Author Topic: Bible healings don't count  (Read 3890 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline pianodwarf

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4366
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #29 on: July 01, 2013, 05:44:47 AM »
It is the creationist-believing religious groups who are holding back scientific progress all over the world.

I can't fathom what you mean.  Most scientists believe in God.  Most doctors believe in miracles.
What evidence do you have that science is hindered by these people?

NGFM was talking about creationists.  Most scientists and doctors are not creationists.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #30 on: July 01, 2013, 08:45:46 AM »
.....He therefore could not tell other people how to help women with the same problem. Jesus could not explain the causes of leprosy or blindness. He therefore could not tell people how to treat or prevent those conditions in the future. Jesus healing one person is a publicity stunt, not a medical miracle.

Here's a thought: the gospels were written by people who firmly believed who Jesus was.  If, let's say, Jesus had cured 2 people, and failed to cure 98, do we think the gospels writers would have:

1) Just written about the 2 people cured, because clearly the "failures" were not worthy mentioning and were probably the fault of those people not believing hard enough, or
2) Faithfully reported all 98 failures when writing their gospels, even though they may have seen how much it would have hurt their claims.

BONUS QUESTION: When the church were deciding on which writings to make canon, would they be more, or less, likely to include tales of the 2 and "forget" about the 98?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online wheels5894

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2525
  • Darwins +110/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #31 on: July 01, 2013, 09:06:30 AM »
That's a good point,  Anfauglir. Obviously we can see that only the successes were included in the texts. Of course, one might object and say that Jesus healed lots more people but the gospels include only the few that they do as examples but I wouldn't but that argument without other evidence - like more finds of Gospels that mention it.

The other interesting thing about Jesus' miracles is that, by and large, they are healing things that may well be conditions that are naturally cyclical - like epilepsy for example. That Jesus raises up someone after a fit does not mean they have been healed as the condition will re-occur later.  As for the deaf and blind - well we have no idea what was supposed to be wrong with these sense and thus can't really say if these were miraculous cures or if Jesus happened to come along at the right time when the conditions were going to improve anyway.

Finally, the disciples were supposed to be able to heal people too and Acts records some of their activity. Where has this power gone today? The claimed successor to Peter sits in his ivory tower (the Vatican) presumably with the power to heal given to Peter yet what does he do with it? Nothing at all which suggests that either he is scared it won't work or he knows it won't work, negating this healing thing altogether. Well its either that or the pope doesn't want to heal people - something I would not be surprised at with Ratzinger but I would be shocked by if the present incumbent didn't want to heal people.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline SkyWriting

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
  • Darwins +9/-75
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #32 on: July 01, 2013, 01:32:24 PM »
It is the creationist-believing religious groups who are holding back scientific progress all over the world.

I can't fathom what you mean.  Most scientists believe in God.  Most doctors believe in miracles.
What evidence do you have that science is hindered by these people?

NGFM was talking about creationists.  Most scientists and doctors are not creationists.

What evidence do you have that science is currently hindered ? (other than potential benefits from open season on very young babies)

Offline pianodwarf

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4366
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #33 on: July 01, 2013, 01:47:24 PM »
What evidence do you have that science is currently hindered ?

Creationists are fighting very hard, on quite a few fronts, to push their doctrine to the detriment of scientific principles.  Probably the most obvious one is their dogged determination to have creationism taught in science classes in public schools (despite the fact that creationism is a religious concept and not a scientific one).  Evolution is a theory so thoroughly and strongly vetted in so many ways that it should be common knowledge, not the least bit controversial.  However, a significant percentage of the population rejects evolution because of the misinformation that creationists work so hard to spread and the (sometimes deliberately) faulty reasoning that creationists use.
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline jdawg70

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2102
  • Darwins +375/-8
  • Ex-rosary squad
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #34 on: July 01, 2013, 01:47:51 PM »
What evidence do you have that science is currently hindered ? (other than potential benefits from open season on very young babies)
*Golf clap*
Congratulations!  You just managed to submit yourself as evidence!
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

- Eddie Izzard

http://deepaksducttape.wordpress.com/

Offline SkyWriting

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
  • Darwins +9/-75
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #35 on: July 01, 2013, 01:51:06 PM »
I can't fathom what you mean. Most scientists believe in God.  Most doctors believe in miracles. What evidence do you have that science is hindered by these people?

