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Online wheels5894

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #29 on: June 24, 2013, 05:21:56 AM »
To get back to the point of this thread, it seems that June
  • Doesn't approve of the bible and thinks it inaccurate ect
  • Does think that Jesus and god exist despite the bible not being accurate

Now it seems to me that, if the bible wasn't there, no one would know about the ideas within it. People might believe they have been in contact with a 'higher power' which they call god but such 'contact' fails to identify the being contacted so people name the being on the basis of other things - like the holy book they read.

So, if the bible did not exist, June would not ever have heard of Jesus and his god and would, instead, be telling of her belief in what ever other holy book she happened to have. So my point is, like others further up, that her belief in Jesus and god is dependant on the fact that she believes what is written in the biblical text since, without that text she would have nothing on which to base a faith.

So, June, can you explain how you can dismiss the bible so successfully in one breath whilst accepting apart of if with another breath? You cannot have it both ways - there is an either or situation -

  • Either the bible is true and belief can be based on its texts as June does
  • Or the bible is evil and dreadful and belief cannot be based on its text

Sorry, June, but you have to choose one - you can't have them both.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2013, 05:43:35 AM »

No, but you said that Jesus thought the prior OT was barbaric, and was attempting to highlight the errors in it.

The message of Jesus is so confused that nobody can really tell what he expected of his followers.

Paul says his crucifixion releases us from sin.
Matthew quotes him as saying that we should live feral, in the environment, with no wealth, like Lilies and birds, who do not need barns. (Matt 6)
He is quoted in the gospel of Thomas, saying a load of other shit
In Luke, he says the Kingdom will not be found by inspection, but is within you, whereas, he berates Sadducees for not believing in the resurrection.
He tells others that the end of the word is coming within their generation.
After telling a ruler to give his wealth away, he then tells his followers that they don't need to.
In the Gospel of John, Jesus forgets everything he said in Matthew, inc. Love Thy Neighbour, and then claims he is the "word".
Mark says that Christians can be identified by casting out demons, drink poisons, and healing the sick.
His ideas are mostly consistent with Hillel (90BC->) , in highlighting love in the OT - claiming that the OT was about love, and his new principles were compatible.

The Romans killed him, and we have no idea why, except that he might have claimed to be a king, and been a cultic shit stirrer. We have no documentation outside Mark-Matthew to give us any clue to a real Jesus. He could have been like Ghandi, and done a passive protest against something, and been arrested. That would kill him, but if so, that event would have been documented. Instead we have the implausible scenario that attempts to blame everything on Jews. He was strung up for something, and then we are palmed the conspiracy theory version of WHY, which would have hidden the real why. He could have also been like David Koresh, teaching apocalypse to a group, and telling them that he was their ticket to the afterlife. The Koresh model fits rather well, and explains the dispersal of the disciples, and the strange relationships he had with women and marriage.


Tricky for nonexistent people to be your hero?


Anything we wrote about God would be a disgrace to God, since we are clueless.



Lots of people have started cults and movements, and then been shot, without warning. Stories of the next Christians, say that people died deliberately in his name. (Or, in the name of getting an afterlife)




Islam is more popular. You could say that Christianity is more popular among people who count, or have brains. It's believed by more white people. Indians, Chinese and Arabs only count as 0.1 persons per white person.

HTH.

This link shows Christianity the most popular.  http://www.adherents.com/images/rel_pie.gif

It is not a disgrace to God to say God is Love.  Even if that God does not exist.

This is not a thread to discuss existence, it is a thread to discuss the disgraceful attributes assigned to God by the biblical authors.  Such as, anger and jealousy. 

You do not know that Jesus did not exist.  It's your opinion. 

^Wiki defines "attitude" as favor or disfavor towards a person, place, or thing.  Seems I used the word appropriately.  Your attitude influences your behavior but it's not behavior. 

The word was not used appropriately, since being an atheist doesn't mean you feel a certain way about everything. Hence, there is no "atheistic attitude", as I said before.
Also, magicmiles, you might want to take a long look in the mirror the next time you claim I need to learn some manners. I'm not the one who presumed to speak for others.

I could rewrite the sentence using the definition.  The word is correct.  Atheist Attitude=rejection of belief.  Just this little protest of yours displays your attitude.  I have encountered a lot of atheistic attitude on this site.  My opinion of that attitude is it developed because religious stories are unbelievable, even to me, a believer in Intelligent Design.

