Author Topic: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!  (Read 6349 times)

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Offline Graybeard

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #174 on: January 08, 2014, 10:18:19 AM »
harbinger77 ,
I have three of your answers here:
Redefine? No.
In a sentence I might say, "My faith is not in religion."
But I would be right in thinking that your faith is within the tenets of a religion?

Yes, as you understand it.
 My faith is in Christ. Not in for example being Church of Christ, Mormon, Catholic or JW. All of those (plus some) believe they are the one true religion and all others are damned. We could further expand to include completely opposing  forms of religion. They all base faith in something other than God. I say my faith is in God. You say God IS religion.

Redefine? No.
In a sentence I might say, "My faith is not in religion."
But I would be right in thinking that your faith is within the tenets of a religion?

Yes, as you understand it.
 My faith is in Christ. Not in for example being Church of Christ, Mormon, Catholic or JW. All of those (plus some) believe they are the one true religion and all others are damned. We could further expand to include completely opposing  forms of religion. They all base faith in something other than God. I say my faith is in God. You say God IS religion.

Hold on a sec! Didn't you say in another thread you were a Calvinist? Isn't Calvinsim a religion?

Yes, as you understand it.
 My faith is in Christ. Not in for example being Church of Christ, Mormon, Catholic or JW. All of those (plus some) believe they are the one true religion and all others are damned. We could further expand to include completely opposing  forms of religion. They all base faith in something other than God. I say my faith is in God. You say God IS religion.

Accepting that what you say above is true, how do you square your ability (which would almost have to be miraculous), to get it right while millions of others who call themselves Christians look at religion/god in different ways? Ways that you apparently often disagree with.

How come you know you have it right and also know that so many of them have it wrong.

And how are we, as atheists, supposed to differentiate between your version of "right" and the many other theists who have come here, also claiming to have it "right", but whose take on religion differs from your version in substantial ways?

This is a curiosity question, not a challenge.

This really does seem to be one of the single least-answered questions out there. Every Christian seems to think that by answering that THEY simply stick to what the Bible says makes it somehow clear. None of them will entertain the thought that if misinterpretation (running the gamut from demonic influence to simple SPAG) is possible for one person reading the very same book, then it is possible for anyone else including themselves.

I'll concede to that being possible. The   heart is deceitful above all things. That's why as far as reading the bible goes you use Hermaneutics. If your interpretation contradicts the bible then your wrong. Personally I think it's related to what a person WANTS to believe rather than what the txt says. For example "god loves you" maybe he does but when we read ROM 9:13 we see that we can't say that absolutely.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics

can you provide me with an example of doctrine that we may discuss?

This is all quite important. A simple reading of the above would seem to indicate that you are “simply a Christian” with no allegiance to any complete set of doctrines and dogma as professed by any established church.

If this is so, are you basically saying you are a prophet of God able to discern what it is He wants of mankind[1]?
 1. and also give a reasoned answer to any doctrine proposed by any other religion
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #175 on: January 08, 2014, 10:27:53 AM »
That strikes me more as typical Christian cherry-picking, Graybeard, than him getting a direct feed from God.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #176 on: January 08, 2014, 04:12:42 PM »
A link about the elderly Japanese engineers who are atheist martyrs, volunteering to face death for the cause of protecting the younger generation:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-pacific-13598607

Christian engineers should have jumped at the chance to help out at Fukushima. Why didn't they? I have asked many times, why committed Christians do not routinely volunteer to do that kind of dangerous work in the service of all humanity.[1] There should be Christians by the millions working in the UN land mine removal program in Laos. Where are the pregnant Christian women lining up to let doctors test new AIDS or malaria drugs on them?  That would be an incredible boon to science and would save millions of babies in poor countries.

There are 2 billion people who claim to be some sort of Christian. There should be no shortage people to do the dangerous work of society. I have never gotten a single good answer from a theist, only excuses.

People who know for a fact that they are going to be with god for all eternity should make themselves useful in some really practical way here on earth, become martyrs, and get on with their trip to heaven. Instead, they make themselves annoying, serving as missionaries, bugging the poor people of the world about their religion. &)
 1. I am not saying that people should just kill themselves outright and go to heaven--that would only make them look crazy. I am saying they should perform useful but deadly work and go to heaven. What could be more convincing of their true faith than that?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #177 on: January 08, 2014, 04:26:41 PM »

There are 2 billion people who claim to be some sort of Christian. There should be no shortage people to do the dangerous work of society. I have never gotten a single good answer from a theist, only excuses.

People who know for a fact that they are going to be with god for all eternity should make themselves useful in some really practical way here on earth, become martyrs, and get on with their trip to heaven. Instead, they make themselves annoying, serving as missionaries, bugging the poor people of the world about their religion. &)

I was driving home from the goth club one foggy night. I saw a strange light up ahead. I slowed down and looked around the corner to see a car upside down on fire. A family was pounding on the windows as the roll had crushed the door handles. I ran up with my cane, broke the window and pulled the father from the car, and then others.

