Poll

Does God exist?  (Magical creator of the universe either hands on or hands off God)

God or gods do not exist
19 (37.3%)
God or gods are not likely
16 (31.4%)
I don't know but I see no evidence of a god
11 (21.6%)
God or gods are likely
1 (2%)
God or gods do exist
4 (7.8%)

Total Members Voted: 51

Author Topic: Does god exist  (Read 3990 times)

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Offline jetson

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #58 on: July 05, 2013, 05:25:36 PM »
There are no gods, there never have been, and there never will be.  Gods are a human invention.

It's odd the "invention" is so persistent and almost universal even among the most remote tribes through all known history.

Not odd at all.  Humans have the ability to conceptualize, imagine, and create stories using their brains.  Obviously it's common, and even more common in the early days of humanity when they had no explanation for things like lightning, and floods, etc.

As we learn more and more about the universe we find ourselves in, it becomes immensely clear that we still have a lot to learn, and that we are constantly replacing our understandings with better explanations of things like lightning, through the scientific method, peer reviews, and scientific consensus.

The most important thing we have learned, in my opinion, is that we are not "special".  We invented that idea as well.  We are no more "special" than giraffes.  We just happen to reign superior in the brains department.  Just like eagles and hawks put us to shame in the eyesight department, and cheetahs make us look pathetic when it comes to top speed running.

We are another species - we are not a special breed of beings that some god desires us to worship.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #59 on: July 05, 2013, 05:30:51 PM »
I don't believe either one is an accident.
That's because they aren't accidents.  Both come from our inherent nature as human beings.

Telling stories to others is also part of our nature and does not happen by accident.  That doesn't necessarily mean that the stories are factual, or that they really happened.

It usually does.  Stories without any basis in reality are usually failures.
Lets take for example Alice falling down the rabbit hole.   
None of the story takes place as Alice falls down the hole.
Why not?   Because we can't relate to those events.  Events don't
usually happen while people are falling so we can't relate to that.
In Contact Jodie Foster said she visited other planets while falling.
No one could relate to that, so didn't believe.
Her story was of a "super-natural" event.
People don't believe in fictional stories, hardly at all.
And not supernatural ones.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 05:32:55 PM by SkyWriting »

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #60 on: July 05, 2013, 06:12:18 PM »
It's odd the "invention" is so persistent and almost universal even among the most remote tribes through all known history.

Which is exactly why an African god of yams and your god are equals. Neither exists, so neither need be considered superior.

I would think that the lack of consistency in god stories across cultures would give you pause. But the mere fact that many (not all, don't get too heady about this) cultures have gods is all you need to be impressed. Details would ruin the illusion, so I assume you skip that part.

They are made up to explain or appreciate something (creation, yams). That is the human tendency that is universal, not the gods themselves. Your faith, which you mentioned in a later post, is a requirement, since there is nothing actually there to worship. The big blank in the sky that has been filled with one fantastic creature or another cannot  survive if you and your brethren are not told that it is invisible and that you have to trust the stories. Were you told instead that he is right there (don't you see him), and you couldn't detect anything, you too would be an atheist. But the faith part, which you so much trust, is a relatively effective replacement, and for you and many others provides reality via invisibility.

That doesn't make religion legitimate. It makes religion a phenomenon that takes advantage of certain vulnerabilities in the human brain. It is somewhat ironic that the mind that is being fooled is so happy about it. But then, fantasies of all sorts are able to please us. Who among us hasn't imagined a sexier spouse, a bigger paycheck, a faster car. Even for just a few minutes.

The problem with the god thing is that is seems to last a lifetime for most people. Be they Yahweh or for Yams.  Being fooled for that long isn't something to be proud of.
Not everyone is entitled to their own opinion. They're all entitled to mine though.

Offline Samothec

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #61 on: July 05, 2013, 06:15:16 PM »
SkyWriting
Correlation is not the same as causation.
He never indicated a cause; he only indicated a correlation.

What you've shown is that people in poor areas are more likely to gain a larger part of their limited education from religious institutions.  People in wealthier parts of the country will receive more of their education through government or secular learning institutions.  The more educated you are, the more likely you will gain your education through a secular source. 

