Author Topic: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!  (Read 17887 times)

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Offline Samothec

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #145 on: July 15, 2013, 04:02:33 PM »
I do need to point out that you're making a lot more out of the term "Intelligent Designer" than is really necessary.  On top of that, you're also nitpicking.  It's certainly true that she didn't use the term Intelligent Designer earlier than that in the thread, and had previously spoken of gods instead.
Please reread what I actually wrote. She claimed ID was around before the Bible. I pointed out it wasn't. Then she changed her claim to saying that "gods" were around before the Bible which is true and if she had said that then we wouldn't be having this discussion. But she never did - she never used the term Designer and in fact insisted that she would only use the term "God". Again, read what each of us actually wrote. I'm tired of this and don't like being libeled[1] for which I did report her.
It would also be helpful if she would answer my question in #132 but I am not hopeful about that.

Also, ignore the claim, now false of "As per Screwtape's instructions I will not continue the off topic exchange." in my previous post.
 1. it sounds weird saying that instead of 'slandered' but this is written and not spoken
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 04:10:48 PM by Samothec »
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #146 on: July 15, 2013, 04:22:42 PM »

She claimed ID was around before the Bible. I pointed out it wasn't.

I'm quite sure it was, or at least the concept.
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Offline Traveler

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #147 on: July 15, 2013, 05:50:59 PM »
I haven't read the whole thread, but what I'm seeing here, in terms of misunderstanding, seems to be a difference in thought processes. Call it right brain vs. left brain, or conceptual vs. detailed, touchy-feely vs. logical ...

In my opinion, there is a place for both. I know a lot of people who consider themselves spiritual but not religious. These tend to be folks who don't like to label their beliefs and/or practices. They often just enjoy whatever the experience is, without trying too hard to define it. In this case, it sounds like junebug likes to use the word "god." Some do that for lack of a better word, or because that word is what's common in our society, or simply so that others maybe sort of get a vague sense of what she might be talking about.

But here's the thing. If you're a conceptual person, having a life experience, and its important but vague, it is VERY hard to put it in words so that others understand it. It is VERY hard to defend it based on logic. It is VERY hard to explain it to a detail-oriented, logical, left brain kind of person.

In my case, if I have an "interesting experience," I try not to define it. It could be psychological (inner child word, dreams, fantasy). It could be something else. For me, it doesn't matter what it is, and I don't call it god. I simply call it an interesting experience, or if I'm around someone with a particular viewpoint, perhaps I call it a journey, or a meditation, or something. I might compare it to prayer or waking dream, though those are just comparisons.

I THINK, that perhaps junebug is somewhere in this realm of experience. In this hard-to-describe, not religiously organized, experiential, maybe-spiritual, stuff. It may take awhile for her to come up with words, or explanations, or ways of defending her experience. And, quite frankly, I'm not worried about her defending it. Some things simply can't be explained well, especially to someone who doesn't share a worldview, or a way of experiencing the world.

So, what's my point? I guess its this ... that this crowd can be a VERY tough one for anyone who doesn't look at the whole world experience with logic, and logic only. Someone like myself, who has been around this planet for a fairly long time, can often explain my right brain, conceptual experiences in ways that most can understand. But younger persons, or persons more steeped in a christian background, who chooses to use words like "god," are going to have a tough time getting through.

Again, I haven't read through the whole thread, so I might be missing something major. But I find viewpoints that differ from "militant atheist" and "born again christian nutjob" very refreshing, regardless of the form it takes. At least its different. :)
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #148 on: July 15, 2013, 08:51:20 PM »
@Trav

yeah yeah yeah, but she believes in the Jesus story and finds it admirable what he did for mankind...

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #149 on: July 15, 2013, 08:53:20 PM »
Traveler, isn't that more a difference of standards vs no standards?
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Offline Traveler

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #150 on: July 15, 2013, 11:51:45 PM »
Traveler, isn't that more a difference of standards vs no standards?


Well, speaking for myself, no, I don't think that. I can't speak for the OP, because I haven't read all her stuff. The difference, to me, is whether one says "this is my experience," vs. "this is the one-and-only truth." We all have our subjective experience. I do, you do, everyone does. Some people's interpretation of their subjective experiences more closely approximate reality than others.