To just not believe would be one thing but that's not what's happening here.  Atheist attitude toward belief is displayed all over this website.

The correct word remains. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline Nam

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2013, 05:51:11 AM »
I got an ear full from a very profane girl at another website[1] a couple of months ago who says she's a Christian but doesn't believe in the Bible. So, I asked her if she has taken out just the things that Jesus has said in the Bible (that she doesn't believe in[2]), and has it separate from the rest. She said no. I then asked her where she got her teachings from and she replied "the Bible".

June here sounds a lot like her.

Just saying.

-Nam
 1. allpoetry.com, forget her name but i can look if i have to
 2. the Bible, not Jesus
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2013, 05:57:31 AM »
To get back to the point of this thread, it seems that June
  • Doesn't approve of the bible and thinks it inaccurate ect
  • Does think that Jesus and god exist despite the bible not being accurate

Now it seems to me that, if the bible wasn't there, no one would know about the ideas within it. People might believe they have been in contact with a 'higher power' which they call god but such 'contact' fails to identify the being contacted so people name the being on the basis of other things - like the holy book they read.

So, if the bible did not exist, June would not ever have heard of Jesus and his god and would, instead, be telling of her belief in what ever other holy book she happened to have. So my point is, like others further up, that her belief in Jesus and god is dependant on the fact that she believes what is written in the biblical text since, without that text she would have nothing on which to base a faith.

So, June, can you explain how you can dismiss the bible so successfully in one breath whilst accepting apart of if with another breath? You cannot have it both ways - there is an either or situation -

  • Either the bible is true and belief can be based on its texts as June does
  • Or the bible is evil and dreadful and belief cannot be based on its text

Sorry, June, but you have to choose one - you can't have them both.

If I based belief on the bible I would not believe.  Wheels I know you've read enough of my posts to know that I do not get my belief from the bible.  The bible is why I was atheist for 7 years.  I believe in Intelligent Design.  The authors of the bible, though presumably wrong, thought up Intelligent Design before the bible was written, so it is possible to believe in God w/o the bible.  Many tribes believed in a Higher Power and many still do.  It is the attributes assigned to that Power that I do not subscribe to.

It is possible that Jesus was real.  In the chance that is true I will not dishonor him.  IMO, we are all God's children.

You people need to stop telling lies about me.  Atheistic attitudes.

My belief comes from the belief that intelligence was necessary to have such a world as we do.  NOT FROM THE BIBLE. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline The Gawd

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2013, 06:09:37 AM »

If I based belief on the bible I would not believe.  Wheels I know you've read enough of my posts to know that I do not get my belief from the bible.  The bible is why I was atheist for 7 years.  I believe in Intelligent Design.  The authors of the bible, though presumably wrong, thought up Intelligent Design before the bible was written, so it is possible to believe in God w/o the bible.  Many tribes believed in a Higher Power and many still do.  It is the attributes assigned to that Power that I do not subscribe to.

It is possible that Jesus was real.  In the chance that is true I will not dishonor him.  IMO, we are all God's children.

You people need to stop telling lies about me.  Atheistic attitudes.

My belief comes from the belief that intelligence was necessary to have such a world as we do.  NOT FROM THE BIBLE.
You absolutely base your belief on the bible. it is bible god that you identify with and his son. There is no other way to get that belief than from the bible. Your belief in Jesus is from the bible, along with what you think he did. You dont see Hindus upset that the bible is disgraceful to their god... you know why? Because the bible has nothing to do with their belief system. The bible has EVERYTHING to do with your belief system, so thats why it offends you.

JB you are a christian, whether you want to admit it or not.

And in response to a previous response of yours, you stated that you did not say that the book was lies, just that it was disgraceful. I dont think you'll find too many here that disagree, the book is a disgrace. However, your inability to call it lies suggests that it is true. And since it is true, by your own admission, should they not give the accurate portrayal of your god? Should not a biography on Thomas Jesfferson include that he was a slaveholder?

For me accuracy is the best bet. As I look around the world, if there wasnt natural explanations for everything, I could see how a dumb evil god (like the one in the bible) would be responsible for these conditions. Certainly not the one you try to describe.

Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #34 on: June 24, 2013, 09:10:53 AM »

If I based belief on the bible I would not believe.  Wheels I know you've read enough of my posts to know that I do not get my belief from the bible.  The bible is why I was atheist for 7 years.  I believe in Intelligent Design.  The authors of the bible, though presumably wrong, thought up Intelligent Design before the bible was written, so it is possible to believe in God w/o the bible.  Many tribes believed in a Higher Power and many still do.  It is the attributes assigned to that Power that I do not subscribe to.

It is possible that Jesus was real.  In the chance that is true I will not dishonor him.  IMO, we are all God's children.

You people need to stop telling lies about me.  Atheistic attitudes.

My belief comes from the belief that intelligence was necessary to have such a world as we do.  NOT FROM THE BIBLE.
You absolutely base your belief on the bible. it is bible god that you identify with and his son. There is no other way to get that belief than from the bible. Your belief in Jesus is from the bible, along with what you think he did. You dont see Hindus upset that the bible is disgraceful to their god... you know why? Because the bible has nothing to do with their belief system. The bible has EVERYTHING to do with your belief system, so thats why it offends you.

JB you are a christian, whether you want to admit it or not.

And in response to a previous response of yours, you stated that you did not say that the book was lies, just that it was disgraceful. I dont think you'll find too many here that disagree, the book is a disgrace. However, your inability to call it lies suggests that it is true. And since it is true, by your own admission, should they not give the accurate portrayal of your god? Should not a biography on Thomas Jesfferson include that he was a slaveholder?

For me accuracy is the best bet. As I look around the world, if there wasnt natural explanations for everything, I could see how a dumb evil god (like the one in the bible) would be responsible for these conditions. Certainly not the one you try to describe.

Well I think I know where my belief comes from better than you. 

This is no different from me saying they really believe they just say they don't.  I could say what I want about you, it does not make it true.   If I say I do not base my belief on the bible, I do not, and I find it most arrogant for any of you to say otherwise.  If my belief was bible based I would believe I was condemned to hell along with everybody here.

Do I agree with some of Jesus's teachings, yes I do.  I believe in some Buddhist teachings, I believe in some Native American teachings.  There is plenty of sources that influence my belief.  What I find critical is that I consider the consequences and not follow blindly. 

Ancient Toltec knowledge is what I live my life by.  Take that and really stick it in your ear. 

I am not a liar.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #35 on: June 24, 2013, 10:05:24 AM »
Well I think I know where my belief comes from better than you. 
So junebug72...

...where does your belief in the existence of Jesus come from?

You are correct - you know where you belief comes from better than the rest of us.  You say that it does not come from the bible; so far as I can tell, the only primary source for the existence of Jesus, the Jesus that has some relationship to god (not sure what you believe in that respect), is the bible.

It boils down to this: how did you learn about Jesus?
Was it from the bible?  Seems clearly that, in your case, the answer is 'no'.
Was it from the people around you?  If so, where did they there about Jesus?  If not the bible, where?
Was it from direct experience of Jesus in some form or another?  If so, is it something you can describe?

Again, like you said, you know where your belief comes better than we do.  Please help close the gap in understanding.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #36 on: June 24, 2013, 10:07:09 AM »
If it was nothing but BS I would think the people of the time would not have bought the story at all and Christianity would not be the most popular religion in the world. 

I just want to point out to you the lack of reliability of that logic.

If it was nothing but BS I would think the people of the time would not have bought the story at all and Islam would not be a very popular religion in the world.

If it was nothing but BS I would think the people of the time would not have bought the story at all and Hinduism would not be the most popular religion in Asia.

If it was nothing but BS I would think the people of the time would not have bought the story at all and Mormonism would not be a popular religion in the US.

If it was nothing but BS I would think the people of the time would not have bought the story at all and Scientology would not be a popular religion in the Hollywood.


So I hope you can see that popularity is not correlated with veracity.  I'm not arguing jesus H did not exist.  I'm just pointing out because a lot of people believe in jesus H, does not mean there actually was a jesus H.


 
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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #37 on: June 24, 2013, 10:27:06 AM »
This is not a thread to discuss existence, it is a thread to discuss the disgraceful attributes assigned to God by the biblical authors.  Such as, anger and jealousy. 

If it is a disgrace to say god is angry or jealous, I take it to mean you think god is neither of those things.  How do you know that?  Why do you think those alleged prophets were wrong?  I ask because I have no way to tell which of you is right.  I've never met god to assess the various traits of his personality.   



It is possible that Jesus was real.  In the chance that is true I will not dishonor him. 