What your chart shows is that a lack of income exposes people to a more religious education.  This is true worldwide.
No, what he showed in the chart is a correlation between several negative factors: religiosity, low intelligence, poverty, crime, and divorce. And an inverse correlation between those negative factors and generosity.
You are claiming causation and without any support for your claim.


junebug72
I just want to point out to you that it wasn't dummies that created nuclear bombs, poverty or pollution, or maybe they are! Yea a poor dumb kid might murder a couple of people but an intelligent scientist can destroy the world!!!
First, if you think only intelligent people were involved in the decisions and projects to make nuclear weapons, take another look at politicians – as they were very involved. No one "created" poverty itself. And, again, stupid people have been very involved in working to make others poor. Pollution comes from not letting scientists do the complete job of examining chemical processes – or, worse, ignoring what the scientists have told you to do to contain the pollution.

Next, your example of a dumb murderer versus a world-destroying scientist. Admittedly we don't want any world destroying since we only have the one. But we don't have catastrophic laboratory accidents like in the movies. We do have far too frequent murders. There is indeed a correlation between dumb and dangerous just as there is one between intelligent and safe. Note that correlation does not guarantee equivalence – there are dangerous smart people as well as safe stupid people but they are not the majority.


SkyWriting
There are no gods, there never have been, and there never will be.  Gods are a human invention.
It's odd the "invention" is so persistent and almost universal even among the most remote tribes through all known history.
Just like art and storytelling. Hmmm, maybe there is a correlation.


If you spend much time in the woods alone human faces might appear in time.   It seems to happen only when alone.
Not true. Pareidolia can happen at any time one is looking at one's environment.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline skepticlogician

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #62 on: July 05, 2013, 06:24:48 PM »
I don't believe either one is an accident.

If none of those are accidents, might as well include Pareidolia in there...
Does Pareidolia fill a universal natural need that is not naturally filled by society?

Indeed, fellowship and human intimacy is endowed unto us by our Creator
as a fundamental human need. 

So fellowship and human intimacy are CANNOT be filled by society, therefore Pareidolia is the only 'thing' that can "help" us out??  :D

If you spend much time in the woods alone
human faces might appear in time.   It seems to happen only when alone.

Absolutely incorrect, it does NOT seem to happen only when alone. Have you NEVER laid down on the grass looking at the sky with a group of friends, children or relatives and started finding faces in the clouds? That's called Pareidolia happening with a bunch of other people, not alone.
"Evolutionists have proof without any certainty. Creationists have certainty without any proof."

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #63 on: July 05, 2013, 08:31:13 PM »
There are no gods, there never have been, and there never will be.  Gods are a human invention.

It's odd the "invention" is so persistent and almost universal even among the most remote tribes through all known history.

So are the inventions of marriage, language, agriculture, family life and systems of laws. What is interesting is that all of these, including religion, are so very specific to geography. Until there is contact between the different groups, people do not know about each other's languages, crops, marriage customs or gods.

There is no universal definition of marriage or family that makes sense to every culture and for all times--polygyny, polyandry, child marriage, arranged marriage, same sex marriage, serial monogamy. Nuclear family, extended family, adoptive family, patrilocal with bio-dad as father figure, matrifocal with mother's brother as father figure are all common.

There is no one language that every culture speaks--languages from different regions do not even translate one-to-one. It takes a paragraph to explain what a "graduation" means in Samoan. And there is no English language equivalent for many family relationships in central Africa.

Similarly, there is no one religion or god that is found in every culture. Polytheism,  animism, monotheism, deism--these are fairly mutually exclusive. People don't believe in gods that do-- and at the same time do not --intervene in human affairs. These facts lead the rational observer to conclude that human beings invent all these things to solve universal problems, but in very different ways.

And btw, there are no gods, or any other supernatural or magical beings. If there are, please bring them on and let 'em thow down wit me.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #64 on: July 05, 2013, 09:30:42 PM »
Similarly, there is no one religion or god that is found in every culture.

