Author Topic: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?  (Read 19861 times)

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Offline Jag

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #522 on: November 16, 2013, 11:44:49 AM »
I do consider abortion to be a moral concern, but it's neither a moral positive or a moral negative.  It's...how to put this...it's a decision that can only be made by a moral agent, and that should only be made by the moral agents directly involved in it.  Does that make sense?
I've been struggling with how to articulate this myself. Your posts in this thread have helped me to clarify my thinking and my position on this as well, so thank you for your efforts and for sharing them.
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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #523 on: November 16, 2013, 12:05:51 PM »
I wasn't all that good at making myself clear.  I have a tendency to do that sometimes, especially when it's something that I think should be clear, or at least reasonably clear.  It always surprises me when that happens, and not in a pleasant way.

Don't feel bad. Many of us are in the same boat with people.

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This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #524 on: November 16, 2013, 02:39:31 PM »
Quicky question that just popped into my head and I didn't want to start a whole new thread on it.

What would have happened to God's plan if Mary had an abortion instead?
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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #525 on: November 16, 2013, 03:00:21 PM »
A possible counterargument against the OP's argument:
Ah, you see, but aborting a baby[1] would rob it of its free will to follow DA LAWD.
 1. Even if it's just a zygote, to the "Once you're out of the uterus, you're on your own"/pro-death penalty/religitards/et cetera crowd, it's a baby.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #526 on: November 16, 2013, 04:22:34 PM »
How is it that you can create, in your mind, a distinction between "pro-death" and "pro-choice"? You are still advocating the death of living organisms with "pro choice" are you not? How can you believe that one is morally inferior to the other?

So...one cluster of human cells deserves more rights than the other cluster of human cells?  How does that figure into any definition of equality?
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Online One Above All

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #527 on: November 16, 2013, 04:26:36 PM »
How is it that you can create, in your mind, a distinction between "pro-death" and "pro-choice"? You are still advocating the death of living organisms with "pro choice" are you not? How can you believe that one is morally inferior to the other?

So...one cluster of human cells deserves more rights than the other cluster of human cells?  How does that figure into any definition of equality?

Well, the smaller cluster of cells didn't do anything wrong (yet), so it deserves to live.

NOTE: This is just what I think pro-death penalty people think when they also claim to be pro-life.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #528 on: November 16, 2013, 04:57:37 PM »
The point is, pro-choice isn't about advocating death.  It's about advocating the right to make moral choices, instead of other people making them for you.

The thing is, a neonate - or whatever you care to call it - is simply not capable of acting as a moral agent.  In a very real sense, it's akin to a person having the right to decide whether an animal that belongs to them should die or not.  How would you feel if someone you didn't even know told you that you don't have the right to decide whether your own pet lives or dies?  The argument isn't just about whether a fetus should live or die, but also whether a woman has the right to make that decision for herself or not - especially since it seriously impacts her own life.

Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #529 on: November 16, 2013, 06:35:03 PM »
I don't have a collection of posts handy, I just know that it comes up a lot when arguing this subject, as an objection to abortion.  And though I don't feel like digging through thousands of posts, I do firmly remember that you yourself brought up "potential to grow into a human being" as being the critical factor in granting moral worth to a neonate in a discussion between the two of us on the topic way back.  Does my memory fool me?  I've asked this twice already in this thread, in different forms...

Maybe it was this?

Having the right DNA is a good start. Actively growing, although I know that tumors grow too but I guess the main quality after being human by virtue of DNA and after the mass of cells growing then It would be a matter of potential I guess. There is no way cancer or any type of tumor could ever develop into a human. If left alone or helped along a fetus could and often does develop into a human.
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Offline shnozzola

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #530 on: November 16, 2013, 09:21:54 PM »
Mr. Blackwell,
   The decision involving pro-choice is realizing that the woman who is pregnant has a range of life decisions to make that no one can make but her.  IMO, using the term pro-death is sad for and demeaning to the woman no matter what you think about her.   I realize many with the prolife view may feel the woman laughs and jokes every couple months on the way to planned parenthood to have the latest mistake taken care of.  The prolife view reminds me of the way the Taliban hate education and freedoms and demand that humanity follow their narrow minded rules, or face imprisonment or worse.

