Author Topic: Bible healings don't count  (Read 3891 times)

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Offline nogodsforme

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Bible healings don't count
« on: June 28, 2013, 02:49:44 PM »
I was listening to a report on new research into cancer. They talked about patients who were treated and all the cancer was gone, but then several months later on, the same exact cancer came back and killed them. Medical science considers this a failure because the patients died of the disease. The researchers are trying to find out why the cancer comes back sometimes and how to prevent that from happening.

Now, if those patients had been "treated" by faith and got better, the religious would celebrate the few extra months of life the person got, even though they eventually died of the disease. The faith healers would cite the cancer temporarily disappearing as a cure. No need to figure out why the cancer came back-- that was just god's will.

That led me to thinking about the cures in the bible: healing lepers, the blind, the lame, raising the dead. One that I remember vividly is the healing of a woman who had a menstrual flow that would not stop, by just touching the garment of Jesus. Christians like to cite these miraculous events as evidence of god's power to heal.

Here is why those healings, even if they could be documented as taking place, and even if the cures "stuck", don't count. Jesus could not explain why the woman had the non-stop menstrual flow. He therefore could not tell other people how to help women with the same problem. Jesus could not explain the causes of leprosy or blindness. He therefore could not tell people how to treat or prevent those conditions in the future. Jesus healing one person is a publicity stunt, not a medical miracle.

A medical doctor who cured one cancer patient, and did not know how or why they got better, would not be able to use their knowledge cure anyone else. The healing would be a one-off, like a coupon you can only use once. A one-off healing is no good for society as a whole. You need a systematic way to heal everyone with similar conditions, and that requires the scientific method.

That is why the bible healings don't count. It wasn't until the 20th century that we could treat everyone with leprosy using modern medicine, not just those few who happened to meet Jesus personally, or who had enough faith or who prayed the right way. Leprosy cured, no gods needed.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 02:51:49 PM by nogodsforme »
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #1 on: June 29, 2013, 08:08:13 AM »
I was listening to a report on new research into cancer. They talked about patients who were treated and all the cancer was gone, but then several months later on, the same exact cancer came back and killed them. Medical science considers this a failure because the patients died of the disease. The researchers are trying to find out why the cancer comes back sometimes and how to prevent that from happening.Now, if those patients had been "treated" by faith and got better, the religious would celebrate the few extra months of life the person got, even though they eventually died of the disease. The faith healers would cite the cancer temporarily disappearing as a cure. No need to figure out why the cancer came back-- that was just god's will.That led me to thinking about the cures in the bible: healing lepers, the blind, the lame, raising the dead. One that I remember vividly is the healing of a woman who had a menstrual flow that would not stop, by just touching the garment of Jesus. Christians like to cite these miraculous events as evidence of god's power to heal.Here is why those healings, even if they could be documented as taking place, and even if the cures "stuck", don't count. Jesus could not explain why the woman had the non-stop menstrual flow. He therefore could not tell other people how to help women with the same problem. Jesus could not explain the causes of leprosy or blindness. He therefore could not tell people how to treat or prevent those conditions in the future. Jesus healing one person is a publicity stunt, not a medical miracle.A medical doctor who cured one cancer patient, and did not know how or why they got better, would not be able to use their knowledge cure anyone else. The healing would be a one-off, like a coupon you can only use once. A one-off healing is no good for society as a whole. You need a systematic way to heal everyone with similar conditions, and that requires the scientific method.That is why the bible healings don't count. It wasn't until the 20th century that we could treat everyone with leprosy using modern medicine, not just those few who happened to meet Jesus personally, or who had enough faith or who prayed the right way. Leprosy cured, no gods needed.

Near as I can tell, all the healings were the physical result of a spiritual healing.   God healed their mind or spirit, and the body did what it could as a result.   These were far and away WEIRD events for the people of the time, and considered miracles.  And they were.  People were not being spiritually healed much.  Just being near Jesus could do the job for some.  Some didn't believe they were seeing God.  So no results for them. 

Jesus said for those with faith, mountains will move.  Likely he was referring to the new earth, mentioned in other passages.


Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #2 on: June 29, 2013, 07:47:19 PM »
^^^That is not what the bible says. You are making stuff up.

People did not come to Jesus and say, hey, heal my spirit and then maybe my blindness or leprosy will magically go away. People said, Jesus, heal my blindness, heal my leprosy, and he did. And then some believed and some still did not.

