Author Topic: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?  (Read 12736 times)

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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #377 on: November 05, 2013, 10:36:45 AM »
I have to say, I believe life begins at conception. 

Why do you believe this?  I'm not going to argue back.  But for the life of me, I cannot understand why people think a single cell, or a lump of cells smaller than a fly's brain, is a person.  And absent belief in a soul, I just don't get it.

For me, it is not about "life".  The ova is, technically, alive.  Every one of the millions of sperm cells are alive.  So what?  The questions for me are, when it is a person, and why does it get more right to a uterus than the owner of the uterus?

I agree.  Consider also: a bacteria is exactly as "alive" as the embryo is in its first few weeks, often more so.  A tapeworm is certainly more alive, as are head lice.  We'll stamp those out without a moment's hesitation, so "life" clearly isn't the issue.  As you say, its being a "person".
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline shnozzola

Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #378 on: November 05, 2013, 07:59:01 PM »
   Remember, I am pro-choice.  Guys, I understand the view you have of the clump of cells.  But in my mind, the potential of those only human cells - not chicken, not fish, not plant, not fruit fly cells - are what sets the cells apart.  We all draw the line somewhere.  I guess under cross examination by the lawyer, my view would force me to admit to the jury that abortion at that stage is murder.  In that light I am more emotional than logical.   Your view allows you to not admit that abortion at that stage is murder.  But all these are our own views, our own decisions, the way it should be.

Like I have said here a while ago, my wife has a pressed flower for a three week old ectopic pregnancy that was a clump of cells.  We cannot have children, we cannot afford invitro.  Ce la vie.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #379 on: November 05, 2013, 09:47:13 PM »
Yes, that group of cells is potentially a human baby. The pregnancy I lost has a name and a gender---completely imaginary but real to me. I do understand the pressed flower. :'(

Nevertheless, making abortion illegal causes far more problems to real life babies and children. And we have to at some point allow grown women to decide whether or not they will  become mothers. Otherwise women are just baby-producers for their male partners, or the state or for the right kind of people.
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Offline DrTesla

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #380 on: November 05, 2013, 09:54:45 PM »
   I have to say, I believe life begins at conception.  I believe abortion is not a good idea because of this.  Anyone coming to me for counsel would get the " you have a tiny innocent life growing inside of you, and that should be a consideration in your decision."

   However, just as many people, I believe the decision still belongs to the woman  (and man, if in the picture).  No one can pretend to stand in those shoes and make the decision for another.  I will never judge the person once they decide.  I guess my post is one more in the never-ending debate.   Sadly, I can see both sides of this debate, but I absolutely despise the view that some women make the choice lightly.  Stand in those shoes.

This is closer to my position than any I've read here. I'm not willing to take a stance on when "life" begins - too many variables and frankly, too many definitions. I don't think abortion is the same as murder and for the most part, I agree with nogods position of abortion on demand for all the reasons she typically provides.

I take this position only because the alternative proposed by the opposition is completely unacceptable.  Until such time as we can provide consistent comprehensive sex education to the masses, and we can also ensure easy access to birth control, along with making sweeping changes in social policies, programs and institutions, this is the only position I can take. I can not support restrictions on abortions without addressing the underlying causes FIRST.

This is also part of why I get so angry when adoption is tossed out as the "obvious" solution. It doesn't address the problem, it addresses the consequences of a lack of better solutions that address the actual problem. If it works so damn well, why haven't we seen any noticeable decrease in abortions?

birth control is easy to get and it isn't expensive. 

sex ed is taught starting at age 12 / 6th  grade and has been for decades.

adoption is a solution once you are pregnant. 

because women are encouraged to abort.  if people sayh abortion is ok why would they go adoption route.
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Offline DrTesla

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #381 on: November 05, 2013, 09:57:45 PM »
If you don't support bans on abortion then you saying you personally think it is killing a life doesn't seem credible, or you don't mind others killing a life. 

if you have conviction that is is killing fetuses then you have no problem with "telling" other women what to do with their "bodies".    Just  like you dave no problem banning rape and other immoral transgressons.
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Offline Nam

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #382 on: November 05, 2013, 10:10:53 PM »
If you don't support bans on  then you saying you personally think it is killing a life doesn't seem credible, or you don't mind others killing a life. 

if you have conviction that is is killing fetuses then you have no problem with "telling" other women what to do with their "bodies".    Just  like you dave no problem banning rape and other immoral transgressons.