When that was done people who been watching from the darkness, came forth, their little gold crosses on their neck and "Thank God" on their lips, stating they were afaid to approch because the fire was on the gas tank.

Yet this little Atheist, who didn't think he would have gotten a sweet afterlife special, took the risk.

Telling, isn't it?
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #178 on: January 08, 2014, 06:33:31 PM »
^^^Good on you, Hatter. I once did something similar, pulling an old woman to safety out of the window of a bus with an exploding radiator. This was after I broke my toe jumping out the window myself. I went back for the old woman, who was sitting there going "Ay, dios, Jesus, Jesus" and waiting to die. The rest of the bus passengers, presumably Christians in this Hispanic country, stood by and watched, also going, "Ay, dios, Jesus, Jesus." It took this atheist to actually do something. Everyone else waited for Jesus.  &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #179 on: January 08, 2014, 07:44:01 PM »
I've never been in a situation like that, so I simply don't know.  I'm also rather cautious, but I have stopped to help people in less dire situations (like someone stopped by the side of the road because of car problems), and I also stopped to try to rescue a dying cat (as in, so badly starved/dehydrated that it wouldn't have lasted the day - sadly, I was too frantic to think clearly, so I didn't think to take him to the vet for advice, and he ended up dying anyway), so I'd like to think I would stop to help people in a dangerous situation.

I don't necessarily think it has anything to do with whether someone is Christian or not, though.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #180 on: January 08, 2014, 08:54:47 PM »
I'm not talking about martyrdom in general rather a specific aspect of it. Links that define Martyer are not what I was asking for. I mentioned the apostles and other Christians being tortured and put to death in horrid ways. I claim that this is compelling evidence for me. I even supplied a link for a whole book of examples that support my claim.

You made the counterclaim that people of all faiths are tortured yet never give up their gods or religion or even lack of even unto a horrid death. I want to read personal examples not conjecture... from the way you describe it, it should take a few seconds... So where is it?

 As for redefining words why does the Atheist get yo do it, but not the Christian?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #181 on: January 08, 2014, 09:34:45 PM »
Not trying to be rude, harbinger, but you're basically nitpicking at this point.  If you mean a Christian martyr, then say that - but you don't get to define what early Christians supposedly went through as martyrdom and then act as if other martyrs don't count because their experiences weren't as severe, or whatever it is that you're trying to claim.  Besides, there are non-Christian figures who went through just as awful of experiences as Christian martyrs.  For example, the Greek philosopher Hypatia was pretty brutally murdered by a mob of Christians - clothing torn off, dragged through the streets, probably raped, torn to pieces, with the pieces being incinerated.  It's pretty obvious that she was a martyr, too.  I'm sure she could have 'repented' and saved her life from those Christian fanatics, but she clearly chose to put her beliefs above her life.

By the way, if an atheist were to redefine some word for their convenience, I'd call them on it too.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #182 on: January 08, 2014, 09:36:15 PM »
Before I or anyone else goes through the trouble of researching religious martyrs from non-Christian faiths (when it seems like you have already decided that anyone who seems to be a non-Christian martyr actually isn't one) a couple more questions.

1)Why would you assume that there would not be martyrs from other faiths?

You continue to maintain that your faith and yours alone invites believers so committed they are willing to give their lives. Even if you think their religions are false, the people within those traditions believe in them. People throughout history have died (and killed) because they thought their religion was true, even when it was clearly false to outsiders.

2) Do you accept Catholic martyrs as legit or do the Christian martyrs have to be Protestant Christians? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_martyrs_of_the_English_Reformation

3) Do you accept that most of the indigenous people who died for their faith did not leave records? History is written by the winners, and the Christians won.

However, there is this famous story: The Caribbean Taino cacique (chief) Hatuey fled with his people but was captured by Christians and burned alive. As they were tying him to the stake a Franciscan friar urged him to take Jesus to his heart so that his soul might go to heaven, rather than descend into hell. Hatuey replied that if heaven was where the Christians went, he would rather go to hell. Now, that's a martyr. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hatuey

Here are a whole bunch of Sikh people in India who were tortured and killed for not renouncing their faith and accepting Islam. The stories are quite detailed and the tortures are pretty graphic. Some are embellished with supernatural stuff, like the guy who continued to fight even after his head was severed. In other words, every bit as believable as all the stories of Christian martyrs. http://greatsikhism.com/sikhmartyrs.html

The Maya and Aztec of Mexico believed, for hundred of years, that the gods needed human sacrifices to keep the universe going. I don't doubt that there were people who offered themselves for the ceremonies if there weren't enough slaves and prisoners to make all the gods happy.[1] Native Americans thought that their gods would protect them if they did the ghost dance. They rode straight into the US Calvary bullets and died. Christians murdered thousands of people accused of witchcraft, as did the Crusaders, thinking that god wanted them to do it.

