Author Topic: The Evil Problem  (Read 5779 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Ron Jeremy

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
  • Darwins +59/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #174 on: July 21, 2013, 12:49:44 AM »

The one thing I do worry about is pushing my luck by becoming more publicly atheist...

Know what you mean, but this is not the same as tweaking the nose of fate. More like tweaking the nipple of a very real Islamic fundamentalist. Fate can't bring an airliner down but a fundamentalist can!
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2032
  • Darwins +72/-83
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #175 on: July 22, 2013, 08:32:23 AM »
^^Specifically, why gods tend to only act through their believers (be it directly through them, or by having their believers interpret natural events as being the work of those gods).  In short, what distinguishes the god you believe in from a fictitious character who resides inside your head, who acts and speaks through you?

I've fallen behind in this thread, my apologies.  I can bite off more than I can chew sometimes. 

First, I don't know that God only acts through believers.  As far as distinguishing God from a fictitious deity in my head I think I can not.  Not in anyway you would consider evidence.  To me it is just good common sense to believe that God conducted the Big Bang.

I will say this.  That when I follow my heart good things seem to happen.  I try to live a life that honors God and gives thanks for this life.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2032
  • Darwins +72/-83
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #176 on: July 22, 2013, 09:04:49 AM »

Quote
Either way Ron freewill explains it.  Which I have included in every answer I've given you.  Freewill is a gift from God, IMO.  Some people use it for good; some people abuse it.

And some people abuse the free will of innocent victims by raping/killing them. Which means that the bad guy gets to have more free will than the victim. Which is cute and all, but irksome otherwise. And until a believer can explain to me why freewill is important unless it gets in the way of a bad persons free will, I shall go ahead and consider the whole religious take on what free will is a bunch of bunk. If my freewill is currently important, and I'm busy using it either to believe in god or not, and along comes a bad guy (either a believer or not) and conks me over the head with a crowbar, how is my freewill of any use to me?

And before you run around saying I had a chance to believe or whatever before getting conked, you need also to be able to answer this. When the victim is a small child, or even a baby, who has had no chance to develop his or her free will, where is the wonderful part of that?

A world w/o freewill is a slave world.  A world of puppets/robots. 

Serious question, if there is an afterlife and a reward of great knowledge and freedom comes with that, does it not make sense to want the recipient to prove itself worthy of said gift?  It's really not much different than choosing a leader.  A leader has the power to take millions of lives with the push of a button.  Does he not need a good resume to get the job.  I see the gift of knowledge as a much more dangerous weapon than a nuclear bomb.  Especially if that knowledge contains the secrets of life and death.   How do you prove yourself worthy of heavenly rewards without freewill?  You can not.

It is sad when children are the victims of violence.  Taking that child's freedom to live I'm sure gets a severe penalty from God and the child is, I believe,  given a great honor in the heavens. 

Either way violence does not make me think there is no God but confirms the need for God. 

You know there are reports, especially from children, where Angels have saved them from death. 

Anyway you are right freewill is not always pretty but it is a part of our lives with or w/o belief in Gods.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2032
  • Darwins +72/-83
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #177 on: July 22, 2013, 09:24:09 AM »

If you were God there would have never been a 9/11.  We would all be under your control. 

How about giving that child some loving parents or just dictate from your throne who is worthy to have children and who ain't.

How would you create such life Screwtape.  If it can be done do it already.  I'm tired of spending all my money at the grocery store.

No freewill in Screwtape's kingdom. No Thanks!!!

That's what I think Love is using us for Screwtape.  To stop people from doing bad things in God's name.

But, June, love is a human emotion. It is our reaction to others. It is not some disembodied ideal like Plato's ideal. So what you are saying seems to be that whatever is wrong in the world, and there's plenty wrong, we should overcome it with our human emotion and the action that follows that emotion. Great!

Just one point - what happened to your 'god'?

My God is the Love we are fighting with.  Love is God, God is Love.  Love will win. IMO
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Online ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6403
  • Darwins +757/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Hide and Seek World Champion since 1958!
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #178 on: July 22, 2013, 09:30:58 AM »
A world w/o freewill is a slave world.  A world of puppets/robots. 

Serious question, if there is an afterlife and a reward of great knowledge and freedom comes with that, does it not make sense to want the recipient to prove itself worthy of said gift?  It's really not much different than choosing a leader.  A leader has the power to take millions of lives with the push of a button.  Does he not need a good resume to get the job.  I see the gift of knowledge as a much more dangerous weapon than a nuclear bomb.  Especially if that knowledge contains the secrets of life and death.   How do you prove yourself worthy of heavenly rewards without freewill?  You can not.

It is sad when children are the victims of violence.  Taking that child's freedom to live I'm sure gets a severe penalty from God and the child is, I believe,  given a great honor in the heavens. 

Either way violence does not make me think there is no God but confirms the need for God. 

You know there are reports, especially from children, where Angels have saved them from death. 

Anyway you are right freewill is not always pretty but it is a part of our lives with or w/o belief in Gods.

By christian standards, I didn't have to prove myself of being guilty. That came with the territory. I was born automatically an asshole because of Adam and Eve. So I was already at a huge disadvantage when I was born. So now I have to choose which of many religions to follow. And in doing that, I have to choose a version that agrees with your version, or I'm sunk, because you know everything about being saved and so I'm pretty sure I have to end up doing things your way. And then I have to spend the rest of my life hoping I chose well, that your advice was both accurate and useful, and then I die and there is nothing and I'm one pissed off corpse with no ability to be angry about it.

Got it. I'll go to work on this right away. As ordered.

Less cynical version. I have freewill but I have to do things one specific way or I'm not exercising it correctly.

They need to rename it junebug72will.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Online Ron Jeremy

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 512
  • Darwins +59/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #179 on: July 22, 2013, 09:59:09 AM »
And still no answer from theists about why biblegod allows gratuitous suffering? Not asking about saving of life, why doesn't biblegod take life from a young child that will die alone? Why allow it to drag on for days in lonely suffering?

And as far as the murder of a baby; how come it gets to go straight to heaven and its wonderful reward? How come it doesn't have to risk eternal damnation by choosing the wrong god or making a mistake?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2002
  • Darwins +360/-8
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #180 on: July 22, 2013, 11:14:18 AM »
And still no answer from theists about why biblegod allows gratuitous suffering? Not asking about saving of life, why doesn't biblegod take life from a young child that will die alone? Why allow it to drag on for days in lonely suffering?
Just to nitpick - this question applies to more concepts of god than just biblegod.  Any proposed god that is simultaneously all-powerful and all-loving presents this conundrum.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard