Author Topic: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?  (Read 15840 times)

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Offline William

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #261 on: July 20, 2013, 10:47:52 PM »
I can only speak for myself. I can't base my entire belief system off a variation of argument from popularity.
I can sort of respect that from an individual believer, doing their best to be honest about what they can and can't accept or reconcile.

But I can't respect a God who operates like that.
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Online Azdgari

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #262 on: July 21, 2013, 12:10:17 AM »
I can only speak for myself. I can't base my entire belief system off a variation of argument from popularity.

Would it not then have been more accurate, instead of saying:

Per Christianity, imperfect beings are made perfect through Christ.

...to have said:

Per myself, imperfect beings are made perfect through Christ.

After all, you're only speaking for yourself.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #263 on: July 21, 2013, 03:04:50 AM »
You're not being a very good advert for your god if you can't give a decent answer.

*Yawn*
 End of conversation.

Post approved to demonstrate how Sky will take any opportunity not to answer the questions posed.

A cute and quippy assumption by a moderator.   This is how I often respond
to such comments as I quoted; by not reading the next line and ignoring
all the posters comments going forward.  Most forums do have an ignore
author feature, and moderators usually recommenced it's use.   Rather
than promote freedom of expression, this forum attempts to discourage people
from not answering.  It's the sickest twist on free expression I've ever seen.

Great!  So you ARE going to answer the questions I asked?  Or dodge them once again?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Mooby

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #264 on: July 21, 2013, 12:17:33 PM »
I can only speak for myself. I can't base my entire belief system off a variation of argument from popularity.

Would it not then have been more accurate, instead of saying:

Per Christianity, imperfect beings are made perfect through Christ.

...to have said:

Per myself, imperfect beings are made perfect through Christ.

After all, you're only speaking for yourself.
No, it would not be more accurate, because the latter implies that I am the original source for that theology.  Speaking for myself does not mean I am unable to provide information from outside sources; it means that I am not claiming to represent the views of every Christian in every denomination in history.

You missed the more important of the two statements: "I can't base my entire belief system off a variation of argument from popularity."  It's absurd to think that I would not take any position on the Bible or Christianity without first checking whether Suzette from Mississippi agrees. 

It's also absurd to respond to a long post containing several points by referring to a nebulous group of "many Christians" who allegedly would disagree with my post yet are conveniently not around to share their views, discuss our areas of contention, or otherwise allow me to defend my points.  "Many people somewhere in the word may disagree with you" is not an argument; it's an incredibly weakened form of the argument from popularity.

So yes, I only speak for myself, and my positions only stand for themselves.  If you (or nogodsforme or anyone else) would like to discuss them, great.  However, speculating what another Christian somewhere someplace somehow in some time may or may not say will not refute them.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #265 on: July 21, 2013, 12:21:45 PM »
moobs, why dont you start in the thread titled "the bible is a disgrace to god"?
you can tell that theist and us why the bible is not a disgrace

Online nogodsforme

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #266 on: July 21, 2013, 01:22:03 PM »
Problem is, Mooby, there are a lot of Christians who would disagree with you, point by point. Who is right? And how exactly can anyone tell, if there is not a clearly visible  difference (ie better health, stronger families, whatever) in the lives of those Christians who say one thing and those who say the opposite? :-\
I can only speak for myself. I can't base my entire belief system off a variation of argument from popularity.

I agree that you can't base your beliefs on what other people think. It has to make sense to you. So, how do you know you are right? What evidence do you have that other Christians (let alone people with different religious views) are missing? Why do your views make more sense than those of the JW's, the Mormons, the Scientologists, the Hindus or the Muslims?

Again, there is not a real difference in the lives of people with different religious views from the unbelievers in the same society. In Japan and Denmark, Buddhists, Christians and atheists alike benefit from the good educations, health care and low crime rates. In Afghanistan and Haiti, everyone is waaaay worse off, no matter what they do or don't believe.

Or is it all about gaining the (unproven) afterlife?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Mooby

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #267 on: July 21, 2013, 05:55:12 PM »
So, how do you know you are right?
I don't.

Quote
What evidence do you have that other Christians (let alone people with different religious views) are missing?
Again, I can't defend my views against a nebulous "Other people exist and they may disagree with you on things."  Unless we're going to talk specific theological points, I can't answer much further.  Unless you want me to start answering with something equally nebulous, such as, "I'm right because of nonspecific reasons existing somewhere in the space-time continuum."

Quote
Why do your views make more sense than those of the JW's, the Mormons, the Scientologists, the Hindus or the Muslims?
Several views prevalent in those groups make plenty of sense to me.  Again, you're asking me to defend against some nebulous implied argument from hypothetical people.  None of the groups you mentioned believe in one thing, and I don't know any of them well enough to have a comprehensive list of beliefs I could compare to mine.[1]

So let's go with, "In all the places where those groups' members' views are different than mine, mine make more sense because the others are more nonsensical by comparison for reasons that exist somewhere in the space-time continuum, except in cases where their views actually make more sense than mine for reasons that exist somewhere in the space-time continuum, in which case they actually make more sense on those issues but not enough sense to overcome all the other areas where my views make more sense per the ongoing tally that exists somewhere in the multiverse; thus, my overall package is the most correct."

Quote
Again, there is not a real difference in the lives of people with different religious views from the unbelievers in the same society.
I wouldn't expect there to be.

Quote
Or is it all about gaining the (unproven) afterlife?
No, it is not.  At least, not for me.
 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyw7yYNvI5o
« Last Edit: July 21, 2013, 05:56:45 PM by Mooby »
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Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #268 on: July 22, 2013, 05:45:26 AM »
Per Christianity, imperfect beings are made perfect through Christ.
Physically though, this body will not do.  Sin results in death.

Jesus says be humble, don't see much of that.
Humble before God is what matters. Humility before other humans is good to practice because we are all equal (in trouble) before the Father.

[
Quote from: junebug72
Well I think Jesus was quite clear that a rich man won't enter into heaven and how many rich evangelists are there?

"Rich man" was referring to those who covet wealth over a relationship with God. 

Quote
Let's look at it on a micro scale, if I have a knife pointed at my neighbor's throat but say, "I love you brother" doesn't that sound a little bit like lying?

You could say "I love you brother, but because of what you did, you need to go to jail."

 
Quote
In the passages he cites, Jesus doesn't just say love your neighbor. He says love your enemy, and "do good to those who persecute you".

We do that.  The US rebuilds countries after that damage we cause them in war.
The US is the only country in the history of the world that does not take land
and plunder wealth when we win a war. 

And our jail conditions are pretty nice.

The rich young man was called out. He thought he could simply “be Christian” without further ado.

He needed to put God first.   
That doesn't mean giving up all your money.
Just being willing to if God asks. 
 

Offline screwtape

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #269 on: July 22, 2013, 09:12:14 AM »
Either way, none of what you said addressed the underlying point I made, which was sin was already present and not Adam's, Eve's nor any other human's doing.

I agree that God allowed Sin.   It's part of the way things are.

No, darling, that's not the argument nor what you said earlier.  Let me refresh your memory:

God created the earth, according to Genesis, then Adam brought on the problems of Satan
and Sin when he choose to leave God's Grace.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man,
...God did not create the ego problem.  Man did.

So, you claimed it was all the fault of A&E.  I showed it was not.  Not even a little. Prior to them there was the serpent, who was obviously engaging in sinful activity. 

Prior to that, there was yhwh who allowed the serpent into the garden and obviously wanted or planned for man to sin. 

Prior to that there was satan who rebelled against god. 

Man did not bring sin into the world.  It was already present and allowed by yhwh, whom xians all say cannot stand sin.  But if the omnipotent creator of all being cannot even keep sin out of heaven, or rid the universe of sin after trying like, three times, maybe we need to consider that one of our beliefs is wrong?  yhwh must either not be omnipotent or he actually wants there to be sin.  There are no other options.


If God only wanted mindless angels that had no free thoughts,

If the Eden story is accurate, that is exactly what he wanted.  yhwh did not want people to have moral judgment.  He wanted blindly obedient animals.  Yet he couldn't make that happen.

He gave those beings the option of staying "attached" or separating from Him.

Sure.  Just like Tony Soprano gives people the option of paying him for protection.  When given two choices and one of them is pain, suffering or death, we usually call that "extortion".

...lots of things you would not expect if man had evolved naturally in his natural environment.

?eh?  Do tell.  Why would this not be a product of evolution?



edit - quote links restored after staff accidentally modified the post.  If the links are incorrect, please let me know. 
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 09:50:22 AM by screwtape »
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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #270 on: July 22, 2013, 10:30:35 AM »
But if the omnipotent creator of all being cannot even keep sin out of heaven, or rid the universe of sin after trying like, three times, maybe we need to consider that one of our beliefs is wrong?  yhwh must either not be omnipotent or he actually wants there to be sin.  There are no other options.

Except for the option of this gods' non-existence.

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Offline William

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #271 on: July 22, 2013, 10:42:36 AM »
Humble before God is what matters. Humility before other humans is good to practice because we are all equal (in trouble) before the Father.

Blind moles ... why didn't God shove souls into blind moles?  They would've obliged abundantly:

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Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #272 on: July 22, 2013, 12:45:20 PM »
Blind moles ... why didn't God shove souls into blind moles?  They would've obliged abundantly:

He did, and we don't oblige abundantly.    What evidence do you have to show
that blind moles act any different because of what you perceive as blindness?

I've known blind people with good vision.  They can trace out math slopes in
the air the same as sighted folks.   One guy rides a bicycle with no added technology.
Do you have data showing that blind people are more spiritual?  Or that moles are?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 01:09:27 PM by SkyWriting »

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #273 on: July 22, 2013, 01:07:35 PM »
Man did not bring sin into the world.

We are both correct.  Sin originated before the earth was created.
But Adam brought sin into our world after it was created.
We could blame Eve for listening to the voice of Satan.
This is where the ladies derive benefit from God's Male-Centric
system.  Adam takes the hit:

 
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,
and in this way death came to all people...

http://biblez.com/search.php?q=sin+world

So if the ladies make changes to the male-ness of the text then we would make this change:  Eve is responsible for Sin.



« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 01:28:09 PM by SkyWriting »

Offline median

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #274 on: July 22, 2013, 09:09:39 PM »
You're not being a very good advert for your god if you can't give a decent answer.

*Yawn*
 End of conversation.

Post approved to demonstrate how Sky will take any opportunity not to answer the questions posed.

A cute and quippy assumption by a moderator.   This is how I often respond
to such comments as I quoted; by not reading the next line and ignoring
all the posters comments going forward.  Most forums do have an ignore
author feature, and moderators usually recommenced it's use.   Rather
than promote freedom of expression, this forum attempts to discourage people
from not answering.  It's the sickest twist on free expression I've ever seen.

A bad excuse for coming here, being unable to answer questions directly (rational discourse), and then refusing to engage by making use of copouts.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #275 on: July 22, 2013, 09:14:03 PM »

No clergy or bible or teaching is required.
 
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse

I suggest you check anything that clergy says or does. They are sinners as well.

How about critically checking into the source of those clergy - i.e. that collection of ancient books you assumed was the absolute truth? Why not practice just as much skepticism with that book as you do with those clergy (or numerous other things in life)? Is it too much to ask for you to be consistent in your reasoning?
« Last Edit: July 22, 2013, 09:20:26 PM by median »
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #276 on: July 23, 2013, 02:45:08 AM »
Man did not bring sin into the world.

We are both correct.  Sin originated before the earth was created.
But Adam brought sin into our world after it was created.
We could blame Eve for listening to the voice of Satan.
This is where the ladies derive benefit from God's Male-Centric
system.  Adam takes the hit:

 
Romans 5:12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin,
and in this way death came to all people...

http://biblez.com/search.php?q=sin+world

So if the ladies make changes to the male-ness of the text then we would make this change:  Eve is responsible for Sin.

You really don't read your bible, do you? 

"And the LORD God said unto the woman, What is this that thou hast done? And the woman said, The serpent beguiled me, and I did eat......Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee"

Yeah.  No blame attached to Eve there at all, you're right.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline screwtape

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #277 on: July 23, 2013, 08:20:47 AM »
We are both correct.

Nope.  One of us is correct.  Me.

You are wrong.  Are you familiar with the concept of Fractal Wrongness?

But Adam brought sin into our world after it was created.

Nope.  The serpent - whether a snake, a minion of the devil, or the Enemy himself - was a sinner and was already in the world.  Unless the serpent somehow zoomed in under yhwh's radar, or existed outside yhwh's power, or smuggled in by Adam - all of which would require an explanation as it is not scriptural - it was placed there by yhwh.  However you slice it, it was neither Eve nor her slow witted mate.

We could blame Eve for listening to the voice of Satan.

I think you need to be more clear about your position regarding the serpent and satan.  On the one hand you said satan =/= serpent.  You said the snake was influenced by satan.  Now you're saying it was his voice.  Come on, man.  Why do I have to drag the information out of you?  If you are here to discuss, discuss.  Don't give us your position in tiny bits an pieces and make people guess.  Give us a fully formed idea.

And to think, I almost apologized for accusing you of "hamfistedly" linking satan and the serpent.  This is even more hamfisted than I thought.

Romans 5:12

Yes, well, Paul - or whomever actually wrote that line in Romans - is obviously wrong on that account, innit?

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Online wheels5894

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #278 on: July 23, 2013, 08:35:57 AM »
I think this may be flogging a dead horse here, Screwtape! However....

Skywriting,

Please show us

  • How the Genesis passage shows us that Adam knew what he was eating was from the forbidden tree. This needs to be by quoting the text not saying there is a implication somewhere or that Paul knew something we don't
  • Show us In the Genesis passage how we might link the Accuser with the snake. You are welcome to see other uses of 'ha nahash' in the Hebrew texts to find a meaning or even to look it up in a standard lexicon. If you fail, then Paul also fails as he hasn't any better chance of linking the two.

When you reply we can take the discussion further
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline William

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #279 on: July 23, 2013, 10:07:57 AM »
What evidence do you have to show that blind moles act any different because of what you perceive as blindness?
Funny how the minute I crack a joke (albeit sarcastic) you go all literal on me  &)
And well you may wonder why atheists won't take you seriously - when you are unable to discern the crevasse between fiction and reality.

Do you have data showing that blind people are more spiritual?  Or that moles are?
I'll start looking right after you give a scientifically usable definition of the concept of "spiritual". 
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Offline median

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #280 on: July 23, 2013, 11:32:18 AM »

I think you need to be more clear about your position regarding the serpent and satan.  On the one hand you said satan =/= serpent.  You said the snake was influenced by satan.  Now you're saying it was his voice.  Come on, man.  Why do I have to drag the information out of you?  If you are here to discuss, discuss.  Don't give us your position in tiny bits an pieces and make people guess.  Give us a fully formed idea.

What he is practicing here is a very common Christian Apologetics tactic - avoid putting out any clear concise theological statements of belief (stay vague regarding a particular subject) so as to avoid refutation. I used to use this scheme all the time. When you don't tell the whole story of what you believe (because maybe you don't know what you believe exactly, or you know it sounds asinine and that it won't be accepted) it saves you from being shown to be in error and allows you time to call up your other apologetics buddies to ask how they would answer it (i.e. - how they would rationalize/SPIN it to make it sound OK so you can keep believing).

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #281 on: July 23, 2013, 03:16:11 PM »

I think you need to be more clear about your position regarding the serpent and satan.  On the one hand you said satan =/= serpent.  You said the snake was influenced by satan.  Now you're saying it was his voice.  Come on, man.  Why do I have to drag the information out of you?  If you are here to discuss, discuss.  Don't give us your position in tiny bits an pieces and make people guess.  Give us a fully formed idea.

What he is practicing here is a very common Christian Apologetics tactic - avoid putting out any clear concise theological statements of belief (stay vague regarding a particular subject) so as to avoid refutation. I used to use this scheme all the time. When you don't tell the whole story of what you believe (because maybe you don't know what you believe exactly, or you know it sounds asinine and that it won't be accepted) it saves you from being shown to be in error and allows you time to call up your other apologetics buddies to ask how they would answer it (i.e. - how they would rationalize/SPIN it to make it sound OK so you can keep believing).

Many people wear different masks depending on who they are with.  Particularly pronounced when in your teens, when the face you wear to your friends is dramatically different to the face you wear to your parents.  You are something totally different to different people.  It tends to get less pronounced as you get older, but still you are likely to be one person with your college buddies, another person at work, another person at the golf club. 