These people were all wrong. So are you, but that does not mean you are not sincerely committed to your beliefs, just as they were.
 1. The people of Mexico don't do human sacrifices anymore, and yet the universe is still going. I guess the "human sacrifice" thing was a metaphor or a parable.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #183 on: January 09, 2014, 01:09:59 AM »
harbinger77 ,
I have three of your answers here:
Redefine? No.
In a sentence I might say, "My faith is not in religion."
But I would be right in thinking that your faith is within the tenets of a religion?

Yes, as you understand it.
 My faith is in Christ. Not in for example being Church of Christ, Mormon, Catholic or JW. All of those (plus some) believe they are the one true religion and all others are damned. We could further expand to include completely opposing  forms of religion. They all base faith in something other than God. I say my faith is in God. You say God IS religion.

Redefine? No.
In a sentence I might say, "My faith is not in religion."
But I would be right in thinking that your faith is within the tenets of a religion?

Yes, as you understand it.
 My faith is in Christ. Not in for example being Church of Christ, Mormon, Catholic or JW. All of those (plus some) believe they are the one true religion and all others are damned. We could further expand to include completely opposing  forms of religion. They all base faith in something other than God. I say my faith is in God. You say God IS religion.

Hold on a sec! Didn't you say in another thread you were a Calvinist? Isn't Calvinsim a religion?

Yes, as you understand it.
 My faith is in Christ. Not in for example being Church of Christ, Mormon, Catholic or JW. All of those (plus some) believe they are the one true religion and all others are damned. We could further expand to include completely opposing  forms of religion. They all base faith in something other than God. I say my faith is in God. You say God IS religion.

Accepting that what you say above is true, how do you square your ability (which would almost have to be miraculous), to get it right while millions of others who call themselves Christians look at religion/god in different ways? Ways that you apparently often disagree with.

How come you know you have it right and also know that so many of them have it wrong.

And how are we, as atheists, supposed to differentiate between your version of "right" and the many other theists who have come here, also claiming to have it "right", but whose take on religion differs from your version in substantial ways?

This is a curiosity question, not a challenge.

This really does seem to be one of the single least-answered questions out there. Every Christian seems to think that by answering that THEY simply stick to what the Bible says makes it somehow clear. None of them will entertain the thought that if misinterpretation (running the gamut from demonic influence to simple SPAG) is possible for one person reading the very same book, then it is possible for anyone else including themselves.

I'll concede to that being possible. The   heart is deceitful above all things. That's why as far as reading the bible goes you use Hermaneutics. If your interpretation contradicts the bible then your wrong. Personally I think it's related to what a person WANTS to believe rather than what the txt says. For example "god loves you" maybe he does but when we read ROM 9:13 we see that we can't say that absolutely.
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hermeneutics

can you provide me with an example of doctrine that we may discuss?

This is all quite important. A simple reading of the above would seem to indicate that you are “simply a Christian” with no allegiance to any complete set of doctrines and dogma as professed by any established church.

If this is so, are you basically saying you are a prophet of God able to discern what it is He wants of mankind[1]?
 1. and also give a reasoned answer to any doctrine proposed by any other religion

A prophet??! I didn't say anything prophetic there.  My answers are not all that unique.... I can support any one of those ideas with scripture. I'm simply a Christian yes sir! No true affiliation. Church the building is of man. Church is the fellowship of people. In a field or where ever the location even is not important. That's what God intends.

If I have any kind of prophetic message it's not for you. What could i say that hasn't been said before by men twice what I am. I  don't have enough pride to think I can convince any of you.

I think as Atheists you would all get a kick out of this. I'll share what's on my heart concerning the church.. prophetic? No.. main stream not even in a dream. This makes me cry sometimes..

2Tim3:1-6
 1 But realize this, that in the last days difficult times will come.
2 For men will be lovers of self, lovers of money,
boastful, arrogant, revilers, disobedient to parents, ungrateful, unholy,
3 unloving, irreconcilable, malicious gossips, without self-control, brutal, haters of good,…
4 treacherous, reckless, conceited,
lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of
God,
5 holding to a form of godliness, although they have denied its power; Avoid such men as these.
6 For among them are those who enter into
households and captivate weak women weighed down with sins, led on by various impulses,

This is the "church" today. All this division. living like it's nobody's business. Even the atheist mocks your "Godly power" let alone your so called righteous living. WAKE UP! You are a stench unto your Lord!
If all the stories you all shared are correct in all detail then you see prophesy before you.
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #184 on: January 09, 2014, 01:46:43 AM »
These people were all wrong. So are you, but that does not mean you are not sincerely committed to your beliefs, just as they were.

