Poll

Does God exist?  (Magical creator of the universe either hands on or hands off God)

God or gods do not exist
19 (37.3%)
God or gods are not likely
16 (31.4%)
I don't know but I see no evidence of a god
11 (21.6%)
God or gods are likely
1 (2%)
God or gods do exist
4 (7.8%)

Total Members Voted: 51

Author Topic: Does god exist  (Read 4704 times)

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #116 on: July 09, 2013, 05:30:51 AM »

Bugger!  &) So you've jumped to exactly the wrong conclusion that I warned about in the post directly after.

The obvious point, which you missed, is that in Downs Syndrome we can see physical abnormalities associated with mental abnormalities.  Both are clearly caused by genetic abnormalities.  The lesson is that mental abnormalities (including criminal tendencies) can be genetic - in which case not the fault of the person afflicted.  More and more science is telling us this.  With this knowledge we are obliged to step back and assess our responses to criminal behaviour. 

I hope you get the point now that I've spelt it out a second time.


And this response of yours specifically ignores the information about genetic predisposition, and that we should not automatically condemn a person for what their environment did to them.  One doesn't condone criminality, but empathy should kick in as well as an open mind willing to search for other approaches and answers.  But I hope you've grasped this by now  :)

I am going to take into consideration that we haven't debated much.  If we had you'd know you're way off base in your analysis of my empathy.   I didn't say a word in my post that suggests psychopaths don't need empathy.  What is it when I say that it will take love and compassion to deal with this disease.  My POV is that it doesn't prove the non existence of God.  It proves that flesh is not perfect.  I am also still convinced a lot of the problem comes from pollution.

I did not ignore your statement.  What a baseless accusation.  I was responding to NoGODS anyway. 


On top of all this you really can't test newborns for being a psychopath. I have this friend, she was perfectly normal until the age of 22/23.  Then her brain went haywire and she was diagnosed as paranoid-schizophrenic; she is not violent.  If she was born this way why did it not reveal itself until adulthood?  Most people with bi-polar disorder do not have it until young adulthood.  I also believe it is extremely over diagnosed.  They do not even test the brain to diagnose bi-polar disorder.  They ask you a few questions dope you up and send you on your way. 

Either way the argument doesn't work to prove the non existence of God.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #117 on: July 09, 2013, 05:35:17 AM »

What I object to is saying that all criminal behavior, even violent behavior, is due to greed or up to individual choice.  The really violent scary criminals, serial killers and such, are not motivated by normal human need for money to buy things. Therefore, the kind of social policies that would reduce most crime (decriminalizing most drugs, universal health care including mental health, etc) will not affect these folks. They are as god made them.... :P

Has this theory been tested?  Not in the country I live in. :?
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #118 on: July 09, 2013, 05:55:40 AM »
There are a lot more healthy babies born than not. 

No, do the math:
Quote
In general, less than 50% of all fertilized eggs will even implant into the mother's womb causing pregnancy to continue. From there, there is a 25-50% chance of aborting before you even know you are pregnant. If, however, you make it to your first month, your odds go up to 75% chance of carrying to term.
http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Spontaneous_abortion_in_humans

And what we think is "healthy" is most likely not. The majority of us are born with genes that will severely compromise or kill us before pure and simple aging (e.g. somatic cell DNA reproduction errors and oxidation) would.

 :o It is a common fact that life expectancy is 70 years.  That's old and gray is it not?  The most common reason for death in the young; car accidents, not genetics.  You use the word most very liberally here.

75% is a majority.  So what is the percentage of babies being born psychopathic?

My def. of healthy babies; not having any disease at birth.  I have not heard of any up rise in birth defects.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline William

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #119 on: July 09, 2013, 06:43:53 AM »
I did not ignore your statement.  What a baseless accusation.  I was responding to NoGODS anyway. 

Please re-read your reply at post #84 in this thread. You quoted my post and you were responding to me.
Git mit uns

Offline junebug72

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #120 on: July 10, 2013, 06:49:33 AM »
^My bad.  I still don't see how you get I ignored you.  I don't have to agree with you.  It's not the same thing. 

No response but this? :?  Does this mean you agree with me?

It was your article that supported my opinion.  I couldn't let that go w/o pointing it out to you.  Y'all won't convince me that violence is not a consequence of environment no matter what birth defect a child might have.

I am very uncomfortable releasing parents of the responsibility they have to society and their children.  That's all this discussion is.

