Author Topic: The Evil Problem  (Read 7065 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Star Stuff

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5783
  • Darwins +151/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • Carbon-based life form.
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #116 on: July 10, 2013, 09:19:31 AM »
My belief only enhances that fact to say it will please God when we accomplish this daunting task.

That's interesting - the fact that you have this idea of a heavenly father figure who can be "pleased" with his children's behaviour.  This must inherently mean that he also possesses other mood characteristics as well, like being sad, angry, anxious, flustered, enraged?


The idea of god was not a lie but a device of the unconscious which needed to be decoded by psychology. A personal god was nothing more than an exalted father-figure.  Desire for such a deity sprang from infantile yearnings for a powerful, protective father; for justice and fairness and for life to go on forever. God is simply a projection of these desires, feared and worshipped by human beings out of an abiding sense of helplessness. Religion belonged to the infancy of the human race; it had been a necessary stage in the transition from childhood to maturity. It had promoted ethical values which were essential to society. Now that humanity had come of age, however, it should be left behind.  (Sigmund Freud)
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2221
  • Darwins +73/-90
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #117 on: July 10, 2013, 11:31:34 AM »
My belief only enhances that fact to say it will please God when we accomplish this daunting task.

That's interesting - the fact that you have this idea of a heavenly father figure who can be "pleased" with his children's behaviour.  This must inherently mean that he also possesses other mood characteristics as well, like being sad, angry, anxious, flustered, enraged?

Why must it inherently mean this.  Because you want it to.  I think God has perfect control over emotions.  Far too understanding for anger.  Anxious, come on. Sad, maybe.  If a human can control these emotions a god most certainly can.

That quote is one opinion.  There are many.  I will not argue that the stories of old are out there.  The mystery remains.  Neither you or I know the truth.  We have our POVs and that's it.  You have a strong non belief.  I have a strong belief.  According to some links I've posted we are not much different from one another.  I don't like for people to claim knowledge they can't possibly have either.  Not from theist and not from atheist.  Something I have learned very well from WWGHA, thanks.

It's good to be talking with you again StarStuff. 

Take care
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline Ron Jeremy

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 560
  • Darwins +61/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #118 on: July 10, 2013, 11:51:37 AM »
"Why do you think your god(s) allow gratuitous, un-necessary and un-witnessed suffering?"

What part of this question, Junebug, confuses you? I tried to clarify that I was not asking why gods did not save the life of the girl in the example. That was not the question.

You say only humans cause pain and suffering. Did we cause the 2004 tsunami? Do we cause earthquakes? Do we cause viruses? No, they are natural events. And in many cases in these events victims experience gratuitous suffering. I would simply like to know how theists square this with their belief in a loving personal god.
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline Star Stuff

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5783
  • Darwins +151/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • Carbon-based life form.
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #119 on: July 10, 2013, 12:23:46 PM »
Why must it inherently mean this?  Because you want it to?

No, that's the way you roll.  It must inherently mean this because I use logic & reason, tools which you appear to side-step to keep your bubble of "beliefs" protected.  If your imaginary god can be "pleased", then it follows that he/she/it must also have other human-like emotions like being pleased.  Kindly explain how a person or god could be pleased, but have no other emotions.


Quote
I think God has perfect control over emotions.  Far too understanding for anger.

Yet the bible speaks over & over again about this particular god's anger & rage.  So you are wrong.  Please admit that.



Quote
Anxious, come on. Sad, maybe.

And as predicted, here you go on your fanciful exercise of cherry-picking; deciding all by yourself with your imagination what characteristics your god has and doesn't have.  It's really quite silly and childish (like Freud spelled out - I think he is correct).






Quote
That quote is one opinion.  There are many.

Yes, but instead of being tossed around like a leaf by the wind, we all ought to decide what opinions, assertions and claims are supported by evidence and reason.



Quote
I will not argue that the stories of old are out there.  The mystery remains.

Huh?


Quote
Neither you or I know the truth.  We have our POVs and that's it.  You have a strong non belief.  I have a strong belief.  According to some links I've posted we are not much different from one another.  I don't like for people to claim knowledge they can't possibly have either.  Not from theist and not from atheist.

