Author Topic: Christian Conservative Apologists At Their Best!  (Read 558 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Online Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11399
  • Darwins +272/-76
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Christian Conservative Apologists At Their Best!
« on: June 21, 2013, 11:02:52 PM »
"If we could kill babies today: we would!, it'd be the moral thing to do."

And they call us immoral.

-Nam

Offline idontknow

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 75
  • Darwins +2/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a Christian. BA 2008, MPA 2010, JD 2013.
Re: Christian Conservative Apologists At Their Best!
« Reply #1 on: July 22, 2013, 12:42:21 AM »
I don't get it. Where's that quote coming from? It's not in the linked article.
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - Acts 16:31 (NKJV)

"A page of history is worth a volume of logic." Oliver Wendell Holmes, New York Trust Co. v. Eisner, 256 U.S. 345, 349 (1921)

Online Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11399
  • Darwins +272/-76
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Christian Conservative Apologists At Their Best!
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2013, 01:10:55 AM »
I don't get it. Where's that quote coming from? It's not in the linked article.

It's a paraphrase of their stance.

-Nam

Offline idontknow

  • Student
  • **
  • Posts: 75
  • Darwins +2/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm a Christian. BA 2008, MPA 2010, JD 2013.
Re: Christian Conservative Apologists At Their Best!
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2013, 01:13:11 AM »
I don't get it. Where's that quote coming from? It's not in the linked article.

It's a paraphrase of their stance.

-Nam

Seems like a poor attempt. Could you explain how you came to that conclusion?
"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved" - Acts 16:31 (NKJV)

"A page of history is worth a volume of logic." Oliver Wendell Holmes, New York Trust Co. v. Eisner, 256 U.S. 345, 349 (1921)

Offline neopagan

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1161
  • Darwins +86/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: Christian Conservative Apologists At Their Best!
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2013, 08:38:27 AM »
I would like to hear the response of the author of the article to why he feels radical mooslims killing infidels for allah is different than hebrews killing canaanites in the name of their just god?

from the article:
Quote
Canaanite culture and religion in the second millennium B.C. were polluted, corrupt, and perverted. No doubt the people were physically diseased from their illicit behavior. There simply was no viable solution to their condition except destruction. Their moral depravity was “full” (Genesis 15:16). They had slumped to such an immoral, depraved state, with no hope of recovery, that their existence on this Earth had to be terminated—just like in Noah’s day when God waited while Noah preached for years, but was unable to turn the world’s population from its wickedness (Genesis 6:3,5-7; 1 Peter 3:20; 2 Peter 3:5-9).
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Online jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4288
  • Darwins +441/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Christian Conservative Apologists At Their Best!
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2013, 09:32:33 AM »
What Nam means is that if the Christian apologetic who wrote that article truly believed that God were to command believers to commit genocide (murdering entire populations, down to infants and babies) today, they should do it.  Their rationale is that God is perfect, therefore anything he commands is innately justified.  Worshipers don't even have to think about it, because God already did.

He also came up with the tiresome misrepresentation of atheism/skepticism/liberalism as being based on nothing but personal preference, whereas God is 'objective' and therefore anyone who acknowledges an 'objective' standard is implicitly acknowledging God.  Frankly, this isn't even good sophistry.

Basically, this is the tactic of the apologetic - rationalizing away the actions of God in the Old Testament to give Christians the justification for obeying a god who countenanced the slaughter of innocent children due to purely arbitrary standards of morality.  In short, the Hebrews did not act based on some perfect moral standard, they acted based on their own standards which they attributed to YHWH.
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

Online Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11399
  • Darwins +272/-76
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Christian Conservative Apologists At Their Best!
« Reply #6 on: July 24, 2013, 10:21:31 PM »
I don't get it. Where's that quote coming from? It's not in the linked article.

It's a paraphrase of their stance.

-Nam

Seems like a poor attempt. Could you explain how you came to that conclusion?

By reading the article.

-Nam

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1528
  • Darwins +61/-76
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
Re: Christian Conservative Apologists At Their Best!
« Reply #7 on: July 25, 2013, 09:00:06 AM »
That article is a disgrace to God, IMO.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine
Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Online jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4288
  • Darwins +441/-11
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Christian Conservative Apologists At Their Best!
« Reply #8 on: July 25, 2013, 09:38:44 AM »
Another problem with that article is that it takes what's written in the Bible about the Canaanites as the literal truth.  It would be as if people today were to take the stereotypes portrayed of Japanese during WWII (or Germans during WWI and WWII) as totally accurate.

