Author Topic: Atheist being denied US Citizenship because her morals are not from god  (Read 1839 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12682
  • Darwins +709/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
http://dividedundergod.com/2013/06/14/woman-being-denied-citizenship-because-her-morality-doesnt-come-from-religion/

Quote
Margaret Doughty, a 64-year old woman from the UK who has spent the past 30+ years in the U.S., is in the process of applying for United States Citizenship and happens to be an atheist.
...
Despite being an atheist, Ms. Doughty was told that any conscientious objection must be based on religious grounds, not simply moral objections. So as someone who was not religious, and didn’t believe in a god, she had no basis for objecting.
...
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 11208
  • Darwins +294/-37
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Not surprising, given the ratio of intelligent people to religious zealots in the USA. She should move to Portugal. While we're one of the most religious countries in the world, we don't discriminate against atheists, AFAIK.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken/Lucifer/All In One/Orion.

Online jaimehlers

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5245
  • Darwins +599/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
In point of fact, she's being denied citizenship because she isn't willing to take up arms (military service), rather than because she is atheistic.

I agree with the actual point of the article, which is that conscientious objection shouldn't be tied to religious affiliation.  So it's important to not make this seem like she's simply being denied citizenship because she's an atheist.

Offline Nick

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10573
  • Darwins +192/-8
  • Gender: Male
She is 64.  Can't she just hit them with her cane?

What kind of denial is that?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6215
  • Darwins +411/-5
  • Gender: Male
So it's important to not make this seem like she's simply being denied citizenship because she's an atheist.

But she is.  If she was a Christian making the exact same consciencious objection, she would not be denied citizenship.  Two people, raising the same objection, are being treated differently because of the beliefs that led them to that same objection.  That's discrimination on the belief, NOT the objection.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline natlegend

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1673
  • Darwins +70/-0
  • Polyatheist
She is 64.  Can't she just hit them with her cane?

"Hey you kids, get offa mah lawn!!"
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Online jaimehlers

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 5245
  • Darwins +599/-19
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
But she is.  If she was a Christian making the exact same consciencious objection, she would not be denied citizenship.  Two people, raising the same objection, are being treated differently because of the beliefs that led them to that same objection.  That's discrimination on the belief, NOT the objection.
Oh?  So you can't see any other reasoning for this than that she's being discriminated against?  I can.  For one thing, it's probably set up to ensure that people don't just arbitrarily declare that they're objectors to skate out of the military service requirement.  They have to get people to attest to it - which doesn't mean I agree that the religious requirement is constitutional.  Indeed, it'll probably get thrown out.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1265
  • Darwins +132/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • I'm Your Nurse, Not Your Waitress...
In point of fact, she's being denied citizenship because she isn't willing to take up arms (military service), rather than because she is atheistic.

I agree with the actual point of the article, which is that conscientious objection shouldn't be tied to religious affiliation.  So it's important to not make this seem like she's simply being denied citizenship because she's an atheist.

The article also went on to point out that the SCOTUS ruled in favor of another person who was a conscientious objector/not religious who was against joining the armed forces.

"A 1971 United States Supreme Court decision, Gillette v. United States, broadened U.S. rules beyond religious belief but denied the inclusion of objections to specific wars as grounds for conscientious objection.[46]
Currently, the U.S. Selective Service System states, "Beliefs which qualify a registrant for conscientious objector status may be religious in nature, but don't have to be. Beliefs may be moral or ethical; however, a man's reasons for not wanting to participate in a war must not be based on politics, expediency, or self-interest. In general, the man's lifestyle prior to making his claim must reflect his current claims."[47] Current Selective Service law requires and allows only registration. It does not allow for making claims of CO. The SS has stopped returning the registrants cards that hand write it on but they are simply registered in the system without note. In the US, this applies to primary claims, that is, those filed on initial SSS registration. On the other hand, those who apply after either having registered without filing, and/or having attempted or effected a deferral, are specifically required to demonstrate a discrete and documented change in belief, including a precipitant, that converted a non-CO to a CO. The male reference is due to the current "male only" basis for conscription in the United States.
In the United States, there are two main criteria for classification as a conscientious objector. First, the objector must be opposed to war in any form, Gillette v. United States, 401 U.S. 437. Second, the objection must be sincere, Witmer v. United States, 348 U.S. 375. That he must show that this opposition is based upon religious training and belief was no longer a criterion after cases broadened it to include non-religious moral belief, United States v. Seeger, 380 U.S. 163 andWelsh v. United States, 398 U.S. 333. COs willing to perform non-combatant military functions are classed 1-A-O by the U.S.; those unwilling to serve at all are 1-O."  from Wikipedis


Why is that a question anyway since our armed forces are all volunteer?

