Author Topic: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!  (Read 6201 times)

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Offline Backspace

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #29 on: December 20, 2013, 02:40:27 PM »
As an unsaved individual I'm sorry but you can't get it
it's all foolishness to those who are perishing. discernment is something you pray for. Unless you plan on hitting your knees and having a conversation with God... You will never understand.

I have a brother and sister who are both knee-hitting, arm-waiving Christians, and their understanding of the Bible is no more informed than mine as an atheist.



There is no opinion so absurd that a preacher could not express it.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2013, 02:59:04 PM »
Unless you plan on hitting your knees and having a conversation with God... You will never understand.

No, actually, if you base your reality on hitting your knees, you won't ever understand anything. You will just think you do. Which is not now, nor has it ever been, the same thing.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Ataraxia

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #31 on: December 20, 2013, 03:05:44 PM »
biased absolutely! narrow minded concerning God? Yes sir!

...and this is something to be proud of, why?
"God is a comedian playing to an audience too afraid to laugh." - Voltaire

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #32 on: December 20, 2013, 03:06:19 PM »
biased absolutely! narrow minded concerning God? Yes sir!
Then why should anyone bother to pay attention to you, if you're so totally biased?  You are really no different than someone who's absolutely biased and narrow-minded concerning black people - totally convinced of your own rectitude and the rightness of what you believe, and totally unwilling to discuss the subject (except when you get to lecture other people about it), let alone listening to what someone else has to say.  It's a waste of both your time and ours.

Quote from: harbinger77
As an unsaved individual I'm sorry but you can't get it
Excuses don't help your case any, I'm afraid.

Quote from: harbinger77
it's all foolishness to those who are perishing. discernment is something you pray for. Unless you plan on hitting your knees and having a conversation with God... You will never understand.
Irrelevant.  If your god actually exists, then there is no reason he couldn't strike up a conversation with an atheist - offering excuses like "discernment is something you pray for" is silly.

Quote from: harbinger77
as for the pride thing, I'm speaking to humanists why would I present it outside your thinking?
Indeed, good question.  So why are you presenting this as something that we're totally unable to understand unless we pray?  Seems to me that you're automatically presenting this "outside our thinking".

Quote from: harbinger77
I don't understand how this off hand comment has you all so bothered. Unless you all just gotta have something to argue about?
Because when a theist says something, and doesn't back it up, we want more than, "oh, well, you can't understand anyway unless you pray about it".  That's not an answer, that's an excuse, and a bad one at that.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #33 on: December 20, 2013, 03:45:30 PM »
The post that I had replied to was suggesting that The Bible tells a story where the earth is created and hung in nothing I guess, and then the universe after that. I pointed out his mistake in his understanding of creation. By demonstrating that there can be a universe with no earth it is also true there can be a universe even if it contains no stars. This was the root of his misunderstanding. Creation of stars = creation of the universe.

 The human pride comes in when they specifically  mentioned Earth. It goes without saying. Rather than just saying all planets or something along that line. They had to make their chip in the cookie more special than the rest. Typical human pride.

I don't see how this was hard to follow.

One vague statement that is kind of true if you squint hard doesn't distract me from the hundreds of things the Bible is just plain wrong on.
« Last Edit: December 20, 2013, 03:52:15 PM by Hatter23 »
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #34 on: December 20, 2013, 05:31:54 PM »
biased absolutely! narrow minded concerning God? Yes sir!
Dear me... You do know that God hates you, right?

Let us crack open KJV1611 and ask ourselves, "Who does God hate?" but first let us look at what Jesus says: You proclaim your faith loudly, yet does not Jesus warn,

"Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
M't:7:22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
M't:7:23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."


And now, a couple of sins that you seem to wallow in; sins that are abhorrent to God. He hates people like you:

The Proud (Romans 1:30), Boasters (Romans 1:30),

So, what is this "hate"? Why, it is the doctrine of reprobation or God's "HATE" and this involves eternal retribution or the everlasting punishment in Hell forever. The description is given in Leviticus 20:13,23, Psalm 5:5, Psalm 11:5, Malachi 1:1-3, Romans 9:11-13, Matthew 7:13,23, John 12:39-40, 1 Peter 2:8, Jude 4, Revelation 13:8, 20:15, 21:27, etc.

Yet you mindlessly, and happily ignoring the Word of the Almighty, The Lord of Hosts, (and paradoxically) you spit in His Perfect Face and boast of your faith and humility. You scream how humble you are from the roof-tops. You call for others to see how much you love God.

Is this right? Can it be true? It certainly seems so. I'm with God on this one. It is disgusting.

So, as you fry for all eternity, I and the other atheists here, having been modest and truly humble hoping only for "reasonable people to be heard (see the Sermon on the Mount), will sit with Jesus and look down and laugh as Satan and his Devils anally rape you in the pit of darkness and fire for all eternity. We, like poor Lazarus will peer down on you and we will laugh with Jesus.

