Author Topic: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?  (Read 13521 times)

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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #232 on: July 16, 2013, 11:28:11 PM »

In the story of Abraham sacrificing his son, we cannot know for sure, if the original text spared his son. Therefore, it's impossible to interpret this text in one useful way, because it looks like it has been faked over.

Can you provide further information on this? How do the earliest existing manuscript appear faked?
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Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #233 on: July 16, 2013, 11:55:45 PM »

In the story of Abraham sacrificing his son, we cannot know for sure, if the original text spared his son. Therefore, it's impossible to interpret this text in one useful way, because it looks like it has been faked over.

Can you provide further information on this? How do the earliest existing manuscript appear faked?

This has been done to death. The early religion shows sign of diverging into two cultures: one who called their god Elohim, and the others called their god Yahweh, who was recognised as a god under El. The Yahwists edited their text, so that Isaac was not sacrificed, so consequently, it's Elohim/"God" who tells Abe to kill his son, but Yahweh/"LORD" who tells him not to. Gen 22:11

The two divergent texts were then edited back together, scantly hiding the way God and LORD popped in and out of the text. The final edit preferred the story that Isaac was not killed.

Gen 2-3 prefers LORD God, but by Gen 4, LORD is doing the talking.

[1] In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.  By Gen 2, LORD God, is in the text. By Gen 6, God and LORD alternates, nearly every line. In Gen 6:19, God tells Noah to put 2 of every animal on the ark. By Gen 7:2, LORD tells him to put 7 pairs in.

Then by 7:9, it's back to 2 again, and God.
There went in two and two unto Noah into the ark, the male and the female, as God had commanded Noah.

This is the basis of the conventional academic work, which has decided that the text is stitched from 3-4 sources, known as Priestly, Elohist, Yahwist, Deuternomist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elohist
« Last Edit: July 17, 2013, 12:03:54 AM by Add Homonym »
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Offline magicmiles

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #234 on: July 17, 2013, 12:12:25 AM »
Thanks. I find this interesting, and hope to do some more in depth reading up on it.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #235 on: July 17, 2013, 03:16:05 AM »
Some more selective quoting there to avoid a direct answer to the question.  You're not being a very good advert for your god if you can't give a decent answer.  I've pasted back in the actual questions so its clear where the dodges are.

What ever you object to, I'm sure I can find legal examples on your block or in your house.

THAT was your question. 

My boss is not allowed to beat me.

He can verbally abuse you and berate you. Bully you.  That can cause you harm for life. Wounds will easily heal.  From the view of your best interest, the scriptures should read "do not consider your self higher than others."    Oh.  It does.

Where is the legal example of my boss being allowed to beat me, Sky?

I am not allowed to beat my staff.

You are not allowed to even think of yourself as higher than others.  Covered in scripture.

Where is the legal example of being allowed to beat me staff, Sky?  Why were you not able to give me the legal examples of the things that I object to about the slavery in the Bible?  You know, the kind of slavery where there are all those rules about how much you can beat your slave?

So I hope we have broken it down and decided that the Bible does not clearly prohibit "slavery", but it does cover the various aspects of slavery and condemns those aspects that we abhor.

Are you kidding me?  Do you actually READ your Bible?

Exodus 21:20-21 - And if a man smite his servant, or his maid, with a rod, and he die under his hand; he shall be surely punished. Notwithstanding, if he continue a day or two, he shall not be punished: for he is his money.

Yahweh's words, direct to Moses, saying that it is quite acceptable to beat someone that they "own".  Which brings me back to my original question that you are doing your absolute best not to answer:

The slavery in the Bible was a part of culture they had to deal with.....

Where did that culture come from, Sky?  Given that everyone was a descendant of Adam and Noah, and that Yahweh was fully prepared to issue commandments about all kinds of trivia, how did that culture originate?  Specifically, within the culture of the followers of Yahweh (for who the rules on slavery were written).

What prevented Yahweh from making one of his commandments "thou shalt not keep slaves", as opposed to the (rather pointless) "have no other gods but me" - especially if there ARE no other gods.  Heck, he tells people not to wear poly-cotton blends.....but NOT to not keep slaves.