But, as usual, Sky, you are missing the point. Weird, one-off events in the bible do not help humanity, even if they really did happen. We don't know how the healings were done. If you say they were done by faith, what does that even mean? What exactly is the proper attitude, level of faith, type of prayer to heal the blind or cure leprosy? The bible does not say, and nobody knows. The stories of healings are therefore useless.

If Jesus could heal the blind, why not heal all the blind, and tell everyone how to do it? What is the use of healing just the blind who believed the right religious stuff? That kind of "healing" is useless.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline stuffin

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #3 on: June 29, 2013, 10:48:46 PM »
Near as I can tell, all the healings were the physical result of a spiritual healing.   God healed their mind or spirit, and the body did what it could as a result.   These were far and away WEIRD events for the people of the time, and considered miracles.  And they were.  People were not being spiritually healed much.  Just being near Jesus could do the job for some.  Some didn't believe they were seeing God.  So no results for them. 

Jesus said for those with faith, mountains will move.  Likely he was referring to the new earth, mentioned in other passages.

Why are the healing so few and far between?

When science invents a vaccine, it works on everybody, not just the ones who believe it will work.
When you do things right, people won't be sure you've done anything at all.

Offline neopagan

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #4 on: June 30, 2013, 08:09:53 AM »
it was said these healings were done so that others might have faith.  What a weird way to elicit faith - miraculous , nonrepeating events that happened thousands of years ago to a select few. That is the definition of creating skepticism to me.  Now our miracles are found car keys... prazebetojeezus!
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Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #5 on: June 30, 2013, 08:30:00 AM »
Near as I can tell, all the healings were the physical result of a spiritual healing.   God healed their mind or spirit, and the body did what it could as a result.   These were far and away WEIRD events for the people of the time, and considered miracles.  And they were.  People were not being spiritually healed much.  Just being near Jesus could do the job for some.  Some didn't believe they were seeing God.  So no results for them. 

Jesus said for those with faith, mountains will move.  Likely he was referring to the new earth, mentioned in other passages.
Why are the healing so few and far between? When science invents a vaccine, it works on everybody, not just the ones who believe it will work.

Science is fixing that problem and finding cures for just one person.
And
cures do not work as well on those who don't believe.   
Check out Cancer Centers of America and why their approach works better.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #6 on: June 30, 2013, 08:33:15 AM »
^^^That is not what the bible says. You are making stuff up.

People did not come to Jesus and say, hey, heal my spirit and then maybe my blindness or leprosy will magically go away. People said, Jesus, heal my blindness, heal my leprosy, and he did. And then some believed and some still did not.

But, as usual, Sky, you are missing the point. Weird, one-off events in the bible do not help humanity, even if they really did happen. We don't know how the healings were done. If you say they were done by faith, what does that even mean? What exactly is the proper attitude, level of faith, type of prayer to heal the blind or cure leprosy? The bible does not say, and nobody knows. The stories of healings are therefore useless.

If Jesus could heal the blind, why not heal all the blind, and tell everyone how to do it? What is the use of healing just the blind who believed the right religious stuff? That kind of "healing" is useless.

Healing of the Spirit is priceless.   Even one person who believes spends eternity with God.

Eternity times one = a very large number.

We are blessed that more than one can get to heaven.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #7 on: June 30, 2013, 10:04:37 AM »
Science is fixing that problem and finding cures for just one person.
Correction.  Scientists are discovering how to tailor a cure to the individual to make it more effective.  That is not "finding cures for just one person".

Quote from: SkyWriting
And cures do not work as well on those who don't believe.
I can only assume you're talking about the placebo effect here.  It is not a matter of faith, nor is it particularly strong.  People don't magically recover from most illnesses by being given fake medicines, and they don't magically recover simply because they believe they will.  For that matter, they don't magically make cures ineffective by not believing in them.  What happens is that they're instinctively marshaling the body's resources, whether they realize it or not, and thus increasing (or decreasing, I suppose) the effectiveness of medicines and such.

Quote from: SkyWriting
Check out Cancer Centers of America and why their approach works better.
Perhaps you should elaborate on why their approach is different in the first place.

MODERATOR EDIT: Fixed quoting "boo-boo" per author's request.
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 05:53:16 AM by pianodwarf »

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #8 on: June 30, 2013, 02:15:45 PM »
Near as I can tell, all the healings were the physical result of a spiritual healing.   God healed their mind or spirit, and the body did what it could as a result.   These were far and away WEIRD events for the people of the time, and considered miracles.  And they were.  People were not being spiritually healed much.  Just being near Jesus could do the job for some.  Some didn't believe they were seeing God.  So no results for them. 