As for the jesus story, which one? The one that nicey-nice ministers tell from the pulpit? Lots of people believe it. As a myth, its not necessarily horrible, up to a point. The actual bible story? I think its scary as hell and pretty damn violent. If he was a kind, gentle, hippie guy who only wanted to help people, what kind of asshole god would want him tortured to death? Ok, now my bias is showing.  ;)

I don't know what to tell you, because I most certainly do not believe in the jesus story, the bible, or any abrahamic religion I've ever heard of. But what I'm hearing from her is that she doesn't either. For her, perhaps, jesus is metaphorical. I don't know ... I'm edging too far into the speculative at this point. Far be it for me to interpret her beliefs. But that's my point, actually. That some are telling her what her beliefs are, and then denying them. Instead, we need to try to understand just what she's actually trying to tell us. We do it all the time here. Interpret all folks who self-identify as christians as if they are bible literalists, and if they're not that they're not true christians. Where have I heard those arguments before? Oh, yeah, from bible literalists.  :o

Tell you what, before I dig myself even deeper. I'll try to scrape up some time to read through the entire thread (gak) and then I'll have a more informed opinion on this exact example, rather than on general theories of how folks interact re: spiritual misunderstandings. Because you guys are talking about specific examples and I'm merely proposing a hypothesis about interactions like these.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #151 on: July 16, 2013, 05:49:27 AM »
Can you believe a smite for a sincere  take care guys.  Not one of them had given a summary of the link I provided.  That's when I knew it was just fun and games at my expense.  They are not the least bit sincere about understanding me. Anybody can twist words and confuse.  My beliefs are not this complicated. I am spiritual but not religious.  Religions use people's spirit/conscience for profit and control.  I am not a part of that.
Junebug72 -

This is what is incredibly frustrating to me.  Look through this whole thread for what out back-and-forth had been like up until post #112.  I had in absolute sincerity made an attempt to understand what your beliefs are.  I started with a summary of what I thought your beliefs were.  You then corrected me on a few points, in which case I sincerely apologized for misconstruing you, and I made corrections to my initial summary.  Your next post to me was then to again complain to me for misunderstanding you the first time, which, BTW, I did attempt to explain the source of my misunderstanding.

It's the conversations following that where I am just at a loss.

Your complaint, sometime after my second summary (this post here: http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25104.msg560573.html#msg560573) that:
Quote
Jdawg I've said time and time again I don't believe in the myth of Jesus as you are suggesting.  I only think his existence as a man is likely.

I then asked for clarification where, in my second summation, I implied that you believed in the myth of Jesus or have a personal relationship with him.  You then proceed to quote my first summation and bold the point of contention.  I then pointed you to my second summation, which did not include such discourse, and frankly included no indication, whatsoever, that you accept the biblical myth of Jesus or have a personal relationship with him.  I repost a link to that second summation, which you say you did not miss it.  Yet you continually talk down to me as if I never said any of the words I did in the second summation.

You can yell at me all you want, but the obvious fact, at least in the first 3.5 pages of conversation in this thread, is that I sincerely wanted to understand what you believe.  I don't know if it's just the number of posters that have put their 2 cents in and you're conflating what other people had be saying to you with what I've been saying, but COME.  THE.  FUCK.  ON.  GET OVER THIS PERSECUTION COMPLEX - PLEASE.  It's making me embarrassed for you.

No Jdawg you were not trying to understand me.  You were trying to prove I'm something I'm not.  That is just very irritating to say the least.  Just go back and read the thread.  The only exceptable outcome for you was for me to admit being christian.  You have to claim to be a christian to be a christian. 

You lost this debate.

I have no persecution complex.  I just don't like being told who I am by somebody that doesn't know me; relentlessly.  I wonder how you would handle being called an idiot and a liar by strangers on the web;relentlessly.

If you are sincere please tell me now that you understand I'm not a christian.  I am spiritual not religious.
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Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #152 on: July 16, 2013, 06:18:12 AM »
I use the word God so that all people recognize who I'm talking about.  If I said the bible is a disgrace to The Great Scientist, most religious folk would just say oh well It's God's word.  To say it is a disgrace to God points directly to their God, to all concepts of god.

As far as this Jesus confusion.  I don't know why Jdawg is so confused.  I believe that Jesus could have existed as a man.  I don't believe the embellishments so much.  I do not follow that religion. 

