess based on all information that I have gathered so far.

Offline Nick

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2013, 03:28:03 PM »
So it is so difficult to know this God thing that we need to make "educated" guesses in order to figure it out.  And I guess if we do not guess "right" then we get to burn for all eternity.  Nice system set up by this thing that created it all.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline D3v14nt13

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2013, 03:48:27 PM »
So it is so difficult to know this God thing that we need to make "educated" guesses in order to figure it out.  And I guess if we do not guess "right" then we get to burn for all eternity.  Nice system set up by this thing that created it all.

That's something I firmly disagree with. The way I deal with that is the following:

A God worth worshiping wouldn't think like that, and from what I've seen the Christian one is such a God. I already explained why, that the Christian God has two judgements to go through, which is where "the only way to heaven is through me" comes from. You WILL fail the second unless you pass the first, because noone is perfect. At some point, you will sin somewhere, somehow, and that's not allowed in the blah blah blah, but most Christians interpret that as meaning that God has a secret fuckin' handshake.

My ex's mom and I used to argue HARD over whether or not someone who has no concept of Christianity is automatically damned, like all the people that existed before Christianity was even a thing. That outrageous jackass even asserted that the mentally handicapped and otherwise incapable-of-making-sound-decisions individuals were damned because they "wouldn't have accepted Christ anyway, and God knew that." Kinda goes against free will if we have a predetermined future that we aren't even allowed to play out and instead get condemned both to hell on Earth and literal hell afterward.

As for making educated guesses, that's what every pursuit of answers is until you get definitive proof that makes all other possibilities impossible. Can you prove that there's no God, even one that completely abandoned humanity and this universe in its entirety and instead sits in an alternate dimension jerking off to eroge?

---------------------

I forgot to say, one major reason I like Christianity is because it says that when you die, that's it. You see nothing, hear nothing, do nothing. You just blink out, until the apocalypse itself.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 05:28:35 PM by D3v14nt13 »

Offline Chronos

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2013, 06:49:14 PM »
pretty brutally awesome. Thanks also for the kind words, but the same as you would be wary of calling me Christian I would of calling me an atheist. I do believe in a god, I just think that morals and the like are not dependant on the existance of a god to be valid.

What is dependent on the existence of a god? Why? How?

John 14:2 :: In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

Offline D3v14nt13

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #15 on: July 11, 2013, 06:56:53 PM »
pretty brutally awesome. Thanks also for the kind words, but the same as you would be wary of calling me Christian I would of calling me an atheist. I do believe in a god, I just think that morals and the like are not dependant on the existance of a god to be valid.

What is dependent on the existence of a god? Why? How?

Nothing, far as I can tell. It'd be more beautiful if there definitively were no God, and as science advances it may come to pass that God is entirely disproven, but as things stand there's enough for me to think I'm more likely to be correct in that line of thought than the others, so that's the one I back. If any aspect gets disproven, I have to redefine my belief.

Buddhism's really cool about that too, if you're interested.

This guy might actually be the real life version of the idol I may have constructed in my mind.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Tenzin_Gyatso,_14th_Dalai_Lama

------------------------------

My confidence in venturing into science lies in my basic belief that as in science so in Buddhism, understanding the nature of reality is pursued by means of critical investigation: if scientific analysis were conclusively to demonstrate certain claims in Buddhism to be false, then we must accept the findings of science and abandon those claims.
The Universe in a Single Atom: The Convergence of Science and Spirituality (2005)
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 07:13:54 PM by D3v14nt13 »

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #16 on: July 11, 2013, 07:19:21 PM »
Welcome D3v14nt13. You spelled your name wrong, but other than that you seem pretty level headed.   

I don't know how to spell it correctly, but that can't be right...  ;D

Sounds like your belief in a god is a holdover from the old days rather than the basis for everything, which is what most christians claim. But it doesn't matter. The rest of your head seems to have things figured out enough to meet our standards.

Stick around. We had fun here that one time back in '09 and we're hoping that it will happen again sometime.

I'm afraid I have to admit that I'm a little insulted by this one, which I know wasn't the intention. My belief in a God isn't clinging to an old concept, as I said I was atheistic for a long time, years, until I looked at Christianity again after studying a lot of other religions and philosophy and deciding, on my own, that there is enough of a possibility for there to be a God for me to be of the opinion that there is one. The crux of this is that, after the big bang, there were reactions that caused everything else from Human evolution to sentient, organic beings of any sort including animals, but what caused the big bang? What caused the elements that were in that single, infinitely dense point to exist at all? That's the only part of it that I can't find a cause for, and I'm dubious about eternal, infinite existence, and I remember reading something about stars existing now that are older than the occurrence of the "big bang" and other logically impossible things that seem to break the rules.