Oh my goodness!  That is just not true.  You may want to believe it is.  But your faith does not make it true. <snip>
But please don't make sweeping blanket statements that are so blatantly not true.
It really only damages your already tenuous credibility.

Thank you for your concern over my reputation.  That's quite kind.

"Perhaps the most surprising result of the survey is that a majority of doctors (55%) said that they have seen treatment results in their patients that they would consider miraculous (45% do not). Most physicians pray for their patients as a group (51%). Even more, 59% pray for individual patients. 

Editors/Reporters: For more information on the poll, or to speak with Dr. Mittleman or Glenn Kessler, please contact Sherry Kirschenbaum in the Department of Communications at (212) 678-8953; or email shkirschenbaum@jtsa.edu."

"In separate work at the University of Chicago, released in June, 76 percent of doctors said they believed in God and 59 percent believe in some sort of afterlife."  http://www.livescience.com/379-scientists-belief-god-varies-starkly-discipline.html

Offline SkyWriting

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
  • Darwins +9/-75
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #36 on: July 01, 2013, 01:54:36 PM »
What evidence do you have that science is currently hindered ? (other than potential benefits from open season on very young babies)
*Golf clap*
Congratulations!  You just managed to submit yourself as evidence!

I would assume one meant a proven hindrance, rather than a potential problem in a tiny area.

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6705
  • Darwins +892/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #37 on: July 01, 2013, 03:11:07 PM »
What medical professionals believe in terms of miracles or god is not the point. What do they do? Behavior tells more than belief-- which is why most religious people go to doctors when they are sick instead of the local faith healer. Do medical professionals use god or miracles to heal people or do they use medical science? Do they themselves rely on prayer or faith when they are sick?

What is the track record of prayer and faith vs medical science (with or without prayer and faith)? You already know the answer. If "miracles" trumped medicine, countries where people depended more on supernatural beings and miracles would have far better health outcomes than the countries where people rely more on secular medical science. Japan, France, Canada and Sweden should have people dropping like flies, and Haiti, Afghanistan, Iraq and India should have the longest lived and healthiest people in the world.

Of course it is just the opposite. And when religious people have access to medical science they are quick to abandon prayer alone and grab onto secular medicine. With uniformly better results. Prayer has been a constant or even declining factor. In the past 50 years, with the spread of public health measures based on science, infant mortality rates have dropped, life expectancy has risen and many deadly infectious diseases have been eliminated. Don't believe me? Just look at the stats. Go to census.gov or nationmaster.

If religious faith worked, we would not need science. Why do religious people insist on believing sh!t that is blatantly untrue?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12340
  • Darwins +677/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #38 on: July 01, 2013, 03:39:33 PM »
What evidence do you have that science is currently hindered ?

Quote
About 46 percent of people say creationism explains the origin of humans. Just 15 percent say humans evolved without the assistance of God,

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2154923/Half-Americans-believe-creationism-just-15-percent-accept-evolution.html

Quote
What’s most remarkable about these numbers is their stability: these percentages have remained virtually unchanged since Gallup began asking the question, thirty years ago.

http://www.newyorker.com/online/blogs/frontal-cortex/2012/06/brain-experiments-why-we-dont-believe-science.html

It is a fact.  Religion enstupidates people and keeps them that way. 
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline stuffin

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 734
  • Darwins +26/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #39 on: July 01, 2013, 09:06:32 PM »

Healing of the Spirit is priceless.   Even one person who believes spends eternity with God.

Eternity times one = a very large number.

We are blessed that more than one can get to heaven.
Spiritual healing is a bogus methodology charlatans use to bilk the vulnerable. So when you say "priceless" you really mean "expensive."