If I was to give God a name that's not God I would call God, Love.  The bible is a disgrace to Love.  I believe in the Power of Love!!!
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #153 on: July 16, 2013, 08:31:58 AM »
No Jdawg you were not trying to understand me.  You were trying to prove I'm something I'm not.  That is just very irritating to say the least.  Just go back and read the thread.  The only exceptable outcome for you was for me to admit being christian.  You have to claim to be a christian to be a christian. 
I struggle to see where, at any point in time in this thread, I ever said you were a Christian.  I went back and read the thread.  I wasn't trying to prove a damn thing.  I was trying to clarify what it is you believe.
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You lost this debate.
Not sure what I was debating.  I certainly didn't have any sort of debate in mind.  I was trying to understand your beliefs.
Quote
I have no persecution complex.  I just don't like being told who I am by somebody that doesn't know me; relentlessly.  I wonder how you would handle being called an idiot and a liar by strangers on the web;relentlessly.
I AM NOT NAM.
Quote
If you are sincere please tell me now that you understand I'm not a christian.  I am spiritual not religious.
Again, not sure where I said you were a Christian.

As far as this Jesus confusion.  I don't know why Jdawg is so confused.  I believe that Jesus could have existed as a man.  I don't believe the embellishments so much.  I do not follow that religion. 
I'm confused because you seem to be so damn adamant about not reading what I say and just assuming I'm attacking you.
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Offline Samothec

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #154 on: July 16, 2013, 02:05:44 PM »
You didn't provide any proof of your claim against me; "I denied using the term  Intelligent Design."   
I never said that and it is dishonest of you to put it in quotes. You used the term Intelligent Design – that was my point – that you used ID instead of saying God/Designer/The Great Scientist. You created the confusion.

Yes, I am avoiding any comment about the libelous statement as I cannot do so without getting very upset.

All confusion should have cleared away as soon as I explained the use of the term. 
But you didn't explain. Several of us repeatedly ask you to explain but instead of explaining you get upset and claim we're putting words in your mouth when the reverse is more accurate.

I did find this upon rereading more of the thread than just our posts addressed to each other:
I swear, I'm speaking of the theory of gods.  People thought of gods before the bible was written.  It was not bible then the idea.
Unfortunately you did not address this to me so I missed it when going back over the posts for my post (#132). And you did not reference the term ID here so when I first read it I didn't not see any connection. So this has been a misunderstanding. I am sorry for my part in it. Please be more careful with your wording as it will stop most of the confusion and questions.[1]

It is downright childish of any of you to continue this insistence of Christianity.  That religion hates me.  They condemn me to hell right above you.  At least you're not an abomination!!!  I would rather be called a whore, slut, scalawag, or an idiot than be put in that box.  You are disregarding a lot of Christian tradition to call me one.
Why do you assume that you are the only one here considered an abomination? You are far from being the only one.
There are a disappointing large number of gays and lesbians who are still Christian. Being hated by their own religion doesn't change the fact that they believe. <<< Please note that I said "they" not "you". I shouldn't have to say that but I feel I need to do so.
 1. but this isn't the first time I've asked you to be more careful with your terminology
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #155 on: July 16, 2013, 03:29:30 PM »
Please reread what I actually wrote. She claimed ID was around before the Bible. I pointed out it wasn't. Then she changed her claim to saying that "gods" were around before the Bible which is true and if she had said that then we wouldn't be having this discussion. But she never did - she never used the term Designer and in fact insisted that she would only use the term "God". Again, read what each of us actually wrote. I'm tired of this and don't like being libeled[1] for which I did report her.
It would also be helpful if she would answer my question in #132 but I am not hopeful about that.
 1. it sounds weird saying that instead of 'slandered' but this is written and not spoken
You're making a much bigger deal out of this whole thing than is necessary.

Think about it.  All you really needed to show was that she was being careless with her terminology.  You did not and do not need to harangue her over her use of the term "Intelligent Design" where she meant "gods".  Certainly not when the likelihood is that she simply conflated ID and gods in her head.  That comes across as nitpicking, and it doesn't help your case.

At this point, it's up to you if you want to keep on with this, but personally, I'd try to let it go.  One of the reasons slander and libel are illegal is because people, who do not know the person being libeled or slandered, might believe these false representations of that person.  Do you think that's going to be the case here, in this forum?  By all means, if you feel she misrepresented you, call her on it, but don't let her get to you.