As I pointed out in my previous post, there are lots of religious traditions and stories which you, presumably, put as much or little faith in as the bible.  Do you also tiptoe around those heroes, on the chance they are also true?  Are you careful to not dishonor Krishna?  How about Mohammed?  Or XenuWiki

You people need to stop telling lies about me. 

Please dial back our use of the "L word".  Nobody is telling lies, that I can see.  They may have made some wrong assumptions or had some misunderstandings.  Thanks. 

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #38 on: June 24, 2013, 10:29:39 AM »

This link shows Christianity the most popular.  http://www.adherents.com/images/rel_pie.gif


Oh, you mean Christianity is the most popular religion, because rich white people put Christian down on the census forms, even though they don't know what it is.

I like this picture
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Christian_distribution.png

... says 60-70% of Australia is Christian, yet Magic Miles says a Christian in Australia is seen as a retard.

Not only are white Christians more important that Muslims and Hindus, but they get to lie about their belief as well. Most of the protestants I know, say that Catholics are Satanists, so that rules out 70% of the Christians.

http://theologica.ning.com/profiles/blogs/how-many-real-christians-in

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You do not know that Jesus did not exist.  It's your opinion. 

I didn't know that I had opinions that I didn't have.
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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #39 on: June 24, 2013, 11:40:48 AM »
I think the bible is a disgrace to humankind. We're in agreement that it was not divinely inspired, and is in fact the work of humans, so I put the blame where I think it belongs - squarely on people who wanted to be obeyed and were willing to use threats of eternal damnation to ensure it.

I'd like to propose a slightly different suggestion on jb's behalf. I'm sure she'll set me straight if I have this wrong.

I get the impression that junebug is well aware that she has beliefs in a creator that has similar attributes to the God of christianity-lite (you know, the God of Love that doesn't show up in the bible much) and in light of her chosen beliefs, she rejects the nastiness and cherry picks what she accepts - this is standard operating procedure among moderate believers and at least in this case, comparatively harmless. She categorically denounces the opportunities to use those beliefs to oppress others and consistently sides with the oppressed - as long as she continues to do so, she can SPAG all over the place and it won't bother me one bit. I realize that this is very frustrating to some members, but I'll take a kind-hearted, well-intentioned believer in a self created decent deity over a "Crusader for Christ" type any day. YMMV - I would like to see more critical thinking, but she has come a long way in her postings during her time here and I want to give fair credit to her for that. It couldn't have been easy.

I'm tossing this out for approval or dispute from junebug herself - I suspect that she uses the word "God" to essentially mean "source of creation" rather than anything related to the "Christian homicidal maniac who hates most of us and is itching to send us to hell to burn for eternity" - you know, the one in the bible that she's denouncing in this thread. She also indicates (right here in this thread) that her beliefs are influenced by other traditions such as Buddhism and Native American traditions so continuing to insist that she is a christian whether she likes it or not seems to me to be somewhat unfair. If she is using the term "God" because it's familiar to most everyone she is surrounded with, but has made an effort to make the distinction clear here, we could consider dropping the bible argument in favor of discussing the rest of her beliefs. SPAG, yes, but she's made no secret of that in all the time she's been posting here. She has consistently stated that she does not believe the bible is the inerrant word of god. I'm going to have to side with her - she a SPAGarian, not a christian - true of most christians, but usually not to their knowledge. And she does know it - in fact I don't recall her ever denying it (although I'm sure if she has, someone will link to it and I'll take it back  ;)).

junebug, I'm very interested in how you came to hold such diverse views on God. I went though a period of serious SPAG during the years that I was still a believer (at least I thought I was  ;)) so some of what you say reminds me a great deal of that time in my life. I held beliefs similar to those you seem to have. To this day, I find Buddhism very appealing as a philosophy, minus a deity. The emphasis on a wide view of the world - I like it.
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Offline Samothec

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #40 on: June 24, 2013, 01:45:27 PM »
 
I believe in Intelligent Design.  The authors of the bible, though presumably wrong, thought up Intelligent Design before the bible was written, so it is possible to believe in God w/o the bible. 
It was proven in a court of law – which means rigorous proof – that Intelligent Design is a only slightly modified version of Creationism.
Wiki article on the Dover case
Multiple versions for how the universe came to be been proposed. Some have been created to match the facts (Big Bang) more than others (pretty much everything else). I will grant that ID has been altered to more closely coincide with what has been discovered about the history of the universe. But you need to understand that most atheists know the origin of ID (as modified Creationism) and so view it as Xian.