Jesus said for those with faith, mountains will move.  Likely he was referring to the new earth, mentioned in other passages.
Why are the healing so few and far between? When science invents a vaccine, it works on everybody, not just the ones who believe it will work.

Science is fixing that problem and finding cures for just one person.
And
cures do not work as well on those who don't believe.   
Check out Cancer Centers of America and why their approach works better.

(my bolding)

WTF are you talking about? I guess there is no point in treating unconscious people, babies or people in comas for any disease or health problem, then. And veterinary science may as well pack up and disappear. Unless you think that animals have "belief" in vaccinations against rabies and, that is what prevents the disease....

People (and animals) are treated all the time by medical science, and lots of times they have no clue how the treatment actually works. People in bad accidents may not even know they are being treated at all. People may or may not "believe" in medicine.  But the treatment still works more often than not.

In centuries past, what today are considered medical mistakes-- death or injury due to misdiagnosis, wrong treatment, infection or botched surgeries-- were just the normal outcomes of treatment.

Before the 20th century, when you went to the hospital, you generally died because we did not yet understand basic stuff about germs and infections and the need for sterile conditions. There was no safe anesthesia, or way to combat blood loss, so surgery meant likely death from pain and shock. So nobody went to the hospital unless they were desperate and close to death anyway, so it was a self-fulfilling prophecy.

Women used to routinely die in childbirth and every family expected to lose a child or two to illness. Go look in old cemetaries at the birth and death years of the children buried there. Nowadays that only happens in poor regions where there is no basic sanitation or modern medical care, like vaccinations.

I have seen babies suffer and die of preventable conditions, and I have comforted the devastated mothers--who prayed to god with all their hearts to save the child. God did nothing, and medical care would have helped. So, eff you for saying health care does not matter! How dare you! >:(

Surgery has become so successful and routine nowadays, that when things go wrong it is considered a big deal. Millions of people are alive today and/or able to function because medical science works so well.

I sincerely hope you don't have anything to do with the health field. :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #9 on: June 30, 2013, 03:51:03 PM »
Spiritual healings are a placebo effect, Sky Writing suggests medical healing is also a placebo, well, frankly it's blatant ignorance. Religious folks seem to have a habit of trying to equate real science to their faith, as though it can be dismissed as a belief system, but suggesting it of medical science is a dangerous things and people who think that way either die or get somebody they love killed. Science is very real, without it I would not be able to type this message and you would not be able to read it. Without it a handful of members here would very likely be dead of have not existed in the first place, but so many are ignorant to how it works or to the extent it affects our lives, but it works. The same could not be said about 'belief'. Belief either create the the illusion it works or works as a placebo and placebos can work to a degree, even change a person's life. Darren Brown did an interesting experiment with placebos.
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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #10 on: June 30, 2013, 04:04:45 PM »
Check out Cancer Centers of America and why their approach works better.
From Cancer Centers of America: http://ww2.cancercenter.com/treatments/genomic-tumor-assessment/

Quote
Genomic tumor assessment reveals the DNA alterations that are driving the growth of a cancer. As we understand more about these gene mutations, we are better able to provide cancer treatment therapies that specifically target changes in the tumor's genomic profile. Your oncologist will help determine if you are a good candidate for genomic testing.

Science, and the acceptance of evolution, seems to be a promising method. Praying is a complete waste of time - why would God change the entire universe just for you, who admit that you are unworthy of His Love?
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #11 on: June 30, 2013, 04:43:56 PM »
Check out Cancer Centers of America and why their approach works better.
From Cancer Centers of America: http://ww2.cancercenter.com/treatments/genomic-tumor-assessment/

Quote
Genomic tumor assessment reveals the DNA alterations that are driving the growth of a cancer. As we understand more about these gene mutations, we are better able to provide cancer treatment therapies that specifically target changes in the tumor's genomic profile. Your oncologist will help determine if you are a good candidate for genomic testing.

Science, and the acceptance of evolution, seems to be a promising method. Praying is a complete waste of time - why would God change the entire universe just for you, who admit that you are unworthy of His Love?