Plus - this person would not qualify to register for selective service because she is a woman and even if we started requiring women to register she is too old.  This whole thing is just asinine.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6215
  • Darwins +411/-5
  • Gender: Male
But she is.  If she was a Christian making the exact same consciencious objection, she would not be denied citizenship.  Two people, raising the same objection, are being treated differently because of the beliefs that led them to that same objection.  That's discrimination on the belief, NOT the objection.
Oh?  So you can't see any other reasoning for this than that she's being discriminated against?  I can.  For one thing, it's probably set up to ensure that people don't just arbitrarily declare that they're objectors to skate out of the military service requirement.  They have to get people to attest to it - which doesn't mean I agree that the religious requirement is constitutional.  Indeed, it'll probably get thrown out.

In the article I saw they said "get your church to sign this" - who would an atheist take that paper to?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Fiji

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1355
  • Darwins +97/-2
  • Gender: Male
She is 64.  Can't she just hit them with her cane?

"Hey you kids, get offa mah lawn!!"

Oy, careful, don't piss off British grannies ... they're not what they might seem ... http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Gran
Science: I'll believe it when I see it
Faith: I'll see it when I believe it

Schrodinger's thunderdome! One cat enters and one MIGHT leave!

Without life, god has no meaning.

Offline Razel

  • Freshman
  • *
  • Posts: 39
  • Darwins +2/-0
  • WWGHA Member
Quote
Why is that a question anyway since our armed forces are all volunteer?

In the case of a draft.

Offline Nick

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 10573
  • Darwins +192/-8
  • Gender: Male
But she is.  If she was a Christian making the exact same consciencious objection, she would not be denied citizenship.  Two people, raising the same objection, are being treated differently because of the beliefs that led them to that same objection.  That's discrimination on the belief, NOT the objection.
Oh?  So you can't see any other reasoning for this than that she's being discriminated against?  I can.  For one thing, it's probably set up to ensure that people don't just arbitrarily declare that they're objectors to skate out of the military service requirement.  They have to get people to attest to it - which doesn't mean I agree that the religious requirement is constitutional.  Indeed, it'll probably get thrown out.

In the article I saw they said "get your church to sign this" - who would an atheist take that paper to?
For 20 bucks you can become an ordained minister in the church of the FSM.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12682
  • Darwins +709/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
In point of fact, she's being denied citizenship because she isn't willing to take up arms (military service), rather than because she is atheistic.

I don't think that is correct.  They allow conscientious objector to become citizens.  But the basis for their objection must be religious. So it is not about not taking up arms.  It is about having a legitimate basis (in their eyes) for not doing so.

From the article I linked in the OP:
Quote
Despite being an atheist, Ms. Doughty was told that any conscientious objection must be based on religious grounds, not simply moral objections. So as someone who was not religious, and didn’t believe in a god, she had no basis for objecting.
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline neopagan

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1161
  • Darwins +86/-3
  • Gender: Male
What would a 64 year old granny be defending the fair US from, assuming in this parallel universe of legalese she would be drafted?  Unscrupulous Avon salesladies?  Burnt gingerbread cookies?  Grandpas wearing bermuda shorts with white tennis shoes and black socks?


If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Jag

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1907
  • Darwins +198/-7
  • Gender: Female
  • Official WWGHA Harpy, Ex-rosary squad
For 20 bucks you can become an ordained minister in the church of the FSM.

For no money at all you can become an ordained minister of the Church of Universal Life. Takes about 20 minutes, beginning to end. Now that Mn has allowed gay marriage, I have the power to gay marry anyone who asks me to, granted by the internet and the State of Minnesota. Hetero marriages too of course, but they have plenty of options already.

The most satisfying aspect - I can privately make fun of organized religion while simultaneously doing a Very Good Deed using the tools it culturally provides.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12682
  • Darwins +709/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
http://dividedundergod.com/2013/06/20/margaret-doughty-awarded-citizenship/

Quote
Today, she received an email from the congressional office with the following message from the USCIS included:

“This Service hereby withdraws the request for evidence (RFE) issued on June 7, 2013.  This Service accepts your detailed statement in satisfaction of the information requested by the RFE.  Your application for naturalization has been approved.”

yay!
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Online Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 13035
  • Darwins +354/-85
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
I read that yesterday. But it does seem to put in perspective that the idea of a litmus test is alive and well for any immigrants wanting to come here.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline Traveler

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2056
  • Darwins +142/-2
  • Gender: Female
  • no god required
    • I am a Forum Guide
    • Gryffin Designs
Glad it worked out for her.

