Author Topic: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!  (Read 8684 times)

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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #232 on: January 12, 2014, 01:30:02 AM »
I think we are talking about impalement as in a pole possibly as large as a mans leg or only a mans wrist being shoved into a persons anal cavity.

I'm not even trying to dispute instant death vs long slow death If that's what you think I mean. I am saying that impalement is not something you walk away from no matter how slow you die, you still die. As for capital punishment, my position is just as we do it today, you are sent to die. If it didn't work the first time, kill 'em again! Either way you still die.
Naturally, someone who's been impaled would need outside help to get free, just as someone who's been crucified would.  If they stay on the impaling spike or on the cross, they're not going to survive - if nothing else, lack of food or water would do them in.  My point is that you can take someone off of an impaling spike or a cross, and they have a chance of surviving.

Quote from: harbinger77
You offer cases of lets call it "horizontal impalement" I don't disagree these are amazing cases. The Human body can take a lot of damage. I've seen it first hand in Iraq. seriously though. I'm still waiting for evidence of ANY crucifixion survival. survival meaning lived to tell grand kids the story. NOT survival as in it took 2-3 days to die. This impalement thing seems less likely to me though.
You didn't even read that first link I put, did you?  It was a man who fell on top of a metal pole, had it rammed through his anus and up out of his chest on the other side.  It was not "horizontal impalement".  I purposefully skipped multiple other cases of someone being impaled in the way you describe because I knew you would claim it wasn't the same thing...and now you're trying to dismiss this without even reading it[1]?  I don't think so.

By the way, Josephus, a Jewish chronicler at the time of the Romans, wrote how he came across three people, acquaintances of his, who had been crucified.  He went to talk to the leader of the Roman camp where this was happening, and the man commanded that they be taken down.  Two of them died anyway, one survived.  So, are you going to continue to claim that someone cannot survive being crucified or impaled, even though I've cited actual examples of someone surviving both, or are you willing to admit that you were wrong here?
 1. If you had read it, you would not have tried to claim it was a "horizontal impalement" - they have an x-ray picture showing how he was impaled.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #233 on: January 12, 2014, 01:47:47 AM »
I'm willing to admit I didn't read your link I thought your original description was from the link. I read it wrong. I was wrong people in modern times can survive impalement. especially if the pole is 1/2" electrical conduit.

Ancient times it was a mans wrist to a mans thigh in width. While this case is amazing It could be better. I was still wrong though. impalement goes to the atheist.

I see no supporting links for the 3 friends of the historian story. I'm still curious what would have happened to the third man if they wrapped him in a cloth and tossed him in a sealed tomb for three days with no food, water, or medical attention?
Citation still needed
« Last Edit: January 12, 2014, 02:03:56 AM by harbinger77 »
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #234 on: January 12, 2014, 02:50:18 AM »
I'm willing to admit I didn't read your link I thought your original description was from the link. I read it wrong. I was wrong people in modern times can survive impalement. especially if the pole is 1/2" electrical conduit.
I'd be careful here - this is awfully close to moving the goalposts (ad hoc fallacy).  It's where a person tries to make exceptions so they can continue believing what they already believed, even though other people have provided specific counterexamples.

Quote from: harbinger77
Ancient times it was a mans wrist to a mans thigh in width. While this case is amazing It could be better. I was still wrong though. impalement goes to the atheist.
Thank you, but I do not consider myself an atheist.  I don't consider myself religious either.  I post here because I learn things.

Quote from: harbinger77
I see no supporting links for the 3 friends of the historian story.
Most historians consider Flavius Josephus (born Josephus ben Mattathias) to be pretty well authoritative.  You can easily find copies of his writings (the War of the Jews and the Antiquities of the Jews) online, as well as information about him personally.  As far as corroboration of that particular bit of writing goes, we simply don't have much writing from that time period.  But since it's reasonable to conclude that someone let down from a cross could survive, there's no particular reason to disallow it.

Quote from: harbinger77
I'm still curious what would have happened to the third man if they wrapped him in a cloth and tossed him in a sealed tomb for three days with no food, water, or medical attention?
Citation still needed
I don't think anyone has ever tried that experiment, nor do I think anyone is likely to.  I'll certainly acknowledge that the chances of surviving would (probably) be fairly small, but I don't think it would be impossible to survive.  I simply don't know for sure, so I'm not willing to make any definitive claims about it.

I have a question for you, though.  Can you cite any sources that support what was written in the Bible?  Considering that the Bible wasn't written down until decades after the fact, we don't actually know for sure who wrote the books, and we don't have the original manuscripts either, I hope you understand that it isn't an unimpeachable source - no matter what that verse in 2 Timothy claims.  Imagine if someone wrote in a book, "this book is true and describes what really happened".  You would want another source besides the book which supported what was written in it, right?