By the way, screwtape's instructions were to the bickering between Nam and junebug.  I don't think something like this is off-topic,

Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #156 on: July 17, 2013, 06:36:30 AM »


[/nb] what you meant when you were clear the first time around – because you didn't like being told you were wrong--- You repeatedly insisted that you only refer to the creator as 'God' and have never before (in this thread) said "Intelligent Designer".--- Now, I could gather quotes from you proving you wrong here[1]. But I don't feel like wasting all that time since you will try to weasel out of the facts. So, you get to prove you meant 'God' every time you referenced ID (Intelligent Design - not the Designer) being around before the bible. You won't be able to – you will only find that your own words prove you wrong. OR you can show that you are worth talking to by apologizing and admit you were wrong.
 1. Claiming that you meant 'gods' when every time you implied if not directly stated that you meant ID "theory".


I never said this. I asked you for proof and you went rambling off , changing words in my statements, talking about rubbing my nose in it.  Either prove it or apologize please.

Who's weaseling?


I never said that and it is dishonest of you to put it in quotes. You used the term Intelligent Design – that was my point – that you used ID instead of saying God/Designer/The Great Scientist. You created the confusion.

Yes, I am avoiding any comment about the libelous statement as I cannot do so without getting very upset.


But you didn't explain. Several of us repeatedly ask you to explain but instead of explaining you get upset and claim we're putting words in your mouth when the reverse is more accurate.

I did find this upon rereading more of the thread than just our posts addressed to each other:

Unfortunately you did not address this to me so I missed it when going back over the posts for my post (#132). And you did not reference the term ID here so when I first read it I didn't not see any connection. So this has been a misunderstanding. I am sorry for my part in it. Please be more careful with your wording as it will stop most of the confusion and questions.[2]


Why do you assume that you are the only one here considered an abomination? You are far from being the only one.
There are a disappointing large number of gays and lesbians who are still Christian. Being hated by their own religion doesn't change the fact that they believe. <<< Please note that I said "they" not "you". I shouldn't have to say that but I feel I need to do so.
 2. but this isn't the first time I've asked you to be more careful with your terminology

You said it ^^^ it's right up there.  I'm sure there is a post addressed to you with similar subject matter.  That's the reason you gave me the advice then about the terms I was using.  I then explained why I use the terms I use.  It's just your way of saying I'm sorry but it's all your fault. 

I will from now on refer to God as Love.  I hope this can clear up some confusion.  It will take some getting used to. ;)

You know what, I don't care about pies and mud I just want to be accepted for who I am.   You can not criticize my beliefs if you don't understand it.
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Offline jdawg70

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #157 on: July 17, 2013, 09:06:14 AM »
No Jdawg you were not trying to understand me.  You were trying to prove I'm something I'm not.  That is just very irritating to say the least.  Just go back and read the thread.  The only exceptable outcome for you was for me to admit being christian.  You have to claim to be a christian to be a christian. 
I struggle to see where, at any point in time in this thread, I ever said you were a Christian.  I went back and read the thread.  I wasn't trying to prove a damn thing.  I was trying to clarify what it is you believe.
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You lost this debate.
Not sure what I was debating.  I certainly didn't have any sort of debate in mind.  I was trying to understand your beliefs.
Quote
I have no persecution complex.  I just don't like being told who I am by somebody that doesn't know me; relentlessly.  I wonder how you would handle being called an idiot and a liar by strangers on the web;relentlessly.
I AM NOT NAM.
Quote
If you are sincere please tell me now that you understand I'm not a christian.  I am spiritual not religious.
Again, not sure where I said you were a Christian.

As far as this Jesus confusion.  I don't know why Jdawg is so confused.  I believe that Jesus could have existed as a man.  I don't believe the embellishments so much.  I do not follow that religion. 
I'm confused because you seem to be so damn adamant about not reading what I say and just assuming I'm attacking you.

You smited me for this post, claiming that I've been insisting that you are a Christian.

I...I dunno.  I'm at a complete loss.  There just appears to be a massive disparity between what I think I'm saying to you and what you think I'm saying to you.

My level of frustration at this point is high enough where it is getting difficult for me to look at our conversation here objectively.  If the cause of the disparity is primarily on my end, I'm going to need someone to point it out to me.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #158 on: July 17, 2013, 10:16:59 AM »
...
You know what, I don't care about pies and mud I just want to be accepted for who I am.   You can not criticize my beliefs if you don't understand it.

