The Evil Problem

[Jstwebbrowsing]

But how does that apply to a three year old girl trapped at the bottom of a well, suffering a long painful death over many days, no witnesses, no one to have their character built by witnessing it?

I want to emphasize that all suffering is not character building.  The Bible mentions Christians suffering for doing good.  That is very different from suffering over accidents, and possibly neglect.  Although I hope someone involved learned something so it does not happen again.

To use the father analogy; yes I can understand letting an adult child make a mistake and learn from it; but an infant?

Imagine if the Prodigal son had a young child that he took with him and bad things happened to the child.  Who would be responsible for the suffering of the child?

Of course the father in the story cannot see everything like God can, but the story still applies.

I think I get what you're trying to say JWB; as a father you let your adult child make their mistakes and live by them; fair enough. But you also allow your three year old granddaughter to suffer without limit because your feckless son has become, say, a heroin addict. As a non-believer, I genuinely cannot understand how or why theists would try to defend their god when the god takes this position.

Even as children there were times I let experience teach my children.  Of course I was always there to make sure things could only get so bad before I would step in and shelter them.  I would never let any irrepairable harm come to them.  Of course, with two adult children I am little more than an advice giver.  God is the same.  The only difference is that he's able to let things go further.  What he considers irrepairable harm is different than my definition.

I think one thing that is important to understand is that God does not always deal with us on a one on one basis.  He does to an extent and is a personal God, but he also deals with us as a group, one group.  The good and the bad are both in this group and to a large extent he treats us all the same.  We all get the good and the bad.  This will tie in to my reply to ParkingPlaces.  Please read that reply.

So if suffering is so good for us, why is it distributed so unevenly by your god? Why did my friend Judy, very very religious, loose one son via a bee sting and anaphylactic shock, her daughter in a car wreck, have her brother shoot her parents to death over a girlfriend issue (a girl that she introduced her brother to). And she is one of the most religious people I know, and was religious before any of this happened. While little old me, denier of any god whatsoever, with my healthy kids and my non-trauma filled life, have had none of that.

The book of Ecclesiastes contains the answer.  "I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."  (Ecc 9:11 ASV)

I really cannot answer it better than that and this is somewhat what affected the child that fell into a well.  We are all in the same boat, the good and the bad.  Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people.  When the Bible says "he makes their (his servants) path straight", it does not mean nothing bad will ever happen.  It means they do not have to guess about what is good and what is bad.  That path is straight.

The whole moral of the story is that man thinks he does not need God.  Rather than doing something else God is allowing us to test our "theory".  To an extent God has abandoned us.  Not completely or we would all be without life.  But he is allowing us to fully experience life without his protection.  Man's theory cannot be tested if he places a hedge of protection around us, or even some of us, so that nothing bad happens.  That would corrupt our experiment.

Who can protect us from "time and chance"?  Only God, but man is not in a place where God will offer his protection.  If man wants his protection then man must return to God as the Prodigal Son returned to his father.  The fact that the good suffer in this manner because of the bad only fills up his judgment that is coming upon the earth  -- when mankind finally realizes it's folly.  Unfortunately, the Bible shows this will not occur until it is too late and man is on the brink of extinction.  This is when he will step in and seperate the good from the bad so that the good do not suffer the same fate and save us from extinction.

Those that are left will then fully experience his protection along with the multitudes he resurrects upon the earth that have died in the past, including the child that died in the well.   Man will then have a demonstration of life under God's rule instead of man's.  At the end of this 1000 demonstration, after mankind has been lifted to perfection, final judgment will be rendered and the issue will never be raised again.

[William]

When the Bible says "he makes their (his servants) path straight", it does not mean nothing bad will ever happen.  It means they do not have to guess about what is good and what is bad.  That path is straight.

But what about the dead people? The ones that died to make someone else's "path straight"?  Where is their prematurely cut short path leading?
This whole idea does not make sense. It makes God repulsive in the extreme.  That God would engineer a death to create a mere hint - when He could appear in person like he used to in the OT, or send a fucking Angel or something.

An entity that kills people to nudge other people back onto a "path" is as sick as any mass murderer upon whom we'd happily approve a drone strike - certainly not worthy of worship! 

[Ron Jeremy]

So if everyone were to believe in biblegod, earthquakes that kill, tsunamis that drown children would all stop? It really seems to me that if this god existed, he's little more than a cruel monster. Thank goodness he doesn't exist.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

But what about the dead people? The ones that died to make someone else's "path straight"?  Where is their prematurely cut short path leading?

To eternal life.

This whole idea does not make sense. It makes God repulsive in the extreme.  That God would engineer a death to create a mere hint

If I led you to believe that then my answer was not sufficient.  God does not engineer the death of anyone.  It is man that chooses to live seperate from God.

when He could appear in person like he used to in the OT, or send a fucking Angel or something.