Thank you for doing a bit of home work. I concede the argument others have indeed faced brutality and clung fast to a belief. However, believing is one thing. We still have all the apostles who if they "made it up" would KNOW it was false. Now that we have established people all over die for opinions, traditions. The question is who dies knowingly for a lie?
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #185 on: January 09, 2014, 02:09:40 AM »

Thank you for doing a bit of home work. I concede the argument others have indeed faced brutality and clung fast to a belief. However, believing is one thing. We still have all the apostles who if they "made it up" would KNOW it was false. Now that we have established people all over die for opinions, traditions. The question is who dies knowingly for a lie?

Name a lie that people have not died for.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #186 on: January 09, 2014, 02:31:16 AM »
Thank you for doing a bit of home work. I concede the argument others have indeed faced brutality and clung fast to a belief. However, believing is one thing. We still have all the apostles who if they "made it up" would KNOW it was false. Now that we have established people all over die for opinions, traditions. The question is who dies knowingly for a lie?

Now for your other statement. The apostles did not make it up, Paul did. That is why the apostles fought against Paul and why the Christian church declared the original Jerusalem church of the apostles a heresy, or did you not know that?
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Offline harbinger77

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #187 on: January 09, 2014, 02:50:42 AM »
Thank you for doing a bit of home work. I concede the argument others have indeed faced brutality and clung fast to a belief. However, believing is one thing. We still have all the apostles who if they "made it up" would KNOW it was false. Now that we have established people all over die for opinions, traditions. The question is who dies knowingly for a lie?

Now for your other statement. The apostles did not make it up, Paul did. That is why the apostles fought against Paul and why the Christian church declared the original Jerusalem church of the apostles a heresy, or did you not know that?
not so fast.. the "it" that I'm referring to is the resurrection of Christ. I think it's pretty clear the apostles know something about that.
 show me where people died KNOWING what they die for is a lie...
Tell the truth and live or maybe at least die a quicker death type scenario.

If you are referring to Messianic Judaism doctrine on Paul I'm aware of it and it does not stand the hermanutical test. If not... lets see a link for such a claim.

Unsubstantiated claims do nothing for me...
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 02:55:20 AM by harbinger77 »
I can't help but look at those pages (human genome) and have a vague sense that this is giving me a glimpse of God's mind.
-Francis Collins lead scientist Human Genome project

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #188 on: January 09, 2014, 03:38:49 AM »
Thank you for doing a bit of home work. I concede the argument others have indeed faced brutality and clung fast to a belief. However, believing is one thing. We still have all the apostles who if they "made it up" would KNOW it was false. Now that we have established people all over die for opinions, traditions. The question is who dies knowingly for a lie?

Now for your other statement. The apostles did not make it up, Paul did. That is why the apostles fought against Paul and why the Christian church declared the original Jerusalem church of the apostles a heresy, or did you not know that?
not so fast.. the "it" that I'm referring to is the resurrection of Christ. I think it's pretty clear the apostles know something about that.
 show me where people died KNOWING what they die for is a lie...
Tell the truth and live or maybe at least die a quicker death type scenario.

If you are referring to Messianic Judaism doctrine on Paul I'm aware of it and it does not stand the hermanutical test. If not... lets see a link for such a claim.

Unsubstantiated claims do nothing for me...

Why do people have to know it is a lie? People can convince themselves of anything. Think of the flat earth society which still exists, the UFO abductions which people claim to have experienced and countless other nonsense which is still around even in today's age of information technology.

Now for the resurrection. Jesus was not the only person to have a botched crucifixion. No one dies on a cross in a six hours, it takes three to four days to die of exhaustion. His followers could convince themselves of whatever they wanted.
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Offline Ivellios

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #189 on: January 09, 2014, 06:50:14 AM »
Not only that, people in the old days knew sometimes when someone was thought to be dead they might not be[1]. That's why it was traditionaly held that in order to be considered 'dead', they had to be dead for 72 hours. Jesus was barely "dead" 36 hours. If this happened a few centuries later, someone would have still been on 'bell' watch. That's what they started doing because sometimes when a body was exhumed it became clear they were buried alive.
 1. they didn't have the sophisicated instrements we have today

Offline Fiji

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #190 on: January 09, 2014, 08:37:25 AM »
That's the reason Jonah was said to have been in the whale for 3 days. It happened often enough that someone got up after being in a coma for two days that, had the story been that Jonah was in the whale for two days, people would just go, "yeah, so what, people do that sometimes ... get up after two days, what's the miracle".

But as written, the story becomes a miracle ... three days in a whale? Oh, he's dead. There ain't no coming back from that!
Science: I'll believe it when I see it
Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

Schrodinger's thunderdome! One cat enters and one MIGHT leave!

Without life, god has no meaning.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #191 on: January 09, 2014, 08:40:09 AM »
I don't necessarily think it has anything to do with whether someone is Christian or not, though.

I'm not stating their Christianity prevented or dissuaded them from risking their lives. Not at all. After all their are plenty  of  Volunteer fire men who are Catholics, for instance. What I am saying is the man with no hope or belief in a reward took the risk for others, and those who supposedly had said belief didn't.
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #192 on: January 09, 2014, 09:30:36 AM »
Thank you for doing a bit of home work. I concede the argument others have indeed faced brutality and clung fast to a belief. However, believing is one thing. We still have all the apostles who if they "made it up" would KNOW it was false. Now that we have established people all over die for opinions, traditions. The question is who dies knowingly for a lie?

