Author Topic: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?  (Read 12320 times)

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Offline DrTesla

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #145 on: October 30, 2013, 10:07:53 AM »
Bible says thou shalt not kill.    Life begins at conception because without conception we would not be here.

Your assumptiono is that "God"  has control over when people die.    You don't think it is possible we were created but he has no control over what happens in our lives,  like Honda  isn't at fault if somebody driving one of their cars is in a car wreck.

the case against abortion isn't religious in nature,    you want it to be so you can say that you aren't religious and thus it is ok.   
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #146 on: October 30, 2013, 10:14:23 AM »
Bible says thou shalt not kill.    Life begins at conception because without conception we would not be here.

Your assumptiono is that "God"  has control over when people die.    You don't think it is possible we were created but he has no control over what happens in our lives,  like Honda  isn't at fault if somebody driving one of their cars is in a car wreck.

the case against abortion isn't religious in nature,    you want it to be so you can say that you aren't religious and thus it is ok.

Reader pauses to laugh........
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Offline Dante

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #147 on: October 30, 2013, 10:21:18 AM »

Your assumptiono is that "God"  has control over when people die.    You don't think it is possible we were created but he has no control over what happens in our lives,  like Honda  isn't at fault if somebody driving one of their cars is in a car wreck.

One would think that the buck stops at the omniscient overseer of the entire universe.

But, if it's not your god's fault that so many zygotes are naturally aborted, whose fault is it?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline DrTesla

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #148 on: October 30, 2013, 10:25:43 AM »
trying to justify murder of innocents by asserting a God that you don't believe in  also murders innocents.

so it is a two wrongs makes a right argument, along with a big assumption that the God you don't believe in purposely aborts this babies in miscarriages.

lol
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #149 on: October 30, 2013, 10:26:36 AM »
It's called "critiquing a religious position" - never seen it before, eh?
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Offline Dante

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #150 on: October 30, 2013, 10:55:27 AM »
trying to justify murder of innocents by asserting a God that you don't believe in  also murders innocents.

No, it is merely to show you how hypocritical your beliefs are.

But why didn't you answer my question?

Quote
so it is a two wrongs makes a right argument, along with a big assumption that the God you don't believe in purposely aborts this babies in miscarriages.

No, it is merely to show you how hypocritical your beliefs are.

But why didn't you answer my question?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #151 on: October 30, 2013, 10:56:33 AM »
Bible says thou shalt not kill. 

No, it says 'thou shalt do no murder. That is nearly the same but not quite. After all, if Christians actually obeyed 'thou shalt not kill' there would be no death penalties, and no fighting in wars which have a tendency to kill people.

Quote
  Life begins at conception because without conception we would not be here.

Life does, but 'not as we know it, Jim'. Sure the zygote is alive but think of the dangers it faces. It has to manage to follow the fallopian tube to the uterus and then manage to implant into the wall of the uterus - steps that many zygotes fail. Of course no one knows there is a zygote - its only some weeks after its formation and successful implantation that anyone knows its there.

The next danger for the poor zygote is remaining implanted. No all implanted zygotes make it - quite a lot disappear before anyone really knows about them. Then, throughout the pregnancy, the foetus might spontaneously abort. Even if it makes it through to 16 weeks it is a great deal different from a baby - it can't survive on its own, its brain isn't very developed etc. Really, a foetus up to that stage is better thought of a potential human.

Now, we need to remember, too, that no aborting a foetus might end up a lot worse. There is no right and wrong in this. If a baby is born to a teenage girl who hasn't the capacity or income to support it what then for the child? Or if the child is severely disabled from birth or has a disease that ends in a painful death in childhood? What about a person who is raped - should she have to carry the child of a rapist and be constantly reminded of that most dreadful crime?

This is no easy moral matter and one that needs to be considered carefully ofr each case. Blanket decisions are likely to be flawed.

Quote
Your assumption is that "God"  has control over when people die.    You don't think it is possible we were created but he has no control over what happens in our lives,  like Honda  isn't at fault if somebody driving one of their cars is in a car wreck.

Have you read Psalm 39 recently. I do recommend it. Verse 13 is a good place to start. Then say god has no control over what happens. The fact is the astonishing fail rate of zygotes does say something for the design of the whole system and  suggests that either there is no designer or, if there is and it is god, he is not up to being worshipped.

Quote
The case against abortion isn't religious in nature,    you want it to be so you can say that you aren't religious and thus it is ok.