Because telling a female she can have an abortion is controlling her body. That's what you said, right?

Idiotic.

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #383 on: November 05, 2013, 10:46:59 PM »
If you don't support bans on abortion then you saying you personally think it is killing a life doesn't seem credible, or you don't mind others killing a life.
Wrong.  Not that I'm surprised you'd say something like this, considering your attitudes.  With you, it's always about people agreeing with you or being part of the problem - which is fanaticism if I've ever seen it.  Real life is much messier than that.

I don't like abortions and I don't agree with doing them except under very specific circumstances.  But trying to force that attitude onto others would be worse, because I would effectively be devaluing the lives of actual, living people in favor of the potential lives of human fetuses which aren't even viable during the time period when most abortions happen.  It's one thing once a fetus has become viable (after 20-24 weeks), because a woman has had plenty of time by then to decide whether to have an abortion or not.  But before that?  Forbidding abortion and calling it murder ignores the deeper problem that you're effectively treating women as second-class humans by forbidding them the right to make decisions about whether they want to be pregnant or not.

Quote from: DrTesla
if you have conviction that is is killing fetuses then you have no problem with "telling" other women what to do with their "bodies".    Just  like you dave no problem banning rape and other immoral transgressons.
This illustrates a big problem with your beliefs about abortion.  As far as you're concerned, a woman who gets pregnant instantly loses the right to make decisions regarding her own body.  That attitude effective turns pregnancy into a kind of incarceration - no matter what the circumstances are behind a pregnancy, a pregnant woman should remain pregnant, even if it's only a few days, and other people should act to restrain her from doing anything that might harm or kill the fetus.  I know you aren't saying this, and I hope that it isn't your attitude, but that's really how it ends up coming across.

Offline Nam

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #384 on: November 05, 2013, 11:27:56 PM »
If you don't support bans on abortion then you saying you personally think it is killing a life doesn't seem credible, or you don't mind others killing a life.
Wrong.  Not that I'm surprised you'd say something like this, considering your attitudes.  With you, it's always about people agreeing with you or being part of the problem - which is fanaticism if I've ever seen it.  Real life is much messier than that.

I don't like abortions and I don't agree with doing them except under very specific circumstances.  But trying to force that attitude onto others would be worse, because I would effectively be devaluing the lives of actual, living people in favor of the potential lives of human fetuses which aren't even viable during the time period when most abortions happen.  It's one thing once a fetus has become viable (after 20-24 weeks), because a woman has had plenty of time by then to decide whether to have an abortion or not.  But before that?  Forbidding abortion and calling it murder ignores the deeper problem that you're effectively treating women as second-class humans by forbidding them the right to make decisions about whether they want to be pregnant or not.

Quote from: DrTesla
if you have conviction that is is killing fetuses then you have no problem with "telling" other women what to do with their "bodies".    Just  like you dave no problem banning rape and other immoral transgressons.
This illustrates a big problem with your beliefs about abortion.  As far as you're concerned, a woman who gets pregnant instantly loses the right to make decisions regarding her own body.  That attitude effective turns pregnancy into a kind of incarceration - no matter what the circumstances are behind a pregnancy, a pregnant woman should remain pregnant, even if it's only a few days, and other people should act to restrain her from doing anything that might harm or kill the fetus.  I know you aren't saying this, and I hope that it isn't your attitude, but that's really how it ends up coming across.

He's probably like that one politician in South or North Carolina who stated, and tried to make a law that women who have miscarriages should be investigated, and perhaps sent to jail, and/or fined.

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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #385 on: November 05, 2013, 11:41:52 PM »
Guys, I understand the view you have of the clump of cells.  But in my mind, the potential of those only human cells - not chicken, not fish, not plant, not fruit fly cells - are what sets the cells apart.

Lots of things set lots of things apart.  Set apart in what way, and whether that makes sense - that's what matters.  Defining those cells as a person greatly diminishes the value of personhood, because it has nothing to do with the things that make us who we are.

We all draw the line somewhere.  I guess under cross examination by the lawyer, my view would force me to admit to the jury that abortion at that stage is murder.  In that light I am more emotional than logical.

If you know it doesn't make logical sense, then what emotions motivate you to accuse women who have abortions of being murderers?

Your view allows you to not admit that abortion at that stage is murder.

Now you are calling everyone who disagrees with you a liar.

But all these are our own views, our own decisions, the way it should be.