Nor one spoon, fork and knife.  But a number of devices for some mysterious reason.
Why any Gods?

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #65 on: July 05, 2013, 09:33:16 PM »
I don't believe either one is an accident.

If none of those are accidents, might as well include Pareidolia in there...
Does Pareidolia fill a universal natural need that is not naturally filled by society?

Indeed, fellowship and human intimacy is endowed unto us by our Creator
as a fundamental human need. 

So fellowship and human intimacy are CANNOT be filled by society, therefore Pareidolia is the only 'thing' that can "help" us out??  :D

If you spend much time in the woods alone
human faces might appear in time.   It seems to happen only when alone.

Absolutely incorrect, it does NOT seem to happen only when alone. Have you NEVER laid down on the grass looking at the sky with a group of friends, children or relatives and started finding faces in the clouds? That's called Pareidolia happening with a bunch of other people, not alone.

I've only seen bunnies and miami dolphins in the clouds.  The faces usually jump out when I'm alone. Rarely if other people are around. 

Offline skepticlogician

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #66 on: July 05, 2013, 11:07:49 PM »
I've only seen bunnies and miami dolphins in the clouds.  The faces usually jump out when I'm alone. Rarely if other people are around.

Ok, I will let the 'faces only when alone' thing go, although I'm pretty sure that's not true for many of us even though it may be true for you. However, you still left both of my points unanswered.

Like I've mentioned, Pareidolia is a universal human phenomenon, regardless of whether it's faces or bunnies and dolphins (yes, seeing bunnies and dolphins when there are none is still Pareidolia).

With this in mind, let's go back to what you've said:
1. You said that all these universal tendencies are there to fill "a universal natural need that is not naturally filled by society".
2. You believe that Pareidolia provides "fellowship and human intimacy".

So, I have these two questions for you:
1. Given the fact that seeing bunnies and dolphins is also part of the Pareidolia phenomenon, how does that provide 'fellowship and human intimacy'?
2. Let's pretend that for a moment that indeed Pareidolia is there for the sole purpose of 'providing fellowship and human intimacy'... Are you saying that one can't satisfy these experiences through the everyday contact with other humans, except when one experiences the Pareidolia phenomenon?

Pray explain these for us  ;)

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Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #67 on: July 05, 2013, 11:38:26 PM »
I've only seen bunnies and miami dolphins in the clouds.  The faces usually jump out when I'm alone. Rarely if other people are around.

Ok, I will let the 'faces only when alone' thing go, although I'm pretty sure that's not true for many of us even though it may be true for you. However, you still left both of my points unanswered.

Like I've mentioned, Pareidolia is a universal human phenomenon, regardless of whether it's faces or bunnies and dolphins (yes, seeing bunnies and dolphins when there are none is still Pareidolia).

With this in mind, let's go back to what you've said:
1. You said that all these universal tendencies are there to fill "a universal natural need that is not naturally filled by society".
2. You believe that Pareidolia provides "fellowship and human intimacy".

So, I have these two questions for you:
1. Given the fact that seeing bunnies and dolphins is also part of the Pareidolia phenomenon, how does that provide 'fellowship and human intimacy'?
2. Let's pretend that for a moment that indeed Pareidolia is there for the sole purpose of 'providing fellowship and human intimacy'... Are you saying that one can't satisfy these experiences through the everyday contact with other humans, except when one experiences the Pareidolia phenomenon?

Pray explain these for us  ;)

Sure.  I see bunnies when with others reclining on a hiltop under a shady tree in summer.

I only see faces when on opiate medication or alone with no other people around.
Those facts fit my theory on companionship fine.

Offline skepticlogician

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #68 on: July 05, 2013, 11:49:17 PM »
Sure.  I see bunnies when with others reclining on a hiltop under a shady tree in summer.

I only see faces when on opiate medication or alone with no other people around.
Those facts fit my theory on companionship fine.

Pfff... you sound like the 'it is too!' kid when two children are arguing back and forth.
Is that how you always handle it when your arguments are handed back to you dismantled on a plate?  :laugh:
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Offline Astreja

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #69 on: July 05, 2013, 11:56:41 PM »
I have a lot of fun with pareidolia and can make out shapes in virtually any textured surface just by relaxing My eyes a bit.  I can see a face in a piece of linoleum, or poetry on a carpet.

