Author Topic: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!  (Read 13600 times)

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #116 on: July 10, 2013, 08:39:25 AM »
You two call me whatever you want.  I still think you're using the term liberally to apply it to me.  I just have to understand you're not able to see this any other way and go on with my day. 

This term is a better fit: spiritual not religious.  If you're not able to process this information you might want to get that looked at. Maybe this will help you.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/philip-goldberg/spiritual-but-not-religious-misunderstood-and-here-to-stay_b_2617306.html

Quote
SBNRs are as diverse and complex as any other spiritual cohort. They are here to stay, and their numbers will surely grow as pluralism evolves and access to the world's wisdom becomes even easier. It could be the most important religious development of our time, so let's make sure we understand it.

There is a lot more of this article.  If you're really interested in understanding me you will read the whole article.

Jdawg I am not going to do that.  Didn't miss it.  Every time you start your analysis of me you say I have a personal relationship which I don't so I basically stop there.  So that answers Nam's question.  I got it from you. 

Nam says follower =christian.  I am not a follower. 

Either way this debate is over.  You two think what you want.  The facts are right there in front of you.  You have the right to your opinions.  I have the right to mine.

Take care
I started typing a response, but it was getting pretty damn vitriolic, so I started again.  Then it got really sarcastic and smarmy, so I started again.  Then my head made high-velocity impact with my keyboard.

(sigh)

Junebug72...this is getting pretty exasperating.  What exactly is it that you are "not going to do"?  Read my posts to you?  It just looks like you didn't read the post and are just assuming the content.  Your claim that every time I start my analysis of you with saying that you have a personal relationship is just...incorrect.  I really don't see where that is implied anywhere in that last post.  Perhaps if you read it...I dunno.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #117 on: July 10, 2013, 04:41:25 PM »
^and she says she isn't an idiot. How much proof does one need?

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #118 on: July 11, 2013, 06:39:13 AM »
^and she says she isn't an idiot. How much proof does one need?

-Nam

Take care guys. 8)
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline jdawg70

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #119 on: July 11, 2013, 08:56:04 AM »
Take care guys. 8)
I take that with the same degree of sincerity that you have with any of your other posts at this point.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Samothec

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #120 on: July 12, 2013, 06:47:06 PM »
I call the Intelligent Designer God.  When I say that the idea has been around longer than the bible, it is gods I was speaking of. 
This was very evasive. Trying to retcon[1] what you meant when you were clear the first time around – because you didn't like being told you were wrong. You repeatedly insisted that you only refer to the creator as 'God' and have never before (in this thread) said "Intelligent Designer". Now, I could gather quotes from you proving you wrong here[2]. But I don't feel like wasting all that time since you will try to weasel out of the facts. So, you get to prove you meant 'God' every time you referenced ID (Intelligent Design - not the Designer) being around before the bible. You won't be able to – you will only find that your own words prove you wrong. OR you can show that you are worth talking to by apologizing and admit you were wrong.

My guess is that you won't do either one. Instead you will give me an unjustified smite[3] and make irrelevant claims.
 1. definition from Dictionary . com [short for `retroactive continuity']
1. n. The common situation in pulp fiction (esp. comics or soap operas) where a new story `reveals' things about events in previous stories, usually leaving the `facts' the same (thus preserving continuity) while completely changing their interpretation. For example, revealing that a whole season of "Dallas" was a dream was a retcon.
 2. Claiming that you meant 'gods' when every time you implied if not directly stated that you meant ID "theory".
 3. Nam can be strident at times but you've been giving him smites like they were cookies at their expiration date and you were a cookie factory trying to unload them.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #121 on: July 13, 2013, 07:11:54 AM »
/nb] what you meant when you were clear the first time around – because you didn't like being told you were wrong. You repeatedly insisted that you only refer to the creator as 'God' and have never before (in this thread) said "Intelligent Designer". Now, I could gather quotes from you proving you wrong here[1]. But I don't feel like wasting all that time since you will try to weasel out of the facts. So, you get to prove you meant 'God' every time you referenced ID (Intelligent Design - not the Designer) being around before the bible. You won't be able to – you will only find that your own words prove you wrong. OR you can show that you are worth talking to by apologizing and admit you were wrong.

My guess is that you won't do either one. Instead you will give me an unjustified smite[2] and make irrelevant claims.
 1. Claiming that you meant 'gods' when every time you implied if not directly stated that you meant ID "theory".
 2. Nam can be strident at times but you've been giving him smites like they were cookies at their expiration date and you were a cookie factory trying to unload them.