It is possible that Jesus was real.  In the chance that is true I will not dishonor him.  IMO, we are all God's children.
The only source for information about Jesus is the New Testament of the Bible. It is these two facts (your belief in ID & Jesus) which make people say that your belief comes from the Bible. The only source for the material underlying those portions of your belief comes from the Bible. So it does not appear to be a lie to say that your belief comes from the Bible as uncomfortable as that makes you feel.

But your refutation of that says to me that you have a strong spiritual sense/need so you are trying to find a satisfactory solution. And from Jag's post it seems that I'm not the only one who sees that in your writing. IMO there are no good solutions but there are a few moderate ones. (As well as plenty of bad ones.) I was going to ask if you had checked out Buddhism or other more philosophical routes then I saw a later post by you where you mention Buddhism.

Back to the topic, somewhat. From what I have seen, there are no Christians who follow the Old Testament. Those who refer to themselves as "Christian" but follow the Old Testament are nasty vile people who I use "Xian" for when referring to them.

I would like to see a public campaign which drives home the idea that the Old Testament is only for Jews (who seem to know how to follow it without becoming raving idiots en mass), that Christians only follow the New Testament, and that Mormons only follow the Book of Mormon (although AFAIK they mostly do that anyway). I am fairly sure that pretty much every Christian and Xian who looks down on Mormons does not see the irony or hypocrisy – that they are to Jews what the Mormons are to them.

Is the Bible full of crap? Yes with the New Testament having a dash more compassion even if it is no less vile. But what "holy" book isn't?

I would like to suggest, junebug72, that until you find something else to point to as your spiritual inspiration (a single source people can easily grasp) and drop all references to Jesus, you might want to only condemn the Old Testament. Otherwise you will continue to get people questioning you on how you can hold such self-contradictory beliefs. Some on this site see any spirituality as a bad thing (and too often they are right) so the subtleties of your beliefs will be overlooked deliberately by some. Others of us (including me sometimes) will overlook them unintentionally. So I would also like to suggest if my speculations are correct that you: embrace the term SPAG (Self Projection As God), only refer to the writings about Jesus as inspirational, drop "God" & ID and instead say "Creator" and refer to a creation event billions of years ago. Obviously only if that is what you believe but the point is that terminology matters to some of us – mainly because using the most accurate words leads to fewer misunderstandings.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #41 on: June 24, 2013, 02:28:41 PM »
Jews (who seem to know how to follow it without becoming raving idiots en mass),

eh, I'd say the less they follow it, the less likely they are to be raving idiots.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Haredi_Judaism
http://www.thedailybeast.com/newsweek/2012/01/01/israel-s-ultra-orthodox-problem.html
http://nymag.com/news/features/east-ramapo-hasidim-2013-4/

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Offline Samothec

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #42 on: June 24, 2013, 02:38:38 PM »
That was why I added the "en mass" - I know they have their wackos extremists too. Have you noticed though that Jewish extremists never come out to support the YEC Xians who claim a literal Genesis? At least, I've never heard of that happening.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline Willie

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #43 on: June 24, 2013, 09:45:16 PM »
It was proven in a court of law – which means rigorous proof – that Intelligent Design is a only slightly modified version of Creationism.
I suspect that she might not be using the term to refer to the pseudo-scientific doctrine by that name that is promoted by the Discovery Institute, but more of a generic, deist-like, belief in a creator. My apologies JB if I got that all wrong. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or define you, but that's the impression I've gotten.

Offline Willie

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #44 on: June 24, 2013, 09:58:27 PM »
  • Either the bible is true and belief can be based on its texts as June does
  • Or the bible is evil and dreadful and belief cannot be based on its text

Sorry, June, but you have to choose one - you can't have them both.

False dichotomy. It is not unheard of for a real person to be followed by a mix of true stories and tall tales. There was a real Davy Crockett, but I'm pretty sure that story in which he rode an alligator up Niagara Falls isn't true. I'm not arguing that this either is or isn't the case with Jesus, but only that there are more possibilities than the two you offer.

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #45 on: June 24, 2013, 10:20:42 PM »
I suspect that she might not be using the term to refer to the pseudo-scientific doctrine by that name that is promoted by the Discovery Institute, but more of a generic, deist-like, belief in a creator. My apologies JB if I got that all wrong. I'm not trying to put words in your mouth or define you, but that's the impression I've gotten.