The thing I see most regularly in the clouds?  Dragons!   8) Sometimes one, sometimes two, occasionally a whole mob of 'em heading north or south on an Important Mission.  Mostly I tend to see Ming Dynasty-style Chinese dragons, but every once in a while I get a glimpse of Takhisis, Queen of Darkness -- All five of Her heads spreading like a giant hand across half the sky (and for some reason, usually the eastern sky).  Very cool.

(Oh, and when I point them out other people can usually see them too.)
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #70 on: July 06, 2013, 12:06:21 AM »
Similarly, there is no one religion or god that is found in every culture.

Nor one spoon, fork and knife.  But a number of devices for some mysterious reason.
Why any Gods?

I don't quite understand your question, "why any gods"? It is clear why there are gods in every culture. Is that your question? There is a human need to understand, to explain and to control the environment. That is the short answer to "why any gods".

People invented gods to explain what they didn't yet understand and therefore could not control--why the volcano erupted and buried the village, what makes the caribou herd come over the mountain every year, how fire and noise comes from the sky during storms. People want to feel like they  have some control over these things-- if animate beings are the reason, you can ask these gods to be sure to bring the caribou this year, or to please placate the volcano.

When people began to understand some of these things, the gods retreated to other unexplained and uncontrolled areas--why some people get sick and not others, how it is that the people across the water have different colors and languages, why twins and triplets are born sometimes.

Now we have the scientific method to explain most of these things, and don't need magic beings as explanations anymore. When more people understand science, fewer believe in gods. But because many people don't yet understand these things, some still resort to gods.

Why do good people suffer and die from cancer, while bad people prosper and win money in the lottery? Why do babies survive pregnancy and birth, only to die of starvation or malaria after only a few weeks of life? Why would a person decide to rape and kill a group of children? Where do birds learn to fly in formation? How can a mentally handicapped person play the piano expertly or draw beautiful, photo-perfect pictures? Is there life elsewhere besides earth? Where did the universe come from?   

The easy thing is to say "because god". The hard thing is to investigate these questions and try to find the answers.  Since we will probably never understand everything, I suppose some people will always have the need for gods. :-\

btw My daughter and I have fun finding houses that look like faces. However, those "find the face in the trees" Pareidolia activities online give me the creeps after a while. I dread the faces jumping out at me unexpectedly..... :o
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline William

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #71 on: July 06, 2013, 01:40:48 AM »
Perhaps absolute accuracy is not critical.

Or more likely it is critical. 

A lot of good people had their lives cut short because they got some minor details about their god screwed up:



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Offline junebug72

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #72 on: July 06, 2013, 10:07:14 AM »

What was the "designer" doing with the genetics in these families?
What was the "designer" thinking when he/she/it made children susceptible to these criminal environments?  Why doesn't "encouragement" work equally in all people?

The concept of free will is confusing even to judges.  A diagnosis that a person is an untreatable psychopath (no choice) increases their sentence, but once the judges are told it's genetic (an explanation for no choice) they swing the other way  :o
Quote
Without a diagnosis, the judges surveyed said they would have given the man a sentence of about nine years. Once he had been diagnosed as an untreatable psychopath, however, the average sentence jumped to 14 years. When judges were presented with biological evidence of the genetic mutation, this sentence was lowered to around 13 years, regardless of whether the evidence was presented by the prosecution or defence.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn22189-scientific-explanation-of-psychopathy-cuts-jail-time.html#.UdbS3Mt-86Y

So what is fair for a person who is born different to others? Should we punish criminal individuals differently depending on how much empathy or "conscience" the "designer" gave them?

Isn't it the best thing for morality if we at least suspend the idea of a designer till we get to the bottom of this idea of free will and "choice"?

The concept of freewill is not confusing to me.  You have the right to chose right or wrong.  Wrong choices such as being an abusive parent have very negative consequences on the humans involved especially the children.  It then trickles down to society.