That is the very specific question that you are dancing away from.  Why did Yahweh allow a culture of slavery among his chosen people, if he did not approve of it, given the multiple commands he made about comparatively trivial issues?

Going to answer them, Sky?  Or are you going to dodge yet again?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #236 on: July 17, 2013, 07:45:22 AM »
You're not being a very good advert for your god if you can't give a decent answer.

*Yawn*
 End of conversation.

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #237 on: July 17, 2013, 11:34:35 AM »
The problem is that God is not capable of "being in the same room" with anything less than perfection.   Physically we would just be destroyed to be in His presence.  It's not a judgment, its like a "law of nature."   So there things a person needs to do before communication can begin.  Read about "faith" to know what you are expected to do first.
If he was that overwhelming, he would have obliterated the entirety of creation the second he made it.  Because it was not perfect, according to the Bible.  It was good.  There is a notable difference between the two.

And even if that were true, it would certainly be possible for him to manifest himself in "low-power mode", such as Moses's burning bush.  The fact that nothing like that happens anymore - indeed, if it ever happened in the first place - is pretty damning, if you'll excuse the term.

Offline William

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #238 on: July 17, 2013, 12:17:35 PM »
The problem is that God is not capable of "being in the same room" with anything less than perfection.   Physically we would just be destroyed to be in His presence. 
My bold.

SkyWriting, you are trashing the little respect I have left for your ideas with this inconsistent fairy tale nonsense.

Adam and Eve, after the snake and apple incident, were supposedly in God's presence before he ushered them out of the garden.
God was seen and even Himself said He appeared to people in the OT. Unless it was smoke and mirrors He must have been in their presence:
Quote
Exodus 6  2 And God spake unto Moses, and said unto him, I am the Lord:
3 And I appeared unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, by the name of God Almighty, but by my name Jehovah was I not known to them.
Quote
Exodus 24  9 Then went up Moses, and Aaron, Nadab, and Abihu, and seventy of the elders of Israel:
10 And they saw the God of Israel: and there was under his feet as it were a paved work of a sapphire stone, and as it were the body of heaven in his clearness.
11 And upon the nobles of the children of Israel he laid not his hand: also they saw God, and did eat and drink.

But this whole notion of us not being able to be in Gods presence that is found in parts of the Bible is nothing but a sinister shaman trick  :police:  The reason they don't want people to think God should be seen is simply because God doesn't exist.  If people are too scared to think about or want to be in God's presence then they are less inclined to worry about the fact that God is invisible, absent, leaves no evidence, and has no basis in fact.

It's just more dishonesty the meme acquired to protect itself in times when people were less educated and not able to read for themselves.  Nowadays it's re-orchestrated daily by the clergy who benefit from the flock being a little spooked and staying tight in the bunch for safety - where they are easier to parasite off.


It's not a judgment, its like a "law of nature."   So there things a person needs to do before communication can begin.  Read about "faith" to know what you are expected to do first.
More pure make-believe - and once more contradicted by the Bible &)

You know very well that doubting Thomas was given extra direct evidence to convince him.

You know very well that Jesus put on an extraordinary display to Saul to win him over:
Quote
Acts 9 1 Then Saul, still breathing threats and murder against the disciples of the Lord, went to the high priest  2 and asked letters from him to the synagogues of Damascus, so that if he found any who were of the Way, whether men or women, he might bring them bound to Jerusalem. 3 As he journeyed he came near Damascus, and suddenly a light shone around him from heaven.  4 Then he fell to the ground, and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting Me?”
5 And he said, “Who are You, Lord?”
Then the Lord said, “I am Jesus, whom you are persecuting.[a] It is hard for you to kick against the goads.”
6 So he, trembling and astonished, said, “Lord, what do You want me to do?”
Then the Lord said to him, “Arise and go into the city, and you will be told what you must do.”

So the necessary precedents are all there - people who were independent thinkers were given special one-on-one information tailored to their needs for faith. They had done nothing to deserve these unique life-changing insights served up by Jesus in person no less.  Why should we all have to put up with dishonest preachers who can't agree with each other, inaccurate translations, and signs that fade under scrutiny. 