Well, true, people make a case out against abortion who are not religious but mostly it is religious based decision. I have made the case for it above without reference to religion so I am quite happy to debate it with you on that basis but certainly, in most countries, the vast majority of people campaign against abortion are religious. (Apparently shooting to death doctors who do abortions is also religious.)
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline screwtape

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #152 on: October 30, 2013, 11:38:48 AM »
I pay taxes that go to the welfare state.  What else can I do? 

You could leave the country.  I would support that.  In fact, I would happily purchase a one way ticket for you to go to Somalia.  I think you would like Somalia. They believe in ID there.  We could have a contract drawn up.  I will purchase the ticket contingent upon you acquiring Somali citizenship and forfeiting US citizenship.  Send me your contact information so we can get this underway ASAP.

They can give the baby up for adoptiion

I've already provided data showing that an abortion is 14 times less likely to kill a woman than a full term pregnancy.  Why would anyone subject themselves to more risk than nescessary?  Plus pregnancy knocks the hell out of a woman even without complications.  They are never the same after.

This is irrevalant to the question of is it terminating life or not. 

I think whether it is a human person is irrelevant.  People have the right to kill other adults under many circumstances.  I this is one I consider to be valid.  Do people or do they not have the right to have things removed from their own bodies?  Even if it is a little person with full awareness, why does it have a right to stay in someone's uterus who does not want it there?

I think most fetuses...

Nobody cares what your stupid opinions are.  You have already convinced everyone here you know practically nothing.  Provide facts and data or gtfo.



Boom.  I.Am.Legend.

In.Your.Own.Mind.

Boom.


10 out of 10 fetuses would choose life if they could speak and were aware of their fate. 

And 10 out of 10 cows would rather not be hamburger.




Bible says thou shalt not kill.    Life begins at conception because without conception we would not be here.

And then it goes on to describe a multitude of episodes where god orders one group of people to kill another.  But it does not say life begins at conception. 

Nor does it say abortion is wrong.  IN fact, it says if a baby is less than one month old, it is essentially irrelevant:
Quote from: Lev27:6
for a person between one month and five years, set the value of a male at five shekels of silver and that of a female at three shekels of silver;

The bible is not your friend in this argument.

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Offline Wasserbuffel

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #153 on: October 30, 2013, 12:02:34 PM »
Quote
I think whether it is a human person is irrelevant.  People have the right to kill other adults under many circumstances.  I this is one I consider to be valid.  Do people or do they not have the right to have things removed from their own bodies?  Even if it is a little person with full awareness, why does it have a right to stay in someone's uterus who does not want it there?

This is it exactly.  We're under no obligation to share our bodies, or any parts, with others. I don't hear all these so called "pro-lifers" arguing that every healthy adult should be obligated to donate their blood. Even though we know the act of donating blood saves lives.

Offline Nam

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #154 on: October 30, 2013, 12:11:02 PM »
Bible says thou shalt not kill.    Life begins at conception because without conception we would not be here.

Your assumptiono is that "God"  has control over when people die.    You don't think it is possible we were created but he has no control over what happens in our lives,  like Honda  isn't at fault if somebody driving one of their cars is in a car wreck.

the case against abortion isn't religious in nature,    you want it to be so you can say that you aren't religious and thus it is ok.   

I think you meant Toyota, and if someone puts out a faulty product then they are at fault.

Try again.

-Nam
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 12:30:37 PM by Nam »
This is my signature "Nam", don't I have nice typing skills?

Offline Nam

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #155 on: October 30, 2013, 12:14:00 PM »
It's called "critiquing a religious position" - never seen it before, eh?

Of course not. Critiquing atheism...sure but religion!?!?

-Nam
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #156 on: October 30, 2013, 12:17:17 PM »
<snip> I.Am.Legend.

This is quite apt.

SPOILER ALERT

In the novel the "legend" was a relic of a bygone age who couldn't grasp the new order of things and routinely murdered innocents based on his erroneous preconceptions.

Indeed, his last words are "[I am] a new superstition entering the unassailable fortress of forever. I am legend."

Offline DrTesla

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #157 on: October 30, 2013, 12:21:36 PM »
Are the guys on this thread planning on getting pregnant soon?   lol

i wouldn't think a male would care enough about the ability to have an legal abortion to want to talk about it on the internet.   
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #158 on: October 30, 2013, 12:24:26 PM »
Are the guys on this thread planning on getting pregnant soon?   lol

i wouldn't think a male would care enough about the ability to have an legal abortion to want to talk about it on the internet.