She did capitalize it...
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Offline Willie

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #46 on: June 24, 2013, 11:14:59 PM »
^^ Good point.

Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2013, 05:45:26 AM »
If it is a disgrace to say god is angry or jealous, I take it to mean you think god is neither of those things.  How do you know that?  Why do you think those alleged prophets were wrong?  I ask because I have no way to tell which of you is right.  I've never met god to assess the various traits of his personality.
   


I don't claim to know anything.  It does however seem obvious to me.  I see no wrath of God.


As I pointed out in my previous post, there are lots of religious traditions and stories which you, presumably, put as much or little faith in as the bible.  Do you also tiptoe around those heroes, on the chance they are also true?  Are you careful to not dishonor Krishna?  How about Mohammed?  Or XenuWiki?



I do not make it a habit of dishonoring the heroes of others.  That just seems to piss people off.



Please dial back our use of the "L word".  Nobody is telling lies, that I can see.  They may have made some wrong assumptions or had some misunderstandings.  Thanks.

Their words do not insinuate assumption.  They spoke as if they had knowledge of me. 

Yes the "L" word was harsh, should have used the word dishonest.  See what I mean about words.  I apologize for mine. :)
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 05:51:29 AM by junebug72 »
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2013, 06:29:52 AM »
I think the bible is a disgrace to humankind. We're in agreement that it was not divinely inspired, and is in fact the work of humans, so I put the blame where I think it belongs - squarely on people who wanted to be obeyed and were willing to use threats of eternal damnation to ensure it.

I'd like to propose a slightly different suggestion on jb's behalf. I'm sure she'll set me straight if I have this wrong.

I get the impression that junebug is well aware that she has beliefs in a creator that has similar attributes to the God of christianity-lite (you know, the God of Love that doesn't show up in the bible much) and in light of her chosen beliefs, she rejects the nastiness and cherry picks what she accepts - this is standard operating procedure among moderate believers and at least in this case, comparatively harmless. She categorically denounces the opportunities to use those beliefs to oppress others and consistently sides with the oppressed - as long as she continues to do so, she can SPAG all over the place and it won't bother me one bit. I realize that this is very frustrating to some members, but I'll take a kind-hearted, well-intentioned believer in a self created decent deity over a "Crusader for Christ" type any day. YMMV - I would like to see more critical thinking, but she has come a long way in her postings during her time here and I want to give fair credit to her for that. It couldn't have been easy.

I'm tossing this out for approval or dispute from junebug herself - I suspect that she uses the word "God" to essentially mean "source of creation" rather than anything related to the "Christian homicidal maniac who hates most of us and is itching to send us to hell to burn for eternity" - you know, the one in the bible that she's denouncing in this thread. She also indicates (right here in this thread) that her beliefs are influenced by other traditions such as Buddhism and Native American traditions so continuing to insist that she is a christian whether she likes it or not seems to me to be somewhat unfair. If she is using the term "God" because it's familiar to most everyone she is surrounded with, but has made an effort to make the distinction clear here, we could consider dropping the bible argument in favor of discussing the rest of her beliefs. SPAG, yes, but she's made no secret of that in all the time she's been posting here. She has consistently stated that she does not believe the bible is the inerrant word of god. I'm going to have to side with her - she a SPAGarian, not a christian - true of most christians, but usually not to their knowledge. And she does know it - in fact I don't recall her ever denying it (although I'm sure if she has, someone will link to it and I'll take it back  ;)).

junebug, I'm very interested in how you came to hold such diverse views on God. I went though a period of serious SPAG during the years that I was still a believer (at least I thought I was  ;)) so some of what you say reminds me a great deal of that time in my life. I held beliefs similar to those you seem to have. To this day, I find Buddhism very appealing as a philosophy, minus a deity. The emphasis on a wide view of the world - I like it.

Thanks Jag.  That was a breath of fresh air.  The only thing I'll disagree with here is cherry picking.  SPAGger  I am but I haven't cherry picked the bible.  I only recognize the historical value of the book. Don't worry I have embraced the term since my introduction. ;)  It's catchy.

This is a well thought out unbiased analysis of Junebug.