What was the result of him appearing in person or sending angels?  A few benefitted, but the majority did not.  Israel's worship itself was eventually wholly rejected when they killed God's very own son, who came working many miracles.  This argument has already been addressed and there is no need to repeat it.  To know God exists is not sufficient reason to follow him.  Satan knows he exists.

Today he has given us something different.  He has given us the Bible, which is in itself a miracle and worth more than the appearance of an angel and it is something people of old did not possess.  One must only make proper use of it.  In those pages he has promised to fill us with his spirit.  There is nothing worth more than that.  Instead of complaining about what he has not given us, we should first make use of what he has given us. 

[Ron Jeremy]

Is it the case that theists cannot accept that any event without a human cause can happen without intelligent planning? They have to ascribe a cause to everything, the easiest one being a god? And are atheists simply people that are able to comprehend that events not caused by human beings do not require intelligent planning?

I genuinely cannot understand why theists, including some of my family, cannot understand that a girl falling down a well is simply a tragic accident. The 2004 tsunami was simply an undersea earthquake, nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with human beings not believing in an invisible supernatural being.

[Star Stuff]

Today he has given us something different.  He has given us the Bible, which is in itself a miracle and worth more than the appearance of an angel and it is something people of old did not possess.  One must only make proper use of it.  In those pages he has promised to fill us with his spirit.  There is nothing worth more than that.  Instead of complaining about what he has not given us, we should first make use of what he has given us.

Ahh, yet another person hypnotized by a book.  One book.  I respectfully suggest that you take some time to look at the bible in a different fashion (you know - critically).  Please spend some time here, and then tell me if this is the best that a deity can do.  Please don't look at it for 8 seconds as I suspect you might, but really do some reading.



“The Good Book” - one of the most remarkable euphemisms ever coined.  (Ashley Montagu)


Beware of the man of one book.  (Thomas Aquinas)


Much of the Bible or the Quran is just life-destroying gibberish, and we just have to acknowledge this and cease to take these books seriously.  (Sam Harris)


If your holy book gave laws about how to keep slaves, your holy book is disqualified as a source for developing a moral code.

[William]

To eternal life.

Wow, so everyone God killed directly or whom God instructed others to kill goes to heaven?  How cool is that as a shortcut to heaven! 

Deuteronomy 7   When the Lord thy God shall bring thee into the land whither thou goest to possess it, and hath cast out many nations before thee, the Hittites, and the Girgashites, and the Amorites, and the Canaanites, and the Perizzites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites, seven nations greater and mightier than thou;

2 And when the Lord thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

Wow, that's seven entire nations straight to heaven.  Lucky buggers for getting in God's way.
Please tell me quickly how I can get God to turn me into a pillar of salt.  To teach others around me not to look back!
Once I'm salt I go straight to heaven, right?
Or get me real close (like lethal) to the scene of an Islamic suicide bombing - a bit more noisy but faster and less thirsty - take me there!!!!!  Teach my child not to entertain Islam and I go straight to heaven, through no fault of my own, for eternity.

If I led you to believe that then my answer was not sufficient.  God does not engineer the death of anyone.  It is man that chooses to live seperate from God.

Ooopsie! I thought you were responding to the comment about the child who died from a bee sting!
Sorry I got it wrong.
But now I don't know what to think 

What was the result of him appearing in person or sending angels?  A few benefitted, but the majority did not.  Israel's worship itself was eventually wholly rejected when they killed God's very own son, who came working many miracles.

Funny that it was God's plan to have a little piece of Himself killed, to be the saviour. No bloody wonder God couldn't afford to be convincing enough to the Jews - His plans would've been screwed if Jesus had been convincing enough to be believed by the Jews. 

Today he has given us something different.  He has given us the Bible, which is in itself a miracle and worth more than the appearance of an angel and it is something people of old did not possess.  One must only make proper use of it.  In those pages he has promised to fill us with his spirit.  There is nothing worth more than that.  Instead of complaining about what he has not given us, we should first make use of what he has given us.

Okay fine.  I'll give it a week.  I'll only focus only on the Bible.  I promise.  Here is a start.

Is the God of the Old Testament the same as the God of the New Testament?  If not, what was it about God that changed?

[Jstwebbrowsing]

Is it the case that theists cannot accept that any event without a human cause can happen without intelligent planning? They have to ascribe a cause to everything, the easiest one being a god? And are atheists simply people that are able to comprehend that events not caused by human beings do not require intelligent planning?

I genuinely cannot understand why theists, including some of my family, cannot understand that a girl falling down a well is simply a tragic accident. The 2004 tsunami was simply an undersea earthquake, nothing, absolutely nothing, to do with human beings not believing in an invisible supernatural being.