Now for your other statement. The apostles did not make it up, Paul did. That is why the apostles fought against Paul and why the Christian church declared the original Jerusalem church of the apostles a heresy, or did you not know that?
not so fast.. the "it" that I'm referring to is the resurrection of Christ. I think it's pretty clear the apostles know something about that.
 show me where people died KNOWING what they die for is a lie...
Tell the truth and live or maybe at least die a quicker death type scenario.

If you are referring to Messianic Judaism doctrine on Paul I'm aware of it and it does not stand the hermanutical test. If not... lets see a link for such a claim.

Unsubstantiated claims do nothing for me...

Why do people have to know it is a lie? People can convince themselves of anything. Think of the flat earth society which still exists, the UFO abductions which people claim to have experienced and countless other nonsense which is still around even in today's age of information technology.

Now for the resurrection. Jesus was not the only person to have a botched crucifixion. No one dies on a cross in a six hours, it takes three to four days to die of exhaustion. His followers could convince themselves of whatever they wanted.

This is a specific event not a generalization.
You provide examples of things people have convinced themselves of by collecting "evidence." UFO abductions for example. These people already believe "they are out there" so to laps into some crazy hallucination based on something you believe to be true is not a long shot. I really think the flat earth guys must be akin to the spaghetti monster guys. It's gotta be a joke. Even  so  these conspiracy types have never been to space. How can they KNOW they believe a lie?

Jesus was not allowed to hang till death they didn't want him up there during the pass over. He was stabbed in his lung to induce a quicker death. Some would even say Jesus was never Killed. Rather He decided when he was done. He gave up His own ghost. No man could take it from Him.

The apostles, and jews still, believed the Messiah would come in power and over throw the Roman empire to establish His kingdom on earth. They never did believe, and still don't, that Jesus would die on a cross. This is what Jews believe and what the apostles were looking for in the Messiah. When jesus died they thought they had the wrong guy.

That being true, and it is. They would KNOW for a fact they made it up. First hand account. Why would they die for a KNOWN lie? Why would a jew run around telling people the Messiah came when it was totally contrary to what the jews held about the Messiah?

stabbed in the lung, beaten to near death, hung on a cross. and survived with no medical attention. You still have the ascension to account for. Also witnessed by the apostles.

Can someone provide evidence for this 2 day comma thing? And botched crucifictions too. It sounds like speculation to me.
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Online xyzzy

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #193 on: January 09, 2014, 10:01:06 AM »
harbinger, you must be one of the fittest Christian's I've met - what with all that goalpost shifting that you do on a regular basis.

In the subject in general, we've covered healing, Martyrs, your definition of Martyrs who can only be Christian, now we're at not just dying for a lie, but knowingly (purposefully?) dying for a lie.

As above, this seems to be your common response - redefine what you want, but refuse to accept any counter examples. And it won't stop, will it? Shall we just proceed to "well, show me an example exactly like the apostles, using only the apostles, described exactly as I believe it to have happened, then we can talk?".

Now, I'm not being as flippant as it seems. This point has been made by others, but its almost as if nothing else matters other than you having your examples to make your point? It seems that you are less interested in this being a Christian-only example, than you are of it being an argument to defend your faith? The requests for examples then serve as diversions that allow you to dismiss the counterexamples, rather than your taking a step back and critically comparing the claims?

After all, you've been given a lot of different examples, but none seem to serve to get you to reconsider that we started with what seemed to be the allusion that these things were only to be found in Christianity.

On and thank you for continuing not to clearly answer the question about why the events that you claim as supporting Christianity in general, happen outside of Christianity, sometimes being used to justify other beliefs, or simply happening with equal probability to believers and nonbelievers alike. I'm guessing, as alluded by Fiji, that they didn't involve enough Scotsmen?[1]
 1. Fallacy of no true Scotsman - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 10:03:41 AM by xyzzy »
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #194 on: January 09, 2014, 11:24:05 AM »
This is a specific event not a generalization.
You have to prove that this "specific event" actually happened, not just take what's written in the Bible as the Gospel truth.  More to the point, for someone who claims to have been abducted by a UFO, it was a specific event, not a generalization.  Not only that, but it was a specific event for them - something they claim happened to them personally.  I'll throw in another one as well, people who claim to be the reincarnation of Jesus.  For them, it's a specific event, not a generalization.  The fact remains that it's up to them to prove that those things are actually true - and it's up to you to prove that your own "specific event" happened, even though it was two thousand years ago and occurred to someone else.