These sort of comments are a cop-out.  You seem to be trotting out the tired old line of "you're just as bad as a fundamentalist" drivel.  As Richard Dawkins said:  "When two opposite points of view are expressed with equal intensity, the truth does not necessarily lie exactly halfway between them. It is possible for one side to be simply wrong." 

Like most all christians, the thing which causes you to remain in the fog is to dwell in absolutes.  You feel that one must "know absolutely" something in order to believe or disbelieve it.  This is wrong-wrong-wrong, and it is not how science works.  Notice how you don't believe in numerous other things, yet you don't have "absolute knowledge" of their existence or not.  But your god gets a free pass, because you're just simply too invested in said beliefs.


"Believing is easier than thinking, thus so many more believers than thinkers"
« Last Edit: July 10, 2013, 02:00:23 PM by Star Stuff »
God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Online jaimehlers

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5092
  • Darwins +586/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #120 on: July 10, 2013, 12:31:52 PM »
^^Specifically, why gods tend to only act through their believers (be it directly through them, or by having their believers interpret natural events as being the work of those gods).  In short, what distinguishes the god you believe in from a fictitious character who resides inside your head, who acts and speaks through you?

Online Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6778
  • Darwins +546/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #121 on: July 10, 2013, 12:38:15 PM »


What should disturb you more, MM, is when the person suffering has a great deal of faith in god. Like the many stats that show people where there is the most religious faith having much worse lives compared to people with no faith at all.  :-\

People with harder lives need faith.  Those that don't need none.  Just saying. ;)
If faith is within you, then whatever it is doing for you is already within you. Saying those with poor quality lives need faith is like saying Eskimos need banana slicers so they can feel content that they have a banana slicer.

Thinking that everything depends on God is just a pointless detour to reality -> reality is thinking that we do not know the future and are often unable to influence it other than by our own actions. The only difference is someone has stuck a god that need not be there into the equation.

Get rid of the god and rely on yourself for what the god is supposed to do.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline epidemic

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 908
  • Darwins +61/-14
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #122 on: July 10, 2013, 03:16:45 PM »
Today he has given us something different.  He has given us the Bible, which is in itself a miracle and worth more than the appearance of an angel and it is something people of old did not possess.  One must only make proper use of it.  In those pages he has promised to fill us with his spirit.  There is nothing worth more than that.  Instead of complaining about what he has not given us, we should first make use of what he has given us.

I dissagree.  I was raised in a religious household, given the bible...  I find the appearance of an angel to be far superior because I would believe that.   I read a 2000 year old text written in such a way as to be unbelievable and you end up with me.  An agnostic atheist.

Were I to have been filled with the spirit through a personal encounter with a superbeing  then I would believe.   And knowing who I am I would follow what ever book of guidelines that super being suggested.  I don't hate god.  I dont believe in the god described in the old testament or new testament.   Because I have seen no relationship with those books and reality.  My puny fallible human mind has concluded based on the evidence presented to me that God is terribly unlikely.  However if presented with credible information I would certainly believe.

I am only human after all.

Giving me boils, broken bones, paralysis will not change my belief one way or the other.   The miracle you call the bible simply does not appear to be a miracle to me.   I read the words and frankly I conclude how do people believe this stuff.  I see the miracle of the bible is that some people actually believe it.  But I see the same miracle in the people who follow mormonism, bhudism, and hinduism.  What you call a miracle I see as gullibility because all religions seem to suffer from the same flaw they believe in the unbelievable with out any proof.

I would buy virtually any religion that statistically did not suffer the same fate as the rest of us.   If all christians were spared in Tsunamis, and Statitically sufficient number of christians died in their sleep vs horribly for no other perceivable reason then they were christians...  Then I would be all in.  But as it stands no religion seems to have a lock on magic healings, lower levels of suffering, greater levels of joy, or any other relief from "EVIL" .   Statistically speaking we all receive the same level of suckiness and same level of Joy.

