Author Topic: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?  (Read 15693 times)

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #319 on: August 21, 2013, 08:02:22 AM »
Adam had some offspring. They did things that imply genius.  You don't have to believe
believe that Adam was real.  Adam, the character we read about, had brilliant offspring.
And he could write;

Nothing so far supports your claim.

Thanks to technology, IQ is falling rapidly. Person to person communication is what
builds I.Q.

An out of context and unattributed graph is useless.

In the future, please include a link or reference to your source.  You claim to be a science guy, so references should not be a problem.

Believe him true or not, the character described as Adam was the father of brilliance. 
But only if you believe that children were taught by their parents in those days.
If you think they went away to trade schools to learn how to craft musical instruments
and forge metal, then Dad could have been stupid.  But you also must consider how
advanced the entire clan was to be able to spend time to make musical instruments.

This is just repeating your initial claims.  Still unsupported.

Now you'd like some non-biblical support for ancient wise guys:

This shows ancient civilizations had some skill at civil engineering, though nothing like we have now.  That progression does not fit a model where the world began with a super genius and then degenerated.  You would anticipate engineering getting worse, not better.  Instead, it fits a model of the world that is not based on a literal interpretation of genesis.  It fits an evolutionary model.

And it does nothing to support your claim about the alleged genius of Adam. 

You fail.  This post was a waste of time - yours and mine.  It shows absolutely minimal effort and maximal laziness on your part.  You know this is true.  I'm pretty sure jesus H would want you to do better.  Hang your head in shame.
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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #320 on: August 21, 2013, 08:49:19 AM »
Nobody here is trying to claim that ancient humans were not intelligent people, SkyWriting.

However, that doesn't mean that your prototypical 'Adam' was, well, anything.  Indeed, it is far, far more likely that 'Adam' was a propagandist myth rather than a real person.  In order to present him as a 'real' person, you have to present him as being a superman, far superior to us 'normal' humans, and that human IQ has been declining ever since this supposed 'fall' (because nothing can be better than the first human who ever lived - as if we were some product churned out by mass production).

Let's take this IQ graph you presented, which projects a considerable loss over time (from an average of 92 in 1950 to a projected average of 84 in 2100).  Seems pretty significant - but not in the way you think it is.  The reason average IQ is dropping is not because of technology, but because less intelligent people are more likely to reproduce.

http://www.upi.com/Health_News/2013/05/23/Last-century-Western-nations-lost-an-average-14-IQ-points/UPI-77081369362633/?spt=hs&or=hn

In short, if high-intelligence people tend not to reproduce as much as low-intelligence people, then naturally, the proportion of low-intelligence people will increase and the average IQ will drop.

Indirectly, this is due to increased education opportunities.  Since education increases IQ[1], countries with a standardized system of education tend to have more intelligent people (especially if those countries also have a longer period of mandatory education).  So countries which do not have such a system (which would include most third-world nations) are going to have noticeably less intelligent people in them.  And it is in those countries where the population is increasing the most quickly.

Since those countries are pushing worldwide population growth, that means that their populations will have a lower IQ on average, and thus the worldwide average IQ will drop.

And there you have it.  A far more believable explanation for the reduction in average IQ than some mythical genius proto-superman who could do anything (yet, strangely enough, did nothing but farm and have children).

By the way, the statements in Genesis you cited about people who were the 'ancestors' of those who did various things (you listed those who play stringed and wind instruments, and blacksmiths and those who work with metal), are more of that same propaganda.  It's pretty obvious that the Hebrews, like many other cultures of that time period, wanted to believe that they were the greatest civilization ever to live, and thus made up history to suit what they wanted to believe, rather than what was actually true.  So naturally they would claim to have among their number the fathers of various disciplines (like music and metalworking, and others I would imagine).

You can choose to trust the propaganda of the Bible if you want.  As for me, I'll stick to what we can actually discover about the past, rather than relying on a clearly biased source.
 1. http://www.voanews.com/content/study-more-education-increases-iq-score-136593433/169492.html

Offline screwtape

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #321 on: August 21, 2013, 11:29:56 AM »
Let's take this IQ graph you presented, which projects a considerable loss over time (from an average of 92 in 1950 to a projected average of 84 in 2100).  Seems pretty significant - but not in the way you think it is. 

It's not even that.  As Graybeard pointed out, IQ is measured by rating on the curve.  It can only tell a person's ranking relative to other people.  By definition 100 is the median.[1][2]   By definition it cannot drop.  It is always 100.  So even if a population got stupider over time, you cannot tell by comparing IQ scores. 


 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_classification
 2.  Sometimes the median is not the mean, but in a normal distribution, it is.  And since IQ in a population fits a normal distribution, it is.
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Offline Hatter23

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #322 on: August 21, 2013, 12:23:13 PM »
Let's take this IQ graph you presented, which projects a considerable loss over time (from an average of 92 in 1950 to a projected average of 84 in 2100).  Seems pretty significant - but not in the way you think it is. 

It's not even that.  As Graybeard pointed out, IQ is measured by rating on the curve.  It can only tell a person's ranking relative to other people.  By definition 100 is the median.[1][2]   By definition it cannot drop.  It is always 100.  So even if a population got stupider over time, you cannot tell by comparing IQ scores.
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IQ_classification
 2.  Sometimes the median is not the mean, but in a normal distribution, it is.  And since IQ in a population fits a normal distribution, it is.

I saw that chart and was confused at first. IQ average not 100? How?

Furthermore as trendy as it seems to be to say intelligence is dropping, whoever says that doesn't quite get what intelligence means.

after all look at this test:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/08/12/1912-eighth-grade-exam_n_3744163.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

And all the bemoaning of how modern people will fail. The test itself has spelling errors. Also some questions have contextural aspects where language, educational terms, and society have moved on. For instance "degrees of comparison of adjectives" or memorizing what the dimentions of a cord of wood would be.

I don't ascribe to the "next generation being idiots" theory. I was born in 1969, I have no idea how to milk a cow, or build a radio, or properly plant wheat; but I can can spot an accounting error, or photoshop out a flaw from a picture, or tell the difference between real turquiose and  technologicaly advanced fake stuff. The generation before me probably couldn't shoe a horse, make an outhouse, or forge a nail. And even the generation before them, how many do you think could kill a deer with a bow and arrow?

The skill set needed for any give time just shifts. It isn't skills that are faltering, nor intelligence...it is motivation. The self esteem movement has allowed people to think they are accomplished without them having to try, then they are dumped into a world where the median income, accounting for inflation, keeps going down, seemingly regardless of effort.

An Omnipowerful God needed to sacrifice himself to himself (but only for a long weekend) in order to avert his own wrath against his own creations who he made in a manner knowing that they weren't going to live up to his standards.

And you should feel guilty for this. Give me money.

Offline Emily

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #323 on: August 21, 2013, 01:27:39 PM »
People have been making musical instruments for thousands of years, long before Adam supposedly existed if you believe what the young earthers say.

Taken from my book, The Development of Western Music, Third Edition

archaeologists have found instruments made of mammoth bones dating back to 18,000 BCE in Ukraine, and Mesopotamia (which is where the fictitious Garden of Eden was planted) may be called the cradle of Western Music Theory, and tablets found dating back to the third and second millenia BCE have been found to contain instructions for tuning a lyra (or harp as it is known now), a catalog of songs, music, and performance instructions.

What does that really mean? Well, music has been a part of cultures since at least 18,000 BCE; and two,  "Adam and Eve's" supposed "sons", even if they did make musical instruments according to the bible, did nothing out of the ordinary.

And those "ancient wise guys" building all the great sculptures like the pyramids, hanging gardens, whatever, is very, very primitive to today's standards and technology. Sure, it's amazing that a civilization was able to put off something like those cultures like those "ancient wonders", but civilization as we know it today, with all the tools and machinery, civilization today would take, lets say a month to what the ancient civilizations took 5 years to build.

And sure, I will give those "wise guys" credit for not having the machinery (or, as you say, some brilliant dude found out how to make those ancient wonders without machinery we have today), tools, steel, knowledge of hydraulics, explosives, riveting tools, arc welding equipment, chain saws, drills, etc. Our equipment today, in the year 2013, is so much more advanced.  If they were so wise, and Adam was so brilliant, and his offspring were so amazing, why have we progressed so much further with what we have now compared to what they had back then?

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Online Nam

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #324 on: August 21, 2013, 06:59:13 PM »
Adam, who could not read, write or invent anything, was the most intelligent human who ever lived?

Yes, he wrote down all that happened, and had the best intellect of any human.
His offspring built musical instruments by hand and built cities.

Genesis 4

21 His brother’s name was Jubal; he was the father of all those who play the lyre and pipe.22 As for Zillah, she also gave birth to Tubal-cain, the forger of all implements of bronze and iron; and the sister of Tubal-cain was Naamah.

So says a collection of books whose only source is itself.

No bias there.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.