Like I have said here a while ago, my wife has a pressed flower for a three week old ectopic pregnancy that was a clump of cells.  We cannot have children, we cannot afford invitro.  Ce la vie.

Is that the emotional origin of your "you're a murderer, women" accusation?
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Offline Jag

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #386 on: November 05, 2013, 11:49:07 PM »
   I have to say, I believe life begins at conception.  I believe abortion is not a good idea because of this.  Anyone coming to me for counsel would get the " you have a tiny innocent life growing inside of you, and that should be a consideration in your decision."

   However, just as many people, I believe the decision still belongs to the woman  (and man, if in the picture).  No one can pretend to stand in those shoes and make the decision for another.  I will never judge the person once they decide.  I guess my post is one more in the never-ending debate.   Sadly, I can see both sides of this debate, but I absolutely despise the view that some women make the choice lightly.  Stand in those shoes.

This is closer to my position than any I've read here. I'm not willing to take a stance on when "life" begins - too many variables and frankly, too many definitions. I don't think abortion is the same as murder and for the most part, I agree with nogods position of abortion on demand for all the reasons she typically provides.

I take this position only because the alternative proposed by the opposition is completely unacceptable.  Until such time as we can provide consistent comprehensive sex education to the masses, and we can also ensure easy access to birth control, along with making sweeping changes in social policies, programs and institutions, this is the only position I can take. I can not support restrictions on abortions without addressing the underlying causes FIRST.

This is also part of why I get so angry when adoption is tossed out as the "obvious" solution. It doesn't address the problem, it addresses the consequences of a lack of better solutions that address the actual problem. If it works so damn well, why haven't we seen any noticeable decrease in abortions?

birth control is easy to get and it isn't expensive. 

sex ed is taught starting at age 12 / 6th  grade and has been for decades.

adoption is a solution once you are pregnant. 

because women are encouraged to abort.  if people sayh abortion is ok why would they go adoption route.
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Offline Jag

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #387 on: November 05, 2013, 11:56:11 PM »
If you don't support bans on abortion then you saying you personally think it is killing a life doesn't seem credible, or you don't mind others killing a life. 

if you have conviction that is is killing fetuses then you have no problem with "telling" other women what to do with their "bodies".    Just  like you dave no problem banning rape and other immoral transgressons.


Just because.

Did you get around to reading the Facts on Abortion OP yet? Why bother discussing the crap you make up with all that factual information available?
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #388 on: November 06, 2013, 12:10:52 AM »
Remember, I am pro-choice.  Guys, I understand the view you have of the clump of cells.  But in my mind, the potential of those only human cells - not chicken, not fish, not plant, not fruit fly cells - are what sets the cells apart.  We all draw the line somewhere.  I guess under cross examination by the lawyer, my view would force me to admit to the jury that abortion at that stage is murder.  In that light I am more emotional than logical.   Your view allows you to not admit that abortion at that stage is murder.  But all these are our own views, our own decisions, the way it should be.

Like I have said here a while ago, my wife has a pressed flower for a three week old ectopic pregnancy that was a clump of cells.  We cannot have children, we cannot afford invitro.  Ce la vie.
You know, while it's true that they're human cells, that isn't enough to make them special in their own right.  A blood cell is also a human cell, as is a bone cell, a muscle cell, or whatever other cell you pick.  While it's true that fetal cells will eventually turn into another human being, assuming they don't die first (as many as half of all pregnancies end in miscarriages), that very fact makes it impossible to consider voluntary abortions - early ones, anyway - acts of murder.  Remember, abortion rights are about allowing people to make their own decisions about having an abortion or not having one.

When you call someone else's decision to have an abortion murder, you're putting a lot of emotional weight on them which is, frankly, unfair and inappropriate.  It's already a hard enough decision to make without someone coming along and calling them murderers.  Not only that, but it's not respectful of their right to make the choice.  I don't approve of abortions and if asked, I would recommend against one - but I wouldn't accuse them of murder, or say anything except "it's your life and your decision.  If you're willing to live with it, it's not my place to judge you for it."  Because, really, it isn't.  It's one thing to say give the reasons why you would recommend against an abortion, but to go any further than that is to cross the line into being judgmental.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #389 on: November 06, 2013, 04:38:47 AM »
if people sayh abortion is ok why would they go adoption route.

I'll ask it again.  DrTesla, how many children have you personally adopted?