I cannot say for certain but as one having been raised like that I do know that partly it comes from misapplication of scripture.  There are a couple primary ones that come to mind.

"Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom can be no variation, neither shadow that is cast by turning."  (James 1:17 ASV)

"And we know that to them that love God all things work together for good, even to them that are called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28 ASV)

If they ever read that Solomon said "time and chance happen to use all", they're eyes glazed over while reading it or being unable to put the two thoughts together they kept one thought while rejecting the other.  Neither of those scriptures say that God causes everything to happen.

Ahh, yet another person hypnotized by a book.  One book.  I respectfully suggest that you take some time to look at the bible in a different fashion (you know - critically).  Please spend some time here, and then tell me if this is the best that a deity can do.  Please don't look at it for 8 seconds as I suspect you might, but really do some reading.

Some of these things I have already been over in my own studies.  Before considering what is said one must first sift through what is and isn't true.  Here is an example.

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker?  Answer: God.

All translations do not render this scripture that way.  A more accurate translation reads, "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found......" (ASV)

The fact that it is not talking about rape is more evident in Exodus 22:16 where the same law is restated.  "If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife." (NIV)

I recommend you approach such web sites with the same critical analysis as you use to approach the Bible.

Wow, so everyone God killed directly or whom God instructed others to kill goes to heaven?  How cool is that as a shortcut to heaven! 

I apologize.  I misunderstood what you are asking.  I thought you were asking about those that may have died as martyrs.  Everyone that God killed directy has no future.

Is the God of the Old Testament the same as the God of the New Testament?  If not, what was it about God that changed?

God is the same.  The only difference is that we are bound by the new covenant and not the old covenant.  For example, we do not practice eye for eye justice.  We practice mercy.

[William]

Wow, so everyone God killed directly or whom God instructed others to kill goes to heaven?  How cool is that as a shortcut to heaven! 

I apologize.  I misunderstood what you are asking.  I thought you were asking about those that may have died as martyrs.  Everyone that God killed directy has no future.

Bugger!  Okay then.
Oh wait.  "No future" sounds attractive.  So nobody bothers them after they are dead.  Just total peace and quiet? Sounds like heaven to me

Is the God of the Old Testament the same as the God of the New Testament?  If not, what was it about God that changed?

God is the same.  The only difference is that we are bound by the new covenant and not the old covenant.  For example, we do not practice eye for eye justice.  We practice mercy.

Mmmmm.  God is the same but changed His mind about His Terms of Business. So He became wiser?    Isn't that a change?  Or was it just the legal team in heaven that persuaded God to change His covenant?  God stayed the same but His legal advice changed?

As an aside - God/Jesus seems to have changed their MO a bit.  Fewer appearances and miracles compared to the OT.  Okay, maybe a few carefully selected miracles via dead Catholics contending for Sainthood. 

But I digress - back to the Bible as I promised:

Matthew 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I don't see where a "New Covenant" fits into that quite definitive legal framework - till the end of the universe!?!?! 

[Star Stuff]

Some of these things I have already been over in my own studies.  Before considering what is said one must first sift through what is and isn't true.  Here is an example.

If a man is caught in the act of raping a young woman who is not engaged, he must pay fifty pieces of silver to her father.  Then he must marry the young woman because he violated her, and he will never be allowed to divorce her.

What kind of lunatic would make a rape victim marry her attacker?  Answer: God.

All translations do not render this scripture that way.  A more accurate translation reads, "If a man find a damsel that is a virgin, which is not betrothed, and lay hold on her, and lie with her, and they be found......" (ASV)

The fact that it is not talking about rape is more evident in Exodus 22:16 where the same law is restated.  "If a man seduces a virgin who is not pledged to be married and sleeps with her, he must pay the bride-price, and she shall be his wife." (NIV)

I recommend you approach such web sites with the same critical analysis as you use to approach the Bible.

Is that it?  That little hermeneutic game of twister is all you have?  In your tissue-thin exercise of special pleading, you have failed to see the entire point, which is:  Are the pages & pages of primitive, barbaric, tribal, patriarchal nonsense really what we should expect from the creator of the universe in his one & only communication to mankind?  Gimme a feekin' break!



All that is necessary, as it seems to me, to convince any reasonable person that the Bible is simply and purely of human invention, of barbarian invention, is to read it.  Read it as you would any other book. Think of it as you would of any other; get the bandage of reverence from your eyes; drive from your heart the phantom of fear; push from the throne of your brain the cowled form of superstition. Then read the Holy Bible, and you will be amazed that you ever, for one moment, supposed a being of infinite wisdom, goodness and purity, to be the author of such ignorance and of such atrocity.  (Robert G. Ingersoll)

[Jstwebbrowsing]

Bugger!  Okay then.
Oh wait.  "No future" sounds attractive.  So nobody bothers them after they are dead.  Just total peace and quiet? Sounds like heaven to me.