Why? This is a human rights issue after all.
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Offline Dante

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #159 on: October 30, 2013, 12:28:37 PM »
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline DrTesla

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #160 on: October 30, 2013, 12:47:30 PM »
Are the guys on this thread planning on getting pregnant soon?   lol

i wouldn't think a male would care enough about the ability to have an legal abortion to want to talk about it on the internet.

Why? This is a human rights issue after all.

lol, kind of like claiming states rights to keep the institution of slavery.
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline DrTesla

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #161 on: October 30, 2013, 12:52:53 PM »
I hold these truths as self evident:
Most Christians are opposed to abortion but that does not mean the reason is based in religion.
Many atheists are opposed to abortion therefore it is not a religious issue.
The Bible is not source authority on the nature of "God", if "God" exists.  So quoting the Bible to show "hypocrisy"  is silly.   
There can be a God that isn't the biblical God.
Pro-lifers are pro-innocent life.  Liberals are pro-death, they are pro-abortion and pro-murderer not getting the death penalty.
If war shows hypocrisy then was liberating Europeans from Hitler in WW2  a bad thing?
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline DrTesla

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #162 on: October 30, 2013, 12:55:43 PM »
trollery removed
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 02:57:44 PM by screwtape »
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline Zankuu

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #163 on: October 30, 2013, 01:06:34 PM »
Troll on, man.
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Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #164 on: October 30, 2013, 01:07:21 PM »
All the males who support abortion are male pigs who want to be able to have casual sex and not deal with any unintended consequences.   These are basically Bill Clinton types.  The irony of abortion is it unites militant anti-men femi-nazis  with the male pigs like Clinton.  lol

Many males only say they are pro-abortion because they think that makes it easier for them to get a date with a young woman, who tend to be single issue voters on abortion.   So it really just pandering.

Share your vast experience, please.
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Offline DrTesla

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #165 on: October 30, 2013, 01:10:23 PM »
I'm not attracted to women who have no problem putting down their own child.   barbaric cavewomen.
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #166 on: October 30, 2013, 01:11:47 PM »
Well, it's a good thing that women who are willing to abort their pregnancies don't fall under that category.

Though...what if you just wanted to punish them, and attraction was secondary to that goal?

Let's say you got angry at a bad movie and wanted to punish Scarlet Johansson, so you went and raped her.

She gets pregnant from it, of course, and you hope that she has to endure the punishment you've set up for her.

What moral obligation does she have to keep your offspring in her womb, DrTroll?  It's not yet a person.  Surely you'd like it to be, so that she would be forced suffer, but what is the rationale for labelling it as such?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline DrTesla

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #167 on: October 30, 2013, 01:14:13 PM »
Well, it's a good thing that women who are willing to abort their pregnancies don't fall under that category.

Though...what if you just wanted to punish them, and attraction was secondary to that goal?

Let's say you got angry at a bad movie and wanted to punish Scarlet Johansson, so you went and raped her.

She gets pregnant from it, of course, and you hope that she has to endure the punishment you've set up for her.

What moral obligation does she have to keep your offspring in her womb, DrTroll?  It's not yet a person.  Surely you'd like it to be, so that she would be forced suffer, but what is the rationale for labelling it as such?

Troll = Pro lifer laying it down on the internet. 

her obligation is to be a decent person is a civilized society.   neanderthals kill their offspring.   

do you think the man has no say in the matter?  takes two to tango

Scarlett would have a hard time keeping her hands off me because i am eye candy obviously.
« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 01:16:41 PM by DrTesla »
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline Foxy Freedom

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #168 on: October 30, 2013, 01:20:43 PM »
Well, it's a good thing that women who are willing to abort their pregnancies don't fall under that category.

Though...what if you just wanted to punish them, and attraction was secondary to that goal?

Let's say you got angry at a bad movie and wanted to punish Scarlet Johansson, so you went and raped her.

She gets pregnant from it, of course, and you hope that she has to endure the punishment you've set up for her.

What moral obligation does she have to keep your offspring in her womb, DrTroll?  It's not yet a person.  Surely you'd like it to be, so that she would be forced suffer, but what is the rationale for labelling it as such?