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2221
  • Darwins +73/-90
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #123 on: July 11, 2013, 05:16:27 AM »
"Why do you think your god(s) allow gratuitous, un-necessary and un-witnessed suffering?"

What part of this question, Junebug, confuses you? I tried to clarify that I was not asking why gods did not save the life of the girl in the example. That was not the question.

You say only humans cause pain and suffering. Did we cause the 2004 tsunami? Do we cause earthquakes? Do we cause viruses? No, they are natural events. And in many cases in these events victims experience gratuitous suffering. I would simply like to know how theists square this with their belief in a loving personal god.

If the people suffering don't die their suffering is prolonged.  The body breaks down.  It is painful, death is mercy. 

Answer me a question please.  If there is an afterlife of the spectacular kind, is dying such a terrible thing?  Yes or no please. 

We are capable of building homes to withstand bad weather and yes I believe human behavior affects the weather. W/o loss of life weather is very beneficial to the planet? Yes we cause viruses.  Remember germ warfare? H-1-N-1?  The nasty way food industry handles our meats.  What about AIDS?  Viruses only happen when humans or their food are nasty.  There is a reason some theists say, clealiness is next to godliness

Either way Ron freewill explains it.  Which I have included in every answer I've given you.  Freewill is a gift from God, IMO.  Some people use it for good; some people abuse it.

That's how it's squared for me.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Online Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6778
  • Darwins +546/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #124 on: July 11, 2013, 06:05:05 AM »
If the people suffering don't die their suffering is prolonged.  The body breaks down.  It is painful, death is mercy.
...and if they were cured of their suffering, would that be a mercy?

Quote
Answer me a question please.  If there is an afterlife of the spectacular kind, is dying such a terrible thing?  Yes or no please.

Yes, undoubtedly but if there were a box containing $1,000,000 in your attic complete with a note saying, "This is for junebug" would that be useful?

How many dead people have come back and told you there's an afterlife? Isn't "There is an afterlife." the easiest statement to make. I tell you what, you give me $10 a week, and if you don't go to heaven I'll give all your subscriptions plus twice as much to anyone you nominate on proof that there is an afterlife and it is not the one you thought it was.

Have you still faith in an afterlife?

Quote
Viruses only happen when humans or their food are nasty.

So animals never get viruses... like Bird-flu?

Quote
There is a reason some theists say, clealiness is next to godliness.

That saying came about after germ theory, not before it - science, as usual, told theists what to say and believe. You will be aware that Jesus thought that washing your hands before eating with your fingers was unnecessary. 

Quote
Freewill is a gift from God, IMO.

Then you are wrong. 

I am constantly amazed by your inability to think in a straight line.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2221
  • Darwins +73/-90
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #125 on: July 11, 2013, 06:05:56 AM »
StarStuff,

You sure got that all wrong. 

If humans can control their emotions then a god certainly could control emotions even better.  There is logic and reason in that statement.  I did not say they were not there I said God controls them,IMO.  It's not what I know it's what I believe.

We've been down this road before Star.  I will not be called stupid, irrational, a christian, illogical or mentally ill.  I have just as much reasoning skill as you do.  We both have reasonable reasons for what we do and do not believe. 

The mystery remains because there is still no absolute truth.  I agree with your skepticism towards religions.  Religion is not God.  You guys do an excellent job proving religion is hogwash as far as the rules and regulations go.  Their definitions of gods.  It is the foundation of religion, the belief in God, that still remains.

I can't believe you didn't remember I don't believe in the bible.  I am not a christian. Please refer to http://www.huffingtonpost.com/philip-goldberg/spiritual-but-not-religious-misunderstood-and-here-to-stay_b_2617306.html.

I hate that term cherry-picking.  I don't cherry-pick.  What am I picking from?

The only thing silly and childish here is you calling me silly and childish.

There is evidence and reason.  Evidence=Life itself, reasoning=intelligence was involved in our origins.

It is just as possible that you are wrong as it is that I am.  It is possible we are both wrong.  That is not a cop out that is honesty.  You should try it.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2221
  • Darwins +73/-90
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #126 on: July 11, 2013, 06:30:10 AM »
If the people suffering don't die their suffering is prolonged.  The body breaks down.  It is painful, death is mercy.
...and if they were cured of their suffering, would that be a mercy?