That is correct.

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not anything, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten.  As well their love, as their hatred and their envy, is perished long ago; neither have they any more a portion for ever in anything that is done under the sun."  (Ecc 9:5-6 ASV)

"The soul that sinneth, it shall die...." (Eze 18:20)

Mmmmm.  God is the same but changed His mind about His Terms of Business. So He became wiser?    Isn't that a change?  Or was it just the legal team in heaven that persuaded God to change His covenant?  God stayed the same but His legal advice changed?

As an aside - God/Jesus seems to have changed their MO a bit.  Fewer appearances and miracles compared to the OT.  Okay, maybe a few carefully selected miracles via dead Catholics contending for Sainthood. 

But I digress - back to the Bible as I promised:

 Matthew 5:17-18
17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.

I don't see where a "New Covenant" fits into that quite definitive legal framework - till the end of the universe!?!?!

Here you are still scratching the surface.  I've not said the law has been destroyed.  Jesus did not destroy it but he did do something to it.  He fulfilled it, or in other words he completed it.  Since the old covenant was complete a new one was made.  The law still serves a purpose and it forever will, but the old covenant is over.

Are the pages & pages of primitive, barbaric, tribal, patriarchal nonsense really what we should expect from the creator of the universe in his one & only communication to mankind?  Gimme a feekin' break!

That is all you see because you are stuck at the surface and prefer to believe any slander leveled against it.  Truth lies beneath the surface, and unlike human reasoning that is here today and different tomorrow, truth does not change.  The Bible is true because all of it's principles are infallible, yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

[Star Stuff]

That is all you see because you are stuck at the surface and prefer to believe any slander leveled against it.

No, I am not "stuck at the surface".  I was just like you for 25 years; a "true believer".  I used to make all the same excuses and rationalizations that you are employing here.  So I'm quite familiar with "belief", and what it does to the mind; it turns it to stone.

Truth lies beneath the surface, and unlike human reasoning that is here today and different tomorrow, truth does not change.

And yet what you fail to appreciate is that christianity has changed so much over time that the christianity that you think & feel is the "one true" perspective would be unrecognizable if you were transported back in time.  Christianity has bent, conformed and modified itself due to the pressures of modernity, reason and secular values.

The Bible is true because all of it's principles are infallible, yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

It's principles?  Which ones?  And please outline how those principles were nonexistent for all of humanity for 100's of thousands of years around the globe until the bible showed up.

[ParkingPlaces]

So if suffering is so good for us, why is it distributed so unevenly by your god? Why did my friend Judy, very very religious, loose one son via a bee sting and anaphylactic shock, her daughter in a car wreck, have her brother shoot her parents to death over a girlfriend issue (a girl that she introduced her brother to). And she is one of the most religious people I know, and was religious before any of this happened. While little old me, denier of any god whatsoever, with my healthy kids and my non-trauma filled life, have had none of that.

The book of Ecclesiastes contains the answer.  "I returned, and saw under the sun, that the race is not to the swift, nor the battle to the strong, neither yet bread to the wise, nor yet riches to men of understanding, nor yet favor to men of skill; but time and chance happeneth to them all."  (Ecc 9:11 ASV)

Lucky you. Even the bible says it will happen by chance, over time, and so even though bad things appear random, they are not. Or something like that.

But random appears random to me. On top of that, science can explain and even predict that there will always (under current geological conditions) be more and bigger earthquakes in California and Japan than in Europe and western Africa, and medicine can, if you get to the doctor on time, save a person stung by a bee, all of this is nonetheless just random stuff allowed by god to confirm his or her existence. So while the randomness is allowed by god, and visible to people, it is god blessed and we just have to live with it.

Or it is random, but can be made to look otherwise by people who really really need it not to be truly random. Which is what I assume is closer to the truth.

I really cannot answer it better than that and this is somewhat what affected the child that fell into a well.  We are all in the same boat, the good and the bad.  Good things happen to bad people and bad things happen to good people.  When the Bible says "he makes their (his servants) path straight", it does not mean nothing bad will ever happen.  It means they do not have to guess about what is good and what is bad.  That path is straight.

The whole moral of the story is that man thinks he does not need God.  Rather than doing something else God is allowing us to test our "theory".  To an extent God has abandoned us.  Not completely or we would all be without life.  But he is allowing us to fully experience life without his protection.  Man's theory cannot be tested if he places a hedge of protection around us, or even some of us, so that nothing bad happens.  That would corrupt our experiment.

Okay, let me get this straight. I think that there is no god (which I assume translates into christian speak as "I think I do not need god). And your god is allowing me to test that theory by not letting a single serious bad thing happen to me my whole life. Now of course I ain't dead yet, so he still has a few weeks, but JC's pop is running out of time here, and as I go through life fully experiencing it without his protection, and as I get through it just fine, that is proof positive that I need him how?

