Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?

[nogodsforme]

Dr Tesla, are you 13 years old? You sound like a sniggering adolescent who just figured out how babies are made.

I was a social worker in a housing project for many years and then did overseas development work. I have sat and held 17 year old girls as they gave birth, and sat and held 35 year old moms as their much-loved babies died in front of them. Have you?

Do you have any idea of how much time, work and money it takes to raise a child for 18 years? Pregnant women can't rely on temporary church donations-- what about health insurance, what about a place to live, what about support for the other kids, what about protection from the angry ex-boyfriend?

What if the pregnancy becomes high-risk (as many do when the woman is, as women seeking abortions often are-- very young or older than average)? What about the $10,000 unpaid bill for the birth that the hospital turns over to collections? What if the woman is illegal-- does the church hide her in the basement until the baby is born and then turn her in to the authorities? If she is an addict does the church also pay for her drug treatment?

Did you even read my earlier post? Probably not. Too many words. Maybe I should make them shorter for your attention span....

[DrTesla]

what about adoption.  what about relatives taking care of it on temporary basis. 

i don't think abortion is supposed to be a solution to poverty.  Given a large percentage of women who want abortions are not poor,  it ends being an excuse for all of them.

given our country doesn't do anything about illegals, that is a silly talking point.  many states give them drivers licenses.   lol

those are some interesting anecdotes but given I care more about babies than you do, as demonstrated by our disagreement on abortion,  I'm not sure it matters if you held the hand of a woman giving birth or one dying.  etc

[Azdgari]

u don't think there is any chance it is just people think the fetus is alive?

Why would anyone think that's their motivation?

[nogodsforme]

what about adoption.  what about relatives taking care of it on temporary basis. 

i don't think abortion is supposed to be a solution to poverty.  Given a large percentage of women who want abortions are not poor,  it ends being an excuse for all of them.

given our country doesn't do anything about illegals, that is a silly talking point.  many states give them drivers licenses.   lol

those are some interesting anecdotes but given I care more about babies than you do, as demonstrated by our disagreement on abortion,  I'm not sure it matters if you held the hand of a woman giving birth or one dying.  etc

I want abortion to be legal. Because when abortion is illegal, more women and girls die, along with the fetus. Kids are left without their mom, husbands without their wife, families without their daughter.

I have lived in places where abortion was illegal. Hospital wards have to treat women maimed and dying from desperate attempts to self-abort, or from badly done illegal abortions. I worked in one of those hospitals. I could link you to some photos, but you won't look at them. You want to think that banning abortion would make the world a better place. You want to live in a fantasy land where women enduring 10 or 12 pregnancies in their lives and having to raise 8 surviving children is just fine.

Other than that I don't think we are in disagreement on abortion.

Since you think states should not even let illegal immigrants have driver's licenses, I doubt you care about how many are pregnant or already have children when they get deported.

http://www.statisticbrain.com/number-of-u-s-deportations/

Statistics, not anecdotes. Not that you will pay any attention, but hundreds of thousands of undocumented people do get deported every year. Some of them are women with children. And some of them are pregnant women who have to decide whether to keep their families together or not.

Most women who get pregnant have the baby. The women who do not want to have a baby are the minority. So, yes, the vast majority of pregnant women are already relying on adoption or help from family and church and government welfare programs.

Most women having abortions are not rock-bottom poor, just as you say. But they are not rich, either. Rich women do not have to go to family planning clinics, let alone back alley providers. They have more stable incomes, better health insurance, have access to more reliable birth control and go to private doctors instead of clinic for their "female problems".

Women who go to places like Planned Parenthood for health care, including abortion, are working poor and middle class; many are without health insurance. Some are having the abortion so they will not become poor. Having a baby might mean having to quit a job or go to part-time work, or spend most of one of your part time job wages on child care. So, you are right --abortion is not a solution to poverty. Neither is having children when you can barely afford to support yourself on a minimum wage job.

Since you care so much more about babies than I do, I assume you are doing more then just talk about how much you hate abortion on the internet. You are willing to change your life around completely to help babies. Just as you expect a woman to do if she gets pregnant and does not want the child.

Amirite?

1)I assume you are currently financially supporting as many children as you can afford.
2)I assume you have already adopted several unwanted children, and are fighting hard for gay people to be able to adopt in your state.
3)I assume you have never had unprotected sex and fight to get good sex education into your community's schools.
4)I assume you are helping the women in your community with child care and helping them to pay for their health expenses. How many kids are you babysitting so their moms can work or go to school?
5)I assume you have helped immigrant women without papers find jobs and decent places to live so they can keep their families together.
6)I assume you have lobbied your state to raise the minimum wage and give everyone decent health care.
7)And of course you are in favor of expanding welfare benefits for any women who have babies.

If you have not done any of these things, you are just another internet poseur, talking a big line of bullsh!t and never doing anything about anything. And you have made an a$$ out of you and me.

Amirite?

[Azdgari]

I don't think most people care who other people are having sex with.  Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something.  lol  i'd like to punish her with  my baby.  lol

New sig quote.  It scores higher on the creep-O-meter than the previous one.

[DrTesla]

I don't think most people care who other people are having sex with.  Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something.  lol  i'd like to punish her with  my baby.  lol

New sig quote.  It scores higher on the creep-O-meter than the previous one.

yeah that wasn't phrased very well.  i meant, if she was cool with it.   you knew what i meant.   i don't think somebody pro-life is going to be what you are implying.

i might make one of your quotes about how God loves abortion my sig.   That was creeptastic and you probably meant it. 

[Azdgari]

One of whose quotes?

[DrTesla]

One of whose quotes?

I might have confused you with one of the other women on this thread.  I actually thought I was talking to the same person all this time.  lol

Here is one of your statements.  It is hilarious if you actually believe this:

"Sure they would.  The important thing is to make sure that the woman is punished for having non-procreative sex.  It's a religious thing.  Unwanted child-birth is a convenient, "natural" punishment.  This is why anti-abortion folks so often talk about how the woman needs to be held accountable for her actions (ie. having sex) and should have to face the consequences.  It's about retribution against her.  The pregnancy is merely an effective tool for achieving this."

To me, it seems like it about they think the fetus is alive.  Look for simple explanations (Occam's Razor), as it isn't  likely religious people plotting against women who have sex.  If we lived in Afghanistan you might have a point.

[Azdgari]

I might have confused you with one of the other women on this thread.  I actually thought I was talking to the same person all this time.  lol

That you don't pay attention to what people say is old news; that you don't pay attention to who says it is definitely unsurprising.

Here is one of your statements.  It is hilarious if you actually believe this:

"Sure they would.  The important thing is to make sure that the woman is punished for having non-procreative sex.  It's a religious thing.  Unwanted child-birth is a convenient, "natural" punishment.  This is why anti-abortion folks so often talk about how the woman needs to be held accountable for her actions (ie. having sex) and should have to face the consequences.  It's about retribution against her.  The pregnancy is merely an effective tool for achieving this."

I believe the term that the pro-lifer who cued me onto this truth used was "boozy sluts".  The "pro-life" position, along with the other positions that often accompany it - such as objection to contraception and sexual education, and objection to "socialist" child-care policies - makes much more sense if what I said is true, than it does if they actually cared about the lives of children.

To me, it seems like it about they think the fetus is alive.  Look for simple explanations (Occam's Razor), as it isn't  likely religious people plotting against women who have sex.  If we lived in Afghanistan you might have a point.

Islam and Christianity share their misogyny; we just happen to have had a secular enlightenment period to soften it, and they havn't.

As for Occam's Razor, the one that makes the fewest assumptions and requires the fewest ad-hoc explanations is preferred.  That isn't always simpler.  For example, it is simpler to believe that my car's engine troubles are the result of a mischievous spirit than the complex sh!t that's actually transpired in there.  The complex sh!t isn't simpler, but it does make fewer assumptions and ad-hoc explanations.  As in, none.  Whereas the mischievous spirit is an unevidenced, ad-hoc explanation that is unwarranted.

Given that I've actually talked to "pro-lifers" who did indeed see childbirth as an appropriate punishment for the woman's sexual misdeeds, it's not all that far fetched.  I'm sure some are suckered in by the baby pictures too, though, and just havn't thoguht the position through.

[DrTesla]

Well you need to go live in Muslim countries like Iran to get some perspective on how different Christian and Islam cultures are.   Islam is part of the governmnet over there, too.  Women get stoned over there for adultery and other things.  So I'd rather take my chances with Christians who want to teach "creationism" in classrooms and are pro-life, myself.  lol

I don't see Christian women walking around covering their bodies and whatnot.   What is your proof that Christians are anti-woman because being against teaching kids about birth control when they are 9 doesn't mean you are anti-woman.  It is about what kids should hear at a certain age.  Also, liberals tend to oppose teaching abstinence to high schoolers  even though abstinence works every time it is tried. I'm not sure how that is anti-woman

Your fallacy is to argue abortion is a women's rights issue but actually it isn't ggiven all the women who oppose abortion including most mothers.  I don't think women opposed right to vote, etc.

There might be some Christians who want to "punish" women as you say but I don't think they see having a kid as a punishment.   But still this is kind of an argument that the exception to the rule is the rule because let's face it, most people oppose abortion because they think it is a baby.  That is why it is a controversial issue.  Obviously most people don't want to tell women what to do, on the other hand, we think there is a life inside the woman.  So people have conflict no matter what side they eventually come down on.

[Azdgari]

Well you need to go live in Muslim countries like Iran to get some perspective on how different Christian and Islam cultures are.

You mean like you've done?  Anyway, I've already addressed this.

Islam is part of the governmnet over there, too.  Women get stoned over there for adultery and other things.  So I'd rather take my chances with Christians who want to teach "creationism" in classrooms and are pro-life, myself.  lol

Fortunately, you and your ilk are prevented from instituting the same kind of theocracy here by law.

I don't see Christian women walking around covering their bodies and whatnot.

Yes you do.  And when a woman is raped, the Christian Conservative media lambast her for having "asked for it" by dreassing slutty.  It's not as extreme over there, as she isn't killed, but the same sorts of values exist throughout the Abrahamic faiths.

What is your proof that Christians are anti-woman because being against teaching kids about birth control when they are 9 doesn't mean you are anti-woman.

Being against teaching them about it when they're 14 is, though.  Anyway, I never said they were anti-woman.  Just anti-perceived-as-promiscuous-woman.  It's not about punishing women across the board, just about punishing the "immoral" ones.

It is about what kids should hear at a certain age.  Also, liberals tend to oppose teaching abstinence to high schoolers  even though abstinence works every time it is tried. I'm not sure how that is anti-woman

Abstinence works.  Abstinence lessons do not.  Only one of these is decided by the school.  But you knew that and were just being dishonest again.  And again.

Your fallacy is to argue abortion is a women's rights issue but actually it isn't ggiven all the women who oppose abortion including most mothers.  I don't think women opposed right to vote, etc.

I never said anything to which this could be a coherent response.

There might be some Christians who want to "punish" women as you say but I don't think they see having a kid as a punishment.

Just going by their own words, DrTroll.

But still this is kind of an argument that the exception to the rule is the rule because let's face it, most people oppose abortion because they think it is a baby.  That is why it is a controversial issue.

Says you.  I hope not, though, because that would make most of them fvcking stupid, for other reasons I've brought up earlier in this thread.

Obviously most people don't want to tell women what to do,

That is not at all obvious.  Indeed, your original comments about Islam argue against this claim of yours.  Not that you'd care about consistency.

on the other hand, we think there is a life inside the woman.  So people have conflict no matter what side they eventually come down on.

They do tend to rationalize it that way to justify punishing her for her sexual immorality, that's true.

[DrTesla]

Like I said, I think you watch too many movies like A Scarlet Letter or Footloose.   You make people who disagree with you on abortion into these evil monsters.   I think you do that because you know the moral side of the debate lies with the pro life people so you are trying to shift the subject some and show how they are immoral so somehow abortion is ok.   Discredit people who disagree with you rrather than the argument on is abortion aborting life or not.  That is the only thing that is relevant on this issue.   I'll concede some pro lifers might be jerks but that doesn't mean abortion is ok.  That seems to be your argument in an indirect way.

I enjoyed the debate.  I need to get my beauty sleep.  take care.

[Azdgari]

Like I said, I think you watch too many movies like A Scarlet Letter or Footloose.   You make people who disagree with you on abortion into these evil monsters.

Maybe they're merely mistaken.  There's something very sick about a set of positions when the motivations I've described paint a more coherent picture than the ones you have.

I think you do that because you know the moral side of the debate lies with the pro life people so you are trying to shift the subject some and show how they are immoral so somehow abortion is ok.   Discredit people who disagree with you rrather than the argument on is abortion aborting life or not.

Of course it's aborting life; everyone does that all the time, it's not inherently wrong to excise life.  Just not life that has any of the qualities associated with personhood.  Which neonates do not.

That is the only thing that is relevant on this issue.   I'll concede some pro lifers might be jerks but that doesn't mean abortion is ok.  That seems to be your argument in an indirect way.

Not really.  There's no rational justification for broadly classifying neonates as people, except as a tool to oppress women.  Or, I suppose, if we were experiencing a species-threatening low-population crisis, as in the recent remake of Battlestar Galactica.  It's a conscious decision to classify them that way, and all sorts of rationalizations come out to justify that action:  The soul argument, the potential argument, etc...none of these hold up under scrutiny, so either there are a diverse set of faulty justifications that individually and separately convince people to oppose abortion, or these faulty justifications are covers for something else that few would have the gall to state openly.

A Biblical attiiude toward women having sex[1] is a single postulate that explains the full range of right-wing positions on abortion, contraception, sexual education, health care, and child care.  It simply and elegantly explains all of that.

1.	Stone the adulterers!  Punish the fornicators!  Well...just the ones that are women, they're morally inferior after all...

[Anfauglir]

Yup.  But THIS thread was about how - for someone who truly believes in a good afterlife - abortion would indeed be the kindest thing,    as it would guarantee that "soul" immediate and eternal happiness in the afterlife.  It would eliminate all the troubles of this world, and remove the danger that soul would be led astray and end up in eternal torment.  Hence the question "Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?"

Seems like a weird and creepy thing to say,  especially since you don't believe in the afterlife.  It does seem like religious people live in your brain, rent free.  Or maybe you are looking for ways to assuage your guilt.    I always thought the line was "I personally think abortion is wrong, but......"    This seems to be "I think abortion is pretty awesome because......."

Everyone else has quite adequately dealt with the other half of your post.  So I'll deal with this half.

Yes.  It IS a weird and creepy statement, deliberately so.  It is made to expose the hypocrisy of those who hold the sumultaneous positions that "abortion is bad" and "aborted foetuses go direct to heaven".

I note that you decided not to actually address the question, though, but instead to suggest I was assuaging my guilt - though I'm not sure of what guilt you feel I have a problem with.  I wonder why you decided that the best way to respond to the original point of this thread was to attack me, rather than to offer a legitimate answer to the question?  Perhaps those religious people are living in your head (whatever that means), propting you to go on the defensive rather than be able to give a considered response?

I don't know.  All I know is, you decided to go with a personal slur - actually, a series of them - rather than consider the question that was actually posed.  I find that quite revealing.

[screwtape]

i meant, if she was cool with it.   you knew what i meant. 

yeah, we knew what you meant when you referred to sex as "punishing her".  Since even talking to you is torture, it was either you are the worst lay on the continent or something rapey.  Possibly both. 

[DrTesla]

i meant, if she was cool with it.   you knew what i meant. 

yeah, we knew what you meant when you referred to sex as "punishing her".  Since even talking to you is torture, it was either you are the worst lay on the continent or something rapey.  Possibly both.

nah, she said that having a baby was a punishment,  then she said people care about who she has sex with,  so I was just trying to do satire featuring both those elements.   i've already said i didn't phrase it right so i am now prepared to accept your apology for calling me a rapist.    I'm sure Scarlettt can do better than me.   lol   a man can dream can't he.   

[DrTesla]

Yes.  It IS a weird and creepy statement, deliberately so.  It is made to expose the hypocrisy of those who hold the sumultaneous positions that "abortion is bad" and "aborted foetuses go direct to heaven".

I don't see how it is hypocritical for Christians to say abortion is bad and that babies go to heaven when they are aborted.   Hypocritical would be them having abortions.    Saying that the babies go to heaven when they are aborted  is similar to what people say to other people who had a death in their family....they say your relative is in a better place now.   It is just about fiindiing a silver lining on something that horrible but you have no power to stop.

My point is it seems like you always have Christians on your mind and you also act like the argument against abortion is religious but it is about the fetus being life or not.  It is a question of ethics..     Obviosly many Christians oppose abortion but that does not mean the issue itself is religious. 

[Azdgari]

I don't see how it is hypocritical for Christians to say abortion is bad and that babies go to heaven when they are aborted.   Hypocritical would be them having abortions.    Saying that the babies go to heaven when they are aborted  is similar to what people say to other people who had a death in their family....they say your relative is in a better place now.   It is just about fiindiing a silver lining on something that horrible but you have no power to stop.

The problem is that the belief is not just in a silver lining, but in a preferable state.  Look at your own wording:  They're in a better place now.  Better is preferable.  If one truly believes death to lead to a better place than life, then it makes logical sense to seek death.

Fortunately, few Christians seem to genuinely believe in heaven.

[DrTesla]

I don't see how it is hypocritical for Christians to say abortion is bad and that babies go to heaven when they are aborted.   Hypocritical would be them having abortions.    Saying that the babies go to heaven when they are aborted  is similar to what people say to other people who had a death in their family....they say your relative is in a better place now.   It is just about fiindiing a silver lining on something that horrible but you have no power to stop.

The problem is that the belief is not just in a silver lining, but in a preferable state.  Look at your own wording:  They're in a better place now.  Better is preferable.  If one truly believes death to lead to a better place than life, then it makes logical sense to seek death.

Fortunately, few Christians seem to genuinely believe in heaven.

They oppose the killing of babies.  You are the one arguing they should want to kill babies so they go to heaven.   You are getting the order mixed up.  They say babies go to heaven after somebody else has aborted  them.    I don't believe in the afterlife so I never said they are in a better place now, that is what some people think. 

You talk about God and heaven a lot for an atheist.    Why are they on your mind.   You really are a slave to thinking about Christians.  Free your mind, the rest will follow.

[screwtape]

i've already said i didn't phrase it right so i am now prepared to accept your apology for calling me a rapist.   

I didn't call you a rapist.  I said you may have meant "something kind of rapey".  The alternative is you meant sex with you is the opposite of a treat - punishment. 

Your reading skills need some brushing up.

[Wasserbuffel]

lol, yeah it is punishment to force you to have a precious baby.

With over 7 billion humans on our planet, there is nothing inherently precious about a baby.

If we were to force prisoners to take part in an activity that had the equivalent effect of a pregnancy it would be considered cruel and inhumane.

Do you want to do something that saps your energy, makes permanent changes to your body, causes you to vomit frequently, and pee even more frequently for months, that ends in hours of abdominal cramping, and skin tearing if it doesn't kill you?


I doubt you put much thought into squashing a spider and ending its life, or eating the meat of other sentient animals. Why is that OK, but aborting a developing clump of cells in a human womb isn't?

I fully support abortion rights, and I don't care what reason a woman gives for wanting one.  I'm lucky enough to be on very effective BC, but I wouldn't hesitate for even a second to have an abortion if it failed. I'm emotionally stable, in a very healthy and supportive marriage, gainfully employed, financially stable, and I even have spare rooms in my house.  In ever aspect I'm in the ideal situation to have a baby, which isn't the case for many desperate women in this world.  But you know what?  I don't want a baby.

End of story.

[DrTesla]

Some people didn't want to give up slavery.  Some people didn't want segregated schools.