I am really glad I am not you, for you the Afterlife will be torture without end and the presence of God will have deserted you for ever.

Worse still: as if your sins were not black and evil enough, you say you are biased... and yet Jesus tells us to "Judge in righteousness."

Jesus does not say, “Start hating, don't listen to reason but spit out your own one-sided, personal bile." No... He does not do that.  Yet you do it. I am so, so sad for you.

You will never see your family in heaven. You will never know joy. You will never sit at God’s right hand.

Look, Harbinger, I’m the last person to say this but I really feel the presence of Satan in your soul, your prideful, dark and wizened soul, the soul that festers with conceit, bias and pride within your breast and forces you to proclaim how much better you are than others. I cannot understand why all that Jesus has ever said is, to you and your dark master, no more than so much dross.

I hear you say you talk to God... and someone talks back... I am afraid that everything points to your being deceived. The voice you hear is that of Satan and his minions.

It cannot possibly be the Voice of Jesus. Jesus would never, ever, tell you to write such things.
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

Offline Antidote

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #35 on: December 20, 2013, 05:43:49 PM »
u·ni·verse (y n -vûrs )
n.1. The earth together with all its inhabitants and created things. (look at that. created things. hmm)
2. The human race.
3. The sphere or realm in which something exists or takes place.

I looked up the word "universe" on half a dozen or so online dictionaries, and not one of them gives your #1 definition as the primary definition. One of them (www.thefreedictionary.com citing American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition) does, however, include that definition, verbatim, and the other two as well. They're numbers 2a, 2b, and 3. Number 1 was: "All matter and energy, including the earth, the galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole.", which agrees reasonably well with the primary definitions given by the other dictionaries that I looked at.

Tell us, harbinger77, where did you find a dictionary that lists your #1 definition first? And if you did not, in fact, find such a dictionary, why did you misrepresent (as well as fail to cite) your source? Can you understand why doing that would be perceived as dishonest, or at least ill conceived?

Harbinger can you please address this.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2013, 10:50:07 AM »
u·ni·verse (y n -vûrs )
n.1. The earth together with all its inhabitants and created things. (look at that. created things. hmm)
2. The human race.
3. The sphere or realm in which something exists or takes place.

I looked up the word "universe" on half a dozen or so online dictionaries, and not one of them gives your #1 definition as the primary definition. One of them (www.thefreedictionary.com citing American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition) does, however, include that definition, verbatim, and the other two as well. They're numbers 2a, 2b, and 3. Number 1 was: "All matter and energy, including the earth, the galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole.", which agrees reasonably well with the primary definitions given by the other dictionaries that I looked at.

Tell us, harbinger77, where did you find a dictionary that lists your #1 definition first? And if you did not, in fact, find such a dictionary, why did you misrepresent (as well as fail to cite) your source? Can you understand why doing that would be perceived as dishonest, or at least ill conceived?

Harbinger can you please address this.

He cannot. Christians feel justified to make any kind of lie they can if it means someone else might join thier ranks and be 'saved.' After all, they must preach the 'truth' to the unrighteous.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2013, 12:15:50 PM »
u·ni·verse (y n -vûrs )
n.1. The earth together with all its inhabitants and created things. (look at that. created things. hmm)
2. The human race.
3. The sphere or realm in which something exists or takes place.

I looked up the word "universe" on half a dozen or so online dictionaries, and not one of them gives your #1 definition as the primary definition. One of them (www.thefreedictionary.com citing American Heritage Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition) does, however, include that definition, verbatim, and the other two as well. They're numbers 2a, 2b, and 3. Number 1 was: "All matter and energy, including the earth, the galaxies, and the contents of intergalactic space, regarded as a whole.", which agrees reasonably well with the primary definitions given by the other dictionaries that I looked at.

Tell us, harbinger77, where did you find a dictionary that lists your #1 definition first? And if you did not, in fact, find such a dictionary, why did you misrepresent (as well as fail to cite) your source? Can you understand why doing that would be perceived as dishonest, or at least ill conceived?

Harbinger can you please address this.

He cannot. Christians feel justified to make any kind of lie they can if it means someone else might join thier ranks and be 'saved.' After all, they must preach the 'truth' to the unrighteous.

I didn't highlight the full definition when I copied it. I got busy and a few hours later remembered I was responding. I pasted it to the post and thought well that's not right and I "fixed it"... I should have double checked the source, and I didn't in fact I gave it no other thought. Call it a brain fart. Not quite the dumbest thing I ever did but pretty dumb. in the future I will be be sure to not only double check the source but also include a link. I do humbly apologize for being stupid. I didn't intend to mislead or lie. I see how my actions could damage a future statement.