Well, either his standards are low or mine are too high or something. But it ain't working. I know it doesn't do any good to complain to you, so I'll go straight to the big guy. Hey, god, if you are there, do something horrible to me so I can come to understand how much you love me and how much you care about me not only now but throughout all of infinity.

Of course, if you're not there, never mind.

Who can protect us from "time and chance"?  Only God, but man is not in a place where God will offer his protection.  If man wants his protection then man must return to God as the Prodigal Son returned to his father.  The fact that the good suffer in this manner because of the bad only fills up his judgment that is coming upon the earth  -- when mankind finally realizes it's folly.  Unfortunately, the Bible shows this will not occur until it is too late and man is on the brink of extinction.  This is when he will step in and seperate the good from the bad so that the good do not suffer the same fate and save us from extinction.

So in the meantime, since we aren't yet on the brink (I know, I know, we're like, you know, really really close to the brink), so close you can almost taste it, but we're not on the brink yet, and my friend Judy has gone through all kinds of hell while waiting. Time and chance and mucked up her life and her happiness in multitudinous ways while I've sailed through unscathed by all the hard work your god has put into testing us. And I, while waiting and not even knowing it because I'm a not a believer, have just been bored silly while waiting for something I don't think I'm waiting for.

A vegan bitch (we still have them, by the way) in the garden tasted the wrong fruit and suddenly all humankind is guilty of being class A sinners. And for 6,000 years we have sat around follyizing ourselves (except me, of course, because things have gone too well for me to notice) and any day now JC will pop back into existence, fix it up nice for the good guys and toss me and other disbelievers/sinners/wrong religionists into the frying pan of reality, because he loves us so frickin' much. So instead of not experiencing his protection (and getting along fine) I will experience his deliberate non-protection because I should have known that, things going well and all that, that I was cruising for a bruising, because nothing happened to me.

I think I've almost got it.

Those that are left will then fully experience his protection along with the multitudes he resurrects upon the earth that have died in the past, including the child that died in the well.   Man will then have a demonstration of life under God's rule instead of man's.  At the end of this 1000 demonstration, after mankind has been lifted to perfection, final judgment will be rendered and the issue will never be raised again.

So lets say for the sake of argument I become a christian this evening instead of going to the movies, and I'm all saved and stuff, and JC shows up on Wednesday and separates the wheat from the chaff and I get whisked off to some safe place while Jetson, Ron Jeremy, William, Graybeard, screwtape, et al, get stir fried via instructions from a loving but pissed god.

How will I know the difference? Other than not having access to the forum, I mean? If nothing bad happened before the return, and nothing bad happens after the return, won't it just seem like another day to me? How is that a lesson? And am I going to end up being bored for all of eternity? If so, that really sucks, man.

[Graybeard]

Hi folks. A good few years ago I started to really look into the idea of Christian Bible god as maybe something I should get into (social life seemed quite full, free wine and I'm really interested how everything came to be). Although I read the bible and talked with Christians, I also read Dawkins and Hitchens, plus sites like this, and rather quickly agreed fully with the atheist point of view.

My question to you is about evil and the responses to theists as to why it exists.

Am I correct in thinking that Christians are split into those that believe the bible literally, that therefore if you believe in Genesis all evil in the world resulted from Adam and Eve's fall from grace […] Therefore evil does not have to exist?
 

No, I don’t get that from the Bible. At the time of Eden, man was allegedly no more than an automaton built for the amusement of God and in His image. Adam was immortal but with no knowledge of good and evil. Man was like a child including a child’s experiences and education.[1]

He then ate of the fruit of the Tree Of Knowledge and became aware. At this point God says that Man has become like the Gods with (it is implied, “amongst other things”) a knowledge of Good and Evil.[2]

Now Free Will kicks in. Despite the fact that the 10 Commandments do not appear until later, Mankind is given the knowledge of how to behave by the story of the Fall and it's implication that you must obey God[3]. There then follows “the first murder”. This is the ultimate example of evil and shows what happens when man is left to his own resources.

Thus the idea is that if you or your nation are suffering evils or have been struck down, then it is because you have sinned against Yahweh and his Torah; if you or your nation are healthy and prosperous, then it is because you have keep Yahweh’s laws and statues and Yahweh has blessed you. If you don’t remember doing anything bad, then it was your parents’ fault.

1.	There is absolutely no doubt that the Jews of the time regarded Yahweh (or as he then was, part of the Elohim, the council of Gods) as an old Jewish man who lived in the sky. Only a few Christians believe this now, and they are the ones who think that you can live in outer-space without breathing.
2.	The difficulty here is that prior to the eating of the Fruit of The Tree of Knowledge, as Man did not know good from evil, he could not have known that it was wrong to disobey a god. However, setting this aside…
3.	Or at least those who say that they are in touch with god.