Troll = Pro lifer laying it down on the internet. 

her obligation is to be a decent person is a civilized society.   neanderthals kill their offspring.   

do you think the man has no say in the matter?  takes two to tango

Scarlett would have a hard time keeping her hands off me because i am eye candy obviously.

What does your wife say about this? Would she want Scarlett to have an abortion?

« Last Edit: October 30, 2013, 01:22:54 PM by Foxy Freedom »
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Offline Azdgari

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #169 on: October 30, 2013, 01:21:49 PM »
Troll = Pro lifer laying it down on the internet.

The two are often pretty similar, I agree.  But I was referring to you in general.  Not all anti-abortion folks engage in your sort of trollish banter.

her obligation is to be a decent person is a civilized society.

Yes, but what does that have to do with the price of tea in China?  Plus, in this hypothetical you'd also raped her.  Was that a decent, civilized thing to do?

neanderthals kill their offspring.

And here I thought neanderthals were all dead.  Hmm.

do you think the man has no say in the matter?  takes two to tango

See above.  What say should a rapist have in the pregnancy of his victim?
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline DrTesla

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #170 on: October 30, 2013, 01:28:36 PM »
Most pro-lifers would give exceptions for rape/incest/probable death of mother in childbirth.  that is only like 7 percent of abortions combined.
the other 93 percent would then be banned  for it is just about delayed birth control.

now, I have said that I support abortion if mothers will perform it themselves.   I will provide the coat hangars. 
I was watching Game of Thrones Season 1, and i think it was very first episode.   Ned Stark teaches his son that if he should behead any manwith his own sword that he sentences to die.  thus, it will not be so easy to sentence somebody to die.    So I think women should have to do the dirty deed themselves in abortion as they have senetnced the innocent to die.
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla

Offline Wasserbuffel

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #171 on: October 30, 2013, 01:45:07 PM »
Quote
the other 93 percent would then be banned  for it is just about delayed birth control.

Once again proving you know nothing on the subject.

Not surprising.

Quote
Most pro-lifers would give exceptions for rape/incest/probable death of mother in childbirth.

Except in the case of the mother's life, this is the most disgusting position to hold. If you believe that abortion is wrong because of the inherent value of human life, then there should be absolutely NO exception in the case of rape or incest. Zip, zilch, nada.

But forced-birthers are all about punishment and control of women. They don't actually care about babies.

Offline Jag

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #172 on: October 30, 2013, 01:46:42 PM »
So, it's apparently time to lay waste to the f**ing ridiculous argument that adoption is a viable alternative to abortion. It's flawed on both a physical level and an intellectual one but the biggest flaw of all is that this is really what these lying fucks are promoting. THAT is a complete crock of crap.

Let's start with the obvious - adoption is not an alternative to pregnancy, it's an alternative to parenting.  Proposing it as an alternative to pregnancy is deflection of the worst sort, and the majority of the dumbasses who try using this argument are shocked silent when this point is made - they've literally never thought about it. Yet they think they are better positioned than the pregnant woman to make decisions about her choices, the thick idiots. But this kind of dumb is not a surprise really.

The one I just can't get past is their apparent belief that everyone else is just as stupid.... if the pro-forced-birth crowd ACTUALLY meant what they say about adoption as a viable alternative - why in the F*CK do I not see a nationwide public awareness campaign aimed at educating people about adoption, instead of protests at Planned Parenthood clinic? Why are they not directing their time, energy, and resources at THEIR OWN PROPOSED ALTERNATIVE?

Because they're f'ing liars, that's why. And they rope in people like our good DrT, and encourage him to go out and spread the word, never realizing that some of us DO see their lying f'ing hypocrisy for exactly what it is -lying f'ing hypocrisy.

It's too bad the same can't be said of DrT, who seems to have swallowed it whole and accepted his task of regurgitating it to people who already know better.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline DrTesla

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Re: Isn't abortion the kindest thing one can do for another being?
« Reply #173 on: October 30, 2013, 01:48:09 PM »
you miss the political aspect.

if you don't give the exceptions for rape then you don't get anything.   only a fool operates on all or nothing.  if we can save 93 percent of babies from brutal homicide then we take that that.   

obviously a raped woman did not have consensual sex so that is a complicated situation. 
"You want to know who just loves abortions? God loves abortions. He performs them all the time and not even for the money. "  NoGodsForMe

"I wish it was men who got pregnant b/c we would squirt out these babies and go about our business.  We don't have be divas on this stuff."  DrTesla