First of all I have not denied using the term "Intelligent Design". The bible does not use this term to speak of God. Second the only weaselling going on 'round here is this post of yours.  You guys Nam, Jdawg, and you are just trying to provoke me.  Guess what I'm not hungry for drama. 

I suggest you get your proof.  I know it's not there. I have not denied using that term.   I hope you enjoy that big hunk of mud pie in your face.

The only thing I have denied for the past 3 pages of this thread is being a christian; because I'm not.

I have noticed none-of-the-above has offered any reply to the link that was provided that defines my belief. 

Yes I will smite you for not providing proof of your claim. You have 24 hours . :?

There's three people here that can't admit they're wrong, especially to a theist,  and it is clear with every letter you type.

I have suffered this debate long enough. 

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #122 on: July 13, 2013, 09:21:52 AM »
And yet you keep responding which was one of the points made that you keep saying is untrue.

-Nam
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Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #123 on: July 13, 2013, 09:43:42 AM »
And yet you keep responding which was one of the points made that you keep saying is untrue.

-Nam

Not for long. hehe
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #124 on: July 13, 2013, 09:53:16 AM »
And yet you keep responding which was one of the points made that you keep saying is untrue.

-Nam

Not for long. hehe


I guess this is as far as you can muster in admitting you're wrong.

-Nam
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #125 on: July 13, 2013, 11:26:05 AM »
And yet you keep responding which was one of the points made that you keep saying is untrue.

-Nam

Not for long. hehe


I guess this is as far as you can muster in admitting you're wrong.

-Nam

No I'm not wrong. You are. Now be a man and admit it.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline ghost

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #126 on: July 13, 2013, 11:30:25 AM »
It uses fear and manipulation to accomplish the goal of enslaving women, discriminating homosexuality, and provide consequences for violence.

I've never once heard someone say the bible tries to enslave women. Also, you should be more specific. Not all versions of the bible discriminate against homos, my church has a few gay members.

Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #127 on: July 13, 2013, 11:36:42 AM »
It uses fear and manipulation to accomplish the goal of enslaving women, discriminating homosexuality, and provide consequences for violence.

I've never once heard someone say the bible tries to enslave women. Also, you should be more specific. Not all versions of the bible discriminate against homos, my church has a few gay members.

All versions of Moses's laws demand stoning homosexuals.  Your church may not participate but the bible certainly does.  The whole story of Adam and "Eve" eating the apple lies the foundation for thousands of years of sexual discrimination.  There's verses that tell women to obey their husbands;I cal that enslavement.  I really should have used the term oppressed.

The fact that you just said homos says to me 1 member of your church discriminates, you.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #128 on: July 13, 2013, 12:03:22 PM »
I've never once heard someone say the bible tries to enslave women. Also, you should be more specific. Not all versions of the bible discriminate against homos, my church has a few gay members.

The bible is extremely sexist, and its members have contributed to the oppression of women ever since it was written. Speaking as a woman, it IS slavery to insist that a woman kowtow to her man, that she cannot lead the church, that only certain roles in life are open to her, that she must make babies for god, that she must marry her rapist unless he pays her father, and much more. Some modern churches have softened those old stories, or ignored the old testament entirely (the whole argument of whether jesus replaced or accepted the old testament) but the fact is that the bible is an absolute horror for anyone who is not a dominant, rich, christian male.

And while some interpret the bible as being neutral or even positive of LGBTQ members, most who read the bible interpret it as being very, very anti-homosexuality.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #129 on: July 13, 2013, 01:04:54 PM »

I guess this is as far as you can muster in admitting you're wrong.

-Nam

No I'm not wrong. You are. Now be a man and admit it.


Jdawg I am not going to do that.  Didn't miss it.  Every time you start your analysis of me you say I have a personal relationship which I don't so I basically stop there.  So that answers Nam's question.  I got it from you. 
I assume you'll lead by example and you'll admit that you are wrong regarding this.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline screwtape

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #130 on: July 13, 2013, 03:24:48 PM »
I guess this is as far as you can muster in admitting you're wrong.

-Nam

No I'm not wrong. You are. Now be a man and admit it.

Cut it out, both of you.
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Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #131 on: July 13, 2013, 04:36:59 PM »
Oh, I see. Calling Junebug out on her bullshit is bad, screwtape.