Quote
Answer me a question please.  If there is an afterlife of the spectacular kind, is dying such a terrible thing?  Yes or no please.

Yes, undoubtedly but if there were a box containing $1,000,000 in your attic complete with a note saying, "This is for junebug" would that be useful?

How many dead people have come back and told you there's an afterlife? Isn't "There is an afterlife." the easiest statement to make. I tell you what, you give me $10 a week, and if you don't go to heaven I'll give all your subscriptions plus twice as much to anyone you nominate on proof that there is an afterlife and it is not the one you thought it was.

Have you still faith in an afterlife?

Quote
Viruses only happen when humans or their food are nasty.

So animals never get viruses... like Bird-flu?

Quote
There is a reason some theists say, clealiness is next to godliness.

That saying came about after germ theory, not before it - science, as usual, told theists what to say and believe. You will be aware that Jesus thought that washing your hands before eating with your fingers was unnecessary. 

Quote
Freewill is a gift from God, IMO.

Then you are wrong. 

I am constantly amazed by your inability to think in a straight line.

I think you have skipped some posts GB or you would not have asked that first question. 
 
No not if you're stuck in a well.

Why yes?  I don't believe that's an honest answer.  That's a dodge.  $1,000,000,000; only in this life.  You can't take it with you.  You won't need it.

Yes I still have belief in an after life.  That's in my soul.

Don't those birds live in horrid conditions caused by human abuse/neglect?

What does Jesus have to do with this conversation.  I am not a christian.  Please refer to the link I posted for Star.

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline Ron Jeremy

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 560
  • Darwins +61/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #127 on: July 11, 2013, 08:26:59 AM »
I take it Junebug you can't answer why your god allows gratuitous suffering before death? Any other theists want to venture an opinion?
Matthew 10:22 "and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved." - An example of a clearly demonstrably false biblical 'prophesy'.

The biblical myth of a 6000 year old Earth is proven false by the Gaia satellite directly measuring star age.

Offline John 3 16

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
  • Darwins +1/-14
  • Gender: Male
  • Darwins +0/-1,000,000,000
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #128 on: July 11, 2013, 08:58:45 AM »
I don't know why God allows gratuitous sufferings. (Who determines anything is gratuitous anyway?)

But if there were no gratuitous sufferings, that is not an evidence for the existence of God either.
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

A person who vocally hates on religious individuals, often criticizing such persons for being uneducated hillbillies.

Offline epidemic

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 908
  • Darwins +61/-14
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #129 on: July 11, 2013, 09:07:25 AM »
I don't know why God allows gratuitous sufferings. (Who determines anything is gratuitous anyway?)

But if there were no gratuitous sufferings, that is not an evidence for the existence of God either.
'

No evidence of god would be personal appearances, better outcomes for believers, or worse outcomes for non believers.  Amputations being healed by followers of given religion.  Gimpy legs for non or incorrect religions.

Offline John 3 16

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
  • Darwins +1/-14
  • Gender: Male
  • Darwins +0/-1,000,000,000
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #130 on: July 11, 2013, 09:22:55 AM »
No evidence of god would be personal appearances, better outcomes for believers, or worse outcomes for non believers
Epidemic.
Do you wish there were a god?
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

A person who vocally hates on religious individuals, often criticizing such persons for being uneducated hillbillies.

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6627
  • Darwins +796/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • If you are religious, you are misconcepted
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #131 on: July 11, 2013, 09:33:27 AM »
Even though this response is not addressed to me, Junebug, you covered a lot of ground and I have to jump in.

If the people suffering don't die their suffering is prolonged.  The body breaks down.  It is painful, death is mercy. 

But given that for many, death is not mercy, and that there is no pattern (the good sometimes die well, the good sometimes die horribly, same for the bad) there are those of us who wonder what the fuck is going on if a god is involved.

