Author Topic: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?  (Read 12543 times)

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #551 on: November 18, 2013, 05:36:45 PM »
<snip>With the obvious exception of China...

This is being relaxed http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-24983007

I don't think it's because of any ethical concerns though, more a realisation that if economic growth is to continue at it's current rate they will need to replace an ageing workforce

edit a bit of context
Quote
The slow of the labor force growth in China is one of the consequences of the one child per couple policy in the 20th century. In addition, this could lead to a fast ageing of the Chinese population during the next 45 years and expected decrease in its working age population
[1]
 1. http://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/32558/

Chinese population planners always said the one-child program was a temporary measure to slow the growth rate and boost economic expansion. Now that they have made their targets, they can relax the one-child rule. It is hard to blame them for doing something, with over a billion people--three times the population in the same land area as the US. And they knew what famines and the starvation of millions looked like....not pretty.

Abortion was never about US-style ethical or religious concerns, not in a country where looking at the wrong political websites can get you life in prison and embezzlement of public funds can get you the death penalty! The country could not afford more than x new babies per year, so the pregnancies that were not approved of in advance were gotten rid of. Even at 6 months!  :( :'(

Very straightforward. Very rational. Ethics was about not producing babies that the society could not feed, educate and provide a job for. In that sense, the Chinese planners could argue that abortion was far more ethical than having babies that would reduce everyone's living standard.  :P

The preference for sons skewing the population so much is the one factor they did not forsee. Millions of men without wives in the forseeable future. :o
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #552 on: November 18, 2013, 05:51:34 PM »
I hope you read the article that explained what "abortion is essential to reducing population growth" meant. It did not say that abortion is the best thing to slow growth rates. It said that abortion had to be available to women who wanted fewer children, especially when certain qualifiers were also present. 

The qualifiers included a population with lots of young fertile age women who have a low rate of contraceptive compliance.  That can mean they don't want to get pregnant, but have limited access to reliable methods, or their sex lives are kind of random and they can't plan ahead, or the men they are with won't let them use birth control.

So, I am not sure that "essential" here means what you were implying. Many of the poor countries struggle with keeping abortion-- and contraception-- legal, due to pressure from religious and political groups. Some of these groups are in the US, trying to influence the public health policies of other countries.  (I am sure we would not want China or Russia to try pressuring our government about our population policies or lack thereof.) 

Also, remember that these population control programs are not just into pushing abortion on women. They would much prefer that women who want fewer children use contraceptives.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #553 on: November 18, 2013, 06:08:30 PM »
The only other constitutionally protected right which is argued for and against as strongly as abortion is owning guns. Ironically, proponents of one right often are against the other...arguments from both sides involving elements of life, death and individual liberty. It may not be your holy grail but some people are certainly willing to kill or die for their moral convictions surrounding abortion.
It isn't my holy grail to begin with.  Though, it is ironic that many people in support of gun ownership tend to be anti-abortion, and vice versa.

Quote from: Mr. Blackwell
I am well aware of that. I would be just as against forcing a woman to have an abortion as I am about banning abortions outright.
So what is the problem then?  Most pro-choice people advocate against both.

Quote from: Mr. Blackwell
I did not form my opinions in a vacuum. No nation desirous of reducing its growth rate to 1% or less can expect to do so without the widespread use of abortion. This observational study, based on the experience of 116 of the world's largest countries, supports the contention that abortion is essential to any national population growth control effort.

While our government (USA) hasn't gone so far as to legislate prohibitive reproduction rights...it supports and encourages voluntary participation.
With all due respect, this is a scientific study, one I would argue it is not representative of the mainstream pro-choice movement.  Most Americans who form opinions on abortions do not do so because of the population growth rate, though certainly some do.

Quote from: Mr. Blackwell
I am not against abortion. I would never call for abortion to become an illegal practice. However, it is a pro death movement. In America it is a method of culling the herd and it is a preferable method because it grants individual choice.
I don't agree.  You are conflating the pro-choice movement in general with the much smaller number of people who support abortion as population control.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #554 on: November 18, 2013, 06:35:00 PM »
So what is the problem then?

In a nutshell?

The title and subject of this thread. I thought it would be fun to participate in the spirit of the OP and turn conventional views on their head.

Saying that abortion is the kindest thing one can do for another being is just as repugnant and offensive a subject to me as saying pro-choice is a culture of death.
I show affection for my pets by holding them against me and whispering, "I love you" repeatedly as they struggle to break free.

Online Mrjason

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #555 on: November 19, 2013, 06:23:50 AM »
Chinese population planners always said the one-child program was a temporary measure to slow the growth rate and boost economic expansion. Now that they have made their targets, they can relax the one-child rule. It is hard to blame them for doing something, with over a billion people--three times the population in the same land area as the US. And they knew what famines and the starvation of millions looked like....not pretty.

Abortion was never about US-style ethical or religious concerns, not in a country where looking at the wrong political websites can get you life in prison and embezzlement of public funds can get you the death penalty! The country could not afford more than x new babies per year, so the pregnancies that were not approved of in advance were gotten rid of. Even at 6 months!  :( :'(

Very straightforward. Very rational. Ethics was about not producing babies that the society could not feed, educate and provide a job for. In that sense, the Chinese planners could argue that abortion was far more ethical than having babies that would reduce everyone's living standard.  :P

Yep, rational solution. 
Ignoring the state enforcement, I'm inclined to agree with the ethical reasoning.