And the other thing about abortion is, no matter how it has been legislated throughout history or into the future, that woman will ALWAYS do what she feels she must - have a baby and risk death against a doctor's orders at one end of the spectrum, to risking medical problems with a coat hanger or in a back alley with a butcher risking death at the other end of the spectrum, after laws passed to stop her.  How dare pro-life people tell that woman what she will do!   In the end, they cannot - her decision is too important to her.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #531 on: November 16, 2013, 09:30:09 PM »
The point is, pro-choice isn't about advocating death.  It's about advocating the right to make moral choices, instead of other people making them for you.

Yet, other people constantly create legislation and make laws which limit our moral choices. What makes abortion the holy grail of individual liberty? 

Quote
The thing is, a neonate - or whatever you care to call it - is simply not capable of acting as a moral agent.
 

Many living things enjoy a protected status based on the fact that they cannot act as a moral agent. Why should a neonate have less protection than Sandplain gerardias?

It's not about individual freedom. The neonate is not rare or in danger of extinction. The neonate is more like an invasive species like the kudzu in the south or lionfish in Florida. It's open season on neonate's.

Abortion is a means of population control. It's not about choice...it is a pro death movement disguised as liberty.
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #532 on: November 16, 2013, 10:22:29 PM »
Yet, other people constantly create legislation and make laws which limit our moral choices. What makes abortion the holy grail of individual liberty?
I seriously doubt that it is, at least in the way that you think it is.

Quote from: Mr. Blackwell
Many living things enjoy a protected status based on the fact that they cannot act as a moral agent. Why should a neonate have less protection than Sandplain gerardias?
Perhaps it's because sandplain gerardias is considerably rarer than human neonates?

Quote from: Mr. Blackwell
It's not about individual freedom. The neonate is not rare or in danger of extinction. The neonate is more like an invasive species like the kudzu in the south or lionfish in Florida. It's open season on neonate's.
No, no it isn't.  What you need to understand - I'm serious about this - is that the abortion movement is not about forcing people to have abortions.  It's about making sure that women continue to have the option to decide for themselves whether they want to have an abortion.

Quote from: Mr. Blackwell
Abortion is a means of population control. It's not about choice...it is a pro death movement disguised as liberty.
Frankly, this is more than a little offensive.  Not because it's your opinion, but because it's so plainly wrong.  You are projecting your own opinions on what the pro-choice movement must mean, instead of listening to people who actually know what it actually stands for, and then assuming that your own opinions must be accurate.

Instead of making emotionally-charged accusations based on your own opinions, why not take some time and listen to people who do know what it's about?  Then we can have a reasonable discussion, instead of trying to fend off your accusations (which you don't support with actual facts).

Offline MadBunny

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #533 on: November 16, 2013, 10:41:58 PM »
It's not about individual freedom.

How do you figure? 

This issue is entirely about individual freedom.
Ride down the slippery slope that leads to claiming that her eggs are sacred and she shouldn't be allowed to endanger them, to the opposite side of the hill that says a woman should be allowed to drown her baby at birth if it's deformed.

Does a woman have the right to decide what happens with her own body?  Not the state, not you, not me, not the sperm contributor.  Just her.
Once you distill down all the arguments, this is what it comes to.

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #534 on: November 16, 2013, 11:36:15 PM »
You are still advocating the death of living organisms with "pro choice" are you not?

So does a doctor prescribing antibiotics.  You need to be more specific to avoid saying dumb stuff like this.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #535 on: November 17, 2013, 12:49:22 AM »
Yet, other people constantly create legislation and make laws which limit our moral choices. What makes abortion the holy grail of individual liberty?
I seriously doubt that it is, at least in the way that you think it is.
The only other constitutionally protected right which is argued for and against as strongly as abortion is owning guns. Ironically, proponents of one right often are against the other...arguments from both sides involving elements of life, death and individual liberty. It may not be your holy grail but some people are certainly willing to kill or die for their moral convictions surrounding abortion.


Quote from: jaimehlers
Quote from: Mr. Blackwell
It's not about individual freedom. The neonate is not rare or in danger of extinction. The neonate is more like an invasive species like the kudzu in the south or lionfish in Florida. It's open season on neonate's.
No, no it isn't.  What you need to understand - I'm serious about this - is that the abortion movement is not about forcing people to have abortions.
I am well aware of that. I would be just as against forcing a woman to have an abortion as I am about banning abortions outright. 