Quote
Answer me a question please.  If there is an afterlife of the spectacular kind, is dying such a terrible thing?  Yes or no please. 

Well, an accurate description of the afterlife, complete with a useful overview, a Facebook page, Flickr photos, etc. would be very helpful in deciding yes or no. The only thing I know about the afterlife is based on the hundreds of different and conflicting descriptions I have heard from various believers over the years. And an infinite existence is of no interest to me if it ends up being boring or otherwise less than dynamic and enjoyable. I can handle a lifetime of various disappointments, etc. Not not infinity.

Quote
Yes we cause viruses.  Remember germ warfare? H-1-N-1?  The nasty way food industry handles our meats.  What about AIDS?  Viruses only happen when humans or their food are nasty.  There is a reason some theists say, clealiness is next to godliness.

You seem to be mixing up our ability to purposely or errantly muck with viruses with "causing" them. Viruses happen all the time in both the human and animal (and plant) worlds without any consideration of the moral/health practices of people. And did you know that people who are too clean all too often end up causing themselves and their families to have more allergies and to be more susceptible to disease than they otherwise would be. It is fitting, of course, that one can overdo cleanliness just like one can overdo the god thing.

Keep in mind that you live on a planet where sun cancers have gone up because of sunscreen (people spend more time in the sun because they think sunscreen makes them safe) and a world where the use of sea salt, which is seen by many as healthier, has caused blood pressure rates to go up because people think they can eat more of it. We humans can make anything a negative if given a chance.

Quote
Either way Ron freewill explains it.  Which I have included in every answer I've given you.  Freewill is a gift from God, IMO.  Some people use it for good; some people abuse it.

And some people abuse the free will of innocent victims by raping/killing them. Which means that the bad guy gets to have more free will than the victim. Which is cute and all, but irksome otherwise. And until a believer can explain to me why freewill is important unless it gets in the way of a bad persons free will, I shall go ahead and consider the whole religious take on what free will is a bunch of bunk. If my freewill is currently important, and I'm busy using it either to believe in god or not, and along comes a bad guy (either a believer or not) and conks me over the head with a crowbar, how is my freewill of any use to me?

And before you run around saying I had a chance to believe or whatever before getting conked, you need also to be able to answer this. When the victim is a small child, or even a baby, who has had no chance to develop his or her free will, where is the wonderful part of that?
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Online jaimehlers

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5092
  • Darwins +586/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #132 on: July 11, 2013, 09:57:58 AM »
If the people suffering don't die their suffering is prolonged.  The body breaks down.  It is painful, death is mercy.
And that is the point he is actually trying to make.  There have been documented cases where someone has been fatally injured in such a way that they were looking at a lingering (as in, weeks-long), excruciatingly painful death (for example, having their abdomen punctured, especially if it cut or severed the intestines, before the advent of antibiotics).  In those cases, other people would very often give them a coup de grace so that they would not suffer needlessly.  But it never happens as an act of divine grace.  They never simply die painlessly a few seconds or minutes or hours after suffering that injury.  No, even if they're devoutly praying for death, it doesn't come until they've weakened to the point where their body's systems simply can't keep them alive any longer - unless a person gives them a mercy killing.

Quote from: junebug72
Answer me a question please.  If there is an afterlife of the spectacular kind, is dying such a terrible thing?  Yes or no please.
Yes.  Because it is that belief that there might be a "spectacular afterlife" that fuels the fear of death, and which makes it so terrible.  In actual fact, death is nothing special - simply the cessation of life functions.  Every atom is still there, and it will continue to exist as part of something else.  That's not really all that bad, especially if the things you did are remembered by other people.

No, the idea of death being terrible came directly from the belief that there might be life after death - but only for the ones that God thinks is worthy of it.  How many people do you think worry about whether they're one of God's chosen who will live on after death?  How many do you think wonder if they aren't destined for some other fate?  How much suffering do you think they put themselves through during their lives because they aren't sure if they'll live on?

Offline nebula

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Darwins +5/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #133 on: July 11, 2013, 10:09:33 AM »
I take it Junebug you can't answer why your god allows gratuitous suffering before death? Any other theists want to venture an opinion?