As for "Christians feeling justified to make any lie" I happen to believe that there is NOTHING I nor anyone else could say or do or not say or do that would convince you to turn to Jesus. Until the holy spirit acts on you and regenerates your spirit, You just won't. It's all God. His plan, His time, His way.
Also I changed some #s. In the end I misrepresented the definition. I didn't make it a lie by changing words though.

 I had no intent to deceive.
mis·rep·re·sent
Pronunciation: \( ? )mis- ? re-pri- ?zent\
Function: transitive verb
Date: 1647
1 : to give a false or misleading
representation of usually with an intent
to deceive or be unfair <misrepresented
the facts> 2 : to serve badly or
improperly as a representative of

http://i.word.com/idictionary/misrepresent
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2013, 12:26:35 PM »
biased absolutely! narrow minded concerning God? Yes sir!
Then why should anyone bother to pay attention to you, if you're so totally biased?  You are really no different than someone who's absolutely biased and narrow-minded concerning black people - totally convinced of your own rectitude and the rightness of what you believe, and totally unwilling to discuss the subject (except when you get to lecture other people about it), let alone listening to what someone else has to say.  It's a waste of both your time and ours.

Quote from: harbinger77
As an unsaved individual I'm sorry but you can't get it
Excuses don't help your case any, I'm afraid.

Quote from: harbinger77
it's all foolishness to those who are perishing. discernment is something you pray for. Unless you plan on hitting your knees and having a conversation with God... You will never understand.
Irrelevant.  If your god actually exists, then there is no reason he couldn't strike up a conversation with an atheist - offering excuses like "discernment is something you pray for" is silly.

Quote from: harbinger77
as for the pride thing, I'm speaking to humanists why would I present it outside your thinking?
Indeed, good question.  So why are you presenting this as something that we're totally unable to understand unless we pray?  Seems to me that you're automatically presenting this "outside our thinking".

Quote from: harbinger77
I don't understand how this off hand comment has you all so bothered. Unless you all just gotta have something to argue about?
Because when a theist says something, and doesn't back it up, we want more than, "oh, well, you can't understand anyway unless you pray about it".  That's not an answer, that's an excuse, and a bad one at that.

I only want to address 2 comments here. first Other than a few scriptures that say he won't, I see no reason God wouldn't "strike up a conversation" other than the fact that you won't humble yourself, get on your knees and make the call.

second You asked about something outside what you call discernment. You asked about my thinking. how can I present my thinking inside of your own?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2013, 01:05:54 PM »
Harbinger

When had God ever actually spoke to anyone in a way that we can know that he has - for example more than one person simultaneously hears exactly the same words? (I put it like that as we all know god doesn't speak out loud to anyone so it has to be something that a person 'hears' in their head. Think of it like three people listen to one person speaking. Each person listening hears exactly the same words. )
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline relativetruth

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2013, 01:49:44 PM »
As for "Christians feeling justified to make any lie" I happen to believe that there is NOTHING I nor anyone else could say or do or not say or do that would convince you to turn to Jesus. Until the holy spirit acts on you and regenerates your spirit, You just won't. It's all God. His plan, His time, His way.

My Bolding.

Fatalism. What will happen, will happen.

So we really cannot change things, so all we can do (as atheists) is hope that the holy spirit touches us on the shoulder and says. 'You guy are really chosen'.
God(s) exist and are imaginary

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2013, 02:24:49 PM »
As for "Christians feeling justified to make any lie" I happen to believe that there is NOTHING I nor anyone else could say or do or not say or do that would convince you to turn to Jesus. Until the holy spirit acts on you and regenerates your spirit, You just won't. It's all God. His plan, His time, His way.

My Bolding.

Fatalism. What will happen, will happen.

So we really cannot change things, so all we can do (as atheists) is hope that the holy spirit touches us on the shoulder and says. 'You guy are really chosen'.

So we are hardly ot blame if the HS doesn't touch us on the shoulder so we should go to heaven anyway and get bored with the singing?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2013, 03:09:20 PM »
Gee, I'm as humble as they come, and just this morning I was on my knees, looking for a pen that rolled under the sofa. Didn't hear a word.

But if that is what is required, does god-guy not see that it isn't working. He set up this specific system to get folks permanently high (i.e., into heaven) and misses not only most of the billions on earth right now, but also most of the billions of people who ever lived, who forgot to get all humble and stuff, and have already become fried heathen. So if a guy is gonna have a plan, he should be realistic, and take into consideration all the variables, not get all strict on our asses and assume that we know exactly what to do, and how. Without, by the way, providing clear instructions, unless you count the variations provided by those who think they have it all figured out. And who are, oft-times, hard to be around.

I asked my very religious friend George this morning if he ever hears gods voice. "Of course not, god doesn't talk to us. That's what faith is all about. If he talked to us, we wouldn't need it."