Quote from: jaimehlers
Quote from: Mr. Blackwell
Abortion is a means of population control. It's not about choice...it is a pro death movement disguised as liberty.
Frankly, this is more than a little offensive.  Not because it's your opinion, but because it's so plainly wrong.  You are projecting your own opinions on what the pro-choice movement must mean, instead of listening to people who actually know what it actually stands for, and then assuming that your own opinions must be accurate.

I did not form my opinions in a vacuum. No nation desirous of reducing its growth rate to 1% or less can expect to do so without the widespread use of abortion. This observational study, based on the experience of 116 of the world's largest countries, supports the contention that abortion is essential to any national population growth control effort.

While our government (USA) hasn't gone so far as to legislate prohibitive reproduction rights...it supports and encourages voluntary participation. 

Quote from: jaimehlers
Instead of making emotionally-charged accusations based on your own opinions, why not take some time and listen to people who do know what it's about?  Then we can have a reasonable discussion, instead of trying to fend off your accusations (which you don't support with actual facts).

I am not against abortion. I would never call for abortion to become an illegal practice. However, it is a pro death movement. In America it is a method of culling the herd and it is a preferable method because it grants individual choice.

It's not about individual freedom.

How do you figure? 

This issue is entirely about individual freedom.
Ride down the slippery slope that leads to claiming that her eggs are sacred and she shouldn't be allowed to endanger them, to the opposite side of the hill that says a woman should be allowed to drown her baby at birth if it's deformed.

Does a woman have the right to decide what happens with her own body?  Not the state, not you, not me, not the sperm contributor.  Just her.
Once you distill down all the arguments, this is what it comes to.

Boil it down however you like. It's still pro death. Why is that so hard for you to acknowledge?

You are still advocating the death of living organisms with "pro choice" are you not?

So does a doctor prescribing antibiotics.  You need to be more specific to avoid saying dumb stuff like this.

I hope my previous responses in this reply help clarify my position.
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #536 on: November 17, 2013, 01:03:56 AM »
You are still advocating the death of living organisms with "pro choice" are you not?

So does a doctor prescribing antibiotics.  You need to be more specific to avoid saying dumb stuff like this.

I hope my previous responses in this reply help clarify my position.

That has nothing at all to do with what I said.  Just as this:
I did not form my opinions in a vacuum. No nation desirous of reducing its growth rate to 1% or less can expect to do so without the widespread use of abortion. This observational study, based on the experience of 116 of the world's largest countries, supports the contention that abortion is essential to any national population growth control effort.

While our government (USA) hasn't gone so far as to legislate prohibitive reproduction rights...it supports and encourages voluntary participation.
...has nothing to do with addressing this:
Quote from: jaimehlers
Frankly, this is more than a little offensive.  Not because it's your opinion, but because it's so plainly wrong.  You are projecting your own opinions on what the pro-choice movement must mean, instead of listening to people who actually know what it actually stands for, and then assuming that your own opinions must be accurate.

Are you trolling on purpose, sir?
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Offline MadBunny

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #537 on: November 17, 2013, 01:04:20 AM »
Quote from: Mr Blackwell
Quote from: Madbunny
It's not about individual freedom.

How do you figure? 

This issue is entirely about individual freedom.
Ride down the slippery slope that leads to claiming that her eggs are sacred and she shouldn't be allowed to endanger them, to the opposite side of the hill that says a woman should be allowed to drown her baby at birth if it's deformed.

Does a woman have the right to decide what happens with her own body?  Not the state, not you, not me, not the sperm contributor.  Just her.
Once you distill down all the arguments, this is what it comes to.

Boil it down however you like. It's still pro death. Why is that so hard for you to acknowledge?


It isn't.


At some point we're all ok with killing in one form or another.

I happen to think that killing a 'potential human'[1] that cannot survive on it's own is acceptable.  For that matter, there are grown adults that I'm perfectly happy admitting the world and human race is better off without.