I have no problem with Science.  Bible believing Creationists created the foundations for modern science.  Muslims built our groundwork for science even before that.  I have no problem with the use of evolutionary theory nor have I said I am unworthy of his love.
 That's 0 for 3 on the accusations tally for this post.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 04:49:01 PM by SkyWriting »

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #12 on: June 30, 2013, 04:57:06 PM »
Spiritual healings are a placebo effect, Sky Writing suggests medical healing is also a placebo, well, frankly it's blatant ignorance. Religious folks seem to have a habit of trying to equate real science to their faith, as though it can be dismissed as a belief system, but suggesting it of medical science is a dangerous things and people who think that way either die or get somebody they love killed. Science is very real, without it I would not be able to type this message and you would not be able to read it. Without it a handful of members here would very likely be dead of have not existed in the first place, but so many are ignorant to how it works or to the extent it affects our lives, but it works. The same could not be said about 'belief'. Belief either create the the illusion it works or works as a placebo and placebos can work to a degree, even change a person's life. Darren Brown did an interesting experiment with placebos.

The placebo effect is real and measurable.  Modern science has thoroughly embraced the benefits of environment, attitude, and mental well being and it's help in the healing process.

We call it "the placebo effect" when we are evaluating a particular solutions effectiveness.  But only to separate it's effect from the results, precisely because the effect is real.

I refer to most of the healings in scripture as Spiritual Healings.  It as as rare today as it was then, and the results are often considered miracles.

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #13 on: June 30, 2013, 05:25:25 PM »
Yes, Placebos work as I've suggested and people had used them, this is because the human mind can be tricked, the placebo effect can lead people into doing things they thought they couldn't do, it can trick people into believing themselves or to trick them into behaviours or habits to benefit them.

However, if misused it can do more harm than good. Also, medical science itself doesn't base itself on placebos, it is based on something much more concrete.

A placebo is essentially just a early of filling somebody, sometimes it can work to their benefit, but the effects of a placebo can be acquire elsewhere, as really it's purely psychological.
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 05:29:27 PM by Seppuku »
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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #14 on: June 30, 2013, 05:44:09 PM »
I have no problem with Science.

Yes you do! You say science works better for those who believe. How do you account for  that?  With science?

Quote
Bible believing Creationists created the foundations for modern science.
No, they held it back for 1000 years. Their witchburning and persecution of those whose ideas contradicted God’s ideas show this.

Quote
Muslims built our groundwork for science even before that.

And their science died when the fundamentalist Caliphate arose around 1,100 AD.

Quote
I have no problem with the use of evolutionary theory

At least there is some hope for you. Clearly you too regard Genesis as a fairy tale.

Quote
nor have I said I am unworthy of his love.

Well you should do.

1Jo:2:16: For all that is in the world, the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life, is not of the Father, but is of the world.

Or perhaps you think you are so perfect you will go straight to heaven without being judged? Perhaps you really have never, ever done anything other than that which God wished?

Quote
That's 0 for 3 on the accusations tally for this post.

That was the half-time score: I win the match 6-3.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #15 on: June 30, 2013, 06:42:05 PM »
Even if religious people did establish the basics of science, that is no great feat. Nearly everyone had to be religious, or at least had to claim to be, 1000 years ago. And the churches, caliphs, popes, religious leaders, and so on controlled what research could be done and whether a scientist got paid or banished or executed for heresy. So it is not surprising that most early scientists were religious. They were religious, or they were dead. Some were both.

Fast forward to today. Where is the majority of cutting edge scientific work being done? Where do people go to become world class scientists? Religious institutions, theology schools, bible colleges and the like? Or government-funded facilities, secular universities and private businesses?

Who is busy protesting immunization, stem cell research and reproductive health programs? Who is trying to get religion taught to children as if it was science? Who decided that Noah's Ark was real, and that Jesus rode a dinosaur? Who has declared Darwin--who once planned to become a minister-- to be the enemy of all that is good and true because his ideas hold up far better than those of their religions?

It is the creationist-believing religious groups who are holding back scientific progress all over the world. Not atheists.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline stuffin

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #16 on: June 30, 2013, 06:58:57 PM »
Religion was man's first attempt at science. When they couldn't explain something they invented an answer. Basically, we don't know so God did it. Could this have been man's first scientific theory?

 The early religious leaders got stuck with their stories and used coercion to keep science in line with "the beliefs." Eventually science went past religion and now religion is twisting and distorting words, theories, facts and all kinds of shit to keep themselves relevant (in power). IMO of course.
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #17 on: June 30, 2013, 08:34:40 PM »
Healing of the Spirit is priceless.   Even one person who believes spends eternity with God.

I believe that you are tragically mistaken about this, SW.  As I do not believe in "the Spirit," I think that "healing of the Spirit" is a psychological phenomenon rather than a supernatural one.    As I think your god is mythical, I likewise think that spending eternity with such a being is also mythical.