Now, I disagree with George just as much as I disagree with Harbinger, but at least George isn't asking me to assume the position.

Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2013, 03:13:26 PM »
As for "Christians feeling justified to make any lie" I happen to believe that there is NOTHING I nor anyone else could say or do or not say or do that would convince you to turn to Jesus. Until the holy spirit acts on you and regenerates your spirit, You just won't. It's all God. His plan, His time, His way.

My Bolding.

Fatalism. What will happen, will happen.

So we really cannot change things, so all we can do (as atheists) is hope that the holy spirit touches us on the shoulder and says. 'You guy are really chosen'.

Many Christians don't truly believe it is all up to god or the holy spirit. Or else they would stay at home and be religious and leave the rest of us alone. Instead, we have to live in a world where they are in our faces and trying to make us live according to their religious beliefs.

Look at all the religious crap that was thrown around in the last presidential election, how it is affecting the health care bill, people in the military forced to hear religious stuff, how it is even influencing foreign policy towards Israel and changing decisions about aid to other countries--no money to family planning clinics, for example.

How about this.  Leave it all up to god and the holy spirit. Please. No more missionaries, no more proselytizing, no more attempts to interfere in politics, no more heavily funded campaigns against gays or contraception, no more packing school boards to change the science curriculum. No more nativity scenes on public property or gigantic billboards telling everyone about how wonderful your religion is and how everyone else is going to hell. Let go and let god, right? I think every atheist would be down with that.

We will patiently wait for god and the holy spirit. You go first.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2013, 03:28:04 PM »
Gee, I'm as humble as they come, and just this morning I was on my knees, looking for a pen that rolled under the sofa. Didn't hear a word.

But if that is what is required, does god-guy not see that it isn't working. He set up this specific system to get folks permanently high (i.e., into heaven) and misses not only most of the billions on earth right now, but also most of the billions of people who ever lived, who forgot to get all humble and stuff, and have already become fried heathen. So if a guy is gonna have a plan, he should be realistic, and take into consideration all the variables, not get all strict on our asses and assume that we know exactly what to do, and how. Without, by the way, providing clear instructions, unless you count the variations provided by those who think they have it all figured out. And who are, oft-times, hard to be around.

I asked my very religious friend George this morning if he ever hears gods voice. "Of course not, god doesn't talk to us. That's what faith is all about. If he talked to us, we wouldn't need it."

Now, I disagree with George just as much as I disagree with Harbinger, but at least George isn't asking me to assume the position.

If he hasn't pleaded in anyway for your soul. Either with you or in his private time. I would have to say he is either not saved or not your friend. I don't think both can be true. I have no doubt he may be religious though. religious does not equal saved.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Antidote

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #45 on: December 21, 2013, 03:34:12 PM »
Gee, I'm as humble as they come, and just this morning I was on my knees, looking for a pen that rolled under the sofa. Didn't hear a word.

But if that is what is required, does god-guy not see that it isn't working. He set up this specific system to get folks permanently high (i.e., into heaven) and misses not only most of the billions on earth right now, but also most of the billions of people who ever lived, who forgot to get all humble and stuff, and have already become fried heathen. So if a guy is gonna have a plan, he should be realistic, and take into consideration all the variables, not get all strict on our asses and assume that we know exactly what to do, and how. Without, by the way, providing clear instructions, unless you count the variations provided by those who think they have it all figured out. And who are, oft-times, hard to be around.

I asked my very religious friend George this morning if he ever hears gods voice. "Of course not, god doesn't talk to us. That's what faith is all about. If he talked to us, we wouldn't need it."

Now, I disagree with George just as much as I disagree with Harbinger, but at least George isn't asking me to assume the position.

If he hasn't pleaded in anyway for your soul. Either with you or in his private time. I would have to say he is either not saved or not your friend. I don't think both can be true. I have no doubt he may be religious though. religious does not equal saved.

Why would "god" plea for our souls? I thought he was omniscient, if he was he would have no need to do so, and if he was omnipotent, he wouldn't have allowed us to stray from him, free-will be damned.
According to Cpt. Obvious: Theists think they know God, Atheists require evidence.

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Do not assume I was religious in any way, I have never been religious.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #46 on: December 21, 2013, 03:40:10 PM »
Gee, I'm as humble as they come, and just this morning I was on my knees, looking for a pen that rolled under the sofa. Didn't hear a word.

But if that is what is required, does god-guy not see that it isn't working. He set up this specific system to get folks permanently high (i.e., into heaven) and misses not only most of the billions on earth right now, but also most of the billions of people who ever lived, who forgot to get all humble and stuff, and have already become fried heathen. So if a guy is gonna have a plan, he should be realistic, and take into consideration all the variables, not get all strict on our asses and assume that we know exactly what to do, and how. Without, by the way, providing clear instructions, unless you count the variations provided by those who think they have it all figured out. And who are, oft-times, hard to be around.