Most of us, if we're being honest can probably come up with at least half a dozen specific sets of circumstances where we would be comfortable with the idea of ending a life, let alone a 'potential human'.
 1. I swear that phrase always makes me think  gom jabbar.

I get that you think it's killing, what I want to know instead is where you draw the line on individual freedom.
Does a woman have the right to decide what happens with her own body?  Not the State, not me, not you, just her.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #538 on: November 17, 2013, 01:20:08 AM »
I suppose that I should just refrain if someone is going to use phrases like "culling the herd" in discussions about whether women themselves or someone else decides whether she has a baby. Because someone is going to decide.

I was not quite so adamantly pro-choice until I myself was faced with a high-risk pregnancy. An enormous tumor was found inside my uterus alongside the fetus. And the medical people asked if I wanted to continue. I did not have to go to a judge and lay all the details of my personal life before him. I did not have to apply to some review board and hope they agreed with what I and my doctor had decided. I did not have to just face possible death and massive medical expenses with no legal recourse. Because it was my decision to make.

I decided to go forward and try to have the baby. I had already lost one pregnancy and this was going to be our last try. The health problems were going to cause the pregnancy to be pretty intense. But I had a husband who was going to stick by me. I had health insurance and good medical facilities. I had transportation and an apartment. I had an income. I had a network of friends. Lacking any one of those things and I would probably have decided not to try to continue. 

It still turned out to be one of the hardest things I have ever done in my life. I ended up unable to eat anything by mouth, spending several months on TPN. I had several surgeries.  It was painful to walk across the room. I could not work or travel. I was on experimental drugs that kept me awake all night. I had to give myself injections. It was stressful beyond belief. But it was my choice to do it.

My pregnancy experience made me radically pro-choice. I would never ask any other woman to risk her life, health and sanity by remaining pregnant if she does not want to be.

In China the government decides, usually, that the woman will not have the baby. No matter what the woman wanted. In Romania in the 1970's the government decided that, usually, the woman would have the baby. No matter what the woman wanted. In both cases, you could argue that the government had a pro-death policy. In China the fetuses die. In Romania the women died--sometimes after having 12 pregnancies-- along with the fetus.

In an imperfect world where there are definitely enough people it seems absurd to argue that someone other than the pregnant woman herself--the government, a church, a court, someone who really likes babies, whoever,  should be able to decide for her.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #539 on: November 17, 2013, 01:23:49 AM »
I get that you think it's killing, what I want to know instead is where you draw the line on individual freedom.
Does a woman have the right to decide what happens with her own body?  Not the State, not me, not you, just her.

I know from previous comments that you and I are not too different on this issue. Yes, a woman absolutely has the right to decide what happens with her own body.

But abortion is not about individual freedom. Abortion is about population control. That is the primary reason that it is legal.

Personally I like the idea that, in most modern societies, abortion is an elective procedure. The alternative is a horror show. If the American government ever came to the conclusion that it must force abortion on women in order to facilitate population control...I would take up arms against my government...assuming some bleeding heart liberals haven't taken that right from me by that point.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #540 on: November 17, 2013, 02:28:43 AM »
You are still advocating the death of living organisms with "pro choice" are you not?

So does a doctor prescribing antibiotics.  You need to be more specific to avoid saying dumb stuff like this.

I hope my previous responses in this reply help clarify my position.

That has nothing at all to do with what I said.  Just as this:
I did not form my opinions in a vacuum. No nation desirous of reducing its growth rate to 1% or less can expect to do so without the widespread use of abortion. This observational study, based on the experience of 116 of the world's largest countries, supports the contention that abortion is essential to any national population growth control effort.

While our government (USA) hasn't gone so far as to legislate prohibitive reproduction rights...it supports and encourages voluntary participation.
...has nothing to do with addressing this:
Quote from: jaimehlers
Frankly, this is more than a little offensive.  Not because it's your opinion, but because it's so plainly wrong.  You are projecting your own opinions on what the pro-choice movement must mean, instead of listening to people who actually know what it actually stands for, and then assuming that your own opinions must be accurate.

Are you trolling on purpose, sir?

Can you not understand my position at all? What I mean to say is ... are you really that dense...or are you just being deliberately obtuse?