Quote from: harbinger77
You provide examples of things people have convinced themselves of by collecting "evidence." UFO abductions for example. These people already believe "they are out there" so to laps into some crazy hallucination based on something you believe to be true is not a long shot. I really think the flat earth guys must be akin to the spaghetti monster guys. It's gotta be a joke. Even  so  these conspiracy types have never been to space. How can they KNOW they believe a lie?
Granted.  But the same goes for you.  You've convinced yourself of something based on the supposed eyewitness testimony in the Bible - which you can't even verify was written by the same people who supposedly witnessed it, let alone whether it actually happened.  So how do you get around this very same problem?  Your own faith can't prove it happened; the faith of every Christian put together can't do that..

Quote from: harbinger77
Jesus was not allowed to hang till death they didn't want him up there during the pass over. He was stabbed in his lung to induce a quicker death. Some would even say Jesus was never Killed. Rather He decided when he was done. He gave up His own ghost. No man could take it from Him.
I thought the Bible said he was stabbed in the side?  Regardless, the whole story of the crucifixion is apocryphal.  The nails that were supposedly used on him (instead of the ropes used to tie ordinary criminals to their own crosses), being stabbed, all of it - it's based on stuff written in the Bible and has no corroborating evidence, let alone verification.  We don't even know for sure who actually wrote those stories down.

Quote from: harbinger77
The apostles, and jews still, believed the Messiah would come in power and over throw the Roman empire to establish His kingdom on earth. They never did believe, and still don't, that Jesus would die on a cross. This is what Jews believe and what the apostles were looking for in the Messiah. When jesus died they thought they had the wrong guy.
I thought the apostles were swiftly converted once Jesus "rose from the dead"?  Which is another apocryphal story.  We don't even know if there was a tomb, let alone if anyone was ever buried there.

Quote from: harbinger77
That being true, and it is. They would KNOW for a fact they made it up. First hand account. Why would they die for a KNOWN lie? Why would a jew run around telling people the Messiah came when it was totally contrary to what the jews held about the Messiah?
I think the point that other people are trying to make to you is that it doesn't matter whether someone knows that something is a lie or not.  If it is a lie, then them believing it true doesn't make it any less of a lie.

Quote from: harbinger77
stabbed in the lung, beaten to near death, hung on a cross. and survived with no medical attention. You still have the ascension to account for. Also witnessed by the apostles.
Assuming any of it ever happened in the first place.  Assuming the apostles were real people, and that they witnessed a real event.

Quote from: harbinger77
Can someone provide evidence for this 2 day comma thing? And botched crucifictions too. It sounds like speculation to me.
First off, the whole point of crucifixion was to deliver a slow, agonizing death.  That's why this business of Jesus being stabbed to hasten his death is so suspect.  If anything, the usual method to hasten death was breaking the legs.  Stabbing was usually reserved for ensuring that someone was already dead and not faking it[1].

Second, considering that people have survived firing squads, hangings, electrocution, and even being impaled, why would you assume that crucifixion was somehow a foolproof way to kill someone?  Some people can just take a lot of punishment without dying from it, to the point where they look dead.  If you then assume they are dead and, say, bury them, they could wake up later on.

I don't have anything regarding delaying three days to declare someone dead, so I'll leave that for someone else.  However, even modern doctors have occasionally declared someone dead who isn't, so it's not hard to believe that ancient doctors, with far less medical knowledge, could do the same thing.
 1. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080528084041AA6Znch

Offline harbinger77

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #195 on: January 09, 2014, 11:26:11 AM »
harbinger, you must be one of the fittest Christian's I've met - what with all that goalpost shifting that you do on a regular basis.

In the subject in general, we've covered healing, Martyrs, your definition of Martyrs who can only be Christian, now we're at not just dying for a lie, but knowingly (purposefully?) dying for a lie.

As above, this seems to be your common response - redefine what you want, but refuse to accept any counter examples. And it won't stop, will it? Shall we just proceed to "well, show me an example exactly like the apostles, using only the apostles, described exactly as I believe it to have happened, then we can talk?".

Now, I'm not being as flippant as it seems. This point has been made by others, but its almost as if nothing else matters other than you having your examples to make your point? It seems that you are less interested in this being a Christian-only example, than you are of it being an argument to defend your faith? The requests for examples then serve as diversions that allow you to dismiss the counterexamples, rather than your taking a step back and critically comparing the claims?

After all, you've been given a lot of different examples, but none seem to serve to get you to reconsider that we started with what seemed to be the allusion that these things were only to be found in Christianity.

On and thank you for continuing not to clearly answer the question about why the events that you claim as supporting Christianity in general, happen outside of Christianity, sometimes being used to justify other beliefs, or simply happening with equal probability to believers and nonbelievers alike. I'm guessing, as alluded by Fiji, that they didn't involve enough Scotsmen?[1]
 1. Fallacy of no true Scotsman - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
no... AN example would suffice. I've seen nothing but unsupported story telling so far.
I never once said a martyer can only be christian. Aside from that I've conceded the argument. I was wrong.

defending a position.. that's kind of the heart of debate. I gave an idea that is supported. I have read nothing but stories of speculation. I want examples.