In contrast to Thomas and Saul, I certainly did all prescribed reading, with all sincerity. I wanted faith. I wanted to conform. I did the praying, I cried real tears begging for faith, and asked others for help, etc.  Absolutely nothing happened to bolster my faith.  But my reading of the Bible gradually began to disturb me, first enough to find and devour all the bits of the Bible never read out in church. And then a full reading from start to finish. The beautifully bound King James Bible my devout Catholic mother gave to me is precisely what undid the last remnants of my faith.  I was shocked and disgusted by what I read.  Almost everything I questioned turned out to be another pinprick to the bubble of my rapidly deflating delusion.

SkyWriting, on the topics of BibleGod & Jesus I'm starting to repeat myself when engaging you, which is really boring, and not helping anyone, so I'll stop now.  I'll carry on with some of science topics - which I think are more fruitful.
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #239 on: July 17, 2013, 02:45:47 PM »

The problem is that God is not capable of "being in the same room" with anything less than perfection.   Physically we would just be destroyed to be in His presence.  It's not a judgement, its like a "law of nature."   So there things a person needs to do before communication can begin.  Read about "faith" to know what you are expected to do first.

OK, I can't leave this one alone. Come on, Skywriting, what nonsense are you talking?

Give us a bible quote for the concept that 'god can't be in the same room as anything less than perfection' for starters. Jesus, believed by mainstream Christians as part of the Trinity, was certainly in the rooms of people who were sinners. This starts to look like an uphill task for you. Of course, it might just end up that a non-existent being can't be in any room, which is logical, and nothing or '0' being a ring is a sign of perfection so that god, not existing, is actually more perfect that a god that does exist!

Now you know as well as I do that people need something to grasp before they can believe things - any things from the time of the bus, that the car will start in the morning up to and including gods. Now the problem is that for the first few things we can get some evidence of these things - watch for the bus, try the car each day and so on - but we can't do that with a deity since they are, handily, invisible and also never utter a word. how do you get someone to believe in such a thing as that? Naturally, non-speaking gods have their servants, (clergy), to tell the people what they should and should not do. Sometimes the instructions get obeyed and sometimes not and sometimes the instruction even match the relevant holy book's texts too. Yet how does one get a non-believer to accept the teachings when the  only significant person to talk to is a clergy person and he doesn't hear anything from a god who doesn't speak!

No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline screwtape

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #240 on: July 17, 2013, 03:37:42 PM »
The early religion shows sign of diverging into two cultures: one who called their god Elohim, and the others called their god Yahweh, who was recognised as a god under El.

Good post.  I have a little to add.

I think they were already two cultures, not diverging from one.  Israel in the north, who were elohists, and Judah in the south, which was a yhwh cult.  Israel was destroyed and a lot of people from the north moved south.  They needed a way to blend the two similar but distinct people.  It was typical in those days for conquorers to accept the gods of the conquored into their pantheon.  So the Judaeans, though not conquorers, tried to combine their stories.  they tried to make it sound as if they were all one people, long ago.  In fact, they said they had all been slaves in egypt to give them a mythical common tragedy.[1] 

It was simple enough to do since they had similar stories, but different heroes.  This is why in the bible you so often have two similar, but slightly different stories one right after the other.  One is the story brought by the elohists, the other by the yhwh cult.  The hero of one (judah, I think?) was Moses.  The other's was Aaron.  So, they made them brothers.  The Judaeans had more sway, so Mo was the older, more important one.

This was not done all in one fell swoop, but over many years.  Politics shifted and different factions had power at different times.  Sometimes an Aaronite, sometimes not.  So the editors put emphasis on the things they valued and generally tried to smear the things they did not.  Sometimes it was the priestly rituals, other times it was making one group or tribe's hero look good, or bad.  Lot getting drunk and impregnating his daughters is a good example of that.

A good book that covers this is Who Wrote the Bible, by Robert Wright.  I believe you can find a free PDF of it online.  I just got it from my library, but it is probably a good book to own.