The preference for sons skewing the population so much is the one factor they did not forsee. Millions of men without wives in the forseeable future. :o

I had a look at this[1]

at birth: 1.12 male(s)/female
0-14 years: 1.17 male(s)/female (male 124,773,577/female 107,286,198)
15-24 years: 1.11 male(s)/female (male 109,922,192/female 98,325,568)

Thats about 30 million single men in want of a wife  :-\
 1. https://www.cia.gov/library/publications/the-world-factbook/geos/ch.html

Offline Wasserbuffel

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #556 on: November 19, 2013, 10:50:21 AM »
Quote
Saying that abortion is the kindest thing one can do for another being is just as repugnant and offensive a subject to me as saying pro-choice is a culture of death.

The OP wasn't advocating it as such, it was just asking a philosophical question based on the belief system followed by many anti-choicers; e.g. that souls are granted at conception and aborted ZEFs go directly to heaven and have a zero chance of burning in eternal hellfire.

It's a valid question.

When the price of failure is so dire, wouldn't doing the one act that guarantees zero chance of failure be the only appropriate and loving response?

We're talking freaking HELLFIRE here, burning, searing pain that continues for eternity. What's never being born[1] in comparison to that?  How can anyone who truly believes in hellfire take such a chance with their child's eternity? 
 1. Or even developing to a state where one has what could be called a body.

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #557 on: November 19, 2013, 10:54:11 AM »
When the price of failure is so dire, wouldn't doing the one act that guarantees zero chance of failure be the only appropriate and loving response?

Unless you happen to be in a religion that requires say... baptism or an actual profession of faith to Jesus.  In that case Hell is full of Fetus and Zygotes.  Given the rate of natural abortion it probably sounds like popcorn.

Isn't faith grand?



*fixed bad quote box
« Last Edit: November 23, 2013, 11:33:34 AM by MadBunny »
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Offline Wasserbuffel

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #558 on: November 19, 2013, 11:06:15 AM »
True, but the OP seemed to be addressing those who believe aborted = no hell.

It's hard to keep up though!  You can't find your way among the thousands of paths labeled "Christianity, this way to Heaven", without stumbling over and over into paths leading instead to hellfire.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #559 on: November 21, 2013, 04:50:08 PM »
Saying that abortion is the kindest thing one can do for another being is just as repugnant and offensive a subject to me as saying pro-choice is a culture of death.
I think the title was an attempt to get Christians to think about abortion.  Specifically, why be opposed to it if it sends human souls to heaven before they have the chance to sin, etc, etc?

Personally, I don't think it's a very effective line of argument.  It underestimates the power of human rationalization.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #560 on: November 21, 2013, 05:22:38 PM »
Also, the believer has to ignore miscarriages, the many more millions of abortions that are caused by their loving god.....

Because if god wants more souls in heaven and all lost zygote souls and fetus souls go straight to be with god, abortion clinics are really helping to do god's will. Believers should certainly not be picketing and threatening Planned Parenthood.

If anything, believers should be grabbing every woman of childbearing age and forcing her to get an abortion every month. Just in case.  &)

Don't expect consistent logic here...
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #561 on: November 23, 2013, 11:29:39 AM »
Don't expect consistent logic here...
Agreed, but they're quite capable of being inconsistent without anyone else asserting that they should be even more inconsistent in order to be consistent.

Offline epidemic

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #562 on: March 12, 2014, 09:47:07 AM »
But on-topic, no matter how much weight one gives to that "potential" - key or not - the same reasoning applies regarding sperm and egg vs fertilized egg.  Potential exists in both cases.
You can certainly argue that a sperm and egg cell have potential, but it simply isn't the same thing as with a fertilized egg, never mind an embryo or a baby.  For example, for every sperm cell that successfully implants an egg cell, millions upon millions fail and die.  Never mind the far greater number of sperm cells that don't get the chance to in the first place.  The biological reality is that almost all sperm cells are simply fated to die without ever accomplishing anything meaningful.

ahh the old most sperm die argument.  I believe that the stats on fertilized eggs reaching maturity are staggering.

Most pregnancies end with the little fertilized blastocyst in the toilet or reabsorbed by mom.  So if most pregnancies do not reach term I guess abortion is ok.

That said, the topic really addresses the idea that, a religious abortion doctor who risks helfire is among the most selfless people on earth.  By his suffering 10's of thousands of souls will make it to heaven who would otherwise end up in hell given a lifetime of bad choices.

by aborting that little tinsy tiny baby the baby is fast tracked to infinite joy and love with out any human suffering.  All because one doctor decided that his mortal soul was less important than the 10's of thousands he could save.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #563 on: March 12, 2014, 10:12:44 AM »
Is it really a good idea to reopen an discussion that effectively concluded nearly four months ago, epidemic?

Offline epidemic

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #564 on: March 12, 2014, 10:18:51 AM »
I don't know.

I visit on occasion and I decided to respond to a post.  Is it harmful to bring a thread out of retirement?  If no one finds value in what I wrote then it will die a proper death once again.