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #235 on: January 12, 2014, 05:33:44 PM »
Quote from: jaimehlers
where a person tries to make exceptions so they can continue believing what they already believed,

I'm only saying, and I'm sure you would agree, that to read a story of a guy impaled on a telephone pole and surviving would simply be more impressive. For that to have happened 1000 or even 500 years ago would also be more impressive. None the less I concede.
Quote
I do not consider myself an atheist. I don't consider myself religious

Off topic a bit. you're agnostic? If not agnostic and your definition of "religious" being obviously theist. How do you define Atheist?

Quote
Most historians consider Flavius Josephus (born Josephus ben Mattathias) to be pretty well authoritative. You can easily find copies of his writings

But since it's reasonable to conclude
that someone let down from a cross could survive, there's no particular reason to disallow it.
Are you suggesting I do your homework for you? This has never gone over well when I have suggested the same.

I agree to a point. Crucifixion was a capital punishment. When a criminal is ordered to a death the judge would say something like "..... shall be hung by the neck until death."  Death being the goal. Not the speed of death.
There was an American man (I'll cite if requested) He survived the electric chair. No one knew what to do with him. He was taken back to his cell. A pardon was requested because his sentence to the chair had been carried out. It was later ruled that the sentence was to death and he was sent back to the chair. Where he died. This, I'm sure, is THE reason no one would walk away from a Roman Crucifixion. Sentenced to die WILL result in death.

Quote
Can you cite any sources that support what was written in the Bible?
I think it would help if you narrowed the field a bit. Is there a certain event. I'm assuming crucifixion. Is there another? This is not a dodge. Just a request for clarity.

Quote
Imagine if someone wrote in a book, "this book is true and describes what really happened". You would
want another source besides the book which supported what was written in it, right?

Sure I would. My question  to you is would you do your own research and find proof for yourself, or just listen to some random dude spout off about how there is none and just believe him... on faith as some do? If there were two groups those who say yes and those who say no.. would you listen to both sides Before coming down on one side? Considering that an element of this evidence could well be archeology, would you continue to listen to the yes guys and look at evidence they submit with an open mind?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #236 on: January 13, 2014, 12:57:45 AM »
Quote
Can you cite any sources that support what was written in the Bible?

I thought this was a good start especially for all those who say Jesus wasn't even a real person...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

What else would you like?
« Last Edit: January 13, 2014, 01:05:05 AM by harbinger77 »
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #237 on: January 13, 2014, 03:10:56 AM »
^^ How about something you can actually cite?  There's no reason, given your record, to assume that you've even read the page you linked to.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #238 on: January 13, 2014, 05:54:46 AM »
<snip>What ever happened to that 2 day comma comment too? I had a reply for it but I lost the post in the shuffle...

I replied.

A coma can last from between a few hours to a few years.

Death from dehydration can occur in a few days, especially in a hot country.

Basically, if a person didn't recover from their coma in a few days in the 1st century middle east they wouldn't recover at all.



Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #239 on: January 13, 2014, 05:14:31 PM »
This gruesome discussion is way off the rails. Impalement?  :o

Fact: If a guy really, truly and with believable documentation was killed dead by the authorities, and then magically came back to life, it would have been NEWS. You would not have been able to keep it a secret. The news would have spread like crazy from the Middle East to China, and from Egypt to the entire Roman Empire. It would have been more like the first "Ripley's Believe it or Not" story, and would be recorded everywhere there were any kind of records kept.[1]

Fact: We would not have to try to find accounts from different cultures, and always fail. It would be the resounding story everywhere in all the ancient world! It is not, it is missing in action, it is not found anywhere outside the bible, and this written years after the fact. This really happened and yet the Roman Empire had to have political meetings 300 years later to decide what they thought about it? You would think this would raise a bit of suspicion in Christian circles. Anything else is special pleading.

Fact: People in ancient times dating back to the Sumerian and Babylonians--bureaucrats, historians, nosy parkers-- wrote down all kinds of trivia, and kept all kinds of records. But this Jesus event (and all the other magical bible miracles, for that matter) somehow missed the cut.[2]

Fact: Meanwhile, we have papyrus scrolls detailing the fluctuating depth of the Nile, cuneiforms on who paid their taxes on time, stone tablet grocery lists and thread knots describing the sighting of random meteors. But we are supposed to think that none of the bible miracles, not even the Jesus one, got recorded at the time, not anywhere? By anyone? Really? Why? Because there was some bigger news that knocked it off the front pages/stone slabs?