It is a human privilege with or w/o a creator.  All other species have no choices.  They survive from instinct.  Would a lion chose not to eat the gazelle?  A human can chose not to create violence or hardship on another human.  We can chose not to eat a cow. 

Why not create us w/o choice?  I believe whatever is beyond this life must be earned in this one by choosing good over bad. By proving yourself worthy of that knowledge and freedom.  There is also plenty of positive results in this life as well.

I don't see any thing wrong with taking a person's upbringing or mental handicaps under consideration in a criminal case.  I don't believe it is genetic I believe it is called learned behavior.   

Because all people are different.

 
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #73 on: July 06, 2013, 10:14:06 AM »

The concept of freewill is not confusing to me.  You have the right to chose right or wrong.  Wrong choices such as being an abusive parent have very negative consequences on the humans involved especially the children.  It then trickles down to society.

It is a human privilege with or w/o a creator.  All other species have no choices.  They survive from instinct.  Would a lion chose not to eat the gazelle?  A human can chose not to create violence or hardship on another human.  We can chose not to eat a cow. 

Why not create us w/o choice?  I believe whatever is beyond this life must be earned in this one by choosing good over bad. By proving yourself worthy of that knowledge and freedom.  There is also plenty of positive results in this life as well.

I don't see any thing wrong with taking a person's upbringing or mental handicaps under consideration in a criminal case.  I don't believe it is genetic I believe it is called learned behavior.   

Because all people are different.
Lions choose not to eat gazelles all the time, thats why there are still gazelles. You, as a human, survive from instinct. You eat to survive, regardless of what it is you choose to eat.

What would "without choice" look like to you?

Offline William

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #74 on: July 06, 2013, 10:47:58 AM »
I don't see any thing wrong with taking a person's upbringing or mental handicaps under consideration in a criminal case.  I don't believe it is genetic I believe it is called learned behavior.   

Because all people are different.

Junebug72, are you sure it's all learned behaviour?  Do Downs Syndrome people learn to be slow learners?  :?

I'm sure you said somewhere you are open to changing your beliefs based on new knowledge (i.e. science).  Here is some relatively new stuff in criminology - which is a science btw:

Quote
When a psychopath does inherit genetically-based, developmental disabilities, its is usually a stunted development of the higher functions of the brain. 30-38% of psychopaths show abnormal brain wave patterns, or EEGs. Infants and children typically have slower brain wave activity, but it increases as they grow up. Not with psychopaths. Eventually, the brain might mature as the psychopath ages. This may be why most serial killers are under 50. The abnormal brain wave activity comes from the temporal lobes and the limbic system of the brain, the areas that control memory and emotions. When development of this part of the brain is genetically impaired, and the parents of the child are abusive, irresponsible or manipulative, the stage is set for disaster.

Can psychopaths be successfully treated? According to the psychiatrists, "No."
http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/tick/psych_6.html


So Junebug72, are you willing (as you have stated) to update your beliefs based on science?



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Offline William

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #75 on: July 06, 2013, 11:07:02 AM »
Regarding my above post - before anyone thinks I'm suggesting Downs Syndrome people are criminals ... I'm not.  I'm using that as an extreme and obvious example that genetic factors exist.  And that we should look for genetic factors in people with all kinds of behaviours that don't fit the norm, even if they are not physically obvious.  Before we condemn, or blame people for "learning" the wrong stuff.
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #76 on: July 06, 2013, 12:12:24 PM »
So, I have these two questions for you:
1. Given the fact that seeing bunnies and dolphins is also part of the Pareidolia phenomenon, how does that provide 'fellowship and human intimacy'?
2. Let's pretend that for a moment that indeed Pareidolia is there for the sole purpose of 'providing fellowship and human intimacy'... Are you saying that one can't satisfy these experiences through the everyday contact with other humans, except when one experiences the Pareidolia phenomenon?

Pray explain these for us  ;)

Sure.  I see bunnies when with others reclining on a hiltop under a shady tree in summer.

I only see faces when on opiate medication or alone with no other people around.
Those facts fit my theory on companionship fine.
But they don't answer his actual questions.  This is called dodging, and it really doesn't fly here.