I asked my very religious friend George this morning if he ever hears gods voice. "Of course not, god doesn't talk to us. That's what faith is all about. If he talked to us, we wouldn't need it."

Now, I disagree with George just as much as I disagree with Harbinger, but at least George isn't asking me to assume the position.

Matt7:14
13 “Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction,
and those who enter by it are many. 14 For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life,
and those who find it are few.
http://biblehub.com/esv/matthew/7.htm

looks like not only by your own account is the plan on course, but you just backed up Jesus too.

As for George. I do not doubt he may very well be religious. However, IF he has never pleaded for your soul to you or at least in private prayer, Either he is not saved or he is not your friend. I don't think both can be true. However, one can be religious AND unsaved. often times religion is what prevents salvation.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #47 on: December 21, 2013, 03:43:14 PM »
Gee, I'm as humble as they come, and just this morning I was on my knees, looking for a pen that rolled under the sofa. Didn't hear a word.

But if that is what is required, does god-guy not see that it isn't working. He set up this specific system to get folks permanently high (i.e., into heaven) and misses not only most of the billions on earth right now, but also most of the billions of people who ever lived, who forgot to get all humble and stuff, and have already become fried heathen. So if a guy is gonna have a plan, he should be realistic, and take into consideration all the variables, not get all strict on our asses and assume that we know exactly what to do, and how. Without, by the way, providing clear instructions, unless you count the variations provided by those who think they have it all figured out. And who are, oft-times, hard to be around.

I asked my very religious friend George this morning if he ever hears gods voice. "Of course not, god doesn't talk to us. That's what faith is all about. If he talked to us, we wouldn't need it."

Now, I disagree with George just as much as I disagree with Harbinger, but at least George isn't asking me to assume the position.

If he hasn't pleaded in anyway for your soul. Either with you or in his private time. I would have to say he is either not saved or not your friend. I don't think both can be true. I have no doubt he may be religious though. religious does not equal saved.

Yea, George is religious. He learned Greek specifically so he could read the parts of the bible in the original. He's been a christian for years and has tried to convert me on many an occasion. He credits his belief for getting him through the young death of his father, his sisters death in a car wreck, and his near fatal skydiving accident. He is every bit as religious as you.

Unless you guys have an agreed upon scoring system or something that can differentiate who is winning in the most religious category.

Thanks for not commenting on my main point, which was that your god guy hasn't gotten his word out very effectively. Notice, if you will, how little it impresses us, and it has impressed others just as little. But by not commenting, you have confirmed my suspicion that you do this out of ego, not out of concern for others. That is what I encounter in most christians. You folks think you are in a very exclusive club, and just don't realize that you're the ones coming up with all the entrance requirements.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #48 on: December 21, 2013, 03:46:34 PM »
Gee, I'm as humble as they come, and just this morning I was on my knees, looking for a pen that rolled under the sofa. Didn't hear a word.

But if that is what is required, does god-guy not see that it isn't working. He set up this specific system to get folks permanently high (i.e., into heaven) and misses not only most of the billions on earth right now, but also most of the billions of people who ever lived, who forgot to get all humble and stuff, and have already become fried heathen. So if a guy is gonna have a plan, he should be realistic, and take into consideration all the variables, not get all strict on our asses and assume that we know exactly what to do, and how. Without, by the way, providing clear instructions, unless you count the variations provided by those who think they have it all figured out. And who are, oft-times, hard to be around.

I asked my very religious friend George this morning if he ever hears gods voice. "Of course not, god doesn't talk to us. That's what faith is all about. If he talked to us, we wouldn't need it."

Now, I disagree with George just as much as I disagree with Harbinger, but at least George isn't asking me to assume the position.

If he hasn't pleaded in anyway for your soul. Either with you or in his private time. I would have to say he is either not saved or not your friend. I don't think both can be true. I have no doubt he may be religious though. religious does not equal saved.

Why would "god" plea for our souls? I thought he was omniscient, if he was he would have no need to do so, and if he was omnipotent, he wouldn't have allowed us to stray from him, free-will be damned.

curious thing I didn't mean for the double post but since you took "he" to be God not George (i was trying to edit) God did plead for your soul. He gave you Jesus, all of Creation, and the bible too.
However your statement is said like a true calvinist. God is the ONLY being with a free will. Perhaps you would like the doctrines of grace. Perhaps you're not ready for that either though...
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
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Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #49 on: December 21, 2013, 04:05:31 PM »
Harbinger

Do you realize how confusing it must be to people who actually want to be christians, let alone we atheists, that you guys have so many different versions of what is true? You just said only god has free will, yet we are told by other christians who come here that WE have free will. Now you may be splitting hairs rather than specifically saying that, but between that, the various descriptions of hell (where applicable), the various descriptions of heaven, what people have to do to get there, why we should want to go there, etc, we get this wide-ranging set of view, all coming under the heading of "Christian", and yet not agreeing with each other in myriad ways.