What it actually is, is history/propaganda written by the winners.  Extremely common through history, with no real concern for getting the facts straight.  Using Hebrew propaganda about Canaanites to justify their mass slaughter by said Hebrews is disgusting, to say the least.
Worldviews:  Everyone has one, everyone believes them to be an accurate view of the world, and everyone ends up at least partially wrong.  However, some worldviews are stronger and well-supported, while others are so bizarre that they make no sense to anyone else.

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1548
  • Darwins +157/-14
  • Gender: Male
  • Belief is not a choice.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Christian Conservative Apologists At Their Best!
« Reply #9 on: July 25, 2013, 12:11:55 PM »
Quote
"However, if one cares to examine the circumstances and assess the rationale, the Bible consistently exonerates itself by offering legitimate clarification and explanation to satisfy the honest searcher of truth."

Bbbullshit! "Examine the circumstances and 'assess the rationale'"?? REALLY? For a P.h.D, Dr. Miller is quite credulous (to no surprise). Is there ANY circumstance (EVER) when it is morally OK to tear babies from their mother's womb's, torture children with fire (for eternity), or commit genocide/infanticide? As with most religionists, Miller's article demonstrates that he has completely missed what morality is all about (human well being). 

Quote
"God’s vengeance is not like the impulsive, irrational, emotional outbursts of pagan deities or human beings."

WRONG. Yes it is, just read the bible "in context" (without the bias toward confirmation) and you'll see that quite easily. This statement stems from the basic false presupposition that the bible ought to be interpreted favorably in all cases - and that idea stems from the a priori assumption that the bible is the inspired "word of God". Intellectual hypocrisy, it seems, has no bounds with religious people.

Quote
"The atheist and agnostic have absolutely no platform on which to stand to make moral or ethical distinctions—except as the result of purely personal taste."

100% wrong again.

Morality is about human well being, period. Thus, we have plenty to "stand on" and SAY about that because human well being is quantifiable (at the very least in a general sense and in practical application). The minute a Christian (or other religionist) starts talking about anything other than human well being, they are no longer talking about morality. Thus, this statement is not only false, it is just plain uninformed and silly.


Quote
"The facts of the matter are that the Canaanites, whom God’s people were to destroy, were destroyed for their wickedness..."

Really? So humans (at the command of "the Lord") didn't do the killing, this killing machine called "wickedness" did it? Yet again, another silly rationalization in an attempt to rescue an absurd and immoral bronze age belief system.

Quote
"There simply was no viable solution to their condition except destruction. Their moral depravity was “full” (Genesis 15:16). They had slumped to such an immoral, depraved state, with no hope of recovery, that their existence on this Earth had to be terminated—just like in Noah’s day..."

So where is this destruction now? Why isn't Yahweh killing babies today? The population has grown substantially since then and there is obviously far greater amounts of "immorality". If your deity isn't doing what he supposedly did in the OT (commanding genocide of "evil" people) then he must want this immorality to be taking place.

Or what about the better interpretation that it's just superstition altogether? You Christians believe all of the other religions are superstition (or false), except yours. Interesting isn't it, that you just so happen to have been born into the right religion (while billions were born into the wrong one). That you can't see the problem with that is itself the problem.

Quote
"Such people [atheists/"liberals"/etc] simply cannot see the rightness of evildoers being punished by execution or physical pain."

Oh the double standard! So, it is somehow "righteous" to smash little babies heads against rocks (Psalm 137:9), kill homosexuals (Leviticus 20), stone unruly children (Deuteronomy 21), or kill your own child (Judges 11) but if a woman claims God told her to do it today it's not OK??

Christians inherently know these things are immoral, detestable, and vile. Yet they rationalize it out of fear - again b/c they have assumed the bible is the word of God in advance (which of course is no different from superstition).

Quote
"The Bible provides the only logical, sensible, meaningful, consistent explanation regarding the principles of retribution, punishment, and the conditions under which physical life may be extinguished."

100% FALSE again.

The bible (specifically the first 5 books) provides sick, disgusting, vile, and immoral standards by which to live. Only a moral monster (like John Wayne Gacie, Pol Pot, or Joseph Stalin) would make up such nonsense. There is nothing "sensible" about stoning little children (regardless of the deeds of their parents), homosexuals, or disobedient kids.

This article is yet another example of how Christians invent their own version of Christianity BEFORE reading the bible, and then read into the text what they want it to say (because discovering it's false is unacceptable).

« Last Edit: July 25, 2013, 12:15:48 PM by median »
"A casual stroll through the lunatic asylum shows that faith does not prove anything." Friedrich Nietzsche

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3745
  • Darwins +238/-6
  • Gender: Male
Re: Christian Conservative Apologists At Their Best!
« Reply #10 on: July 25, 2013, 03:38:33 PM »
With a title like this, I was half expecting a picture of some graves
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.