God isn't omniscient.   There is an aspect of God that is deluded.   This aspect is having a 'dream of separation.'   A dream of separation is one in which a single perspective is split into many simultaneous, independent streams which correspond to each particle, object and life form via neutral monism.   Since God's perspective is split, it doesn't have an overall perspective.   

Currently, God only knows what each life form alive today knows.   If no living person knows how to eradicate the world's suffering, it means that God doesn't know how to do it.   So it's not that God 'allows' suffering, just as we don't 'allow' tsunamis.  It just doesn't know how to eradicate it.

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6627
  • Darwins +796/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • If you are religious, you are misconcepted
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #134 on: July 11, 2013, 10:14:30 AM »
Currently, God only knows what each life form alive today knows.   If no living person knows how to eradicate the world's suffering, it means that God doesn't know how to do it.   So it's not that God 'allows' suffering, just as we don't 'allow' tsunamis.  It just doesn't know how to eradicate it.

I know how to make the world a much better place. I can't fix the tsunami part, but I know how to end war immediately. But your god isn't taking advantage of that information. Why not?

Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline nebula

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Darwins +5/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #135 on: July 11, 2013, 10:34:00 AM »
I know how to make the world a much better place. I can't fix the tsunami part, but I know how to end war immediately. But your god isn't taking advantage of that information. Why not?

As I said, God's perspective is split and it has no overall perspective or overall awareness of the universe apart from what each particle, object or life form knows of the universe individually.   What you know is EXACTLY what one aspect of God knows.   I am not saying you are a collection point that siphons information up to an omniscient God who knows how to put your plans into action.   If you don't know how to take advantage of the information you have, neither does the deluded aspect of God, which is the only aspect of God with any awareness of the universe.

Offline John 3 16

  • Graduate
  • ****
  • Posts: 368
  • Darwins +1/-14
  • Gender: Male
  • Darwins +0/-1,000,000,000
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #136 on: July 11, 2013, 10:38:33 AM »
Currently, God only knows what each life form alive today knows.   If no living person knows how to eradicate the world's suffering, it means that God doesn't know how to do it.   So it's not that God 'allows' suffering, just as we don't 'allow' tsunamis.  It just doesn't know how to eradicate it.
Then why call him "God"?
Are you a hatheist?  (hey-thee-ist)

A person who vocally hates on religious individuals, often criticizing such persons for being uneducated hillbillies.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6888
  • Darwins +927/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #137 on: July 11, 2013, 10:40:02 AM »
Nebula, there is no way you know this stuff. How could you possibly say what god knows and does not know? Are you in personal contact with god? If you are, please call CNN and let the world know.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6627
  • Darwins +796/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • If you are religious, you are misconcepted
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #138 on: July 11, 2013, 10:41:28 AM »
I know how to make the world a much better place. I can't fix the tsunami part, but I know how to end war immediately. But your god isn't taking advantage of that information. Why not?

As I said, God's perspective is split and it has no overall perspective or overall awareness of the universe apart from what each particle, object or life form knows of the universe individually.   What you know is EXACTLY what one aspect of God knows.   I am not saying you are a collection point that siphons information up to an omniscient God who knows how to put your plans into action.   If you don't know how to take advantage of the information you have, neither does the deluded aspect of God, which is the only aspect of God with any awareness of the universe.

In the post I was responding to you said  "If no living person knows how to eradicate the world's suffering, it means that God doesn't know how to do it." So when I responded, telling you that I know how to end war (meaning that, as per your first post, that god should too), you changed the goal posts and said he can't do diddly with what I know. Now of course you are tasked with coming up with an excuse for the fact that i noticed that. But I'm sure you'll do fine.

With your new version of christianity you are going to have to get used to these inconveniences. Because every other version has had to do the same thing. When you're making stuff up on the fly and calling it the ultimate truth, you kinda gotta wing it.

There is a reason for that. Don't ever say that you haven't been warned. Your god may not be able to tell you these things, but I can.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6888
  • Darwins +927/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #139 on: July 11, 2013, 10:43:12 AM »
No evidence of god would be personal appearances, better outcomes for believers, or worse outcomes for non believers
Epidemic.
Do you wish there were a god?