Do you have any evidence for these claims?
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Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #18 on: June 30, 2013, 10:13:29 PM »
Healing of the Spirit is priceless.   Even one person who believes spends eternity with God.

I believe that you are tragically mistaken about this, SW.  As I do not believe in "the Spirit," I think that "healing of the Spirit" is a psychological phenomenon rather than a supernatural one.    As I think your god is mythical, I likewise think that spending eternity with such a being is also mythical. Do you have any evidence for these claims?

  My 23 years of conversation and interactions are all invisible to other observers.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #19 on: June 30, 2013, 10:16:44 PM »
Even if religious people did establish the basics of science, that is no great feat. Nearly everyone had to be religious, or at least had to claim to be, 1000 years ago. And the churches, caliphs, popes, religious leaders, and so on controlled what research could be done and whether a scientist got paid or banished or executed for heresy. So it is not surprising that most early scientists were religious. They were religious, or they were dead. Some were both.

Fast forward to today. Where is the majority of cutting edge scientific work being done? Where do people go to become world class scientists? Religious institutions, theology schools, bible colleges and the like? Or government-funded facilities, secular universities and private businesses?

Who is busy protesting immunization, stem cell research and reproductive health programs? Who is trying to get religion taught to children as if it was science? Who decided that Noah's Ark was real, and that Jesus rode a dinosaur? Who has declared Darwin--who once planned to become a minister-- to be the enemy of all that is good and true because his ideas hold up far better than those of their religions?  It is the creationist-believing religious groups who are holding back scientific progress all over the world. Not atheists.

I can't fathom what you mean.  Most scientists believe in God.  Most doctors believe in miracles.
What evidence do you have that science is hindered by these people?

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #20 on: June 30, 2013, 10:21:21 PM »
At least there is some hope for you. Clearly you too regard Genesis as a fairy tale.

Try not to ASS-ume too much.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #21 on: June 30, 2013, 10:28:54 PM »
  My 23 years of conversation and interactions are all invisible to other observers.

My conversations with my imaginary friends are all invisible to other observers.

How is god any different than my imaginary friends?
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #22 on: June 30, 2013, 10:33:57 PM »
  My 23 years of conversation and interactions are all invisible to other observers.

My conversations with my imaginary friends are all invisible to other observers.
How is god any different than my imaginary friends?

They don't offer you any relief short or long term.

Offline Aaron123

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #23 on: June 30, 2013, 10:56:53 PM »
They don't offer you any relief short or long term.

What is meant by "relief"?

My imaginary friends offers me great joy in my times of need.
Being a Christian, I've made my decision. That decision offers no compromise; therefore, I'm closed to anything else.

Offline Astreja

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #24 on: July 01, 2013, 12:00:14 AM »
My 23 years of conversation and interactions are all invisible to other observers.

This is the problem in a nutshell.  We can't use those 23 years as evidence of anything, other than that you had some experiences that you believe were of a supernatural and divine nature.  We can't read your mind and we can't recreate and examine the situations that triggered your experiences.  You could be communicating with a lot of things:  Your own imagination; the god that you think you're speaking to; a generic nice entity that doesn't care what you call it; a trickster god; a non-divine extraterrestrial.

Until there's a clear-cut protocol for mortal-to-deity communication that works for everyone regardless of what they believe, I don't see us making much progress on this problem.
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #25 on: July 01, 2013, 12:04:49 AM »
Most doctors believe in miracles.

Perhaps in some parts of the United States, but up here in Canada I don't see it.  After typing tens of thousands of medical reports, I've yet to hear even one example of a "medical miracle," or indeed any reference to a god.  Once or twice a patient has lucked out with some unusual herbal concoction, but that's about it.
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Offline William

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #26 on: July 01, 2013, 02:53:01 AM »
Most doctors believe in miracles.

Funny how you don't see written on doctors' prescription notes:

"Dosage: Adults take 2 prayers 3x per day before meals. Children same."
"See your Pastor if symptoms persist."

 ;D   &)
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #27 on: July 01, 2013, 03:05:50 AM »
My 23 years of conversation and interactions are all invisible to other observers.
Which is a fancy way to say, "No, I don't have evidence, but I don't want to admit that, so I'll just say my evidence is invisible to everyone else."  Nobody here is fooled by your attempt to save face, so why not just drop that pretense and be honest?