Look, June, it is obvious that people are not understanding your beliefs. I don't know why but I think it is some confusion over Jesus and the NT. So, to save any more confusion, could you state, simply, what your beliefs are and then we might be able to rescue this thread. 

Thanks
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Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #159 on: July 17, 2013, 03:20:03 PM »
...
You know what, I don't care about pies and mud I just want to be accepted for who I am.   You can not criticize my beliefs if you don't understand it.

Look, June, it is obvious that people are not understanding your beliefs. I don't know why but I think it is some confusion over Jesus and the NT. So, to save any more confusion, could you state, simply, what your beliefs are and then we might be able to rescue this thread. 

Thanks

Well it ain't because I haven't explained them enough already.  There is absolutely nothing confusing about I am not a christian, Is there?
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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #160 on: July 17, 2013, 03:21:55 PM »
There wouldn't be, but when you've also given the impression that you believe in a divine Christ, it's hard to reconcile that with "not Christian".

Can you see how some people would find that confusing?
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #161 on: July 17, 2013, 03:38:55 PM »
...
You know what, I don't care about pies and mud I just want to be accepted for who I am.   You can not criticize my beliefs if you don't understand it.

Look, June, it is obvious that people are not understanding your beliefs. I don't know why but I think it is some confusion over Jesus and the NT. So, to save any more confusion, could you state, simply, what your beliefs are and then we might be able to rescue this thread. 

Thanks

Well it ain't because I haven't explained them enough already.  There is absolutely nothing confusing about I am not a Christian, Is there?

Ah, June, that's what you don't believe. I'm asking exactly what you do believe. It is not clear to me, and other I suspect, which god you believe in, whether Jesus has something to do with your belief etc. Please make it easy for us and say juts what you actually believe, please.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #162 on: July 17, 2013, 04:09:13 PM »
Well it ain't because I haven't explained them enough already.  There is absolutely nothing confusing about I am not a christian, Is there?
A Muslim, a Jew, a Hindu, a Shinto Buddhist, or a member of any of the other dozens of religions out there could also say that they were not a Christian, and it would be absolutely true - but it would not help people determine what they did believe.

Also, the fact that you talk about things that resonate with Christianity (like Jesus Christ himself, like "God is Love", and so on), doesn't make it any easier to figure out what you do believe.

My suggestion is that you assume nobody here has ever heard of your own particular religion (or if you prefer, belief system) and attempt to describe it in terms of what you believe.

Offline Samothec

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #163 on: July 17, 2013, 06:06:33 PM »
junebug72,
...prove it ...
Okay:
I could call my interpretation of this power, The Great Scientist.  I don't believe The Great Scientist willed anything into existence but built it with the elements of the universe and an endless supply of intelligence.  I like "God" better so I'm sticking with that. 

I took you at your word - that you would only be using the term God. In other discussions here you used the term Intelligent Design which refers to the theory that the Designer made the universe billions of years ago and set up evolution but guided things.[1] When you used the term ID you made some incorrect claims which I pointed out. You then claimed you meant to say "god" instead of ID. When I went back the first time just looking at our replies to each other, I found no support for your claim making it false so I said that. Upon further reading I found in a post not addressed to me that you had indirectly sort of corrected yourself. So I offered the only apology I owe you. You have not even done that much for me.


jdawg70,
The disparity is not on your end.


jaimehlers,
One of the reasons slander and libel are illegal is because people, who do not know the person being libeled or slandered, might believe these false representations of that person.  Do you think that's going to be the case here, in this forum? 
I have no idea. People defended her. There was a neutral statement but I was taught not to see those as supportive.

I was going to stop but I made the mistake of coming back to this thread again.
 1. A quick crappy description of ID
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 07:10:31 PM by Samothec »
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #164 on: July 18, 2013, 06:33:52 AM »
junebug72,
...prove it ...
Okay:
I could call my interpretation of this power, The Great Scientist.  I don't believe The Great Scientist willed anything into existence but built it with the elements of the universe and an endless supply of intelligence.  I like "God" better so I'm sticking with that. 