The problem, of course, comes when you are with two groups at once.  The teen trying to stay cool in front of his mates when his parents are around.  The stress of a party when the workmates who know "dependable Joe" meet the college buddies who know "Joe the Freak", and the brain ache you have when you try not to alienate either group.

Sky, I think, is having a similar problem.  He has one way of looking at things in one situation, and another way in another situation.  The problem he is having is that we - naughty us! - keep trying to bring the two situations together, and showing him how his two answers do not fit together.  I suspect that is another reason why he dodges - the fear of finding out that his many answers only appear to be a complete whole so long as you only look at one facet at a time.  Try to see the whole picture, and the illusion crumbles.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #282 on: July 24, 2013, 09:57:54 AM »
What evidence do you have to show that blind moles act any different because of what you perceive as blindness?
Funny how the minute I crack a joke (albeit sarcastic) you go all literal on me  &)
And well you may wonder why atheists won't take you seriously - when you are unable to discern the crevasse between fiction and reality.

All of reality is in your mind.  Nothing else exists except your perception of reality.

Do you have data showing that blind people are more spiritual?  Or that moles are?
I'll start looking right after you give a scientifically usable definition of the concept of "spiritual".

Here are 172 peer reviewed papers:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=spiritual%5BTitle%5D

Here's a couple titles:
MENTAL DISEASES IN MODERN TIMES – A SPIRITUAL OUTLOOK
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3336517/

Self evolution: 1st domain of spiritual health
To measure the spiritual health, the 4th Dimension, a Spiritual Health Scale consisting of
3 Domains,
6 Constructs, and
27 Determinants
of spiritual health were identified through a scientific process.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3611654/

I don't mind doing your homework for you on occasion. 
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Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #283 on: July 24, 2013, 10:07:30 AM »
Nope.  The serpent - whether a snake, a minion of the devil, or the Enemy himself - was a sinner and was already in the world.

The Garden (east of Eden) was not in our world.  If so, we would find
it with a couple of cherubs floating near the gates keeping us out. Plus it has some unusual trees and a talking serpent wandering around.  Oh, and God walks there.

22Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”—23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken.24So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

Unless you have pictures....the Garden was not our world.

Online Azdgari

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #284 on: August 01, 2013, 03:23:21 PM »
Then where was it?  Either way, the Serpent was a sinner.  Sin predates humans, per the Bible.
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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #285 on: August 01, 2013, 06:46:56 PM »
Unless you have pictures, the Garden of Eden was not on earth, huh? I agree, as long as by "pictures" you mean real evidence that does not rely on spiritual feelings, prior belief or faith.

If you don't have convincing evidence: god, heaven, hell, angels, devils,  Adam, Eve, Abraham, Noah's Ark, Moses, exodus of Jews, the virgin birth, water into wine, crucifixion, etc did not exist, either.

SkyWriting, if you are wondering what we mean by evidence: whatever you would need to believe that Islam or Hinduism or Rastafarianism or Mormonism or Scientology was true, that is what we would need to believe in your religion.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline William

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #286 on: August 02, 2013, 12:34:23 AM »
All of reality is in your mind.  Nothing else exists except your perception of reality.


So, let's apply that to daily life shall we.  If what you are saying is true, nothing ever happened or exists beyond my mind.  It materialises during my process of perceiving it.  It pops into existence as I read about it, or see it, or think about it  :o  I could create new species of orchid just going out to look for them in the forest.
Before I was born my mother didn't exist. When I die my family will cease to be real.
If I pick up a fossil, the creature that left it never walked the earth, until I perceived the fossil in the dirt, indeed I poofed the fossil and the dirt into existence  :o
The tsunami in Japan didn't happen until I saw it on TV.

If I put any of that to my doctor next time I go for a check-up, do you think she'll agree?  ;D  Or will she refer me to a psychiatrist for an assessment? :?

SkyWriting, you are out of touch with reality.


Here are 172 peer reviewed papers:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=spiritual%5BTitle%5D

First paper deals with "religion" and "religiosity" without providing a concrete definition of "spiritual".  The authors point out that it may be positive or negative for people to bullshit themselves with their own religion.  See here:
Quote
They propose that many patients use religion both as a coping resource and as an explanatory model for their disorder 1. This can have positive consequences (e.g., “I think my illness is God's punishment for my sins. It gives meaning to what happened to me, so it is less unjust”) or negative ones (e.g., “I have been praying for years. I am still ill because I don't believe in God's healing power enough. I am a bad person”) 2

FAIL!