The claim of things happening outside Christianity was not directed at me, so far as I'm aware. Unless healing is the case? I gave that up a while back. The only thing I can say is even the devil poses as an angel of light that he may trick who he will. If it was directed to me concerning people who Die a death clinging to what they KNOW is a lie, my answer remains a simple show your evidence and we can discuss these things.
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #196 on: January 09, 2014, 11:40:54 AM »

Can someone provide evidence for this 2 day comma thing?

Quote
A coma can last hours, days or even months. Some people remain in a coma for years, although this is unusual
[1]
Being in a coma for 2 days is entirely feasible and within the realms of known medicine.
Surviving in a coma, without being fed or watered, for more than 2 days is unlikely.
Back in the day people would not have known that they were supposed to feed these apparently dead people.
Hence any longer than a couple of days and the people in coma's that were though to be dead would actually have died from dehydration and all the stuff associated with it.

 
 1. http://www.nhs.uk/Conditions/coma/Pages/Introduction.aspx
« Last Edit: January 09, 2014, 11:43:36 AM by Mrjason »

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #197 on: January 09, 2014, 11:41:33 AM »
This is a specific event not a generalization.
You have to prove that this "specific event" actually happened, not just take what's written in the Bible as the Gospel truth.  More to the point, for someone who claims to have been abducted by a UFO, it was a specific event, not a generalization.  Not only that, but it was a specific event for them - something they claim happened to them personally.  I'll throw in another one as well, people who claim to be the reincarnation of Jesus.  For them, it's a specific event, not a generalization.  The fact remains that it's up to them to prove that those things are actually true - and it's up to you to prove that your own "specific event" happened, even though it was two thousand years ago and occurred to someone else.

Quote from: harbinger77
You provide examples of things people have convinced themselves of by collecting "evidence." UFO abductions for example. These people already believe "they are out there" so to laps into some crazy hallucination based on something you believe to be true is not a long shot. I really think the flat earth guys must be akin to the spaghetti monster guys. It's gotta be a joke. Even  so  these conspiracy types have never been to space. How can they KNOW they believe a lie?
Granted.  But the same goes for you.  You've convinced yourself of something based on the supposed eyewitness testimony in the Bible - which you can't even verify was written by the same people who supposedly witnessed it, let alone whether it actually happened.  So how do you get around this very same problem?  Your own faith can't prove it happened; the faith of every Christian put together can't do that..

Quote from: harbinger77
Jesus was not allowed to hang till death they didn't want him up there during the pass over. He was stabbed in his lung to induce a quicker death. Some would even say Jesus was never Killed. Rather He decided when he was done. He gave up His own ghost. No man could take it from Him.
I thought the Bible said he was stabbed in the side?  Regardless, the whole story of the crucifixion is apocryphal.  The nails that were supposedly used on him (instead of the ropes used to tie ordinary criminals to their own crosses), being stabbed, all of it - it's based on stuff written in the Bible and has no corroborating evidence, let alone verification.  We don't even know for sure who actually wrote those stories down.

Quote from: harbinger77
The apostles, and jews still, believed the Messiah would come in power and over throw the Roman empire to establish His kingdom on earth. They never did believe, and still don't, that Jesus would die on a cross. This is what Jews believe and what the apostles were looking for in the Messiah. When jesus died they thought they had the wrong guy.
I thought the apostles were swiftly converted once Jesus "rose from the dead"?  Which is another apocryphal story.  We don't even know if there was a tomb, let alone if anyone was ever buried there.

Quote from: harbinger77
That being true, and it is. They would KNOW for a fact they made it up. First hand account. Why would they die for a KNOWN lie? Why would a jew run around telling people the Messiah came when it was totally contrary to what the jews held about the Messiah?
I think the point that other people are trying to make to you is that it doesn't matter whether someone knows that something is a lie or not.  If it is a lie, then them believing it true doesn't make it any less of a lie.

Quote from: harbinger77
stabbed in the lung, beaten to near death, hung on a cross. and survived with no medical attention. You still have the ascension to account for. Also witnessed by the apostles.
Assuming any of it ever happened in the first place.  Assuming the apostles were real people, and that they witnessed a real event.

Quote from: harbinger77
Can someone provide evidence for this 2 day comma thing? And botched crucifictions too. It sounds like speculation to me.
First off, the whole point of crucifixion was to deliver a slow, agonizing death.  That's why this business of Jesus being stabbed to hasten his death is so suspect.  If anything, the usual method to hasten death was breaking the legs.  Stabbing was usually reserved for ensuring that someone was already dead and not faking it[1].

Second, considering that people have survived firing squads, hangings, electrocution, and even being impaled, why would you assume that crucifixion was somehow a foolproof way to kill someone?  Some people can just take a lot of punishment without dying from it, to the point where they look dead.  If you then assume they are dead and, say, bury them, they could wake up later on.