*looks around* (I know I got a spoon around here somewhere) *FOUND IT!* (Here, let me feed you)

1. My personal beliefs about whether abortion is "right" or "wrong" do not factor into the equation.

2. Abortion is a constitutionally protected right in the U.S. of A.

3. I swore an oath to protect the constitution.

4. I take that oath seriously.

5. My personal belief is that nobody should ever be forced to do something against their will.

6. Who the hell knows what six is?
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #541 on: November 17, 2013, 02:46:53 AM »
And that, in turn, has nothing to do with what I said in my last post or what I quoted in my last post.

Are you trolling on purpose, sir?  (I wouldn't be asking this if anything you'd said had related in any way to anything I'd said, and if you hadn't done the same to Jaime)
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #542 on: November 17, 2013, 01:51:42 PM »
From a rational cost-benefit analysis, I should not have been allowed to go through with my last pregnancy, and should have just been referred to an adoption agency. I am so happy that nobody told me I could not continue my pregnancy even if I wanted to, because it would be too costly and risky. We used a ridiculous amount of medical resources in that one year-- probably more than a woman in China gets in her whole lifetime.

Luckily for us, we don't have a one-child mandate here like they had in China, although rationally, we should. We can have all the kids we want, whether we as a society can feed and house and educate them or not. We are already at replacement with about 2 kids per family, although we still use more of the world's resources than any other country.

We don't--and probably never will, if the response to the limited health care program of  Obamacare is any indication-- have an economic system that says everyone is entitled to food, a job or medical care like they tried to do in China. The concept of doing something you don't want to do for the betterment of the whole society is foreign and even repugnant to us. Obligation to others is as old in China as Confucius. 

I understand the idea that in the US nobody likes being forced to do what they don't want to do. We are very individualistic and independent that way. If our government outlawed all forms of birth control and said we had to have a baby every year, we would revolt and refuse to have children at all. I can hear the libertarians: "Eff the government-- who are those bureaucrats to tell me what to do with my body? I'll die from abstinence before I make 12 babies for the state."

If the government said we could only have one child per family, we would all have 5 kids, just because. I can hear the libertarians: "Eff the government-- who are those bureaucrats to tell me what to do with my body? Don't talk to me about limited resources. I'll make a baby every year if I want to." In the US we only obey big corporations....
 
Abortion can definitely be used to control population. But it is not the best way, since it is more expensive and harder on a woman's body than anything she might use to prevent the pregnancy in the first place. Even with side effects, the pill, the IUD and implants are far less intrusive and risky than using abortion as birth control.

The Soviet Union did not permit many forms of birth control, so women had several abortions--some as many as 10!-- in their lives. I think that having that many abortions was a horrendous thing to go through. It would have to be a rather desperate situation for women to do that. Because clearly, the alternative was either celibacy or to have 10 or more children. At least in China there are many forms of birth control, so abortion is the backup plan for when the other forms don't work. (Or when the woman wants a baby and the government says the country can't afford it.)

Again, we are lucky that we don't have a world government, because the world would have voted our greedy overprivileged a$$es off the island long ago.  :P



Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Wasserbuffel

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #543 on: November 18, 2013, 10:05:31 AM »
If the American government was at all interested in population control one place to start would be with campaigning the people to reduce their family sizes. It could remove child tax credits, making having children even more expensive so people would do less of it. Theoretically.  Both of those things come without the stigma that abortion has, plus express active involvement on the government's part to control population that legalizing abortion in hopes that people limit their fertility that way doesn't.

It's completely absurd to believe the government has any secret population control agenda where abortion is concerned.  Especially since so many representatives are fighting to restrict its availability.

Aside:
I keep seeing the word neonate in this thread in reference to zygotes and fetuses. This is wrong. A neonate is a newborn baby, so unless we're talking infanticide, this term is not appropriate.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #544 on: November 18, 2013, 11:50:25 AM »
^^^Agreed. Abortion is the least effective method of population control--it is not anyone's optimal choice. What woman would rather have lots of intrusive, painful medical abortions if she could take a daily pill or have an implant instead? Abortion is, in the vast majority of cases, the last resort when other methods were not available, not used or have failed to work.

Urbanization, educating women and providing extensive social services[1] have proven to be the most effective ways of lowering family size.