Second paper deals with the problems of trying to pin down the concept of "spiritual"  ;D ;D ;D
FAIL!

Third paper, right up front, makes the point that their definition can't be relied on:
Quote
It is only partially related to spirituality and religiosity.
FAIL!

Fourth paper deals not with a scientific definition of spirituality but talking (i.e. giving lip service) to patients about whatever bullshit ideas they themselves happen to have about it:
Quote
Patients’ spiritual needs were identified as: need to talk about spiritual concerns, showing sensitivity to patients’ emotions, responding to religious needs; and relatives’ spiritual needs included: supporting them with end of life decisions, supporting them when feeling being lost and unbalanced, encouraging exploration of meaning of life, and providing space, time and privacy to talk.
FAIL!

Fifth paper again fails to define spiritual - it only panders to whatever desires patients and families happen to express:
Quote
Veterans and their families expressed a range of spiritual needs ..
No testable concept of "spiritual" there.
FAIL!

Sixth paper doesn't deal with spirituality, but rather "“spiritual dryness”  :police: ;D ;D ;D ;D  That's actually people being honest that they have no spirituality  :laugh:
FAIL!

Seventh paper is about two indirect indicators, namely "peace" and "life worthwhile".
Quote
The APCA African POS items peace and life worthwhile capture distinct but related constructs which indicate the extent of a patient’s spiritual well-being in palliative care populations in sub-Saharan Africa.
FAIL!

That's seven FAILS in a row.  I refuse to go on. Skywriting, please, I am not your research assistant.
Read your references before you post.


Here's a couple titles:
MENTAL DISEASES IN MODERN TIMES – A SPIRITUAL OUTLOOK
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3336517/

Self evolution: 1st domain of spiritual health
To measure the spiritual health, the 4th Dimension, a Spiritual Health Scale consisting of
3 Domains,
6 Constructs, and
27 Determinants
of spiritual health were identified through a scientific process.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3611654/

Firstly, alarm bells :police: "Self evolution" is a contradiction in terms. They are not free to hijack a well understood scientific term like "evolution" for a pseudo-science purpose.  At worst it is a DISHONEST attempt at passing off, at best it's just UNPROFESSIONAL.
Then they go on with this nonsense (look past the obvious typos):
Quote
The evolution in all spheres of life has reached almost at its zenith and now the research studies are focusing to find out as to how the life evolved on the planet and if there is any super power governing the planet, earth.
So here we have people who think "evolution" has peaked  :o
Now they have burdened themselves with a serious credibility problem.
I go on to read their paper.  Instead of a definition of "spiritual", something that I could test or work with in some degree of certainty with a minimum of assumptions, it does nothing but expand the murkiness:
Quote
A statistically reliable and valid Spiritual Health Scale (SHS 2011) containing 114 items ....
So instead of getting clarity we now have 114 items ... every one of which means something else in it's own right (and some of which are rubbish)  &)

One good lesson from this one though - it's an excellent demonstration that weird stuff can and does get published in obscure journals  :police:  Getting into print doesn't necessarily mean that it has actually passed rigorous peer review in the external scientific community.

But returning to my question about a scientifically usable concept of spiritual. The above paper deals with a sloppy hodgepodge of "spiritual health" - an elaborate confusing substitution of what I asked for.  See here is the definition (taken from their key reference) of what they are pretending to do "science" with:
Quote
Spiritual health is a: State of being where an individual is able to deal with day-to-day life in a manner which leads to the realization of one's full potential; meaning and purpose of life; and happiness from within.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3263147/

Many atheists can do everything required by that definition while rejecting the notion of "spiritual".  But they'd be marked down on the SHS 2011 scale because they don't "pray" and would never report "considering oneself as a part of the supreme (beyond self)."

More FAIL!