Gotcha.

-Nam
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Offline Samothec

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #132 on: July 13, 2013, 05:22:36 PM »
Just to make it utterly clear, Junebug, I didn't do this to avoid your threat, I did it to rub your nose in how wrong you are but I found evidence of the real underlying problem:

#32
I believe in Intelligent Design.  The authors of the bible, though presumably wrong, thought up Intelligent Design before the bible was written, so it is possible to believe in God w/o the bible. 

In my reply to you (#40) I pointed out the issue about ID and Creationism.

In reply to that, in #50 you say:
I thought most atheist knew that it's predated by several other beliefs, as do I.

In #60 I point out that facts about ID and the problems about claiming that ID came before the Bible.

In # 67 you blew me off which prompted my disgusted reply in #77

Here in #91 you apologized but then go on to say:
As far as ID only coming from the bible; you're article does suggest that.  Only it makes more sense to me that ID came before the bible.  Someone had the idea before writing it down.  All the attributes the biblical authors assigned to God is their interpretation.  All that I say is mine.  Our belief in a powerful source of life comes from the mind not a book.  With more knowledge at my disposal my interpretation should be different. 

I'm not a sloppy thinker or writer.  I know my writing skills are not perfect but I'm quite fond of the way I think.  My English classes taught me to capitalize proper names.  I could call my interpretation of this power, The Great Scientist.  I don't believe The Great Scientist willed anything into existence but built it with the elements of the universe and an endless supply of intelligence.  I like "God" better so I'm sticking with that.   

Post #95 is where I again tried to reason with you in spite of feeling like you were ignoring every other word I wrote and replying to the distorted version in your head.

#100
I call the Intelligent Designer God.  When I say that the idea has been around longer than the bible, it is gods I was speaking of.   
I did not call you a liar in response to this because I hadn't gone back over everything. Now that I have, and while I was right, it was not the way I thought I was right. Going back over this material I can see that you are a sloppy thinker/writer and you thought you were communicating your thoughts just fine when you were instead creating confusion. You are vague when you shouldn't be. You use terms in ways most people don't.

Rewriting your words as it seems you want them to be read:
I believe in The Great Scientist.  The authors of the bible, though presumably wrong, thought up something like The Great Scientist before the bible was written, so it is possible to believe in God w/o the bible. 
I thought most atheist knew that the idea of The Great Scientist is predated by several other beliefs, as do I.
Only it makes more sense to me that The Great Scientist came before the bible.  Someone had the idea for The Great Scientist before writing it down.  All the attributes the biblical authors assigned to God is their interpretation.  All that I say is mine.  Our belief in a powerful source of life comes from the mind not a book.
Is this correct? If it is, then please be careful with the pronouns and read more carefully. There is no problem with any of these in the version I have rewritten here. The idea of god(s) does pre-date the Bible.

Design =/= Designer.
Use your own term of "The Great Scientist" or TGS for short.

IMO almost all the drama in this thread would not exist is you were willing to just use a bit more care in how you say things.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 05:34:27 PM by Samothec »
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Astreja

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #133 on: July 13, 2013, 05:49:14 PM »
I've never once heard someone say the bible tries to enslave women.

"Someone" doesn't say it; the Bible itself makes it quite clear.

  • Women are "unclean" during and after their menstrual periods, are not allowed to even touch certain things, are more unclean if they give birth to a daughter than a son, and have to make monthly offerings at the temple before they're allowed back into the fold.
  • If a woman is raped, the rapist has to pay 50 shekels of silver to her father and then marry her, and she doesn't get a say in the matter.
  • Lot offers his virgin daughters to a mob.
  • Plenty of men with multiple wives; no women with multiple male partners.
  • The "thou shalt not covet" commandment treats women as possessions.

Here's a more complete list of the misogyny in the Bible.

Quote
Also, you should be more specific. Not all versions of the bible discriminate against homos, my church has a few gay members.

Uh... If you  have an Old Testament in your Bible, the book of Leviticus clearly orders you to kill male homosexuals.  Paul also appears rather homophobic.  Perhaps the Jefferson Bible is okay, but any standard version of the  Bible clearly does discriminate against LGBT people.
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #134 on: July 13, 2013, 06:12:38 PM »

Paul also appears rather homophobic. 