I took you at your word - that you would only be using the term God. In other discussions here you used the term Intelligent Design which refers to the theory that the Designer made the universe billions of years ago and set up evolution but guided things.[1] When you used the term ID you made some incorrect claims which I pointed out. You then claimed you meant to say "god" instead of ID. When I went back the first time just looking at our replies to each other, I found no support for your claim making it false so I said that. Upon further reading I found in a post not addressed to me that you had indirectly sort of corrected yourself. So I offered the only apology I owe you. You have not even done that much for me.


jdawg70,
The disparity is not on your end.


jaimehlers,
One of the reasons slander and libel are illegal is because people, who do not know the person being libeled or slandered, might believe these false representations of that person.  Do you think that's going to be the case here, in this forum? 
I have no idea. People defended her. There was a neutral statement but I was taught not to see those as supportive.

I was going to stop but I made the mistake of coming back to this thread again.

 1. A quick crappy description of ID

Still tap dancing.  I do not owe you an apology.  I have done you no wrong.  Using terms that you understand to mean something besides what I mean them to does not warrant an apology.  I did clarify my use of the terms in question. 

I never gave you my word God was the only term I would use.  You still haven't proven anything.  You can't there's nothing there.  That's why I will not apologize to you.  I have done you no wrong.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #165 on: July 18, 2013, 06:48:50 AM »
There wouldn't be, but when you've also given the impression that you believe in a divine Christ, it's hard to reconcile that with "not Christian".

Can you see how some people would find that confusing?
See this is the problem with words.  Use that word divine and you misrepresent what I have told you.  Why can't anybody here understand the difference in believing Jesus was a HUMAN not a demi god.  It is my interpretation of the story.  Nothing more.  It's not that complicated.  There's a lot more to me that what I believe about Jesus.  If i was a proclaimed christian y'all just call me a hypocrite and a fool. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #166 on: July 18, 2013, 07:57:29 AM »
Still tap dancing.  I do not owe you an apology.  I have done you no wrong.  Using terms that you understand to mean something besides what I mean them to does not warrant an apology.  I did clarify my use of the terms in question. 

I never gave you my word God was the only term I would use.  You still haven't proven anything.  You can't there's nothing there.  That's why I will not apologize to you.  I have done you no wrong.
You know how this makes you sound?  It makes you sound like someone who cares about her reputation more than about doing the right thing, and frankly, that makes you look like a jerk who isn't even worth the time of day.  Like it or not, you've been fairly inconsistent in this regard and others - for example, in actually describing your beliefs so that other people here can figure out what you are rather than what you're not, not just in how you refer to God.  You've talked about God, you've talked about ID (in terms of God), you've talked about the Great Scientist, and now you're talking about Love (in terms of God).  Small wonder that people are starting to lose patience with you when you can't even keep things straight in your own writing.

Whether or not you owe Samothec an apology, you should give him one anyway, simply because it's the right thing to do regardless of who's at fault.  You know how quickly that would have defused the situation, if you had simply apologized for your inconsistency in terms you used?  Instead, you reacted as if you were being challenged and attempted to smack him down.  And now you need to apologize for that too.

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #167 on: July 18, 2013, 08:02:35 AM »
Why can't anybody here understand the difference in believing Jesus was a HUMAN not a demi god.

We can.  It is a pretty simple idea.  Perhaps you have not communicated as effectively as you thought?  Have you come right out and used those words?  I know frequently people here jump the gun, make assumptions or just do a bad job of reading.  But it is also true that people - everyone, myself included - do a less than adequated job expressing themselves as well. 

That is a universal problem with attempting to communicate.  The communicator may think she's communicated exactly what she intends, and the person hearing it may think she perfectly understands.  But they can still be completely out of synch.
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Offline Samothec

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #168 on: July 18, 2013, 04:22:35 PM »
Junebug has indeed said before, and fairly clearly, that she only admires Jesus as a human being and not as the Christ. It is one of the few things she has been clear about. Although she has also said something along the lines of her having a relationship with Jesus which only confuses the issue a bit. IIRC both are earlier in this thread.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Online xyzzy

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #169 on: July 18, 2013, 07:37:27 PM »
Junebug, it would be so helpful if you could just start from the beginning and explain what it is that you do believe. Right now, with all the back and forth, it's difficult to put it all together and the misunderstandings are likely to proliferate.