Why does that matter? Wishing will not make a god exist if there is no god. If wishes were horses, we'd all be in the Kentucky Derby. I wish I had a billion dollars and looked like Halle Berry. So what?  &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6888
  • Darwins +927/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #140 on: July 11, 2013, 10:47:01 AM »
I don't know why God allows gratuitous sufferings. (Who determines anything is gratuitous anyway?)

But if there were no gratuitous sufferings, that is not an evidence for the existence of God either.

You don't know why god allows anything.

Both good and bad people suffer. Sometimes good people suffer and bad people don't. Earthquakes don't spare the good people or the innocent animals. And the benefits of better sanitation improve everyone's lives, good and bad alike.

The world is amoral, exactly as if there was no god.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2278
  • Darwins +415/-8
  • Ex-rosary squad
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #141 on: July 11, 2013, 10:48:31 AM »
Currently, God only knows what each life form alive today knows.   If no living person knows how to eradicate the world's suffering, it means that God doesn't know how to do it.   So it's not that God 'allows' suffering, just as we don't 'allow' tsunamis.  It just doesn't know how to eradicate it.
Then why call him "God"?
I find this to be a valid question.  I'd like to respin it another way for you nebula:
Is there a difference between what you call 'god' and 'the sum total of reality'?  If so, what are those differences?  If not, why not just refer to 'sum total of reality' and ditch the other baggage that usually comes with the word 'god' (independent, sentient will, omni-capabilities, etc.)?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline Star Stuff

  • Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 5783
  • Darwins +151/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • Carbon-based life form.
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #142 on: July 11, 2013, 10:52:56 AM »
If wishes were horses, we'd all be in the Kentucky Derby.

Thank you - thank you - thank you.  I've been waiting for the opportunity to post this:


God is an Imaginary Friend for Grown-ups

Offline nebula

  • Undergraduate
  • ***
  • Posts: 123
  • Darwins +5/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #143 on: July 11, 2013, 10:55:12 AM »
In the post I was responding to you said  "If no living person knows how to eradicate the world's suffering, it means that God doesn't know how to do it." So when I responded, telling you that I know how to end war (meaning that, as per your first post, that god should too), you changed the goal posts and said he can't do diddly with what I know. Now of course you are tasked with coming up with an excuse for the fact that i noticed that. But I'm sure you'll do fine.

With your new version of christianity you are going to have to get used to these inconveniences. Because every other version has had to do the same thing. When you're making stuff up on the fly and calling it the ultimate truth, you kinda gotta wing it.

There is a reason for that. Don't ever say that you haven't been warned. Your god may not be able to tell you these things, but I can.

If you know how to end war then why don't you do it?   Because you don't have the ability/power to put your plan into action?   Then that is what the aspect of God that knows how to end war (i.e. you) believes.   This aspect doesn't know it has any power to put the plan into action, and that's why it doesn't.

Suppose you are having a dream in which you have broken both of your legs.   In the dream, you can't stand up due to your apparently broken legs.   Within the dream, you have no power to stand up.   It's the same thing.   

Offline ParkingPlaces

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6627
  • Darwins +796/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • If you are religious, you are misconcepted
Re: The Evil Problem
« Reply #144 on: July 11, 2013, 10:56:44 AM »
Do you wish there were a god?

Can I answer this?

What good is wishing? Either there is a god or gods, or there isn't. If there are, my wishing is frickin' irrelevant, and if there are not, my wishing accomplishes nothing.

If I had one wish that could come true, I wouldn't waste it on conjuring up an ill-defined deity. I'd do something useful like end war or hunger or global domination by capitalists and power-mongers.

No, I don't wish there was a god, because I can't conceive of one that would do any good. You religious types have yet to conjure up anything even remotely appealing, and I don't have the ego necessary to think I could do better.

I do wish that people didn't have the misconception that there is one, though.

That doesn't seem to help much either. The religious are just too darned stubborn.
Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!