Quote
Early reviews of the scientific literature on energy healing were equivocal and recommended further research,[9][10] but more recent reviews have concluded that there is no evidence supporting clinical efficacy.[11][12][13][14][15][16] The theoretical basis of healing has been criticised,[17][18][19][20] research and reviews supportive of energy medicine have been criticised for containing methodological flaws and selection bias[21][22] and positive therapeutic results have been dismissed as the result of known psychological mechanisms.[21][22]

Edzard Ernst, lately Professor of Complementary and Alternative Medicine at the University of Exeter, has warned that "healing continues to be promoted despite the absence of biological plausibility or convincing clinical evidence ... that these methods work therapeutically and plenty to demonstrate that they do not."[13] Some claims of those purveying "energy medicine" devices are known to be fraudulent[23] and their marketing practices have drawn law-enforcement action in the U.S.[23]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_medicine



Spiritual healing is an exploited avenue for emotional healing.

There is only physical and emotional healing, no such thing as spiritual healing.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 10:18:03 PM by stuffin »
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3014
  • Darwins +265/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #40 on: July 01, 2013, 10:15:05 PM »
The problem with creationism being admitted into science courses as an alternative to evolutionary theory is that it makes no testable predictions and has no applications in the real world.  It's a waste of precious classroom time, particularly for students who want to pursue careers in biology, biochemistry, genetics research and/or medicine.
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline stuffin

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 734
  • Darwins +26/-0
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #41 on: July 01, 2013, 10:31:20 PM »
The problem with creationism being admitted into science courses as an alternative to evolutionary theory is that it makes no testable predictions and has no applications in the real world.  It's a waste of precious classroom time, particularly for students who want to pursue careers in biology, biochemistry, genetics research and/or medicine.

The universe is an immense wonderful place created by a super intelligence (god) who is so complicated we can never understand anything he/she/it embodies, so just sit back, don't question and be astounded, class over.
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #42 on: July 02, 2013, 02:20:55 AM »
"Perhaps the most surprising result of the survey is that a majority of doctors (55%) said that they have seen treatment results in their patients that they would consider miraculous (45% do not). Most physicians pray for their patients as a group (51%). Even more, 59% pray for individual patients. 

Sorry, where did that quote come from?  Source please, so that we can check the methodology and questions used.  You quoted from somewhere, so where did you quote from?

"In separate work at the University of Chicago, released in June, 76 percent of doctors said they believed in God and 59 percent believe in some sort of afterlife."  http://www.livescience.com/379-scientists-belief-god-varies-starkly-discipline.html
I followed THIS link.  And I found an article that made that claim, but again - no sign of the report it came from, no methodology, no listing of the questions asked.

Quoting someone who doesn't give his source is hardly the best way to make a good case.  Especially when the (best?) article you can find is almost a decade old.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #43 on: July 02, 2013, 02:34:09 AM »
"Perhaps the most surprising result of the survey is that a majority of doctors (55%) said that they have seen treatment results in their patients that they would consider miraculous (45% do not). Most physicians pray for their patients as a group (51%). Even more, 59% pray for individual patients. 

Editors/Reporters: For more information on the poll, or to speak with Dr. Mittleman or Glenn Kessler, please contact Sherry Kirschenbaum in the Department of Communications at (212) 678-8953; or email shkirschenbaum@jtsa.edu."

Now here's a funny thing.

Much googling has produced several summaries and commentaries on the work.  But the actual poll itself, and the detailed results, are no longer available.  Interesting.

But perhaps more interesting, when you did down, is that it appears that ALL the doctors surveyed were already identified as being religious.  In other words, it seems that NO atheist doctors were asked the questions.

"Those surveyed represent physicians from Christian (Roman Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox Christian and other), Jewish (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and secular) Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist religious traditions."
http://www.hcdi.net/News/PressRelease.cfm?ID=47

So what you are ACTUALLY saying, is that ONLY just over half of doctors who identified as religious, thought that miracles happened, or bothered to pray for their patients.  Frankly, that's a terrible indictment of miracles and the perceived power of prayer, if almost HALF of the religious doctors surveyed thought there was any point in praying for their patients. 
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4935
  • Darwins +563/-17
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #44 on: July 02, 2013, 09:59:15 AM »
Creationists are fighting very hard, on quite a few fronts, to push their doctrine to the detriment of scientific principles.  Probably the most obvious one is their dogged determination to have creationism taught in science classes in public schools (despite the fact that creationism is a religious concept and not a scientific one).  Evolution is a theory so thoroughly and strongly vetted in so many ways that it should be common knowledge, not the least bit controversial.  However, a significant percentage of the population rejects evolution because of the misinformation that creationists work so hard to spread and the (sometimes deliberately) faulty reasoning that creationists use.
The problem, I think, is twofold.  The first is what you said; second, evolution is only that thoroughly vetted amongst biologists who have actually studied the subject.  Most of the evidence is difficult for laymen to grasp (intellectually or intuitively), whereas counter-evolution examples (despite being fallacious) tend to be much easier to understand.