[shnozzola]

...... truth does not change.  The Bible is true because all of it's principles are infallible, yesterday, today, and tomorrow.

How about the "end of times?"  Seems like an important principle of the Bible, yes?  Tell me how you interpret truth relating to Jesus words from Matthew:

24:27 For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:28 For wheresoever the carcase is, there will the eagles be gathered together.
24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
24:32 Now learn a parable of the fig tree; When his branch is yet tender, and putteth forth leaves, ye know that summer is nigh:
24:33 So likewise ye, when ye shall see all these things, know that it is near, even at the doors.
24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.
24:35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
24:36 But of that day and that hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
24:37 But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,
24:39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.
24:40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.
24:41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

With current science, I can understand a direct hit from a large enough asteroid doing some of this (would you call that an act of god, like everything is a preordained act of god?). But taking one woman at the mill but not the other - that seems like more of a rapture thing - not a stars falling from the heavens type of thing.  Do you think this expected end, predicted some 2000 years ago, MAY not be true?  Have you interpreted it to apply to each person at their death?

[nebula]

It really seems to me that if this god existed, he's little more than a cruel monster.

I've taken this sentence out of its original context as part of a paragraph because I just want to respond to this main idea that God is cruel.   I disagree with it. 

In my belief, God isn't omniscient.   There is a certain aspect of God that is being tricked.  This aspect of God is under the illusion that the universe is real just as we are under the illusion that our dreamworlds are real when we're dreaming.   The universe is a 'dream of separation' in which an aspect of God falls under the delusion that it is individual particles, objects and lifeforms.   It isn't something that is planned by God any more than our random dreams are planned.

Just to give it a name, I will call the aspect of God that is dreaming Christ.  Let me ask you a question.   I know that these aren't your beliefs but just for the sake of argument, assuming for a moment that the universe is illusory and that Christ is dreaming, should God wake him up?    Is this a nightmare that should be stopped immediately or is it a relatively good dream that should be allowed to continue?   

The way I see it, the answer depends on how optimistic you are.   If you think the bad outweighs the good then God is cruel for allowing Christ to fall into a delusion in the first place.   But if you think the good outweighs the bad then God is benevolent for allowing it to play out. 

[Ron Jeremy]

Hi Nebula. In your hypothetical example, waking up a dreamer who has managed to create sentient self aware independent beings within his dream would result in their destruction.

But you see, your question alone demonstrates to me the poison that religion and belief in imaginary beings brings to humanity. I hear similar sentiments from my family about this nonsense; "Don't put faith in mankind, put it in god" and the odious and sad "Jesus, empty me of me and fill me with you." When you read these type of statements, try replacing an imaginary being with another to see how this sounds in reality; "Don't put faith in mankind, put it in Wizard Gandalf" " Easter Bunny, empty me of me and fill me with you".

The worlds that believers create in their heads don't exist except as wishes. THIS is your one life. Your one and only life. Enjoy it to the full, learn about nature and everything you can, go to pubs, drink beer, travel, don't add suffering or hardship to your fellow creatures, please don't live your life according to a set of rules dreamt up by bronze aged Arabs that didn't know any better. Don't waste your one life!

[nebula]

Hi Nebula. In your hypothetical example, waking up a dreamer who has managed to create sentient self aware independent beings within his dream would result in their destruction.

Yes, it would result in their destruction.   But in the hypothetical example, if God was able, should he have prevented Christ from slipping into a delusion in the first place?   Would you rather the universe that we have exist or for there to have been no big bang, no universe?  I would rather have the former when I'm happy or feeling optimistic and the latter if I'm very distraught over something.   

My belief is that God is omnibenevolent but not omniscient or omnipotent.   For example, God may not have the ability to stop Christ from dreaming/being deluded, or to intervene in overtly miraculous ways for the sake of reducing the suffering of specific dream characters, just as parents don't have the ability to control the dreams of their children or what happens to the characters in those dreams.   

But you see, your question alone demonstrates to me the poison that religion and belief in imaginary beings brings to humanity. I hear similar sentiments from my family about this nonsense; "Don't put faith in mankind, put it in god" and the odious and sad "Jesus, empty me of me and fill me with you." When you read these type of statements, try replacing an imaginary being with another to see how this sounds in reality; "Don't put faith in mankind, put it in Wizard Gandalf" " Easter Bunny, empty me of me and fill me with you".

The worlds that believers create in their heads don't exist except as wishes. THIS is your one life. Your one and only life. Enjoy it to the full, learn about nature and everything you can, go to pubs, drink beer, travel, don't add suffering or hardship to your fellow creatures, please don't live your life according to a set of rules dreamt up by bronze aged Arabs that didn't know any better. Don't waste your one life!