Offline Graybeard

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #77 on: July 06, 2013, 03:51:00 PM »
Stories without any basis in reality are usually failures.
Lets take for example Alice falling down the rabbit hole. None of the story takes place as Alice falls down the hole. Why not?   Because we can't relate to those events.  Events don't usually happen while people are falling so we can't relate to that.

There are 1420 words and 7 paragraphs on Alice falling. In that time, Alice wonders many things and sets the scene for what is to come.

Have you read Alice in Wonderland? If not, it is free to download at http://www.gutenberg.org/files/28885/28885-h/28885-h.htm

It is all too easy to relate to fictitious events.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #78 on: July 06, 2013, 05:37:26 PM »
"Stories without any basis in reality are usually failures." What?

As usual, SW has no idea what he is talking about. The entire genre of fantasy--incredibly successful, btw-- is based on stuff without any basis in reality. The Harry Potter and Twilight series were not failures, in case somebody has been in a buried in a hole for the past ten years.

People love stories about fairies, superheroes, talking animals, ghosts, mermaids, witches, unicorns, magical spells, humans raised by animals, enchanted princesses. Has SW never read a fairy tale or been to a Disney movie with his kids?

I guess it is just another attempt to account for the attraction of made-up religious stories that, strangely, sound just like fantasy tales. I guess he thinks there are really sassy young wizards chasing demons around England, or hot vampires battling it out in Forks, WA. See, they must be real or else people would not believe them....
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline pianodwarf

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #79 on: July 06, 2013, 06:54:05 PM »
"Stories without any basis in reality are usually failures." What?

As usual, SW has no idea what he is talking about. The entire genre of fantasy--incredibly successful, btw-- is based on stuff without any basis in reality. The Harry Potter and Twilight series were not failures, in case somebody has been in a buried in a hole for the past ten years.

And the really funny thing about it is that "SW" is common fan shorthand for "Star Wars".  :-)
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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #80 on: July 06, 2013, 09:21:42 PM »
Just wait, I'll bet he'll say that things like Star Wars and other successful fantasy/sci-fi stories are outliers and don't represent the bulk of fantasy and sci-fi.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #81 on: July 06, 2013, 11:11:33 PM »
Just wait, I'll bet he'll say that things like Star Wars and other successful fantasy/sci-fi stories are outliers and don't represent the bulk of fantasy and sci-fi.

Father, son, sister, aunt, uncle, home, chores, farming.....I was an usher on opening day, part 3. The settings were exotic but that story is about a farm boy doing good. 

Offline junebug72

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #82 on: July 07, 2013, 09:09:21 AM »

I just want to point out to you that it wasn't dummies that created nuclear bombs, poverty or pollution, or maybe they are! Yea a poor dumb kid might murder a couple of people but an intelligent scientist can destroy the world!!!

First, if you think only intelligent people were involved in the decisions and projects to make nuclear weapons, take another look at politicians – as they were very involved. No one "created" poverty itself. And, again, stupid people have been very involved in working to make others poor. Pollution comes from not letting scientists do the complete job of examining chemical processes – or, worse, ignoring what the scientists have told you to do to contain the pollution.

Next, your example of a dumb murderer versus a world-destroying scientist. Admittedly we don't want any world destroying since we only have the one. But we don't have catastrophic laboratory accidents like in the movies. We do have far too frequent murders. There is indeed a correlation between dumb and dangerous just as there is one between intelligent and safe. Note that correlation does not guarantee equivalence – there are dangerous smart people as well as safe stupid people but they are not the majority.

Are politicians not educated men? It is not intelligence they lack.  It is a conscience. 

Poverty is a side effect of capitalism.  It can not exist on it's on so it was created by a bunch of educated men w/o a conscience.  It can be abolished but the educated rich folk would lose too much money/ego. 

The greedy politician wouldn't have a nuclear warhead, were not for the scientist that created it; both w/o a conscience.

Greed is the road block not stupidity.