I don't have anything regarding delaying three days to declare someone dead, so I'll leave that for someone else.  However, even modern doctors have occasionally declared someone dead who isn't, so it's not hard to believe that ancient doctors, with far less medical knowledge, could do the same thing.
 1. http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080528084041AA6Znch

yes the same goes for me... I'm not the focus here. The focus is the apostles.

I suppose I could search for the works and quotes of the historians... but I think this is pretty fair. Do I need to go deeper?

http://www.evidenceforchristianity.org/what-is-the-evidence-for-the-martyrdom-of-the-apostles-which-is-often-used-to-support-the-believability-of-the-resurrection/

You supply only a good story. I think your weak link lies in the Romans. They would have killed the surviving criminal. Just as we do today. His legs remained  unbroken fulfilling prophesy.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken

His death was hastened because of the pass over being the next day. I've already covered that though. Even if he didn't really die. Which i won't concede. You still have the ascension....
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #198 on: January 09, 2014, 11:50:04 AM »
I guess now that we have some bona fide examples of non-Christian martyrs, harbinger has dropped that as a topic......oookay then. &)

harbinger, are you going to answer my questions about who qualifies as a martyr?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Hatter23

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #199 on: January 09, 2014, 11:59:03 AM »
You made the counterclaim that people of all faiths are tortured yet never give up their gods or religion or even lack of even unto a horrid death. I want to read personal examples not conjecture... from the way you describe it, it should take a few seconds... So where is it?


Every Jew that didn't convert during the inquistion is a nice IIRC 20,000 examples to start with.
The victims of King Harald of Norway also come to mind
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #200 on: January 09, 2014, 12:37:07 PM »
1) I really think the flat earth guys must be akin to the spaghetti monster guys. It's gotta be a joke. Even  so  these conspiracy types have never been to space. How can they KNOW they believe a lie?

2) stabbed in the lung, beaten to near death, hung on a cross. and survived with no medical attention. You still have the ascension to account for. Also witnessed by the apostles.

3) Can someone provide evidence for this 2 day comma thing? And botched crucifictions too. It sounds like speculation to me.

1) It is always easier to see other people's mistakes than your own. Other people can see that your ideas and religion are a joke more easily than you can.

2) You really don't want to move on to the ascension as evidence do you? It is such an obvious literary device based on biblical cosmology. You can modernise it if you want to, by saying that Jesus was beamed up to a UFO. Some people say that. No doubt you think they are joking.

3) You are setting up a mental block against ideas, which you don't like. Be more aware of your own emotional reasons and motives for your beliefs. I think you implied earlier that you had been in dangerous situations where you had to kill people. I totally understand why military people have a psychological need to lessen the impact of their situation through religion and through the belief that there is more than just this life.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #201 on: January 09, 2014, 12:55:07 PM »
yes the same goes for me... I'm not the focus here. The focus is the apostles.

I suppose I could search for the works and quotes of the historians... but I think this is pretty fair. Do I need to go deeper?

http://www.evidenceforchristianity.org/what-is-the-evidence-for-the-martyrdom-of-the-apostles-which-is-often-used-to-support-the-believability-of-the-resurrection/
That isn't even close to evidence.  First off, it provides no sources whatsoever for its information, meaning that it's questionable at best.  Second, it refers to things which might or might not be true - such as James being executed by Herod Antipas.  Third, it doesn't even attempt to corroborate things the Bible claims with things written about in contemporary accounts.  In short, it's just his opinion - and given how cavalierly he treats the whole thing, it isn't what I'd call an informed opinion.

Quote from: harbinger77
You supply only a good story. I think your weak link lies in the Romans. They would have killed the surviving criminal. Just as we do today. His legs remained  unbroken fulfilling prophesy.
36 These things happened so that the scripture would be fulfilled: "Not one of his bones will be broken
Haven't you realized that the authors of the Bible would have been well aware of what the prophecies said and very likely would have modified things to account for them, whether or not they were actually true?  There are plenty of recorded instances of ancient scribes modifying their transcriptions of more ancient writings in order to make more sense.

And that's just one kind of intentional scribal error.  Here's a good article which gives information on several kinds of scribal errors, both intentional and not:  http://blog.ancientlives.org/2013/05/06/scribal-error-in-biblical-manuscripts/

Quote from: harbinger77
His death was hastened because of the pass over being the next day. I've already covered that though. Even if he didn't really die. Which i won't concede. You still have the ascension....
I say again, you have to prove that this whole crucifixion thing happened in the first place - not merely keep saying it did.

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Re: Oh no! Not the Fibonacci again!
« Reply #202 on: January 09, 2014, 03:44:31 PM »
I guess now that we have some bona fide examples of non-Christian martyrs, harbinger has dropped that as a topic......oookay then. &)

harbinger, are you going to answer my questions about who qualifies as a martyr?

You missed Post #184.. the martyer question was answered several times as well...
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