You are here now telling us that you are right. Others, with noticeably different takes on that religion, have told us far different things. If it was only little stuff, like the disagreeing by a few percentage points what the highest temperature ever reached in hell was, then it would be minor. But here you are, very christian, saying that the earth is not 6,000 years old (which is refreshing, by the way) and yet agreeing more in principal with others who do claim the universe to be young than you do with us, who superficially agree about the age of the earth.

If I even wanted to become a believer, I'd be doomed, because I don't have that many years left to live. Years that I'd need to use figuring out which variation to proclaim as god's truth.

I've got other things to do.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #50 on: December 21, 2013, 04:21:56 PM »
Gee, I'm as humble as they come, and just this morning I was on my knees, looking for a pen that rolled under the sofa. Didn't hear a word.

But if that is what is required, does god-guy not see that it isn't working. He set up this specific system to get folks permanently high (i.e., into heaven) and misses not only most of the billions on earth right now, but also most of the billions of people who ever lived, who forgot to get all humble and stuff, and have already become fried heathen. So if a guy is gonna have a plan, he should be realistic, and take into consideration all the variables, not get all strict on our asses and assume that we know exactly what to do, and how. Without, by the way, providing clear instructions, unless you count the variations provided by those who think they have it all figured out. And who are, oft-times, hard to be around.

I asked my very religious friend George this morning if he ever hears gods voice. "Of course not, god doesn't talk to us. That's what faith is all about. If he talked to us, we wouldn't need it."

Now, I disagree with George just as much as I disagree with Harbinger, but at least George isn't asking me to assume the position.

If he hasn't pleaded in anyway for your soul. Either with you or in his private time. I would have to say he is either not saved or not your friend. I don't think both can be true. I have no doubt he may be religious though. religious does not equal saved.

Yea, George is religious. He learned Greek specifically so he could read the parts of the bible in the original. He's been a christian for years and has tried to convert me on many an occasion. He credits his belief for getting him through the young death of his father, his sisters death in a car wreck, and his near fatal skydiving accident. He is every bit as religious as you.

Unless you guys have an agreed upon scoring system or something that can differentiate who is winning in the most religious category.

Thanks for not commenting on my main point, which was that your god guy hasn't gotten his word out very effectively. Notice, if you will, how little it impresses us, and it has impressed others just as little. But by not commenting, you have confirmed my suspicion that you do this out of ego, not out of concern for others. That is what I encounter in most christians. You folks think you are in a very exclusive club, and just don't realize that you're the ones coming up with all the entrance requirements.

perhaps you should discuss the diffrence between saved and religious with your friend.

The "entrance requirements" are stated plain enough repent ye that ye may be saved. of course to repent you must first realize that, like me and george, you are a sinner too.

why do you assume I'm hear to save your soul? That's not my motive. I also believe anyone who thinks they can save you is deluded. The Gospel has and does go out over the whole world. looks like the method to get the word out has been effective. Or have you not heard the good news?

since effective could mean something other than the way I took it. what would you have God to do since in your wisdom you see a better way?

1Cor1:18
The message of the cross is foolish to those who are headed for destruction! But we who are being saved know it is the very power of God.

John10:26-29
26 but you do not believe because you are not part
 of my flock. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I
know them, and they follow me. 28 I give them eternal life, and they will never perish, and no one
will snatch them out of my hand. 29 My Father, who has given them to me,
http://biblehub.com/esv/john/10.htm


Notice they don't Believe BECAUSE they are not His sheep.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 05:18:58 PM by harbinger77 »
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #51 on: December 21, 2013, 05:14:51 PM »
Harbinger

Do you realize how confusing it must be to people who actually want to be christians, let alone we atheists, that you guys have so many different versions of what is true? You just said only god has free will, yet we are told by other christians who come here that WE have free will. Now you may be splitting hairs rather than specifically saying that, but between that, the various descriptions of hell (where applicable), the various descriptions of heaven, what people have to do to get there, why we should want to go there, etc, we get this wide-ranging set of view, all coming under the heading of "Christian", and yet not agreeing with each other in myriad ways.

You are here now telling us that you are right. Others, with noticeably different takes on that religion, have told us far different things. If it was only little stuff, like the disagreeing by a few percentage points what the highest temperature ever reached in hell was, then it would be minor. But here you are, very christian, saying that the earth is not 6,000 years old (which is refreshing, by the way) and yet agreeing more in principal with others who do claim the universe to be young than you do with us, who superficially agree about the age of the earth.