Second question: if adoption is such a universal panacea for unwanted children, why are there any children currently in orphanages or foster care?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline Iamrational

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #390 on: November 06, 2013, 06:20:52 AM »
If you don't support bans on abortion then you saying you personally think it is killing a life doesn't seem credible, or you don't mind others killing a life. 

So it not all right for woman to do it, interesting.

However, if god was real that means your creator kills arguably 1 out of 4 babies. Yes your god kills approx. 900,000 babies every year! Nothing wrong there though?

Consider approx 26,000 stillbirths every year. That is insane to think someone is out there deliberately executing them. Many of these soon to be moms want these babies. For you though, easy cheesy. No worries. Must be a plan.

But women if you do it, ewww your a murderer.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #391 on: November 06, 2013, 08:05:44 AM »
If you don't support bans on abortion then you saying you personally think it is killing a life doesn't seem credible, or you don't mind others killing a life. 

if you have conviction that is is killing fetuses then you have no problem with "telling" other women what to do with their "bodies".    Just  like you dave no problem banning rape and other immoral transgressons.

Rather than stating the obvious or repeating your stupid, unsupported opinions, add something to the conversation. Or go play in traffic.  And if you chose the option that does not involve you being run over by a delivery van, write something coherent.  The above quote reads like it was written by someone who was sniffing ether all day.

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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #392 on: November 06, 2013, 08:26:37 AM »
Dr tesla, have you ever eaten a boiled egg and found a tiny speck in it?

You know what that is?

Its a tiny baby chicken.

Would you say eating the egg would equate to eating a live chicken?

Why not?
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #393 on: November 06, 2013, 08:31:32 AM »
I had scrambled chickens and toast this morning.
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #394 on: November 06, 2013, 08:59:05 AM »
I have to say, I believe life begins at conception. 

Why do you believe this?  I'm not going to argue back.  But for the life of me, I cannot understand why people think a single cell, or a lump of cells smaller than a fly's brain, is a person.  And absent belief in a soul, I just don't get it.

For me, it is not about "life".  The ova is, technically, alive.  Every one of the millions of sperm cells are alive.  So what?  The questions for me are, when it is a person, and why does it get more right to a uterus than the owner of the uterus?

I agree.  Consider also: a bacteria is exactly as "alive" as the embryo is in its first few weeks, often more so.  A tapeworm is certainly more alive, as are head lice.  We'll stamp those out without a moment's hesitation, so "life" clearly isn't the issue.  As you say, its being a "person".

I would consider it to be a sliding scale with the moral status and subsequent protection afforded to the embryo increasing as the potential of the "person" gets closer to being realised.


Offline Azdgari

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #395 on: November 06, 2013, 09:32:15 AM »
^^ That's how personhood works in other contexts, post-birth.  No idea why it wouldn't work that way pre-birth as well.
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Offline Wasserbuffel

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #396 on: November 06, 2013, 09:52:57 AM »
Quote
Dr tesla, have you ever eaten a boiled egg and found a tiny speck in it?

You know what that is?

Its a tiny baby chicken.

It's not.  The speck is a bit of blood that got into the egg while it was forming within the hen's body. Most people (in industrialized countries like the US and Australia) eat eggs from factory farms where the chance of an egg getting fertilized is practically zero, and the chance of it getting brooded by a hen long enough to begin to develop is even less.  Blood spots are not uncommon, but factories candle the eggs to screen them. They dispose of the ones with blood spots, because people think it's gross or unhealthy to eat them.

Even if you eat from a mixed gender flock the only way you'll have any development is if you neglect to pick up eggs for several days and have a broody hen sitting on the nest.  Even then within the first four days it doesn't really even resemble a spot. The color change is minimal, and will always be right by the yolk.

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #397 on: November 06, 2013, 06:53:04 PM »
I stand corrected.

However, the entire egg had the potential for being a live chicken, so it is still not too astray from some form of abortion.
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Offline DrTesla

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #398 on: November 06, 2013, 06:54:26 PM »
If you don't support bans on abortion then you saying you personally think it is killing a life doesn't seem credible, or you don't mind others killing a life. 

So it not all right for woman to do it, interesting.

However, if god was real that means your creator kills arguably 1 out of 4 babies. Yes your god kills approx. 900,000 babies every year! Nothing wrong there though?

Consider approx 26,000 stillbirths every year. That is insane to think someone is out there deliberately executing them. Many of these soon to be moms want these babies. For you though, easy cheesy. No worries. Must be a plan.

But women if you do it, ewww your a murderer.