My belief in a God required the existence of these specific circumstances and I'd started out looking to verify that these conditions were NOT met.

It's not a holdover of antiquated ideals, it's a hypothesis, an educated guess based on all information that I have gathered so far.

My apologies. No insult intended. I probably read through your first post too fast. Which I am wont to do.

Of course, here at WWGHA, we tend to say that incredulity is a lousy reason to believe something. That you can't imagine how matter came into being doesn't mean it is impossible that it did.

And we find an infinite god much harder to swallow than finite matter and energy.

Not everyone is entitled to their opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline D3v14nt13

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #17 on: July 11, 2013, 07:31:34 PM »
Welcome D3v14nt13. You spelled your name wrong, but other than that you seem pretty level headed.   

I don't know how to spell it correctly, but that can't be right...  ;D

Sounds like your belief in a god is a holdover from the old days rather than the basis for everything, which is what most christians claim. But it doesn't matter. The rest of your head seems to have things figured out enough to meet our standards.

Stick around. We had fun here that one time back in '09 and we're hoping that it will happen again sometime.

I'm afraid I have to admit that I'm a little insulted by this one, which I know wasn't the intention. My belief in a God isn't clinging to an old concept, as I said I was atheistic for a long time, years, until I looked at Christianity again after studying a lot of other religions and philosophy and deciding, on my own, that there is enough of a possibility for there to be a God for me to be of the opinion that there is one. The crux of this is that, after the big bang, there were reactions that caused everything else from Human evolution to sentient, organic beings of any sort including animals, but what caused the big bang? What caused the elements that were in that single, infinitely dense point to exist at all? That's the only part of it that I can't find a cause for, and I'm dubious about eternal, infinite existence, and I remember reading something about stars existing now that are older than the occurrence of the "big bang" and other logically impossible things that seem to break the rules.

My belief in a God required the existence of these specific circumstances and I'd started out looking to verify that these conditions were NOT met.

It's not a holdover of antiquated ideals, it's a hypothesis, an educated guess based on all information that I have gathered so far.

My apologies. No insult intended. I probably read through your first post too fast. Which I am wont to do.

Of course, here at WWGHA, we tend to say that incredulity is a lousy reason to believe something. That you can't imagine how matter came into being doesn't mean it is impossible that it did.

And we find an infinite god much harder to swallow than finite matter and energy.

I can dig it, man. Speaking of finite energy, check this out:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_death_of_the_universe

This is the thing I said earlier, on my iPod. Also, my belief requires that a God existed and created the singularity, which exploded in the "big bang," but I'm probably full of shit. To be honest, I know OF a bunch of things with shallow actual knowledge of the information, which is why in my initial email I said flat-out that I'm a "not-particularly-well-informed Christian."

I'm not asking to stir shit up, I genuinely want to learn what I can from you because in this matter I'm pretty much ignorant of all finer details. Can you please tell me what you know of the universe that caused you to draw the conclusion that it is impossible for a God to have done this, regardless of the truth of any single concept of a God? That is to say, what made you conclude that NO GOD exists rather than CERTAIN GODS do not?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #18 on: July 11, 2013, 07:42:24 PM »
Welcome.  That is quite a SPAG salad you have going on.

Jesus is like God's hippy-half.

I don't think so.  The Pentateuch is sort of my specialty, but I know that according to his PR manual - the bible - when jesus H come back, he'll be here to kill everyone except 144,000 virgin jewish men.  Sword coming out his mouth and everything. 

Allegedly.

So while I know a lot of people like to think the H in jesus H stands for "hippy", I kind of think it really stands for "heinous" or "holocaust".  Or possibly "Hershel" or "Hymie".  Sort of makes it easier to love your enemies (or at least smile at them) when you think jesus Holocaust christ is going to punish the shit out of them forever, in the end, no?



Can you please tell me what you know of the universe that caused you to draw the conclusion that it is impossible for a God to have done this, regardless of the truth of any single concept of a God? That is to say, what made you conclude that NO GOD exists rather than CERTAIN GODS do not?


? --> big bang --> universe
makes more sense to me than:
? --> god --> big bang --> universe

Simpler.  More streamlined.  I don't get how adding a guy[1] in there helps.  Nor why anyone would even posit a guy in there.


 1. because, come on, that's all gods are.  Just some guy with powers I wish I had.
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Offline D3v14nt13

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #19 on: July 11, 2013, 07:50:56 PM »
Welcome.  That is quite a SPAG salad you have going on.

Jesus is like God's hippy-half.