My bet is that it wasn't the dumbness that made the dumb guy violent but rather the atmosphere in which he grew up.  Show me a story of 1 dumb guy that was brought up in a loving family that murders.  That's why it's so important to be good loving parents.  So you don't raise a criminal.  The intelligent greedy guy creates the poverty that leads to low self esteems which leads to unwanted pregnancies, murder and hopelessness.  So I remain to believe that it is the intelligent person w/o a conscience that is the most dangerous of all. 

It is the conscience that will keep you up at night if you screw your neighbors wife that strongly encourages my belief in God.  The sweet peace that conscience feels when you do something for your fellow man.  This makes me more confident than not that there is a God that Loves us!!!  We are the only species that has a conscience.

Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #83 on: July 07, 2013, 09:17:31 AM »
Father, son, sister, aunt, uncle, home, chores, farming.....I was an usher on opening day, part 3. The settings were exotic but that story is about a farm boy doing good.
Actually, it was about said farm boy joining a revolution against a tyrannical government.  But that's not much of a difference.

By the way, a number of sci-fi and fantasy stories have a means to prevent someone from falling (antigravity or the equivalent).  Would you consider this part of an "exotic setting"?

Offline junebug72

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #84 on: July 07, 2013, 09:23:53 AM »


Junebug72, are you sure it's all learned behaviour?  Do Downs Syndrome people learn to be slow learners?  :?

I'm sure you said somewhere you are open to changing your beliefs based on new knowledge (i.e. science).  Here is some relatively new stuff in criminology - which is a science btw:


Quote
When a psychopath does inherit genetically-based, developmental disabilities, its is usually a stunted development of the higher functions of the brain. 30-38% of psychopaths show abnormal brain wave patterns, or EEGs. Infants and children typically have slower brain wave activity, but it increases as they grow up. Not with psychopaths. Eventually, the brain might mature as the psychopath ages. This may be why most serial killers are under 50. The abnormal brain wave activity comes from the temporal lobes and the limbic system of the brain, the areas that control memory and emotions. When development of this part of the brain is genetically impaired, and the parents of the child are abusive, irresponsible or manipulative, the stage is set for disaster.
[/b]


Can psychopaths be successfully treated? According to the psychiatrists, "No."

http://www.trutv.com/library/crime/serial_killers/notorious/tick/psych_6.html


So Junebug72, are you willing (as you have stated) to update your beliefs based on science?


The last sentence supports my POV, why would I change it?  As far as down syndrome, we were not discussing DS.  They are not violent people just because they have a learning disability.  Your article above specifically states the abusive/neglectful environment is required for this child to become violent.  Whether the child is dumb or intelligent is irrelevant except for the amount of damage this criminalized mind can accomplish.  The intelligent criminal will be more dangerous.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #85 on: July 07, 2013, 09:53:01 AM »
I just want to point out to you that it wasn't dummies that created nuclear bombs, poverty or pollution, or maybe they are! Yea a poor dumb kid might murder a couple of people but an intelligent scientist can destroy the world!!!
I think you'd better check your facts, junebug.  First off, poverty and pollution have existed pretty much since there were humans.  Pollution simply means things that cause adverse changes in the environment, such as dumping trash in a convenient body of water or out a window or simply tossing it into the street (all of which have happened for thousands of years; indeed, until scientists discovered that this pollution was a primary cause of disease, nobody thought anything of it).  And poverty's existed for a long time too - it existed in hunter-gatherer societies and early agricultural societies, and it's been with us ever since.

As far as nuclear bombs go, I think if you compare the number of people who have died to nuclear bombs to the number of people who have died to bullets, the first number isn't even a drop in the bucket.  Yes, scientists invented nuclear bombs.  They also argued against using them in warfare once they discovered the side-effects of nuclear explosions.  By the way, scientists also invented lots and lots of good things; your refrigerator, the engine in your car, airplanes, wires that could transmit electricity, the computer you wrote this post on, all sorts of vaccines against deadly diseases...  Do I need to go on?

Poverty is a side effect of capitalism.  It can not exist on it's on so it was created by a bunch of educated men w/o a conscience.  It can be abolished but the educated rich folk would lose too much money/ego.
Poverty has existed pretty much since there were humans.  I suggest you compare the lot of a poverty-stricken American to, oh, the lot of a hunter or gatherer from a primitive tribe, or a peasant growing crops through backbreaking labor for his lord.