Although I have been off religion as of late this suspicion had been rolling in my mind.
I'm sorry I can't be bothered to reference specific quotes but trust me it is there.
Paul referred to a non specific "thorn in his side" that he couldn't get past and god wouldn't remove.
Paul was big on celibacy.
Was Paul gay?
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Astreja

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #135 on: July 13, 2013, 07:42:52 PM »
Was Paul gay?

Unless archaeologists uncover a treasure trove of old writings that includes first-hand reports from one of his lovers, I don't think we'll ever know the answer to that.  Romans 7 hints that he was struggling with some profound self-loathing about something related to his physical body, though.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #136 on: July 14, 2013, 05:22:52 AM »
Just to make it utterly clear, Junebug, I didn't do this to avoid your threat, I did it to rub your nose in how wrong you are but I found evidence of the real underlying problem:

You didn't provide any proof of your claim against me; "I denied using the term  Intelligent Design."  It's just a bunch more of you twisting words around to confuse people.  You even said yourself you understand that it's the term I'm using causing the confusion.  All confusion should have cleared away as soon as I explained the use of the term.  All that rambling just makes you look desperate.  When you have to change the words to mean what you want they no longer mean what I meant.

I have proven you an unworthy source.  You did not provide proof of claim; denied using the term intelligent design.  Your use of the word "but" makes it obvious.

It's not my use of words that is the problem here but there is definitely some word abuse going on.

Nam got smites for his unfounded insults.  He really needs to expand his vocabulary.

Screwtape,

Don't scorn me.

I tried very graciously to walk away from this thread.  I proved my point.  There are several links to information about the spiritual but not religious.  I explained my life's philosophy comes from Ancient Toltec Knowledge.  I have my theory on the bible mostly that it's disgraceful to God.  When I say God I mean The Source of Life.  I am not referring to any religious deity.

Can you believe a smite for a sincere  take care guys.  Not one of them had given a summary of the link I provided.  That's when I knew it was just fun and games at my expense.  They are not the least bit sincere about understanding me. Anybody can twist words and confuse.  My beliefs are not this complicated. I am spiritual but not religious.  Religions use people's spirit/conscience for profit and control.  I am not a part of that.

Yes I know the bible and I am more than capable of holding my own in a biblical debate.  That does not make me a christian.  You have to claim to be a christian to be a christian.  I believe in God, all the religious propaganda is hearsay.  I go by my own personal experience.  SPAG right? 

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #137 on: July 15, 2013, 09:57:54 AM »
Oh, I see. Calling Junebug out on her bullshit is bad, screwtape.

Gotcha.

No, Nam.  Juvenile bickering is annoying and off topic, thus, bad. 
Barking back at moderation is against the rules, annoying and off topic, thus, also bad.  Cut it out.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #138 on: July 15, 2013, 10:01:17 AM »
Screwtape,

Don't scorn me.

I don't know what that means.  I asked you and Nam to drop the back and forth bickering.  That's it.  If you have a problem doing that, PM me.  Any other discussion of this in thread is off topic and will be deleted.  This goes for you, Nam and anyone else. 
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Offline screwtape

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #139 on: July 15, 2013, 10:07:29 AM »
Paul also appears rather homophobic. 

There is a fairly mainstream hypothesis that Paul was gay.
http://www.beliefnet.com/Faiths/Christianity/2004/04/Was-The-Apostle-Paul-Gay.aspx
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #140 on: July 15, 2013, 10:11:39 AM »
Can you believe a smite for a sincere  take care guys.  Not one of them had given a summary of the link I provided.  That's when I knew it was just fun and games at my expense.  They are not the least bit sincere about understanding me. Anybody can twist words and confuse.  My beliefs are not this complicated. I am spiritual but not religious.  Religions use people's spirit/conscience for profit and control.  I am not a part of that.
Junebug72 -

This is what is incredibly frustrating to me.  Look through this whole thread for what out back-and-forth had been like up until post #112.  I had in absolute sincerity made an attempt to understand what your beliefs are.  I started with a summary of what I thought your beliefs were.  You then corrected me on a few points, in which case I sincerely apologized for misconstruing you, and I made corrections to my initial summary.  Your next post to me was then to again complain to me for misunderstanding you the first time, which, BTW, I did attempt to explain the source of my misunderstanding.

It's the conversations following that where I am just at a loss.

Your complaint, sometime after my second summary (this post here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25104.msg560573.html#msg560573) that:
Quote
Jdawg I've said time and time again I don't believe in the myth of Jesus as you are suggesting.  I only think his existence as a man is likely.