I'd be happy to share.  In my mind The Creator has all knowledge and is the master of every skill that the creation possesses with attributes that the created can not comprehend. I come to my beliefs by asking myself the hard questions and determining from my knowledge base what could be true or is it possible.  I believe strongly in the Creator's Love because of the beauty of Love.  An unkind God would have made us a planet of awful things where there was no joy, beauty, freedom, compassion or love.

Once you have defined The Creator as Loving the rest just falls into place.  If it's not Loving it is not true.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #49 on: June 25, 2013, 06:42:28 AM »
As a confessed SPAGer and Cherry Picker I find that I am throwing out more and more cherries lately.

Here is a site I have been reading a lot that I think Jag pointed me to.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ken_daniels/why.html#Christian







It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #50 on: June 25, 2013, 06:49:16 AM »
I believe in Intelligent Design.  The authors of the bible, though presumably wrong, thought up Intelligent Design before the bible was written, so it is possible to believe in God w/o the bible. 
It was proven in a court of law – which means rigorous proof – that Intelligent Design is a only slightly modified version of Creationism.
Wiki article on the Dover case
Multiple versions for how the universe came to be been proposed. Some have been created to match the facts (Big Bang) more than others (pretty much everything else). I will grant that ID has been altered to more closely coincide with what has been discovered about the history of the universe. But you need to understand that most atheists know the origin of ID (as modified Creationism) and so view it as Xian.


I thought most atheist knew that it's predated by several other beliefs, as do I.

It is possible that Jesus was real.  In the chance that is true I will not dishonor him.  IMO, we are all God's children.



The only source for information about Jesus is the New Testament of the Bible. It is these two facts (your belief in ID & Jesus) which make people say that your belief comes from the Bible. The only source for the material underlying those portions of your belief comes from the Bible. So it does not appear to be a lie to say that your belief comes from the Bible as uncomfortable as that makes you feel.


Source of ID=My own mind
Source of Jesus=Bible
Source of belief=My own mind

The core of my belief is very UNchristian, where was that in their analogy?


Back to the topic, somewhat. From what I have seen, there are no Christians who follow the Old Testament. Those who refer to themselves as "Christian" but follow the Old Testament are nasty vile people who I use "Xian" for when referring to them.

Any Christian that claims homosexuality an abomination is following OT doctrine.


Is the Bible full of crap? Yes with the New Testament having a dash more compassion even if it is no less vile. But what "holy" book isn't?

I would like to suggest, junebug72, that until you find something else to point to as your spiritual inspiration (a single source people can easily grasp) and drop all references to Jesus, you might want to only condemn the Old Testament. Otherwise you will continue to get people questioning you on how you can hold such self-contradictory beliefs. Some on this site see any spirituality as a bad thing (and too often they are right) so the subtleties of your beliefs will be overlooked deliberately by some. Others of us (including me sometimes) will overlook them unintentionally. So I would also like to suggest if my speculations are correct that you: embrace the term SPAG (Self Projection As God), only refer to the writings about Jesus as inspirational, drop "God" & ID and instead say "Creator" and refer to a creation event billions of years ago. Obviously only if that is what you believe but the point is that terminology matters to some of us – mainly because using the most accurate words leads to fewer misunderstandings.

Good point.

Thanks for the suggestion.  I'll take it under advisement. ;)
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline William

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #51 on: June 25, 2013, 07:02:33 AM »
An unkind God would have made us a planet of awful things where there was no joy, beauty, freedom, compassion or love.





Git mit uns

Offline William

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #52 on: June 25, 2013, 07:16:34 AM »
Any Christian that claims homosexuality an abomination is following OT doctrine.

And is obeying Jesus - following his word exactly:
Quote
Matthew 5:17-18

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Git mit uns

Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #53 on: June 25, 2013, 08:18:57 AM »
As a confessed SPAGer and Cherry Picker I find that I am throwing out more and more cherries lately.

Here is a site I have been reading a lot that I think Jag pointed me to.

http://www.infidels.org/library/modern/ken_daniels/why.html#Christian

I've been reading it. I'll get back to you.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Online screwtape

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #54 on: June 25, 2013, 09:26:36 AM »
I don't claim to know anything.  It does however seem obvious to me.  I see no wrath of God.

Okay, pardon me.  Why do you think that?  Lots of people who believe in god think they see his wrath everywhere.  Why are they not right?


I do not make it a habit of dishonoring the heroes of others.  That just seems to piss people off.