With the obvious exception of China, the population outlier in every sense, every region that has gotten to replacement has done it without forcing women to have abortions.
 1. so people don't have to rely on large families for survival
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #545 on: November 18, 2013, 11:52:59 AM »
A possible counterargument against the OP's argument:
Ah, you see, but aborting a baby[1] would rob it of its free will to follow DA LAWD.
 1. Even if it's just a zygote, to the "Once you're out of the uterus, you're on your own"/pro-death penalty/religitards/et cetera crowd, it's a baby.

Well religious folks often tell me that suffering felt in 80 years of life is kinda insignificant compared with eternity in heaven.  So I am robbing someone of an insignificant portion of their existience, and insuring that they receive their reward faster.   As for robbing them of free will???  I personally feel as if I do not have free will.  I have concluded that god is imaginary based upon my analysis of the facts.  To believe in him now would simply be to go against my own mind.  It would be fake for me to claim it and virtually impossible for me to change my opinion were I to die in the next few minutes. 

I was born, I saw life and information and made a conclusion, I see little to no chance for free will.  I do not disbelieve in god because I don't like him, I do not believe because I have concluded that any and all gods are false.  I may change my mind given new evidence,  but if I am to be judged on the information i have gleened during my short existence and punished for all eternity for my error in analysis I would prefer that someone had allowed me to skip the life where I made an error which resulted in eternal sufferning.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #546 on: November 18, 2013, 11:59:14 AM »
<snip>With the obvious exception of China...

This is being relaxed http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-china-24983007

I don't think it's because of any ethical concerns though, more a realisation that if economic growth is to continue at it's current rate they will need to replace an ageing workforce

edit a bit of context
Quote
The slow of the labor force growth in China is one of the consequences of the one child per couple policy in the 20th century. In addition, this could lead to a fast ageing of the Chinese population during the next 45 years and expected decrease in its working age population
[1]
 1. http://mpra.ub.uni-muenchen.de/32558/
« Last Edit: November 18, 2013, 12:15:43 PM by Mrjason »

Offline epidemic

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #547 on: November 18, 2013, 12:12:47 PM »
The only other constitutionally protected right which is argued for and against as strongly as abortion is owning guns. Ironically, proponents of one right often are against the other...arguments from both sides involving elements of life, death and individual liberty. It may not be your holy grail but some people are certainly willing to kill or die for their moral convictions surrounding abortion.



Interesting point.  Your odds of dying during child birth might be equivalent to your odds of being shot down in a street gang assault on your house.  I am for killing thugs as well as embryos.  But it is funny how the religious right are worried about saving their families from an assault by evil doers, but totally disregard the simple fact that the mother risks her life every time she gives birth and a similar rate.

I say similar rate because we need to really weed out the things that don't apply to the average middle class gun owners risk factors.

Not belonging to a gang, not comitting robberies, not getting into street fights over turf and not walking down dark allys all reduce the chances of murder down to tremendously low levels.  The average CCW holder does not really need a gun ever in their life.

I am not for taking that right away,  I enjoy the right to keep and bear arms but statistically speaking my wife having 4 kids was probably more dangerous than all of my life experiences.

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #548 on: November 18, 2013, 12:19:52 PM »
<snip>

Hey, it's a religious argument. Did you expect it to be flawless?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #549 on: November 18, 2013, 04:32:15 PM »
What makes you think that I'm applying some arbitrary line and saying, "before this point, potential does not exist, and after this point, it's paramount"?  Is it so difficult to understand that I realize that potential exists on both sides of the line I chose to draw, but it isn't some static value that stays the same?

It is not hard to understand once you've explained.  If you've elaborated prior to this post, I've missed it. And as such, it just looked like you have simply made assertions, as if they were self evident, and left it at that.

[/quote]I apologize for that, and I'll give you a plus to make up for my earlier smite when I get the chance.
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Offline Mr. Blackwell

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #550 on: November 18, 2013, 05:33:12 PM »
^^^Agreed. Abortion is the least effective method of population control--

But it is essential.


It's completely absurd to believe the government has any secret population control agenda where abortion is concerned.  Especially since so many representatives are fighting to restrict its availability.

It's not a secret and our representatives are not always on the same page....much less the same book.
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