Your fallacy is assuming God kills the babies.  God created life, he does not kill anything.   Sometimes the code for life goes haywire and those lifeforms die.  We all eventually die but God does not kill us.    A doctor can tell you why the baby in a miscarriage died and it is natural causes, not some kind of abortion procedure from the heavens.   lol
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"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #399 on: November 06, 2013, 06:55:35 PM »
Whose "code for life" is that, according to you?
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Offline DrTesla

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #400 on: November 06, 2013, 06:58:00 PM »
If you don't support bans on abortion then you saying you personally think it is killing a life doesn't seem credible, or you don't mind others killing a life. 

if you have conviction that is is killing fetuses then you have no problem with "telling" other women what to do with their "bodies".    Just  like you dave no problem banning rape and other immoral transgressons.

Rather than stating the obvious or repeating your stupid, unsupported opinions, add something to the conversation. Or go play in traffic.  And if you chose the option that does not involve you being run over by a delivery van, write something coherent.  The above quote reads like it was written by someone who was sniffing ether all day.

My point is, if you say you personally oppose abortion, there is only one reason to oppose it.  It is ending a life.  If it is ending a life then it seems logical that you would then support a ban on abortions by other people.      By way of analogy, this is like saying I personally oppose slavery, but who am I to tell another person he can't own slaves? 

You concede the immorality of an action but then essentially bless the immoral act if other choose to do it.   
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"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline DrTesla

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #401 on: November 06, 2013, 06:59:58 PM »
Whose "code for life" is that, according to you?

dna mutations, defects, etc.   god isn't creating each individual person.  he created the process of life.  He created the first man and woman and then they procreate.   So sometimes the design template gets messed up in the offspring and they die.    At best you can only blame him for a design that sometimes leads to error that leads to death of lifeform.    But nobody is perfect,  lol
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #402 on: November 06, 2013, 07:02:32 PM »
Quote
Dr tesla, have you ever eaten a boiled egg and found a tiny speck in it?

You know what that is?

Its a tiny baby chicken.

It's not.  The speck is a bit of blood that got into the egg while it was forming within the hen's body. Most people (in industrialized countries like the US and Australia) eat eggs from factory farms where the chance of an egg getting fertilized is practically zero, and the chance of it getting brooded by a hen long enough to begin to develop is even less.  Blood spots are not uncommon, but factories candle the eggs to screen them. They dispose of the ones with blood spots, because people think it's gross or unhealthy to eat them.

Even if you eat from a mixed gender flock the only way you'll have any development is if you neglect to pick up eggs for several days and have a broody hen sitting on the nest.  Even then within the first four days it doesn't really even resemble a spot. The color change is minimal, and will always be right by the yolk.

That whole post was very well informed. Well done.

It's also made me hungry. I think I might pop out for some bacon and chicken period.[1]
 1. I know this is biologically incorrect, strictly speaking. Just hoping to gross a few people out.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #403 on: November 06, 2013, 07:04:00 PM »
But nobody is perfect,  lol

Well there we have it.
God is not perfect.

Nothing to do here now, knowing that god is not worthy of worship.
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Offline DrTesla

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #404 on: November 06, 2013, 07:04:44 PM »
if people sayh abortion is ok why would they go adoption route.

I'll ask it again.  DrTesla, how many children have you personally adopted?

Second question: if adoption is such a universal panacea for unwanted children, why are there any children currently in orphanages or foster care?

How many of the former slaves did your great grandparents  give shelter and food to when they were freed back in the 1860's?    If none, does that mean we shouldn't have banned slavery?

How many Germans/Jews who were liberated in WW2 from Hitler's regime  were taken care of by people who supported the war to liberate Europe?  many of those peeopl lived in poverty in war stricken Germany.     if none,  does that mean it was wrong to liberate Hitler? 
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline DrTesla

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #405 on: November 06, 2013, 07:07:27 PM »
But nobody is perfect,  lol

Well there we have it.
God is not perfect.

Nothing to do here now, knowing that god is not worthy of worship.

you are conflating the concept of biblical god with any possibility of god.

I never said it is a god that must worshiped or wants us to worhip it.   All I said is he is an intelligent designer, the design of life is intelligent meaning it was the result of planning by a 3rd party, aka God.      He's the Big Engineer in the Sky.      the original design of lifeforms is awesome and amazingly complex but errors can get made in the reproduction of offspring.   Even so, consider how few humans have serious errors especially early in life. 

And so it goes. 
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla