Author Topic: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?  (Read 9137 times)

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Offline One Above All

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #29 on: July 20, 2013, 01:21:10 PM »
Jag didn't address a single word of my post.

You posted statistics, Jag posted statistics. You didn't post sources. Works for me.[1]
Smite me if'n you dare.[2]
 1. In other words, unless you post actual sources, I can and will disregard your post as nothing more than baseless claims. Jag posted her source, albeit without an actual link.
 2. Quoting Scruffy from Futurama; not an actual dare.
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Offline Mooby

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #30 on: July 20, 2013, 01:41:57 PM »
You posted statistics, Jag posted statistics. You didn't post sources. Works for me.[1]
Smite me if'n you dare.[2]
 1. In other words, unless you post actual sources, I can and will disregard your post as nothing more than baseless claims. Jag posted her source, albeit without an actual link.
 2. Quoting Scruffy from Futurama; not an actual dare.
You posted two claims:
  • Abortions are rare
  • Abortions are used for mainly risky pregnancies

You did not post sources for either of your claims.

I replied with some unsourced (but factual) statistics to indicate to you (and others) that your claims are wrong.  I do not intend to make any further claims with those statistics, so I see little need to go hunt down the sites again.

If you would like to ignore my unsourced statistics, feel free.  However, the fact remains that you still have made two bare assertions, and at least one person in this thread (me) has expressed high skepticism towards their validity.  The burden of proof is yours if you want those assertions to overcome the skepticism and become established as valid.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #31 on: July 20, 2013, 02:26:31 PM »
You posted two claims:
  • Abortions are rare
  • Abortions are used for mainly risky pregnancies

You did not post sources for either of your claims.
<snip>

Quite true. I do not expect you to believe me without my sources. However, I honestly don't care either way.
If I happen to come across some reliable sources that contradict my views, I will become skeptical of my own view; perhaps even reject it entirely.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

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Online nogodsforme

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #32 on: July 20, 2013, 03:03:52 PM »
While you make a good point, note that abortions are rare.
>20% of pregnancies is not "rare."

Abortions are mainly used for risky pregnancies; not as a substitute for contraception.
<8% for fetal health, maternal health, rape, and incest combined is not "mainly."

I suppose elective abortions are "rare" compared to pregnancies that survive miscarriage and make it to term. Most women who get pregnant and don't have a miscarriage do have the baby. Very few women worldwide have more abortions, on average, than they have children, and that in rare cases like in the Soviet Union when contraception was not available.

And most abortions worldwide (legal and illegal) are because women do not want to be pregnant and have a baby. If they do not want a baby at that point in their lives for whatever reason, they should not have to have one.  A woman who wants to have an abortion does not want to be a mother. A woman who does not want to be a mother should not be one. This seems so obvious to me, but a lot of people clearly do not agree.  :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #33 on: July 20, 2013, 08:36:33 PM »
...
You posted two claims:
  • Abortions are rare
  • Abortions are used for mainly risky pregnancies
...

Late term abortions are extremely rare and are mostly used to save the life of the woman, or to prevent the birth of a severely damaged fetus.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Online nogodsforme

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #34 on: July 21, 2013, 12:22:06 PM »
...
You posted two claims:
  • Abortions are rare
  • Abortions are used for mainly risky pregnancies
...

Late term abortions are extremely rare and are mostly used to save the life of the woman, or to prevent the birth of a severely damaged fetus.

Yep. Most women, by 6 months in, have come to terms (so to speak) with the fact of being pregnant and have made whatever adjustments they need to make.[1] The idea that visibly pregnant women are staggering into clinics in droves for elective abortions at 24+ weeks is absurd. That happens sometimes in China, but it is not usually voluntary at that point. Like I said, do we want the government determining who has a baby and who doesn't?
 1. I still think that women should be able to decide that they don't want a baby even at 6 months. Who else, if not her, should make that decision? The government?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline epidemic

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #35 on: August 29, 2013, 03:12:05 PM »
And most abortions worldwide (legal and illegal) are because women do not want to be pregnant and have a baby. If they do not want a baby at that point in their lives for whatever reason, they should not have to have one.  A woman who wants to have an abortion does not want to be a mother. A woman who does not want to be a mother should not be one. This seems so obvious to me, but a lot of people clearly do not agree.  :?

I for one agree with this.:)

Offline epidemic

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #36 on: August 29, 2013, 03:43:05 PM »
hey natlegend,

just noticed you did not respond to my post 13#  I answered your complaint that I was an uncaring person.   Do you care to respond:)

Online nogodsforme

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #37 on: August 29, 2013, 08:43:58 PM »
I just came back from a visit to a Catholic Latin American country where abortion is illegal. Women and girls there have died from childbirth complications where an abortion would have saved at least one of the lives involved.

I know older women there who have had 12-14 pregnancies, with 8-10 living children. Some of these women have been pregnant nearly every year of their fertile lives-- they describe that as having "all their children", meaning they had all the children god saw fit to send them. Clearly, those women had no possibilities of education past 6th or 8th grade, or jobs outside the home that paid decent money.

Nowadays hardly any woman there wants to have "all their children". They don't want more than 2-3 children, because they want to have better lives than their mothers and grandmothers. They are trying to earn enough money to send their kids to college. They use birth control. And, of course there are abortions, but women have to take their chances with doctors willing to break the law. And not all of these are back alley operations-- they are legit doctors who do abortions secretly after hours in their offices. They are not getting rich from this work, because most of their patients are poor women. Rich women can get around the law easier.

I admire many of these medical people, because they are going against cultural rules to help women and are taking their chances with the law. And jail in that country is no picnic--prisons are packed, your relatives have to bring you food and the smell of urine everywhere is so strong it makes your eyes burn. (Don't ask me how I know this!)

I asked one doctor about the religious ramifications of doing illegal abortions. He said he did what he thought was best for his patients and would have to face god's judgment when he died. That's a brave man.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #38 on: August 29, 2013, 09:32:05 PM »
nogodsforme,

Too bad those against abortions here don't care about your story. They just see it as left-wing propaganda, whether it's true or not.

They also don't care if they survive after they born: just that they are born. If they die after being born then it's a part of "god's plan", abortion isn't.

They do not care. At first I thought it was that they had to bring all people to Biblegod  but, these days, I don't think that any longer, I think they just adamantly believe that if they don't save these unborn babies THEY will pay the price.

But then again: their religion probably just makes them blind to the reality of the world, which is not the reality.

-Nam

Offline epidemic

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #39 on: August 30, 2013, 01:29:00 PM »
my friend says that each baby is a fully vested human from conception all the way to death.  I contend that he and virtually all other christians obviously don't feel this way.  If they saw a woman on the street pointing a gun at her baby they would risk life and limb to save that child. Even though they know that babies are being killed in abortion clinics around the country they do not take such drastic action.

Online nogodsforme

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #40 on: August 30, 2013, 03:39:45 PM »
^^^Does your friend think that every human should have food, shelter, and health care from conception until death? The right to vote? To be counted in the census? Or just the right to exist?

And what kind of world does you friend really want to live in? A world where every female over 12 has to report to a government agency every month for a pregnancy test? Where miscarriages are treated as murder until there is proof that it was unintentional? Where female mortality is higher than it is now? &) :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #41 on: August 30, 2013, 04:30:03 PM »
my friend says that each baby is a fully vested human from conception all the way to death.  I contend that he and virtually all other christians obviously don't feel this way.  If they saw a woman on the street pointing a gun at her baby they would risk life and limb to save that child. Even though they know that babies are being killed in abortion clinics around the country they do not take such drastic action.

Why start at conception. We should start at "potential". Each female child born has the capacity to have X number of kids. Starting at about age 12. Some even sooner. If it is only the baby that is important, shouldn't we require that every woman of birthing age start whipping out the kids ASAP, and for as long as possible. If it is only babies that count, our whole society should be built around there constantly pregnant baby-makers and everyones effort, in every way, should be going towards generating more children, as fast as possible and as often as possible. If every pregnancy can be shortened a couple of months by premature cesarean birth, it should be, so that the woman can get pregnant again sooner.

In other words, every woman should be required by law to have absolutely as many children as her body can manage. She should have no choice in the matter. She should be tied to a bed for life if she disagrees, and forced to have kids, no matter how much she doesn't want to do it. And if it kills her, tough.

And every man, woman and child should be involved in being sure that every woman of child bearing age is in some stage or reproduction, and we should feed, clothe and otherwise tend to these baby-factories 24/7 for our entire lives. Because if each child is that important, nothing else should matter.

If you disagree with that, then you have the equivalent of a pro-abortion stance. Because you are against forced pregnancies.

So your differences with pro-abortion advocates are smaller than you thought.
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Offline Rare96ws6

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2013, 12:27:07 AM »
God has aborted more babies than all the women ever to have done so put together;(
Extrordinary claims require extrordinay evidence - Carl Sagan.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #43 on: September 02, 2013, 03:48:17 PM »
Assuming god is going to burn you in hell for performing abortion or getting an abortion.  If done for the right reason isn't abortion about the highest selfless act a human can be involved in
I think the question is basically flawed. God approves of abortions. I have never understood why so-called "fundies"[1] never bother to read what their religion is based upon.

Abortion is not murder. A fetus is not considered a human life. http://skepticsannotatedbible.com/says_about/abortion.html

    If men strive, and hurt a woman with child, so that her fruit depart from her, and yet no mischief follow: he shall be surely punished, according as the woman's husband will lay upon him; and he shall pay as the judges determine. And if any mischief follow, then thou shalt give life for life. -- Exodus 21:22-23

The Bible places no value on fetuses or infants less than one month old.

    And if it be from a month old even unto five years old, then thy estimation shall be of the male five shekels of silver, and for the female thy estimation shall be three shekels of silver. -- Leviticus 27:6

Fetuses and infants less than one month old are not considered persons.

    Number the children of Levi after the house of their fathers, by their families: every male from a month old and upward shalt thou number them. And Moses numbered them according to the word of the LORD. -- Numbers 3:15-16

God sometimes approves of killing fetuses.

    And Moses said unto them, Have ye saved all the women alive? ... Now therefore kill every male among the little ones, and kill every woman that hath known man by lying with him. -- Numbers 31:15-17
    (Some of the non-virgin women must have been pregnant. They would have been killed along with their unborn fetuses.)

The article goes on with  more examples. But omits the part where, if you want your wife to have an abortion because she has been unfaithful, you should take her to a priest and he will do the job (for a fee.) (Numbers 5:12-28).

As usual, pro-lifers are hypocritical and have no idea what God wants.
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Offline BillyM67

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #44 on: September 04, 2013, 01:02:47 PM »
It is a personal choice...bottom line.

Couldn't agree more.

Offline epidemic

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #45 on: September 05, 2013, 07:12:39 AM »
my friend says that each baby is a fully vested human from conception all the way to death.  I contend that he and virtually all other christians obviously don't feel this way.  If they saw a woman on the street pointing a gun at her baby they would risk life and limb to save that child. Even though they know that babies are being killed in abortion clinics around the country they do not take such drastic action.

Why start at conception. We should start at "potential". Each female child born has the capacity to have X number of kids. Starting at about age 12. Some even sooner. If it is only the baby that is important, shouldn't we require that every woman of birthing age start whipping out the kids ASAP, and for as long as possible. If it is only babies that count, our whole society should be built around there constantly pregnant baby-makers and everyones effort, in every way, should be going towards generating more children, as fast as possible and as often as possible. If every pregnancy can be shortened a couple of months by premature cesarean birth, it should be, so that the woman can get pregnant again sooner.

In other words, every woman should be required by law to have absolutely as many children as her body can manage. She should have no choice in the matter. She should be tied to a bed for life if she disagrees, and forced to have kids, no matter how much she doesn't want to do it. And if it kills her, tough.

And every man, woman and child should be involved in being sure that every woman of child bearing age is in some stage or reproduction, and we should feed, clothe and otherwise tend to these baby-factories 24/7 for our entire lives. Because if each child is that important, nothing else should matter.

If you disagree with that, then you have the equivalent of a pro-abortion stance. Because you are against forced pregnancies.

So your differences with pro-abortion advocates are smaller than you thought.

I have tried the potential human argument with my friend.  He beat around the bush and never really answered that.  He does however kinda believe that as long as it is natural a woman can shed her eggs with no harm or foul (as long as no one enjoys themselves natural egg sheding is just fine).  A man can not waste his seed unless it is by nocturnal emissions (again no enjoyment is supposed to be had unless there is risk)

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #46 on: September 05, 2013, 08:52:27 AM »
I have tried the potential human argument with my friend.  He beat around the bush and never really answered that.  He does however kinda believe that as long as it is natural a woman can shed her eggs with no harm or foul (as long as no one enjoys themselves natural egg sheding is just fine).  A man can not waste his seed unless it is by nocturnal emissions (again no enjoyment is supposed to be had unless there is risk)

I have a very christian friend who is very much anti-abortion.. Yet when we go to the big city together (big as in Montana. Missoula has under 70,000 people) he spend most of his time driving around and complaining about all the people. There are too many of them! They are ruining everything and crowding the roads, etc. But when I try to connect abortion and over population, he simply says "That has nothing to do with it" and he refuses to discuss that aspect of the issue.

In other words, he laments the millions of abortions per year and hates the thousands of people that make is day worse simply by being, and he doesn't think they should be connected in any discussion.

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #47 on: September 05, 2013, 06:21:55 PM »
Far more pregnancies are prevented by birth control than ended by abortion. Women don't really have lots of abortions if contraception is available. Abortion is not every woman's first go-to for family planning, despite what anti-abortion folks say. Most women never have a single abortion, some women have one in their lifetime and a few women have more than one.  In fact, far more women have babies when they get pregnant than have abortions, even when the pregnancy was unplanned and/or unwanted.

Why would a woman choose the more unpleasant, more expensive and more difficult option of going to a medical provider and enduring some invasive, painful procedure instead of taking one pill every day? Women would prefer not to have any abortions, and most women try to avoid them. It boggles the mind how some people think--who are these women who like to have abortions so much that they need to be prevented from doing so by restrictive laws?

As for the friend who thinks US cities are too crowded: he should take a trip to a city in Asia, Africa or Latin America. And if people had every single baby it was possible to have, your friend would be complaining instead about the lack of soylent green crackers in his ration package. :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #48 on: September 06, 2013, 12:13:59 PM »
Because they think with their holy book and not their brains.

-Nam

Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #49 on: September 22, 2013, 09:23:08 AM »
*First post after stalking for a few months.*

IMO, abortion is kind, in a way.
But being that heaven is nonexistent, and that fetus's are incapable of advanced thought, its neither bad nor good.
Perhaps good if the fetus is a result of rape.
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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #50 on: September 22, 2013, 06:34:06 PM »
*First post after stalking for a few months.*

IMO, abortion is kind, in a way.
But being that heaven is nonexistent, and that fetus's are incapable of advanced thought, its neither bad nor good.
Perhaps good if the fetus is a result of rape.

I tend to agree with part of your post: that abortion is neither bad nor good in an absolute sense. Is giving birth, getting breast implants, undergoing a root canal or having open heart surgery bad or good? Obviously it would depend on the people involved and the circumstances of the event. That is why the people involved, particularly the person with the fetus inside her, should decide.

If the pregnant person is a mentally handicapped 13-year-old who was impregnated by her father, I would say giving birth is a bad thing--making abortion a good thing. If the person getting breast implants is a 35-year-old woman who just had a double mastectomy, I would judge it a good thing. There was recently a case of a corrupt dentist who did hundreds of root canals on patients who did not need them, just for the insurance money.  :o Very Bad Thing. A 95-year-old undergoing heart surgery where the recovery prospects are poor and the anesthesia alone will probably kill him? Bad thing.

But other people might disagree with me. Clearly, the criminal dentist did. :P
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Aeron

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #51 on: September 27, 2013, 08:30:35 PM »
Assuming god is going to burn you in hell for performing abortion or getting an abortion.  If done for the right reason isn't abortion about the highest selfless act a human can be involved in.

If am religious and a firm believer in god and I decide to abort a fetus knowing full well I will receive ultimate punishment a sacrafice that rivals or surpasses that of jesus's time on the cross.  By aborting a fetus I give a soul a one way pass to heaven, that being need ever risk hell for some transgression like the crime of not believing.  So in essence I sacrifice my everlasting soul so that a human need never risk ultimate suffering.

An abortion doctor who does this save 10's of thousands of souls in his lifetime.

Well, first things first, the bible nor "god" say anything in the bible about abortion. The biblical writers never talked about when life started, nor did they know how it even happened. It's hard to ask biblical texts the modern question, "when does human life begin?" because the Bible has a very different understanding of human reproduction. Biblical writers don't talk about sperm fertilizing eggs. They talk about male "seed" planted in fertile female ground. Just as a seed becomes a plant when it emerges from the ground, so too a man's planted seed becomes another human being when it emerges from the womb.

Even the biblical laws about miscarrying because a woman was injured by a man was more about property loss, not murder. Just refer to Exodus 21:22-25. Abortion is about what is right for the person having it done,

Offline Jag

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #52 on: September 27, 2013, 09:52:19 PM »
Actually it says this on the matter of when life begins:
Genesis 2:7 "He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man
became a living being”.
And this:
Ezekiel 37:5&6 “Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter
you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh
to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall
live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.”

So according to these two passages, life begins at first breath.

I'm pretty sure there are more, and sometimes you get back a passage about God knowing you in the womb, I can't recall chapter and verse though.
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Offline Angus and Alexis

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2013, 04:30:29 AM »
Actually it says this on the matter of when life begins:
Genesis 2:7 "He breathed into his nostrils the breath of life and it was then that the man
became a living being”.
And this:
Ezekiel 37:5&6 “Thus says the Lord God to these bones: Behold, I will cause breath to enter
you, and you shall live. And I will lay sinews upon you, and will cause flesh
to come upon you, and cover you with skin, and put breath in you, and you shall
live; and you shall know that I am the Lord.”

So according to these two passages, life begins at first breath.

I'm pretty sure there are more, and sometimes you get back a passage about God knowing you in the womb, I can't recall chapter and verse though.

One thing i find funny about that verse, god does not give him organs, fingernails, hair, teeth, etc.
Therefore Adam died the second he lived, as he lacked a brain...
Thus life starts at death? What?
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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #54 on: October 28, 2013, 12:18:05 AM »
While you make a good point, note that abortions are rare. Women don't like abortions any more than the fundies do. They just don't have any other choice.

You always have a choice.  You could have it and give it up for adoption.  Or try to raise her yourself. 

Your logic is similar to somebody saying they don't like slavery but they don't want to ban it. 
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #55 on: October 28, 2013, 12:35:44 AM »
And now the troll spills onto another thread.

Yes, there is always a choice, DrT.  Sometimes the choices are nauseating.  Offering another choice is not inherently wrong, just because other choices already exist.

Slaves have choices, too, btw.  They can work, or die.  The presence of a choice doesn't make them free, nor does it mean that offering more choices is wrong.
Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something.  lol  i'd like to punish her with  my baby.  lol

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #56 on: October 28, 2013, 01:27:53 AM »
And now the troll spills onto another thread.

Yes, there is always a choice, DrT.  Sometimes the choices are nauseating.  Offering another choice is not inherently wrong, just because other choices already exist.

Slaves have choices, too, btw.  They can work, or die.  The presence of a choice doesn't make them free, nor does it mean that offering more choices is wrong.

what choice does the fetus/baby get.

Do you think the fetus feels no pain when it is aborted? 

my slavery analogy was to point out how the "necessary evil" logic used to be applied by white people to that issue,  and the logic used to defend abortion rights is basically it is a necessary evil. 

how it is trolling to state an opinion on an opinion board.  my opinion is non-binding.  I've got no power to stop anybody from having an abortion.   i'm like that guy on Seinfield who was against abortion and Elaine dumped him b/c of it.
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #57 on: October 28, 2013, 01:36:00 AM »
What choice do the plants in your garden get?

"Choice" only applies to creatures with minds.  A zygote does not have the necessary hardware for a mind.  As an engineer, you should be able to grasp that.

And I didn't say you were trolling this thread, just that you're a troll.
Unless you are Scarlett Johansason or something.  lol  i'd like to punish her with  my baby.  lol