I watched this show last night called Born Schizophrenic.  I am not usually a violent person but I wanted to smack those parents.  I bet anyone could have a perfectly healthy baby and tell her she's schizo at the age of 1 and make a schizophrenic child.  Yea big coincidence her little brother is too.  Parents seemed normal enough but there is something seriously wrong with those two.  All the symptoms they spoke of are typical child behaviors.  They don't come out knowing how to behave.  You have to teach them.  If those kids are sick so are the rest of them.  I was outraged at what I saw.  I only watched it because of this discussion.  My take, the mom and dad have no discipline skills so they dope their children up.  I see it happen all the time and what this does is tarnish our studies of real mental disease.  They don't need dope they need Super Nanny!!!  I've seen the same behaviors on that show wrapped up in 2 weeks with good discipline.  Those ladies are awesome.

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #121 on: July 10, 2013, 03:06:32 PM »

 :o It is a common fact that life expectancy is 70 years.  That's old and gray is it not?  The most common reason for death in the young; car accidents, not genetics.  You use the word most very liberally here.

75% is a majority.  So what is the percentage of babies being born psychopathic?

My def. of healthy babies; not having any disease at birth.  I have not heard of any up rise in birth defects.

I think the point of the previous post was that most genetic problems get stopped naturally by miscarriage at the fertilized egg stage, before a woman even knows she is pregnant. She just has a late period, not realizing that was a fertilized egg with a defect. 

(Isn't that what many religious people say when a woman has a miscarriage of a baby she wanted? It was god's way of preventing a baby with health problems from being born. Of course the same people say that if the baby will be born without a brain and will only live for a few hours, or is even already dead, she is not supposed to have an abortion...)

And, since we now have the technology to save babies born at younger and younger stages of development (like 6 months gestation, or even earlier) we are likely to see an increase in birth defects. Some of the interventions that save the babies (oxygen, steroids) actually cause later health problems.

Some of these problems will show up early and others may not show up until much later in life. We do not have tests for all these problems, so we find out when the kid is 10 and can't read, or when the person is 25 and can't concentrate well enough to hold a job.
 
Yes, the environment is very important, but how our bodies and minds react to the environmental factors is often due to inherited characteristics. For example, many people smoke, but only some get cancer. Many people are abused as kids, but only some become violent adults. Many people drink or take drugs, but only some become alcoholics or addicts. Genetics factors may even determine which soldiers in combat are going to get PTSD and who won't.

Life expectancy is an average figure. It already takes into account the fact that childhood leukemia, sickle cell, and other conditions will make some people die before they get old. We are increasingly aware that genetics plays an important role in how long we live, and what our quality of life will be.

Genetic tendencies may explain why one kid in a family turns out to be a psychopath, and the others with the same upbringing, food, pollution exposure, etc. are normal. Someday there may be tests for that; as I said before, it will become an ethical problem as to what to do with a person who "tests" as a psychopath but has not committed any crimes. Yet.

In the litigious US, I see future lawsuits brought by victims' families against the people who "knew that he had tested positive for psychopathology and did nothing about it..." :-\


Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline epidemic

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #122 on: July 12, 2013, 12:01:29 PM »
Conversely, Can you find me a fallacy free argument that explains the universes ultimate origins and how you exclude a god from the list of possible alterantives.

I can do so as well. And like OAA, you have to demonstrate that you are willing to actually read it before I'm willing to go to the effort of explaining it.  A mindset that is receptive to being introduced to an approach that is very different from your own is also required, and I'm honestly not sure you are prepared to do so.

It's up to you to decide if you really want these answers or if you would prefer not to face the challenge they may present. My explanation isn't going anywhere and I can be persuaded to share it with you whenever you are ready to consider a perspective that contradicts your own. Until and unless you are truly interested, there's no point.

Sorry I lost this thread and have not returned to it.  Someone claimed I left because the questions were too hard.   This is not the case.   Although my time is a limited resource and I can not spend it learning physics to a level that I can be a physicist.

However watching physicists on watered down TV shows on discovery and reading web articles, I do not see any theories as to the moments before 1E-9,000,000,000 seconds after the big bang.  There is no apparent source for the big bang.  In essence the theory goes There was a singularity with infinite mass and for some reason began to expand space time.  There is no apparent source for the energy that ultimately created matter.  If you have a reasonable explaination for it I will try to understand it.  Readers digest version would be prefered.

As I read it everything came from nothing.  The singularity either always existed but it has no source. 




AS for those who say god is impossible because a being living outside space time can not possibly exist and or interact with space time.   Well I have no idea of what rules might govern a being outside of space time.   he/it/they/gods may well be able to interact with time that all depends on their abilities.  I can't think of why they would want to interact with something knowing the outcome but hey I am not in their shoes.

I don't suggest there is a god, I only accept that it is possible.  the probability of it is something I can not speculate.  I use the value of  99.999 % sure there is no God.  But people win the lottery against long odds.  Odds do not disprove things they just tell you their likelihood.