Quote from: junebug72
It is the conscience that will keep you up at night if you screw your neighbors wife that strongly encourages my belief in God.  The sweet peace that conscience feels when you do something for your fellow man.  This makes me more confident than not that there is a God that Loves us!!!  We are the only species that has a conscience.
The conscience is nothing more than our sense of empathy in action.  I certainly don't think that it's a gift from a god.  By the way, other animals have consciences - it's just that people generally did not spend the time observing animal species (rather than thinking up ways to use them if they seemed benign, or kill them if they seemed threatening) until really recently.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wildlife/5373379/Animals-can-tell-right-from-wrong.html

Wolves, for example, will restrict themselves during play so that the weaker, submissive animals get a turn at being dominant - and if one bites too hard, it will apologize with a specific kind of bow only used while playing.  Coyotes ostracize cubs who bite too hard during play.  Domestic dogs will share treats between themselves.  There's other good examples on that page.

http://www.livescience.com/24802-animals-have-morals-book.html

Higher animals - even birds - show a sense of outrage when their social codes are violated.  There's a notable example of a male bluebird beating a female one which "steps out" (bluebirds are monogamous).  There's examples of other primates showing examples of empathy/conscience, such as refusing to issue shocks to other monkeys even if food was offered; and there's a stunning example of a gorilla rescuing an unconscious three-year old human boy who fell into her cage, protecting him from other gorillas and calling for human help.  There's another example of a dog that was hit and injured on a freeway, and another dog that was with it risked its own life to drag the injured dog to safety.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Does god exist
« Reply #86 on: July 07, 2013, 10:23:36 AM »

I just want to point out to you that it wasn't dummies that created nuclear bombs, poverty or pollution, or maybe they are! Yea a poor dumb kid might murder a couple of people but an intelligent scientist can destroy the world!!!

First, if you think only intelligent people were involved in the decisions and projects to make nuclear weapons, take another look at politicians – as they were very involved. No one "created" poverty itself. And, again, stupid people have been very involved in working to make others poor. Pollution comes from not letting scientists do the complete job of examining chemical processes – or, worse, ignoring what the scientists have told you to do to contain the pollution.

Next, your example of a dumb murderer versus a world-destroying scientist. Admittedly we don't want any world destroying since we only have the one. But we don't have catastrophic laboratory accidents like in the movies. We do have far too frequent murders. There is indeed a correlation between dumb and dangerous just as there is one between intelligent and safe. Note that correlation does not guarantee equivalence – there are dangerous smart people as well as safe stupid people but they are not the majority.

Are politicians not educated men? It is not intelligence they lack.  It is a conscience. 

Poverty is a side effect of capitalism.  It can not exist on it's on so it was created by a bunch of educated men w/o a conscience.  It can be abolished but the educated rich folk would lose too much money/ego. 

The greedy politician wouldn't have a nuclear warhead, were not for the scientist that created it; both w/o a conscience.

Greed is the road block not stupidity.

My bet is that it wasn't the dumbness that made the dumb guy violent but rather the atmosphere in which he grew up.  Show me a story of 1 dumb guy that was brought up in a loving family that murders.  That's why it's so important to be good loving parents.  So you don't raise a criminal.  The intelligent greedy guy creates the poverty that leads to low self esteems which leads to unwanted pregnancies, murder and hopelessness.  So I remain to believe that it is the intelligent person w/o a conscience that is the most dangerous of all. 

It is the conscience that will keep you up at night if you screw your neighbors wife that strongly encourages my belief in God.  The sweet peace that conscience feels when you do something for your fellow man.  This makes me more confident than not that there is a God that Loves us!!!  We are the only species that has a conscience.

Much of what you said is evidenced in a documentary I watched yesterday.  It's called "The House I live in".  It's on Netflix if anyone has that.  It's a very good, non-religious, eye opening documentary about much of the cause of poverty in America -- the war on drugs.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10