For what its worth, I think that christianity alone will not get you into conscientious objector status. Being a quaker will, though. A friend chose to raise her sons as quakers in part because she wanted them to have that protection if they wanted it.
If we ever travel thousands of light years to a planet inhabited by intelligent life, let's just make patterns in their crops and leave.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2947
  • Darwins +180/-73
  • Gender: Male
I didn't know American citizens were subject to being drafted still. Undeer what circumstances might you be drafted?
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline rev45

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1216
  • Darwins +37/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • Did your parents raise you to be an idiot?
^I've done some glancing on google but haven't really found what circumstances might lead to a draft other than "the military needs more soldiers." 
http://people.howstuffworks.com/us-draft2.htm
Here read a book.  It's free.
http://www.literatureproject.com/

Could a being create the fifty billion galaxies, each with two hundred billion stars, then rejoice in the smell of burning goat flesh?   Ron Patterson

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2947
  • Darwins +180/-73
  • Gender: Male
Thanks. How's your band doing, btw? And do you still have a rural mail delivery route?
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline neopagan

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1161
  • Darwins +86/-3
  • Gender: Male
I didn't know American citizens were subject to being drafted still. Undeer what circumstances might you be drafted?

It seems to be more of a national role call list, as opposed to anything practical happening anytime soon.

Maybe if beer drinking Aussies invaded, we'd call up the troops?  Otherwise, I'm betting on zombie apocalypse
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3956
  • Darwins +265/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
I didn't know American citizens were subject to being drafted still. Undeer what circumstances might you be drafted?
Congress approving of a Draft. You are required to sign up for "selective service" which is the roll which a draft would be drawn from
An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Hatter23

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 3956
  • Darwins +265/-8
  • Gender: Male
  • Doesn't believe in one more god than you
In point of fact, she's being denied citizenship because she isn't willing to take up arms (military service), rather than because she is atheistic.

I don't think that is correct.  They allow conscientious objector to become citizens.  But the basis for their objection must be religious. So it is not about not taking up arms.  It is about having a legitimate basis (in their eyes) for not doing so.

From the article I linked in the OP:
Quote
Despite being an atheist, Ms. Doughty was told that any conscientious objection must be based on religious grounds, not simply moral objections. So as someone who was not religious, and didn’t believe in a god, she had no basis for objecting.


but in essence that is correct from strict conditional reasoning

(1)A wishes to be B

(2)if Y is Yes AND X is Yes A is denied B

(3)Therefore X is a conditional(in the presence of Y)

(4)X being a conditional is illegal.





An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2947
  • Darwins +180/-73
  • Gender: Male
I didn't know American citizens were subject to being drafted still. Undeer what circumstances might you be drafted?
Congress approving of a Draft. You are required to sign up for "selective service" which is the roll which a draft would be drawn from

Thanks Hatter
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline natlegend

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1673
  • Darwins +70/-0
  • Polyatheist
Maybe if beer drinking Aussies invaded, we'd call up the troops?

Whaaaaaat? Dude, Australia is like your toddling baby brother, we'll follow you around and keep seeking attention. You wouldn't beat up your little brother now, would you? C'mon, play fair, Australia wouldn't stand a chance!
You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2947
  • Darwins +180/-73
  • Gender: Male
Maybe if beer drinking Aussies invaded, we'd call up the troops?

Whaaaaaat? Dude, Australia is like your toddling baby brother, we'll follow you around and keep seeking attention. You wouldn't beat up your little brother now, would you? C'mon, play fair, Australia wouldn't stand a chance!

Australians just couldn't be bothered. Invade another country? Get stuffed, the footy's on TV.
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline neopagan

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1161
  • Darwins +86/-3
  • Gender: Male
Whaaaaaat? Dude, Australia is like your toddling baby brother, we'll follow you around and keep seeking attention. You wouldn't beat up your little brother now, would you? C'mon, play fair, Australia wouldn't stand a chance!

We love Aussies here!  As a matter of fact, I'm glad you guys invented the "blooming onion"   :o

(And yes, I'll be shocked if you have even heard of that down under)
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2947
  • Darwins +180/-73
  • Gender: Male
Correct, had never heard of a blooming onion. Just had to google it. Seems I might have to tavel to the USA in order to familiarise myself with Aussie cuisine.
Go on up you baldhead.