It's the same problem with probability science.  Even though people who study probability understand it pretty well, it is not an easy science for a layman to grasp.  So you continue to get people who intuitively think that having strings of five or more flips is wildly improbable, when in fact there's something like a 3% chance of it happening - and that's a fairly straightforward problem.

Online wheels5894

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2525
  • Darwins +110/-1
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #45 on: July 02, 2013, 10:06:13 AM »
Yes, this understanding science can be hard for people. People often are poor at understanding the probability of risk so that parents will refuse to allow their children to take part in a very safe activity if someone has been injured doing it but are happy to let their children cross busy road on their own! getting the idea of probability to adults seems very hard work though our weather forecast in the UK often cite the chance of rain as a percentage.

As far as evolution is concerned I don't think the principles and quite a lot of the evidence is past the understanding of those at school, given a good teacher, but adults who were never taught it find it much harder, especially when they are part of a religion which tries to deny it in favour of creationism. This really is where religion gets in the way of learning.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline SkyWriting

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
  • Darwins +9/-75
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #46 on: July 02, 2013, 01:50:11 PM »
What medical professionals believe in terms of miracles or god is not the point. What do they do? Behavior tells more than belief-- which is why most religious people go to doctors when they are sick instead of the local faith healer. Do medical professionals use god or miracles to heal people or do they use medical science? Do they themselves rely on prayer or faith when they are sick?

What is the track record of prayer and faith vs medical science (with or without prayer and faith)? You already know the answer. If "miracles" trumped medicine, countries where people depended more on supernatural beings and miracles would have far better health outcomes than the countries where people rely more on secular medical science. Japan, France, Canada and Sweden should have people dropping like flies, and Haiti, Afghanistan, Iraq and India should have the longest lived and healthiest people in the world.

Of course it is just the opposite. And when religious people have access to medical science they are quick to abandon prayer alone and grab onto secular medicine. With uniformly better results. Prayer has been a constant or even declining factor. In the past 50 years, with the spread of public health measures based on science, infant mortality rates have dropped, life expectancy has risen and many deadly infectious diseases have been eliminated. Don't believe me? Just look at the stats. Go to census.gov or nationmaster.

If religious faith worked, we would not need science. Why do religious people insist on believing sh!t that is blatantly untrue?

The obvious answer is that nobody does. 
Only the insane continue to  believe
in things that aren't true.

Offline SkyWriting

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
  • Darwins +9/-75
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #47 on: July 02, 2013, 02:00:50 PM »
"Perhaps the most surprising result of the survey is that a majority of doctors (55%) said that they have seen treatment results in their patients that they would consider miraculous (45% do not). Most physicians pray for their patients as a group (51%). Even more, 59% pray for individual patients. 

Editors/Reporters: For more information on the poll, or to speak with Dr. Mittleman or Glenn Kessler, please contact Sherry Kirschenbaum in the Department of Communications at (212) 678-8953; or email shkirschenbaum@jtsa.edu."

Now here's a funny thing.

Much googling has produced several summaries and commentaries on the work.  But the actual poll itself, and the detailed results, are no longer available.  Interesting.

But perhaps more interesting, when you did down, is that it appears that ALL the doctors surveyed were already identified as being religious.  In other words, it seems that NO atheist doctors were asked the questions.

"Those surveyed represent physicians from Christian (Roman Catholic, Protestant, Orthodox Christian and other), Jewish (Orthodox, Conservative, Reform and secular) Muslim, Hindu and Buddhist religious traditions."
http://www.hcdi.net/News/PressRelease.cfm?ID=47

So what you are ACTUALLY saying, is that ONLY just over half of doctors who identified as religious, thought that miracles happened, or bothered to pray for their patients.  Frankly, that's a terrible indictment of miracles and the perceived power of prayer, if almost HALF of the religious doctors surveyed thought there was any point in praying for their patients.