I don't think so.  The Pentateuch is sort of my specialty, but I know that according to his PR manual - the bible - when jesus H come back, he'll be here to kill everyone except 144,000 virgin jewish men.  Sword coming out his mouth and everything. 

Allegedly.

So while I know a lot of people like to think the H in jesus H stands for "hippy", I kind of think it really stands for "heinous" or "holocaust".  Or possibly "Hershel" or "Hymie".  Sort of makes it easier to love your enemies (or at least smile at them) when you think jesus Holocaust christ is going to punish the shit out of them forever, in the end, no?



Can you please tell me what you know of the universe that caused you to draw the conclusion that it is impossible for a God to have done this, regardless of the truth of any single concept of a God? That is to say, what made you conclude that NO GOD exists rather than CERTAIN GODS do not?


? --> big bang --> universe
makes more sense to me than:
? --> god --> big bang --> universe

Simpler.  More streamlined.  I don't get how adding a guy[1] in there helps.  Nor why anyone would even posit a guy in there.
 1. because, come on, that's all gods are.  Just some guy with powers I wish I had.

I was thinking the "?" would be replaced by God, since the infinite existence of that singularity is being replaced with the infinite existence of another entity, with the singularity being created. At the same time, while that would make it easier to explain the existence of the singularity without resorting to infinite existence, how did God come into being? And if he can be infinite, why couldn't the point of singularity assuming he didn't exist?

It might be because I tend to want explanations for everything that I find the idea of a God less opposing to my sensibilities than "we just happened to exist."

I remember reading a little about that and seeing a TV show that alluded to it as well, but like I said earlier I'm positive I'm creating a pseudo-Christianity in my mind, disregarding things that conflict with logic or beliefs that result in "the greater good." D3v14nt13anity just isn't as catchy, and I find the secondhand accounts of people from that long ago to be... not the most ideal thing to base my personal morals and ethics on.

The whole thing about "don't kill people" and "don't fuck your neighbor's wife" seems pretty legit though.

Also I apologize if my posts were poorly written.
« Last Edit: July 11, 2013, 07:55:45 PM by D3v14nt13 »

Offline screwtape

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #20 on: July 11, 2013, 07:54:42 PM »
I was thinking the "?" would be replaced by God, since the infinite existence of that singularity is being replaced with the infinite existence of another entity, with the singularity being created.

Yeah, that's a common mistake.  But positing a god still leaves unexplained questions.  From where did this god come?  It just moves all the same questions about the universe one step away.

At the same time, w...couldn't the point of singularity assuming he didn't exist?

yep.

Also I apologize if my posts were poorly written.

No need.  They weren't.  And we are used to far worse.
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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #21 on: July 11, 2013, 07:55:40 PM »
I'm not asking to stir shit up, I genuinely want to learn what I can from you because in this matter I'm pretty much ignorant of all finer details. Can you please tell me what you know of the universe that caused you to draw the conclusion that it is impossible for a God to have done this, regardless of the truth of any single concept of a God? That is to say, what made you conclude that NO GOD exists rather than CERTAIN GODS do not?

Sadly, I didn't become an atheist because of science. I relied on the silliness of the bible in general. You see, teaching me about greek myths in grade school on Friday and then sending me to Sunday school two days later does not make for a good mix. Because I couldn't tell the difference between the obvious mythological story of Pandora and the so-called true one about the Garden of Eden.

So either I had to believe all myths, or just admit they are all wrong. Which I did. I was 11. And that was a long time ago.

Science does tend to back up the myth stuff by finding reason to think that everything here could show up without incompetent and omnipotent beings being involved. OF course science could be resoundingly wrong, but the gods that play hide and seek and let us go about seeking truths in our own ways instead of informing us are much more to blame than we are if they exist.

So for me, it was not science that turned me to atheism. That is just a bonus. Until a real god who doesn't have to stay invisible like all the false gods do shows up, I'm afraid I'll have to depend on stuff we can see or measure, not on stuff others claim with nothing but a book to show for it.

We are sort of on the verge of having a discussion here, which is not the intent of the introduction section, so we should probably discuss this elsewhere if we are going to take it further.
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Offline wright

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2013, 07:58:42 PM »
Welcome, D3v14nt13. Looking forward to seeing you around the forum.

The crux of this is that, after the big bang, there were reactions that caused everything else from Human evolution to sentient, organic beings of any sort including animals, but what caused the big bang? What caused the elements that were in that single, infinitely dense point to exist at all?

Well, for one thing there weren't really "elements" as we think of them in the initial singularity that the Big Bang postulates. The universe had to expand to a certain size, cooling in the process, before even basic particles (quarks and bosons) could form.