I then asked for clarification where, in my second summation, I implied that you believed in the myth of Jesus or have a personal relationship with him.  You then proceed to quote my first summation and bold the point of contention.  I then pointed you to my second summation, which did not include such discourse, and frankly included no indication, whatsoever, that you accept the biblical myth of Jesus or have a personal relationship with him.  I repost a link to that second summation, which you say you did not miss it.  Yet you continually talk down to me as if I never said any of the words I did in the second summation.

You can yell at me all you want, but the obvious fact, at least in the first 3.5 pages of conversation in this thread, is that I sincerely wanted to understand what you believe.  I don't know if it's just the number of posters that have put their 2 cents in and you're conflating what other people had be saying to you with what I've been saying, but COME.  THE.  FUCK.  ON.  GET OVER THIS PERSECUTION COMPLEX - PLEASE.  It's making me embarrassed for you.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Samothec

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #141 on: July 15, 2013, 01:48:09 PM »
Was Paul gay?
Unless archaeologists uncover a treasure trove of old writings that includes first-hand reports from one of his lovers, I don't think we'll ever know the answer to that.  Romans 7 hints that he was struggling with some profound self-loathing about something related to his physical body, though.
I see the self-loathing in Romans 7 but I don't see the body reference. IMO the self-loathing and reference to coveting would imply an unwanted sexual desire. We could speculate that it was a desire for other men but I don't see (in that passage) any indication of that.

I have heard the idea presented that Paul was jealous of the "beloved" disciple; that he wanted to be the one loved by Jesus - not that I've read any confirmation of such speculation in the Bible.



As per Screwtape's instructions I will not continue the off topic exchange. Screwtape, a clarification please, I understood green to be the official moderation color and had said as such to a new member not too long ago. Was I in error and if so are all colors reserved or just green or just green and red?
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Graybeard

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #142 on: July 15, 2013, 02:39:16 PM »
...I explained my life's philosophy comes from Ancient Toltec Knowledge.
That is ridiculous. Please try to realise that just saying that you once read something about some belief system is not a reason for thinking you have any justification whatsoever:

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Scholars such as Michel Graulich (2002) and Susan D. Gillespie (1989) maintained that the difficulties in salvaging historic data from the Aztec accounts of Toltec history are too great to overcome. For example, there are two supposed Toltec rulers identified with Quetzalcoatl: the first ruler and founder of the Toltec Wikidynasty and the last ruler, who saw the end of the Toltec glory and was forced into humiliation and exile. The first is described as a valiant triumphant warrior, but the last as a feeble and self-doubting old man. This caused Graulich and Gillespie to suggest that the general Aztec cyclical view of time, where events repeated themselves at the end and beginning of cycles or eras was being inscribed into the historical record by the Aztecs, making it futile to attempt to distinguish between a historical Topiltzin Ce Acatl and a Quetzalcoatl deity.

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I believe in God, all the religious propaganda is hearsay.  I go by my own personal experience.  SPAG right?
I simply do not know what to make of that. Please, Junebug, read what you have written. There is no sense there whatsoever.

How long did the Toltecs worship Yahweh?

I don't think it is possible to debate someone who has absolutely no idea what they believe and simply make it up as they go along.
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 07:49:16 PM by Graybeard »
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline screwtape

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #143 on: July 15, 2013, 03:47:07 PM »
Screwtape, a clarification please, I understood green to be the official moderation color and had said as such to a new member not too long ago. Was I in error and if so are all colors reserved or just green or just green and red?

You are correct.  It is just green.  We originally picked green over red because we wanted something soothing, not inflamatory.  At least, that was what one particularly insistent and obnoxious mod thought...
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #144 on: July 15, 2013, 03:50:09 PM »
Just to make it utterly clear, Junebug, I didn't do this to avoid your threat, I did it to rub your nose in how wrong you are but I found evidence of the real underlying problem:
I do need to point out that you're making a lot more out of the term "Intelligent Designer" than is really necessary.  On top of that, you're also nitpicking.  It's certainly true that she didn't use the term Intelligent Designer earlier than that in the thread, and had previously spoken of gods instead.  So what?  The whole ID thing was a transparent attempt by Christian theists to make an end run around legal restrictions against teaching religious doctrine in public schools.  The point being that it was intended as a way to talk about God without actually saying "God".