There are lies
There are Damn Lies
And there is Statistics.


I put no stock in majority opinion of anything, and less in polls.
I'm simply supporting my statement.

There are additional polls if my point was opposite my statement.
You could ask people one on one in a building funded by a religious
group and you's get different answers from the same people in
a government building, just because "the separation of church and
state" is a background thought in their minds.   


Offline SkyWriting

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
  • Darwins +9/-75
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #48 on: July 02, 2013, 02:03:48 PM »
Yes, this understanding science can be hard for people. People often are poor at understanding the probability of risk so that parents will refuse to allow their children to take part in a very safe activity if someone has been injured doing it but are happy to let their children cross busy road on their own! getting the idea of probability to adults seems very hard work though our weather forecast in the UK often cite the chance of rain as a percentage.

As far as evolution is concerned I don't think the principles and quite a lot of the evidence is past the understanding of those at school, given a good teacher, but adults who were never taught it find it much harder, especially when they are part of a religion which tries to deny it in favour of creationism. This really is where religion gets in the way of learning.

Everyone would get along fine if science would just admit it can't invent history and call it science.

Offline wright

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1863
  • Darwins +79/-1
  • Gender: Male
  • "Sleep like a log, snore like a chainsaw."
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #49 on: July 02, 2013, 02:11:43 PM »
Everyone would get along fine if science would just admit it can't invent history and call it science.

Could you provide an example of that?
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius

Offline Astreja

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3014
  • Darwins +265/-3
  • Gender: Female
  • Agnostic goddess with Clue-by-Four™
    • The Springy Goddess
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #50 on: July 02, 2013, 02:15:41 PM »
You could ask people one on one in a building funded by a religious group and you's get different answers from the same people in a government building, just because "the separation of church and
state" is a background thought in their minds. 

And those studies would be just as flawed as the study that queried only religious doctors.  If you want accuracy in a survey, you have to take a truly representative cross-section of whatever population you want to examine.  If the study wanted to discover how religious doctors' beliefs impacted their work, then it succeeded.  It is, however, not representative of medicine as a whole.
Reality Checkroom — Not Responsible for Lost Articles

Offline nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6705
  • Darwins +892/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #51 on: July 02, 2013, 05:27:00 PM »
SW, why did you quote information from an article if you do not believe the conclusions of the article? It should matter to you that the things you say are factual and correct.

And you did not explain why religious people continue to believe in things that are factually untrue. There are many people who believe (or at least say they believe) that religion or prayer heals illness --but the same people go to doctors and use medical science whenever it is available and get much better results than when they just used religion.

(I did not ask if you thought religious people were sane or insane. That is a separate issue.)

You also said that science invents history and calls it science. What does that mean? 
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #52 on: July 03, 2013, 07:28:10 AM »
"Perhaps the most surprising result of the survey is that a majority of doctors (55%) said that they have seen treatment results in their patients that they would consider miraculous (45% do not). Most physicians pray for their patients as a group (51%). Even more, 59% pray for individual patients. 
So what you are ACTUALLY saying, is that ONLY just over half of doctors who identified as religious, thought that miracles happened, or bothered to pray for their patients.  Frankly, that's a terrible indictment of miracles and the perceived power of prayer, if almost HALF of the religious doctors surveyed thought there was any point in praying for their patients.

There are lies
There are Damn Lies
And there is Statistics.

I put no stock in majority opinion of anything, and less in polls.
I'm simply supporting my statement.

There are additional polls if my point was opposite my statement.
You could ask people one on one in a building funded by a religious
group and you's get different answers from the same people in
a government building, just because "the separation of church and
state" is a background thought in their minds.   

So what are you saying?  You found some numbers that appeared to support your position, and used them without bothering to check if they really did?  At best, that's lazy.  At worst, it's dishonest.

What is even more dishonest is that - now you've been called on it - your response is not "gosh, the data I was using is flawed, I'll re-think my position", but rather "well, there's other data out there, I'm sure".

The data YOU brought to the table says the opposite of the position you claimed.  Are you going to produce data that DOES support your position?  Are you going to change your position, admit you were wrong?