I don't mind doing your homework for you on occasion. 
- Sky
Sadly this homework is a FAIL.  Your standards for credulity are clearly not as high as mine.
« Last Edit: August 02, 2013, 01:45:46 AM by William »
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Offline median

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #287 on: August 02, 2013, 02:12:17 AM »

Here are 172 peer reviewed papers:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/?term=spiritual%5BTitle%5D

Here's a couple titles:
MENTAL DISEASES IN MODERN TIMES – A SPIRITUAL OUTLOOK
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3336517/

Self evolution: 1st domain of spiritual health
To measure the spiritual health, the 4th Dimension, a Spiritual Health Scale consisting of
3 Domains,
6 Constructs, and
27 Determinants
of spiritual health were identified through a scientific process.
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3611654/

I don't mind doing your homework for you on occasion. 
- Sky

From the article: "The authors have conducted a research study to define and measure the spiritual health of an individual and have named it as Spiritual Health Scale (SHS 2011)."

Ha! So the authors came to the table with a presupposition (that there is a non-physical aspect to our being), arbitrarily named it what they wanted to, and then acted as if they were doing a "measure" by use of, "Determinants like Commitment, Introspection, Honesty, Creativity, Contemplation, Prayer, Philanthropy, Extending Self, Empathy, Yoga and Exercise, Questioning Injustice, Aesthetics, Value for Time, and Being Away From Comparisons."

Wow Sky, you really are gullible. I have some swampland in Arizona to sell you. It's a great deal! Interested?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #288 on: August 02, 2013, 02:20:36 AM »

Unless you have pictures....the Garden was not our world.

Unless you have pictures...

Jesus did not rise from the dead
There was no virgin Mary
No serpent talked
There was no Adam and Eve
No one turned water into wine
5 Loaves and 2 fish did not feed 5000
Sticks did not turn into snakes
A donkey did not talk

And there are no places called heaven or hell

That thing called logic is a doozy isn't it!
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #289 on: August 02, 2013, 07:24:35 AM »
The Garden (east of Eden) was not in our world. 

Don't get me wrong - I agree.  Genesis is fiction and Eden is an idealized paradise imagined by Bronze Age story tellers.  But if we are going with a literalist interpretation of those stories - which is the point of view we have been discussing from - your claim here is completely wrong and nonbiblical.

Gen 2, when it talks about the garden in the East Eden, follows right after the creation of everything else and man.  Because of that, it appears that the writers intended to say it was on the earth that was just created.  It even mentions actual rivers in Iraq.  There is no indication otherwise.  It definitely does not say, "and then yhwh created a completely separate place that was not connected to the flat earth he just built..."  There would be no point in building the earth and then building a second, unconnected place and drop the man in there. 

"Hmm.  Lemme see.  I'll build an earth.  And do nothing with it.  It's just "there".  Oh, I know.  I'll make a guy out of the dirt from it.  Okay.  Now, over here, Imma build Eden.  And I'll drop the guy into it.  yeah.  That's good.  I'll just keep earth as a backup."

And let's not forget to mention that gen1 makes no mention of Eden at all.  All the plants, animal and people - there is no elaborate story about Eve being made from a rib - are all in the same place: on earth.


If so, we would find it with a couple of cherubs floating near the gates keeping us out. Plus it has some unusual trees and a talking serpent wandering around.  Oh, and God walks there.

yep.  And since we do not find any of that, anywhere I would say that is a strong indicator that it is not real and never was.  Or do you think perhaps the Gingerbread Man, Puss in Boots and  Jack's beanstalk were all real, just not on our world?

Quote
Unless you have pictures....the Garden was not our world.

Unless I have pictures.  That's hilarious.  You crack me up.  Of course I don't have pictures.  I don't think Eden is real and I'm not trying to argue it was.  I'm arguing literary criticism here.  Within the context of the story we are discussing, I've successfully argued that sin was not brought into the world by Eve and her slow witted mate, as you have claimed.  I have successfully argued it was already present in the form of the serpent, however the serpent is interpreted.  Every post from you since then has been a big, fat red herring.   Ask yourself why that is. 

But do I get to use that argument too? Let me try it. 
Unless you have pictures, there was no exodus. 
Unless you have pictures, Isaac was slaughterd by Abe
Unless you have pictures, Mary got knocked up by Joe and fabricated the whole virgin thing.
Unless you have pictures, jesus was never crucified. 

Wow.  Works like a charm.  (I saw median's post after I wrote this.  Good work median. You did a better job than I.)

You know, there is no harm in getting rid of a belief that is demonstrably wrong.  There is no shame in thanking me for teaching you something new or seeing a different perspective.

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