It isn't about what you want.  It is about what is right.  You are just saying you are selfish and don't consider the ethics of it.    Babies are not cockroaches. 

[Nam]

Some people didn't want to give up slavery.  Some people didn't want segregated schools.

It isn't about what you want.  It is about what is right.  You are just saying you are selfish and don't consider the ethics of it.    Babies are not cockroaches. 

Then when they are born, why do you treat them like cockroaches?

-Nam

[DrTesla]

I didn't realize I was resonsible for everybody else's baby.  That seems to be the liberal mindset out there, everybody else is supposed to take care of me.   lol

Why do we pay all these taxes to ostensibly help the poor if all these women can't have their baby because of poverty. 

Clearly pro-abortion people don't care if it is life or if it isn't, they will support abortion even if we prove to them it is viable life to include feeling pain.   Politically, you hvae to pretend you care about that question and say it isn't life or viable life and doesn't feel pain. 

[Azdgari]

They oppose the killing of babies.

So do I.  The difference is, my beliefs give me no reason to want them killed.

You are the one arguing they should want to kill babies so they go to heaven.

I'm quite glad they don't.  I'm not arguing that they should kill babies, I'm arguing that they don't really believe in heaven.

You are getting the order mixed up.  They say babies go to heaven after somebody else has aborted  them.    I don't believe in the afterlife so I never said they are in a better place now, that is what some people think.

Believe it or not, this thread was not personally directed to you.  It was started before you even started posting here.

Also, "baby" refers to a human that has been born.

You talk about Allah and paradise a lot for an atheist.    Why are they on your mind.   You really are a slave to thinking about Muslims.  Free your mind, the rest will follow.

Imagine you were saying the above ^^ to an atheist in Iran.

[Wasserbuffel]

ou are just saying you are selfish and don't consider the ethics of it.

I very much consider the ethics of it. It's just that my ethics and yours are not the same. I believe in the value of life, but don't assign intrinsic value to the non-sentient embryo, just because it's human. 

A human embryo in the womb of a woman who desperately wants a child is extremely valuable to her. I attended a funeral for my sister-in-law's miscarriage, because it was a real loss.  If the same occurred to woman who was ambivalent about the pregnancy, and so relieved about the miscarriage that she wanted to celebrate, I would celebrate with her.

What answers do you have to Nogodsforme's questions regarding what you are doing to promote child welfare in the world?  Do you adopt children, do you help poor mothers?  Do you do anything but judge and condemn?

If you can't answer that you, in fact, do anything to help these babies you so desperately want born after their birth, then you do treat them as cockroaches.

Never minding babies and children, what do you do to help adults whose lives are miserable? Do you volunteer to help the homeless, do you donate blood, give money to battered women's shelters, join a task force to end gang violence? 

Do you do anything to promote the welfare of any human after birth, do you even pretend to care about them?  Fully formed, living, breathing people suffer every day, but so much time and energy is spent on non-sentient clumps of dividing cells that have the potential to become more of the same forgotten folks.

In many cases, not even considering any potential theological aspect, abortion is kinder than birth. 

[Wasserbuffel]

I didn't realize I was resonsible for everybody else's baby.

You seem to think it's your responsibility to tell women they should give birth instead of abort, why shouldn't you then have some responsibility toward the results of your actions?

[DrTesla]

I didn't realize I was resonsible for everybody else's baby.

You seem to think it's your responsibility to tell women they should give birth instead of abort, why shouldn't you then have some responsibility toward the results of your actions?

I pay taxes that go to the welfare state.  What else can I do?  They can give the baby up for adoptiion or get their parents to help out. 

This is irrevalant to the question of is it terminating life or not.  I think most fetuses are aborted with the have a beating a heart, a functioning brain with brain waves, a neverous system, well deveoped limbs.  etc.   

Let's apply your logic to torturing dogs like Michael Vick.  If I think it is my responisibliy to tell people like Vick not to torture dogs,  how many dogs am I supporting. 

[Jag]

^^^On what were you gazing to so completely miss the point?