Thank you for your advice.   I will consider it.

[jaimehlers]

No, I don’t get that from the Bible. At the time of Eden, man was allegedly no more than an automaton built for the amusement of God and in His image. Adam was immortal but with no knowledge of good and evil. Man was like a child including a child’s experiences and education.

Need to correct this.  No matter what Christian theology states, humans were not made immortal, since living forever required the fruit of the tree of life.  Despite YHWH's threat that humans would die if they ate of the other tree's fruit, it's pretty obvious that they did not in fact die when they ate it, since they needed to be kicked out of the garden so they would not live forever as well as having knowledge of good and evil.  If they needed the fruit of the tree of life to live forever, they clearly can't have been immortal to begin with, meaning they would have died eventually.

[Ron Jeremy]

Neb, I'd view your hypothesis as being the same as any prospective parent; can the parents look after the children and allow the children to grow and live as adults?

In the case you've mentioned, both the god and this Christ fellow will not allow the sentient beings to go their own way. If they dare not love god or christ then they will be tortured for eternity. Probably in this case its best not to allow the delusional individual to create sentient beings in the first place, they strike me as neglectful parents.

[ParkingPlaces]

The Adam and Eve/Tree of Life/Good and Evil thing has a curious aspect.

If god had just pumped out our reality, which had never existed before, and made totally inexperienced newbies, and given them instructions, etc., where did the original "knowledge" of evil come from? If god knew that "evil" was a possibility, why did he make beings that were so capable of it? His expertise in all matters should have allowed him to modify our genetics so that we were not capable of evil, while still leaving free will if that was destined to be important. Free will doesn't require that humans have a huge range of options.We can't lick our elbows, for instance. Where is our free will to lick our elbows? He could have left evil off the table too.

Now, of course, as an atheist, I don't actually have this question, but why are believers so lax as they accept it? They blame the new kids on the block but give no thought to whose fault it actually was? Not just the temptation, with the Tree of Life, but even providing for the concept of evil in any sense of the word. The dude provided a nice place to live, beautiful weather, a free pass to the local zoo and everything. But he couldn't leave evil out of the formula, even though he was able to leave out vacuums (the empty space, not the machine), meteor showers and other unhealthy things?

This story is a myth because it contains human flaws, not godly ones. It is an effort to explain the lack of perfection, and in the process not only tells why there isn't any, but also it blames and condemns the very humans who tell the story. And the flaws in the tale are there because humans made it all up, not because a god was flawed.

We're like that, aren't we.

Either omnipotent beings need to think of everything or humans need to start taking a little responsibility. The all-powerful god idea is flawed because it is human in origin, and reflects human failings to blatantly that we should all be able to see this non-existent god in our own mirrors. But nope. A whole bunch of us swallow it hook, line and sinker, and then blame ourselves for the existence of hooks, lines and sinkers.

Silly rabbits.

We often hear arguments about what parts of the bible are literal, and which are allegory or metaphor. In fact, the whole bible is allegory. It reveals universal truths from the time, some of which are still relevant today. Like letting us know that not everybody is sweet all the time, and that we all wish we had a way to control our lives merely by asking, etc.  And it reveals the social mindset of middle east desert dwellers a few thousand years ago.

And like other myths (Achilles heel and Pandora's box come to mind), those human truths are somewhat interesting. But it is a lousy reason to burn people at the stake or attack the "Holy Lands" via papal decree. Or to give Pat Robertson more money. Or waste a Sunday morning playing pretend.

[junebug72]

While it is true that certain types of suffering can build character, that is not why God allows evil.  God allows evil because mankind chooses not to obey him and he is allowing it to be demonstrated that mankind has need of him.

I have a different POV.  I believe it is allowed because God loves us.  The only way to get rid of it would be Armageddon.  I believe God has hope that mankind can make good prevail over that evil and everyday is a new opportunity to make that happen.  Evil is not a myth it is part of human reality.  It is not a supernatural power that we can not defeat.  It will take Love and Compassion to eliminate it.  I believe as long as God sees our potential God must allow us to continue.  We must fight the battle for ourselves in order to have honor.

I believe creating us w/o freewill would have been immoral for a god to do.  God did not take freewill from any of the examples provided on this thread a human did. 

Your explanation represents an egotistical God.  I do not except that God allows suffering so that we will need God.  We would need God w/o suffering, IMO.  To need belief that badly displays a god with a very low self esteem.  IMO, I have no doubt that God's self esteem is stronger than that.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

I have a different POV.

What I've discussed here is not my entire POV.

I believe it is allowed because God loves us.

Me too.

The only way to get rid of it would be Armageddon.

Me too.

I believe God has hope that mankind can make good prevail over that evil and everyday is a new opportunity to make that happen.

Me too, but man should make use of the availability of divine help.

Evil is not a myth it is part of human reality.  It is not a supernatural power that we can not defeat.  It will take Love and Compassion to eliminate it.

Me too.

I believe as long as God sees our potential God must allow us to continue.

Me too.

We must fight the battle for ourselves in order to have honor.

Me too.

I believe creating us w/o freewill would have been immoral for a god to do.

Me too.

God did not take freewill from any of the examples provided on this thread a human did.

Agreed. 

Your explanation represents an egotistical God.  I do not except that God allows suffering so that we will need God.  We would need God w/o suffering, IMO.

Suffering is only one reason we need God, and it's not that humans can't do much of this on their own, it's just that they don't and won't and sometimes they just don't know how.  That's why we need God.

To need belief that badly displays a god with a very low self esteem.  IMO, I have no doubt that God's self esteem is stronger than that.

God does not need belief.  Humans need belief.  If humans don't need God to relieve suffering then they are doing a poor job of proving it, being unable to solve the most elementary causes of suffering like starvation, homelessness, and lack of health care.  And it's not that they can't it's that they won't.  That's why we need God's help.  Well there are some thing beyond our control that cause suffering.

God's will was we be perfect humans living in a Edenic paradise under his protection.

[Ron Jeremy]

Mark Twain's words say it better than I ever can;

"If men neglected “God’s poor” and “God’s stricken and helpless ones” as He does, what would become of them? The answer is to be found in those dark lands where man follows His example and turns his indifferent back upon them: they get no help at all; they cry, and plead and pray in vain, they linger and suffer, and miserably die."

Gods do nothing. Not one thing. To claim they 'work through men' is an insult to the people that study and research and toil to alleviate suffering, disease, poverty and hunger. Gods do nothing because they can't; they are imaginary.

Prayer never works. Not once. Imaginary beings cannot grant wishes. Take a crumb of bread and place it in an upturned glass. Pray from now until the end of time for your god to lift that crumb up and stick it to the bottom of the glass. It will never move. We all know this. Theists will already be making excuses for their gods failure before even trying this; "Ganesh must not be tested", "Allah does not perform tricks", "Biblegod doesn't give you what you ask for, he gives you something better."

I hear from believers all the time about how "If I could only see, I would find Jesus" or "If I would take off my blinkers and open my eyes I would see the glory of god."
The sad truth is that it is believers that walk around blind, closing their eyes so they may see only what they want to see.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

Mark Twain's words say it better than I ever can;

Gods do nothing. Not one thing. To claim they 'work through men' is an insult to the people that study and research and toil to alleviate suffering, disease, poverty and hunger. Gods do nothing because they can't; they are imaginary.

The United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization estimates that nearly 870 million people, or one in eight people in the world, were suffering from chronic undernourishment in 2010-2012. Almost all the hungry people, 852 million, live in developing countries, representing 15 percent of the population of developing counties. There are 16 million people undernourished in developed countries.

http://www.worldhunger.org/articles/Learn/world%20hunger%20facts%202002.htm

It is very difficult to determine how many homeless people there are in the world because countries have different legal definitions for homelessness. Natural disasters and sudden civil unrest also complicate the picture. The best we have is a conservative estimate from the United Nations in 2005, which puts the number of homeless at 100 million.

http://www.shelter20.com/homeless-statistics/

By its very nature, homelessness is impossible to measure with 100% accuracy. More important than knowing the precise number of people who experience homelessness is our progress in ending it. Recent studies suggest that the United States generates homelessness at a much higher rate than previously thought.

http://www.nationalhomeless.org/factsheets/How_Many.html

You mean people like those that printed this information?  People like this deserve honor and appreciation.  But I must ask, why have they not been ultimately successful yet after so many thousands of years?

[Ron Jeremy]

Politics, greed, weather, terrain, religious differences, mental illness in the homeless, the list of causes is huge. But nowhere in there is a space for 'because we don't love Thor/Odin/Marduk/Osiris/Biblegod/Ganesh/Vishnu enough'. Because saying that would be precisely, and I mean precisely, the same as saying 'because we don't love Santa Claus enough'.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

Politics, greed, weather, terrain, religious differences, mental illness in the homeless, the list of causes is huge. But nowhere in there is a space for 'because we don't love Thor/Odin/Marduk/Osiris/Biblegod/Ganesh/Vishnu enough'. Because saying that would be precisely, and I mean precisely, the same as saying 'because we don't love Santa Claus enough'.

So how can the problems be fixed?

[Star Stuff]

So how can the problems be fixed?

Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer.

[Jstwebbrowsing]

So how can the problems be fixed?

Two hands working can do more than a thousand clasped in prayer.

Prayerful hands become motived hands.