If I even wanted to become a believer, I'd be doomed, because I don't have that many years left to live. Years that I'd need to use figuring out which variation to proclaim as god's truth.

I've got other things to do.

I should say I understand your frustration and I fight them with other Christians too. There are a few reasons people don't except what is truly true. Traditions and emotional attachment I believe are the 2 chief reasons. Then you have the false teachers out there. Like Joel Osteen and that  whole false prosperity "best life now" garbage. Then of course there are those who are plain Lazy and never read the Bible let alone study it. That's how cults happen. Then you have to sort out Catholics, Morman's and Jahovas witness. No matter how hard they fight you they are NOT christians. I come from a catholic family btw. I can show each of them the major defects but they never believe the words of the Bible. It breaks my heart really.

I would just tell you get off line get a bible and ask God to show you the truth. Open your heart and mind and read every word BEFORE you listen to someone who could very well be given over to a spirit that don't want to see you saved anyway. I bet you have enough life left to read a book that can be read out loud in 72hrs. I'm also confident that the truth will be known to those who seek it.

 Most Christians, or people in general, WANT to think they are in control. That they make some kind of decision. However, IF God is sovereign then would he not be in control  of EVERYTHING. It's a  hard doctrine to accept. look this one up for yourself. I think that since you are emotionally removed maybe you can see Arminianism
(en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism ) a logical paradox in some ways but look into calvinism also called the doctrine of grace or sovereignty reformed. theology or just type in T.U.L.I.P.

 http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/dabney/5points.htm
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #52 on: December 21, 2013, 05:55:49 PM »
I should say I understand your frustration and I fight them with other Christians too. There are a few reasons people don't except what is truly true. Traditions and emotional attachment I believe are the 2 chief reasons. Then you have the false teachers out there. Like Joel Osteen and that  whole false prosperity "best life now" garbage. Then of course there are those who are plain Lazy and never read the Bible let alone study it. That's how cults happen. Then you have to sort out Catholics, Morman's and Jahovas witness. No matter how hard they fight you they are NOT christians. I come from a catholic family btw. I can show each of them the major defects but they never believe the words of the Bible. It breaks my heart really.

I would just tell you get off line get a bible and ask God to show you the truth. Open your heart and mind and read every word BEFORE you listen to someone who could very well be given over to a spirit that don't want to see you saved anyway. I bet you have enough life left to read a book that can be read out loud in 72hrs. I'm also confident that the truth will be known to those who seek it.

 Most Christians, or people in general, WANT to think they are in control. That they make some kind of decision. However, IF God is sovereign then would he not be in control  of EVERYTHING. It's a  hard doctrine to accept. look this one up for yourself. I think that since you are emotionally removed maybe you can see Arminianism
(en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arminianism ) a logical paradox in some ways but look into calvinism also called the doctrine of grace or sovereignty reformed. theology or just type in T.U.L.I.P.

 http://www.spurgeon.org/~phil/dabney/5points.htm

I must commend your even response, even though I disagree with it (as I would any other version from any other christian). Luckily, I don't think for a second that I am in control of much of anything, so if that were my only problem with picking a type of god, it wouldn't be much of an issue. (By the way, not much else is in control of anything either, outside the various laws of physics and such,) As a biological mechanism slated to die in the next decade or so, I only need concern myself with that period of time between now and my last breathe. After that, my chemical components are on their own.

I wish life were so easy that you were right. If one simple source with all the answers was actually the truth, life would be so much less complicated. I wouldn't like it, but it would be simpler. Especially if said explanation were also effective.

I still say that real gods would be far less dependent upon the imaginations of their followers.

Added: By the way, I'm not actually frustrated. I see the wide variation in religions as more evidence that none of them are true. The ability to blatantly customize without negative feedback seems to be a good indicator that there are no gods out there, let alone ones with vested interests in our behavior, etc.
« Last Edit: December 21, 2013, 05:57:33 PM by ParkingPlaces »
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #53 on: December 21, 2013, 06:43:01 PM »
I see the wide variation in religions as more evidence that none of them are true. The ability to blatantly customize without negative feedback seems to be a good indicator that there are no gods out there, let alone ones with vested interests in our behavior, etc.

I concur. Far better evidence than the lack of healing of amputees. Gods arise reflecting the ideals and values of the culture that spawned them. When those cultures come into contact with other cultures, the concept of said gods seems to shift in perfect reflection of syncretism.
When the cultures shift, those gods either shift or fade away.

The claim that somehow the Christianity is different seems fanciful it must be treated with skepticism. So many things in the Bible do not match natural law, archeology, history, and human nature...plus so many aspects of Jesus seem to be borrowed from earlier myths...all from the local area, the conclusion that it is a syncretic myth structure; a Jewish heresy mixed with some Egyptian mysticism with two dashes of Platonic thought.