This may come as a shock to you, but lots of people have mental (and thus unobservable) conversations with figments of their imaginations, which do them lots of good.  Such conversations help them figure things out, give them relief in times of stress, help them come to decisions, and so on.  This may or may not be the case for you, but the burden to show that is on you.  And to do that, you need to have evidence that you can show to others.

That's all there is to it.  Claiming that you're talking with God might fly with some (those who also believe), but not with anyone else.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Bible healings don't count
« Reply #28 on: July 01, 2013, 05:40:04 AM »
Even if religious people did establish the basics of science, that is no great feat. Nearly everyone had to be religious, or at least had to claim to be, 1000 years ago. And the churches, caliphs, popes, religious leaders, and so on controlled what research could be done and whether a scientist got paid or banished or executed for heresy. So it is not surprising that most early scientists were religious. They were religious, or they were dead. Some were both.

Fast forward to today. Where is the majority of cutting edge scientific work being done? Where do people go to become world class scientists? Religious institutions, theology schools, bible colleges and the like? Or government-funded facilities, secular universities and private businesses?

Who is busy protesting immunization, stem cell research and reproductive health programs? Who is trying to get religion taught to children as if it was science? Who decided that Noah's Ark was real, and that Jesus rode a dinosaur? Who has declared Darwin--who once planned to become a minister-- to be the enemy of all that is good and true because his ideas hold up far better than those of their religions?  It is the creationist-believing religious groups who are holding back scientific progress all over the world. Not atheists.

I can't fathom what you mean. Most scientists believe in God.  Most doctors believe in miracles. What evidence do you have that science is hindered by these people?

Oh my goodness!  That is just not true.  You may want to believe it is.  But your faith does not make it true.

I did a very quick google, and found GOBS of studies on scientists and religious beliefs, (in the USA), conducted by a wide range of reputable institutions, with transparent methodologies, and there is overwhelming evidence that the majority of scientists in the US DO NOT believe in god. Different studies targeted different members of the scientific community, and different studies asked the questions in different ways, but the evidence is pretty overwhelming.  Below I have a few links for you to peruse at your leisure. 

Many studies have been conducted in the United States and have generally found that scientists are less likely to believe in God than are the rest of the population. Precise definitions and statistics vary, but generally about 1/3 of scientists are atheists, 1/3 agnostic, and 1/3 have some belief in God (although some might be deistic, for example).[26][95][96] This is in contrast to the more than roughly 3/4 of the general population that believe in some God in the United States. Belief also varies slightly by field. Two surveys on physicists, geoscientists, biologists, mathematicians, and chemists have noted that, from those specializing in these fields, physicists had lowest percentage of belief in God (29%) while chemists had highest (41%).[95][97]  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Relationship_between_religion_and_science#Studies_on_scientists.27_beliefs

  http://www.people-press.org/2009/07/09/section-4-scientists-politics-and-religion/

Table 1 Comparison of survey answers among "greater" scientists 
Belief in personal God 1914 1933 1998
Personal belief    27.7    15    7.0
Personal disbelief    52.7    68    72.2
Doubt or agnosticism    20.9    17    20.8
 
Belief in human immortality  1914 1933 1998
Personal belief    35.2    18    7.9
Personal disbelief    25.4    53    76.7
Doubt or agnosticism    43.7    29    23.
http://www.stephenjaygould.org/ctrl/news/file002.html

Physicists were the least likely to believe in a god, while there was a higher rate of theism among chemists.  However, the only studies that indicated anything close to a majority of theistic scientists were those studies which included "social scientists" in the study.  That would include folks like anthropologists, public administrators, historians, communications majors, et al.  I think that really stretches the meaning of "scientist."  Don't you?   



Now I googled "do most doctors believe in miracles" and the results were much less clear.  There were a number of articles, mostly in religious journals, that all cite a study indicating that the majority of doctors DO believe in miracles. 

The study which they all cited was conducted by The Jewish Seminary of NY.  I clicked hyperlinks and various articles and even went to the seminary's website, and if I looked harder, I could probably find the study itself, or something about the methodology of the study, but quite frankly, it was not as easily available as the other studies I cited.

Here is an article citing the study http://www.wnd.com/2004/12/28152/

And here is the seminary website.  http://www.jtsa.edu/Scholars_and_Research.xml

Who was included in this study?  What was the methodology?  What was the wording of the questions?  I don't know.  Since I can't seem to find the study itself, only references to it, I'm not going to guess.  If you'd like to do the footwork and find the study itself, I'd be delighted to look at it and discuss it with you. 

But please don't make sweeping blanket statements that are so blatantly not true.  It really only damages your already tenuous credibility.