That's the only part of it that I can't find a cause for, and I'm dubious about eternal, infinite existence,

As to the ultimate origin of the pre-expansion universe, it's true that currently we just don't know. One reason I prefer naturalistic theories (like a spontaneous much-magnified quantum fluctuation) is that postulating an intelligent creator adds an unnecessary level of complication, nevermind the problem of infinite regress.


and I remember reading something about stars existing now that are older than the occurrence of the "big bang" and other logically impossible things that seem to break the rules.

I think you're referring to this? Correct me if I'm wrong...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_crisis

Basically, it was a seeming paradox that was resolved within a few years.
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Offline D3v14nt13

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2013, 07:59:08 PM »
I'm not asking to stir shit up, I genuinely want to learn what I can from you because in this matter I'm pretty much ignorant of all finer details. Can you please tell me what you know of the universe that caused you to draw the conclusion that it is impossible for a God to have done this, regardless of the truth of any single concept of a God? That is to say, what made you conclude that NO GOD exists rather than CERTAIN GODS do not?

Sadly, I didn't become an atheist because of science. I relied on the silliness of the bible in general. You see, teaching me about greek myths in grade school on Friday and then sending me to Sunday school two days later does not make for a good mix. Because I couldn't tell the difference between the obvious mythological story of Pandora and the so-called true one about the Garden of Eden.

So either I had to believe all myths, or just admit they are all wrong. Which I did. I was 11. And that was a long time ago.

Science does tend to back up the myth stuff by finding reason to think that everything here could show up without incompetent and omnipotent beings being involved. OF course science could be resoundingly wrong, but the gods that play hide and seek and let us go about seeking truths in our own ways instead of informing us are much more to blame than we are if they exist.

So for me, it was not science that turned me to atheism. That is just a bonus. Until a real god who doesn't have to stay invisible like all the false gods do shows up, I'm afraid I'll have to depend on stuff we can see or measure, not on stuff others claim with nothing but a book to show for it.

We are sort of on the verge of having a discussion here, which is not the intent of the introduction section, so we should probably discuss this elsewhere if we are going to take it further.

I appreciate you taking the time to reply and tell me about it, though. Thank you, I'll cut it short now after saying DAMN I wish Greek myths were real. Well, something like them. Some of them are fuckin' terrifying.

Offline D3v14nt13

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2013, 08:02:12 PM »
Welcome, D3v14nt13. Looking forward to seeing you around the forum.

The crux of this is that, after the big bang, there were reactions that caused everything else from Human evolution to sentient, organic beings of any sort including animals, but what caused the big bang? What caused the elements that were in that single, infinitely dense point to exist at all?

Well, for one thing there weren't really "elements" as we think of them in the initial singularity that the Big Bang postulates. The universe had to expand to a certain size, cooling in the process, before even basic particles (quarks and bosons) could form.

That's the only part of it that I can't find a cause for, and I'm dubious about eternal, infinite existence,

As to the ultimate origin of the pre-expansion universe, it's true that currently we just don't know. One reason I prefer naturalistic theories (like a spontaneous much-magnified quantum fluctuation) is that postulating an intelligent creator adds an unnecessary level of complication, nevermind the problem of infinite regress.


and I remember reading something about stars existing now that are older than the occurrence of the "big bang" and other logically impossible things that seem to break the rules.

I think you're referring to this? Correct me if I'm wrong...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_crisis

Basically, it was a seeming paradox that was resolved within a few years.

Thanks very much for the thorough reply, I'll look that stuff up, especially thank you for the link to the "Age Crisis" thing. I'll need to reevaluate the entirety of my beliefs that were based on scientific evidence that seemed conducive to the existence of something that allows for breaking the rules to see if anything else was disproven in a similar manner. Gonna take a while.

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2013, 08:11:03 PM »
I appreciate you taking the time to reply and tell me about it, though. Thank you, I'll cut it short now after saying DAMN I wish Greek myths were real. Well, something like them. Some of them are fuckin' terrifying.

As a mythology fan myself, I heartily agree. The Hellenistic gods as they're portrayed in the classic myths were magnified mortals, only occasionally acting with anything approaching responsibility. Incredibly powerful people acting on impulse... scary.

The Norse lot were slightly better, but their Ragnarok puts the Christian Armageddon to shame in terms of fearfulness.

Thanks very much for the thorough reply, I'll look that stuff up, especially thank you for the link to the "Age Crisis" thing. I'll need to reevaluate the entirety of my beliefs that were based on scientific evidence that seemed conducive to the existence of something that allows for breaking the rules to see if anything else was disproven in a similar manner. Gonna take a while.