What African or Chinese or Indian town crier, gossip or scribe would ignore the biggest news story of all time in favor of the equivalent of another farm report? Ignoring Jesus' resurrection would be like bumping the 9/11 terrorist attack off the front page to make room for a story about a local strip mall opening.  On 9/11.

Not. Possible.

Fact: Religions had stories of magical births, miracle recoveries and mystery deaths all the time. Hinduism has several about every god. Myths, we call them today. But an actual factual news account with sources that would pass muster at a modern junior high journalism class? Not so much.  So no surprise that other religious groups were not too impressed by yet another story about yet another culture's god rising from the dead.
 1.  It's like people saying there are aliens beaming around abducting people all the time--but the government (although supposedly incompetent at everything else) has managed to keep it a secret.
 2. And this is supposed to be the all-powerfullest god at work. He must have wanted to stay hidden, a spy with a trench coat and big floppy fedora. God Garbo, in a frilly negligee, just wanted to be alone.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #240 on: January 13, 2014, 06:19:27 PM »
I'm only saying, and I'm sure you would agree, that to read a story of a guy impaled on a telephone pole and surviving would simply be more impressive. For that to have happened 1000 or even 500 years ago would also be more impressive. None the less I concede.
Well, I'd want to get independent verification of it first - preferably from one of the guy's worst enemies, because he'd be likely to understate things instead of overstate them.

Quote from: harbinger77
Off topic a bit. you're agnostic? If not agnostic and your definition of "religious" being obviously theist. How do you define Atheist?
I'm apathetic about theism, at least when it comes to what a person believes for themselves, or what they believe with other like-minded believers.  It's the fact that religious theists tend to cause problems for non-believers (whether they are believers in another religion or atheists) that I take exception to.

Quote from: harbinger77
Are you suggesting I do your homework for you? This has never gone over well when I have suggested the same.
No, I mean that it's incredibly easy to find his writings online, to the point where you could Google "Josephus Antiquities" and you'd trip over the pages and pages of translations that would show up as search results.  If you're interested in that time period, he's worth reading regardless of anything else - because he covers a lot of the interactions between the Jews and the Romans.

Quote from: harbinger77
I agree to a point. Crucifixion was a capital punishment. When a criminal is ordered to a death the judge would say something like "..... shall be hung by the neck until death."  Death being the goal. Not the speed of death.
There was an American man (I'll cite if requested) He survived the electric chair. No one knew what to do with him. He was taken back to his cell. A pardon was requested because his sentence to the chair had been carried out. It was later ruled that the sentence was to death and he was sent back to the chair. Where he died. This, I'm sure, is THE reason no one would walk away from a Roman Crucifixion. Sentenced to die WILL result in death.
This is true - though, as I'm sure you're aware, it does support my point that some people can survive experiences that should be lethal.  Also, something you should be aware of is that we take more care to ensure that people sentenced to execution actually die.  It is also not easy to tell that someone in a coma is actually alive, especially if you aren't trained in medicine.  If someone went into a shock-induced coma due to such an experience, they could conceivably come out of it some time later, perhaps even after they were buried.

Quote from: harbinger77
I think it would help if you narrowed the field a bit. Is there a certain event. I'm assuming crucifixion. Is there another? This is not a dodge. Just a request for clarity.
The crucifixion and resurrection would be good.  I can't think of any others off of the top of my head.

Quote from: harbinger77
Sure I would. My question  to you is would you do your own research and find proof for yourself, or just listen to some random dude spout off about how there is none and just believe him... on faith as some do? If there were two groups those who say yes and those who say no.. would you listen to both sides Before coming down on one side? Considering that an element of this evidence could well be archeology, would you continue to listen to the yes guys and look at evidence they submit with an open mind?
I often research things that I'm not sure about.  There's little point in being a skeptic if you just blindly listen to whatever happens to fit what you already believe.  But you also have to be willing to acknowledge that you might be wrong to begin with.

Online wheels5894

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #241 on: January 14, 2014, 05:11:47 AM »
Quote
Can you cite any sources that support what was written in the Bible?

I thought this was a good start especially for all those who say Jesus wasn't even a real person...

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historicity_of_Jesus

What else would you like?

Have you done any research in the area of the historical Jesus, Harbinger, or are you just giving us a web page to read?  The fact is that, despite a vast body of published work on the subject, we are still really down to the bible as the only source of information about Jesus. Thus it is a matter of judgment whether what we read is actual history or not. There's no way to prove it either way and no supporting documents.

This comes down to belief - if you believe in Jesus, then you accept the historicity of the gospels and that's it.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)