But their heroes are preposterous, are they not?  Let's take Krishna.  A blue guy (sometimes black) who counciled prince Arjuna before a battle. The prince was worried about killing a lot of people, some of whom were his friends and relatives.  Krishna told him not to worry.  It is an illusion that all those people are distinct people who can be killed.  He said they are all just little pieces of the one god, Brahman, that have forgotten they are each a spark of the divine.  So, go ahead, do your duty and kill them, because you are not really killing them at all.[1]

Tell me that's not crazy. 

Or we could go into how Mohammed married a 6 year old child and heroically waited until she was 9 to consummate the relationship.

I'd say sometimes people's heroes are dishonorable, and pointing that out is not wrong. 



edit:

The only thing I'll disagree with here is cherry picking.  SPAGger  I am but I haven't cherry picked the bible.
...
Source of Jesus=Bible

Just sayin'

 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bhagavad_Gita
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 09:47:53 AM by screwtape »
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Online Jag

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #55 on: June 25, 2013, 09:42:13 AM »
Thanks Jag.  That was a breath of fresh air.  The only thing I'll disagree with here is cherry picking.  SPAGger  I am but I haven't cherry picked the bible.  I only recognize the historical value of the book. Don't worry I have embraced the term since my introduction. ;)  It's catchy.
I thought about it after I posted and realized that "cherry picking" was likely to be the term you objected to, and I should have found a different way to say that part. I'm ok with tossing the bible aside entirely  ;)

Quote
This is a well thought out unbiased analysis of Junebug.

That's what I was aiming for. Glad I got it mostly right.

Quote
I'd be happy to share.  In my mind The Creator has all knowledge and is the master of every skill that the creation possesses with attributes that the created can not comprehend. I come to my beliefs by asking myself the hard questions and determining from my knowledge base what could be true or is it possible.  I believe strongly in the Creator's Love because of the beauty of Love.  An unkind God would have made us a planet of awful things where there was no joy, beauty, freedom, compassion or love.

Once you have defined The Creator as Loving the rest just falls into place.  If it's not Loving it is not true.

I get where you are coming from. I disagree obviously, but I get it. In fact, with the 2 lines above, you sound a lot like my best friend. I think you would like her - I describe her as a hippie/earth-mother.

The more I learn about Buddhism, the more it appeals to me. Skip over a deity (which Buddha didn't seem all that interested in anyway) and it fits the way I want to live (I'm working on it). I'm taking a Comparative Religions class this semester and we've been focused on Eastern traditions so far.  I really like their focus on life and learning - Hinduism in practice has become something else entirely though. Buddhism in particular seems to really focus on the idea of everyone helping more and b!tching less. I'll let you know what I think of Confucianism after this week  ;D
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Offline Graybeard

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #56 on: June 25, 2013, 10:07:59 AM »
The bible really is a disgrace, a con, designed to control a petty and cruel civilization.  It uses fear and manipulation to accomplish the goal of enslaving women, discriminating homosexuality, and provide consequences for violence.  While their reasons seem somewhat noble, after 6000 years it is in dire need of an upgrade. 

My biggest problem with the book is the cruel, angry, and jealous God it portrays.

The problem is that the Bible contains all anyone knows about God or can know about God. If you ban it, no one would know anything about Yahweh/Immanuel/The Holy Spirit. - This would be a good thing but  if you altered it, it would not be the Bible, and some other fairy tale would take its place.

It is like saying we should update Snow White and the 7 Dwarves - Give her an iPhone and a sports car and have the Dwarves as illegal Mexican workers. 

Quote
God can exist without the bible.

No, He can't. He can no more exist without the Bible than Harry Potter can exist without the books and films about him.

PS, Why am I not surprised that you believe in intelligent design? Why are the people who think ID is valid, the same people who have low marks in the science subject?
« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 10:09:32 AM by Graybeard »
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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #57 on: June 25, 2013, 12:01:23 PM »
The only thing I'll disagree with here is cherry picking.  SPAGger  I am but I haven't cherry picked the bible.
...
Source of Jesus=Bible

Just sayin'
What screwtape is pointing out is the same thing that is confusing me about your beliefs and viewpoints.  But perhaps some clarity is in order:

Do you believe that Jesus was an actual, existing entity?
If so, do you believe this actual, existing entity was just a human or 'divine' in some manner?
If not, do you view the Jesus entity simply an ideal to strive towards?
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