No problem. As ParkingPlaces noted, we should probably continue any further discussion elsewhere. Seeya round.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
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Offline Irish

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2013, 09:01:00 PM »
D3v14nt13,

I've read the majority of your posts (enough to get a feel of your positions and code of ethics) and you seem like the kind of Christian that in every day walking life I'm totally cool with.  Sure, we disagree on whether God exists or not but at the end of the day we agree to respectfully disagree and carry on our business.  It's quite the breath of fresh air to have a rational person who believes, for instance, that morals are not dependent on God and that without God a person can still be good.

Welcome.
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Offline Chronos

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2013, 09:32:02 PM »
Nothing, far as I can tell. It'd be more beautiful if there definitively were no God, and as science advances it may come to pass that God is entirely disproven, but as things stand there's enough for me to think I'm more likely to be correct in that line of thought than the others, so that's the one I back. If any aspect gets disproven, I have to redefine my belief.

Do you realize that if you posit that a god exists, then you have to prove it? It is not up to someone else to disprove your claim.

How have you determined that you are more likely to be correct in thinking that there is a god?


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Offline D3v14nt13

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Re: Hello! [#2750]
« Reply #28 on: July 12, 2013, 12:16:39 AM »
Nothing, far as I can tell. It'd be more beautiful if there definitively were no God, and as science advances it may come to pass that God is entirely disproven, but as things stand there's enough for me to think I'm more likely to be correct in that line of thought than the others, so that's the one I back. If any aspect gets disproven, I have to redefine my belief.

Do you realize that if you posit that a god exists, then you have to prove it? It is not up to someone else to disprove your claim.

How have you determined that you are more likely to be correct in thinking that there is a god?

It's not that I'm saying "God A most certainly does exist" as much as I'm saying "This universe as it is provides no proof against all concepts of any and all Gods."

This results in the kind of thing where, following that logic, a God that created all of this then immediately abandoned the universe and played dominoes with an imaginary cat he has (despite being omnipotent and thus being able to have a real cat) is exactly as possible as the one I believe in.

I'm not saying that anyone has an obligation to prove their point to me. I've learned a lot just over the course of today, for example that one thing that defined my beliefs was nothing more than a mathematical error someone made. I've repeatedly made it clear that I am "a not-particularly-well-informed Christian" and "am totally ignorant of the finer points" of some of the things we've discussed in this very thread.

As for me determining that I am more correct in thinking that there is a God, that's my opinion, a hypothesis only, and only in regard to myself. I determined that I, myself, am more correct, in that it is the hypothesis that best fit the information I knew of at the time. This is not referring to me being smarter than others or more well informed. Quite the opposite, and I've stated that several times now, man.

It literally meant that, for the information I had, I determined that that was the most likely truth.

Relax, man. It seems like you're used to militant theists coming in here and trying bullrush you.

D3v14nt13,

I've read the majority of your posts (enough to get a feel of your positions and code of ethics) and you seem like the kind of Christian that in every day walking life I'm totally cool with.  Sure, we disagree on whether God exists or not but at the end of the day we agree to respectfully disagree and carry on our business.  It's quite the breath of fresh air to have a rational person who believes, for instance, that morals are not dependent on God and that without God a person can still be good.

Welcome.

Thank you for the kind words, Irish. That's actually what the only kind of God I'd worship would count as "good." A God worth worshiping would consider an "Atheist" that lives a good life as better than a "Christian," "Jew," "Muslim" etc that lives immorally, especially going against what he personally believes to be right. This is another reason why I consider myself "Christian," because I was taught by Christian family members that those that firmly believe that evil is God's will deserve pity and sympathy for their misguided beliefs, that speaking to a robber and inviting him to share a meal with you despite not allowing him to take all of your things, and asking how much he needs to get by to see if you can spare it, is much better than shooting him.

That being said, I have a rifle in my room and a magazine full of "wish a mothafucka would" waiting for if shit goes sideways.

Something my grandpa said was "When David saw Goliath wasn't going to listen to reason, he aimed for the big bastard's head. Don't miss."

Grandpa's a practical sort of man.

I'm really diggin' this forum and the members of the community I've seen thus far. Even picked up some reading to do from Wright: Marcus Aurelius' Meditations. The signature quote of Wright is literally my most heartfelt belief. He was kind enough to give me both the source and the full quote.

I tried to reply to the PM, but it wouldn't go through and I didn't want to risk spamming the guy, so I'll say it here.

Thanks for the info and a new potential role model!
« Last Edit: July 12, 2013, 12:31:13 AM by D3v14nt13 »