And then look at the time and place it emerged. Exactly the elements present. It is so terribly obvious, I have difficulty understanding how intelligent Christians not get it.




An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #54 on: December 21, 2013, 06:44:11 PM »
Then you have the false teachers out there.

How can we be sure you aren't one?
There is no opinion so absurd that a preacher could not express it.
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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #55 on: December 21, 2013, 06:58:00 PM »
biased absolutely! narrow minded concerning God? Yes sir!
Dear me... You do know that God hates you, right?

Let us crack open KJV1611 and ask ourselves, "Who does God hate?" but first let us look at what Jesus says: You proclaim your faith loudly, yet does not Jesus warn,

"Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
M't:7:22: Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
M't:7:23: And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity."


And now, a couple of sins that you seem to wallow in; sins that are abhorrent to God. He hates people like you:

The Proud (Romans 1:30), Boasters (Romans 1:30),

So, what is this "hate"? Why, it is the doctrine of reprobation or God's "HATE" and this involves eternal retribution or the everlasting punishment in Hell forever. The description is given in Leviticus 20:13,23, Psalm 5:5, Psalm 11:5, Malachi 1:1-3, Romans 9:11-13, Matthew 7:13,23, John 12:39-40, 1 Peter 2:8, Jude 4, Revelation 13:8, 20:15, 21:27, etc.

Yet you mindlessly, and happily ignoring the Word of the Almighty, The Lord of Hosts, (and paradoxically) you spit in His Perfect Face and boast of your faith and humility. You scream how humble you are from the roof-tops. You call for others to see how much you love God.

Is this right? Can it be true? It certainly seems so. I'm with God on this one. It is disgusting.

So, as you fry for all eternity, I and the other atheists here, having been modest and truly humble hoping only for "reasonable people to be heard (see the Sermon on the Mount), will sit with Jesus and look down and laugh as Satan and his Devils anally rape you in the pit of darkness and fire for all eternity. We, like poor Lazarus will peer down on you and we will laugh with Jesus.

I am really glad I am not you, for you the Afterlife will be torture without end and the presence of God will have deserted you for ever.

Worse still: as if your sins were not black and evil enough, you say you are biased... and yet Jesus tells us to "Judge in righteousness."

Jesus does not say, “Start hating, don't listen to reason but spit out your own one-sided, personal bile." No... He does not do that.  Yet you do it. I am so, so sad for you.

You will never see your family in heaven. You will never know joy. You will never sit at God’s right hand.

Look, Harbinger, I’m the last person to say this but I really feel the presence of Satan in your soul, your prideful, dark and wizened soul, the soul that festers with conceit, bias and pride within your breast and forces you to proclaim how much better you are than others. I cannot understand why all that Jesus has ever said is, to you and your dark master, no more than so much dross.

I hear you say you talk to God... and someone talks back... I am afraid that everything points to your being deceived. The voice you hear is that of Satan and his minions.

It cannot possibly be the Voice of Jesus. Jesus would never, ever, tell you to write such things.

You said you hate the KJV1611. (private msg) I should also point out I can tell from the spelling you didn't use it. so when you said lets see what it says and quoted something else you lied.

Rev21:8
But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

I never said anything you allude to sir. i'm sorry. never said I hear a voice. More like feel one. I have nothing to be proud about. I have nothing to even boast about, All I am all I have is given me by the father. I have never claimed more. You "feel" satan in me? I see him in the fruit of your teaching.

Galatians1:8-10
8 But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
9 As we said before, so say I now again, If any man
preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed.
10 For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should
not be the servant of Christ.
http://biblehub.com/kjv/galatians/1.htm

Did you just do a search to establish God hates some people and or sins? Thank you it goes well with the Tulip.

 You are the lawyer to my tax collector sir. I'm glad you are not me and may God forgive us both for we are but dirty sinners.


You can't sit in heaven and deny Christ, let alone God. However "good" you think are.

1 John 4:2-3
This is how you can recognize the Spirit of God: Every spirit that acknowledges that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God, 3 and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which
you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world.
http://biblehub.com/1_john/2-23.htm

Romans 10:9
If you declare with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.
http://biblehub.com/1_john/4-15.htm

That IS the spirit of anti-christ all over you. You twist the scripture at every turn. You do truly have a talent for it sir.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #56 on: December 21, 2013, 07:10:41 PM »
Then you have the false teachers out there.

How can we be sure you aren't one?

I invite you to look up what I say. NEVER take my word or someone else's word for it. You should question and test and seek God always.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #57 on: December 21, 2013, 07:13:17 PM »
I invite you to look up what I say. NEVER take my word or someone else's word for it. You should question and test and seek God always.

Questioning and testing is exactly why some (most?) of us became atheists.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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