Or are you going to continue to side with a position that even the data you picked says is incorrect, because you "feel" it must be true?

How intellectually honest are you, Skywriting?  This is your big chance to prove it.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline SkyWriting

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
  • Darwins +9/-75
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #53 on: July 03, 2013, 08:37:00 AM »
Everyone would get along fine if science would just admit it can't invent history and call it science.

Could you provide an example of that?

A person told be I was denying Scientific History.  I responded that there is no such phrase in use.
Scientific History is an oxymoron but society has been brain-washed into believing that fantasies
about the past are scientific because the fantasy is based on a scientific observation.

Having read every science fiction book in the Jr high library and in my high school, I immediately
recognized the style and format of science fantasy regarding earths past.  There is little to set the
two apart.    Any commentary on the past presented in a historical context is science fantasy. 



Offline SkyWriting

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
  • Darwins +9/-75
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #54 on: July 03, 2013, 08:43:52 AM »
"Perhaps the most surprising result of the survey is that a majority of doctors (55%) said that they have seen treatment results in their patients that they would consider miraculous (45% do not). Most physicians pray for their patients as a group (51%). Even more, 59% pray for individual patients. 
So what you are ACTUALLY saying, is that ONLY just over half of doctors who identified as religious, thought that miracles happened, or bothered to pray for their patients.  Frankly, that's a terrible indictment of miracles and the perceived power of prayer, if almost HALF of the religious doctors surveyed thought there was any point in praying for their patients.

There are lies
There are Damn Lies
And there is Statistics.

I put no stock in majority opinion of anything, and less in polls.
I'm simply supporting my statement.

There are additional polls if my point was opposite my statement.
You could ask people one on one in a building funded by a religious
group and you's get different answers from the same people in
a government building, just because "the separation of church and
state" is a background thought in their minds.   

So what are you saying?  You found some numbers that appeared to support your position, and used them without bothering to check if they really did?  At best, that's lazy.  At worst, it's dishonest.

What is even more dishonest is that - now you've been called on it - your response is not "gosh, the data I was using is flawed, I'll re-think my position", but rather "well, there's other data out there, I'm sure".

The data YOU brought to the table says the opposite of the position you claimed.  Are you going to produce data that DOES support your position?  Are you going to change your position, admit you were wrong?

Or are you going to continue to side with a position that even the data you picked says is incorrect, because you "feel" it must be true?

How intellectually honest are you, Skywriting?  This is your big chance to prove it.

I don't know of any honest polling techniques.  They all carry bias.

Offline SkyWriting

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
  • Darwins +9/-75
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #55 on: July 03, 2013, 08:51:22 AM »
SW, why did you quote information from an article if you do not believe the conclusions of the article? It should matter to you that the things you say are factual and correct.

And you did not explain why religious people continue to believe in things that are factually untrue.

There are no people who believe in things that are factually untrue.  From their own perspective.
You are no different.   You may think the driver in the opposite lane is sober and watching the road
and will not cross the yellow line and kill you dead.  You might drive without a sea belt and believe
you are safe.  You might have three beers and believe you are sober enough to drive.
People will believe what they want to believe no matter the facts. All people.

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #56 on: July 03, 2013, 08:52:54 AM »
How intellectually honest are you, Skywriting?  This is your big chance to prove it.

I don't know of any honest polling techniques.  They all carry bias.

So "not very", then.  Not prepared to admit you have no studies that support your view.  Not prepared to admit that the view you supported could be wrong.  Fair enough.  At least I know how much weight I should give to any future claims you make.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline SkyWriting

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
  • Darwins +9/-75
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #57 on: July 03, 2013, 08:55:31 AM »
You could ask people one on one in a building funded by a religious group and you's get different answers from the same people in a government building, just because "the separation of church and
state" is a background thought in their minds. 

And those studies would be just as flawed as the study that queried only religious doctors.  If you want accuracy in a survey, you have to take a truly representative cross-section of whatever population you want to examine.  If the study wanted to discover how religious doctors' beliefs impacted their work, then it succeeded.  It is, however, not representative of medicine as a whole.

And you should tally up the results of multiple polls and studies if you need an accurate assessment.   
Because opinion polls have no effect on the truth, I pay little attention to polls.