Also, let me suggest that you take a moment to define terms that might be misunderstood. For example, when most hear of a god - particularly when coupled with words referring to the bible, or Jesus, intelligent design, "Love", etc - it's just not possible to know that you have a understanding that isn't represented in those "traditional" views. So, for example, how about: "Well, I believe that god <insert JB beliefs>". Now, by god, I don't mean the god of the bible but...". Or, perhaps you do, but your belief in Yahweh stems from something else? I really can't tell. So If so, perhaps you could elucidate that origin?

Another thing that would really help your case is how you got from where you were to where you are now. Yes, you've said some of that, but by putting it one place we can all move on from there. For example, if I understood correctly, you used to believe that god Yahweh? hated you for being gay. Now you believe the exact opposite. But is that the same god, or is it some other god, or is this just some concept called god for convenience, or maybe you are not even sure of which it is?

Now this is not a criticism of you in particular, but maybe because you've never really had to elucidate your beliefs to such a critical audience, it might be that you aren't really that clear on how best to communicate this or, indeed, how your audience perceives your words. This is really common in many fields; often it's only when we have to explain things to a group of non-peers that we realise we don't actually have a coherent verbal explanation, even if we do so "internally". That's why defining or clarifying your terms in order to anticipate some of the questions really helps to get your audience on the right track.

OK this is much longer than I intended but I'm trying to be clear and, hopefully, helpful. Finally, it really does seem as if people want to understand your beliefs. So please. Start again from the beginning.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 07:44:11 PM by xyzzy »
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy

Offline The Gawd

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #170 on: July 18, 2013, 07:57:06 PM »
And also can you explain how you came your conclusions about Jesus? You referenced before his "teachings" and "sacrifice"

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #171 on: July 18, 2013, 08:40:05 PM »
FYI - junebug is having cancer surgery today from what she has said in another thread - you might not hear from her for a bit

http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,24999.msg563241.html#msg563241
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 08:42:30 PM by neopagan »
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline junebug72

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #172 on: July 19, 2013, 05:22:40 AM »
I am Spiritual not Religious.  It means I believe in a creator not religion.  I believe in LOVE.

It's that simple.

GOT LOVE?
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Online xyzzy

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Re: The Bible is a disgrace to God!!!
« Reply #173 on: July 19, 2013, 05:56:57 AM »
I am Spiritual not Religious.  It means I believe in a creator not religion.  I believe in LOVE.

It's that simple.

GOT LOVE?

Junebug, not it's not that simple. At least not to me. Perhaps you didn't get a chance to read some of the later posts, but the intention in asking you to explain what you believe deliberately avoided words such as religion and Christianity. I'm trying but I really do not understand what you believe any better than before.

These are not trick questions but what does "I believe in a creator" mean? Just that and absolutely and completely nothing else - somewhat akin to a deist position?

Somehow, though, I think you have more to offer.

Seriously, who, what, why, how, when? Is it still active, is it intercessory, how do you communicate if at all? Again, how did your beliefs evolve from your previous position to what they are now? Did you consider yourself a Christian at that time? Neopagan observed that you reference Jesus. What is your source, and your views on that person? I think it's that he was a preacher but not necessarily divine but I'm trying really hard to understand you from the perspective of a clean slate. It's been said before, but if it's the case, "I don't know" is an acceptable and honest answer.

Again, I'm suggesting that you start afresh without the confusion that keeps being related to earlier comments (that's an observation without suggestion of blame to any party). I can't see a better way for us all to escape this current confusion and this is coming from someone who hasn't attacked you or characterized you in a negative manner.

You mention "Love". Perhaps your experience is as much, or even more, visceral than it is explained in concept and words?

Really, I don't want to labor the point but I'm genuinely asking you to start again so that you can expand upon your beliefs. I understand that you've had somewhat of a rough time here, and that's why I'm trying to find a line between putting words in your mouth and suggesting concepts that might better explain your position. Personally, I wouldn't have spent so long crafting these posts if all I wanted to do was to snipe at someone.

Please, take some time to give as full of an answer as you can. You're here, please let us give you the opportunity to educate us on your beliefs. Please. Pretty please? And of course, best wishes for your speedy recovery.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 06:00:48 AM by xyzzy »
The first principle is that you must not fool yourself - and you are the easiest person to fool -- Richard Feynman
You are in a maze of twisty little religions, all alike -- xyzzy