There is more evidence to Iaac being sacrificed than just that, though.  For one, the language at the end of the Binding story suggests Abraham went back down the mountain alone.  Genesis 22:19 says :
"Then Abraham returned to his servants, and they set off together for Beersheba. And Abraham stayed in Beersheba." 
All the verbs are singular in the hebrew.  That's because Isaac's ashes remained on top of the mountain.

And you don't hear from Isaac again.  In later stories, Isaac is just a bridge to Jacob, hardly worth mentioning. 

Secondly, child sacrifice was practiced by early hebrews.  That is one reason why the OT talks about redeeming first borns. 

Third, all the polemics against child sacrifice make no sense if nobody was sacrificing children.  They only make sense if it was a problem they were trying to address.

Last, they actually believed child sacrifice worked.  In 2 kings 3, Mescha, the king of Moab sacrificed his firstborn son on the walls of the city and it allowed the moabites to turn back the invading Israelis.  Also recall Jephthah in Judges 11 sacrificing his daughter, Mizpah. 


Ref - Human Sacrifice in Jewish and Christian Tradition; Finsterbusch, Lange, Romheld; 2007
 1.  It worked.  yesterday was Tishah B'Av, a day where jews fast and grieve over their past tragedies, like the destruction of the temple and yhwh delaying their entrance to Israel for 40 years.  Seems silly, but it is effective.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #241 on: July 17, 2013, 03:40:09 PM »
Did I say Satan was in the Garden? 
I can't find that.
If I did, that was my mistake.

Perhaps it was mine.

Either way, none of what you said addressed the underlying point I made, which was sin was already present and not Adam's, Eve's nor any other human's doing.
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #242 on: July 17, 2013, 03:43:17 PM »
Ohhh, so that's why we never get to see or hear or have any contact with god. Finally! He can't be anywhere that's not perfect. He wants the entire universe to be just fabulous before he shows up, kinda like Sharpay in High School Musical. Now, that explains everything.

NOT!

How come so many people tell us that "god is everywhere" then? Huh?

And how come the sinful angels were plotting against god in right there in heaven? Huh? And after Adam and Eve ate the evil fruit, didn't god still show up and hang with them? And Abraham and Moses chatted with god, too. They didn't all spontaneously combust, did they?

Thor give me patience.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #243 on: July 17, 2013, 11:47:25 PM »
And you don't hear from Isaac again.  In later stories, Isaac is just a bridge to Jacob, hardly worth mentioning. 

I had heard that, but when I did that post, I couldn't help noticing that Isaac was in Genesis, about 900 times. At Gen 25:20, it explains when Isaac got married at 40. At Gen 49:31, it says where they buried Isaac and his wife. Wikipedia tells me that he lived to 180. God also seems to associate with Isaac (35:12), even though God had killed Isaac. The story must have become a bit disorganised.

I did notice, up the top 8:20, that LORD tells Noah to sacrifice a one of each clean animal. This would not have been possible with God, since God told him to only take pair of animals.

This is worth reading
http://www.timesofisrael.com/when-abraham-murdered-isaac/

It also says that Isaac is not mentioned in Elohist text, but I don't know how you identify Elohist text, if they keep using the word El and Elohim to mean god, rather than God.

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #244 on: July 17, 2013, 11:49:16 PM »
Ohhh, so that's why we never get to see or hear or have any contact with god. Finally! He can't be anywhere that's not perfect. He wants the entire universe to be just fabulous before he shows up, kinda like Sharpay in High School Musical. Now, that explains everything.

God will appear to animal dung, though, because it is without sin. In fact, anything with no brains is without sin, and can see God.
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Offline William

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #245 on: July 18, 2013, 12:12:00 AM »
I did notice, up the top 8:20, that LORD tells Noah to sacrifice a one of each clean animal. This would not have been possible with God, since God told him to only take pair of animals.

The LORD was addicted to the odours of sacrifice ... the LORD actually planned ahead for this:

Quote
Genesis 7 2 Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens, the male and his female: and of beasts that are not clean by two, the male and his female.


Quote
Genesis 8 20 And Noah builded an altar unto the Lord; and took of every clean beast, and of every clean fowl, and offered burnt offerings on the altar.

21 And the Lord smelled a sweet savour; and the Lord said in his heart, I will not again curse the ground any more for man's sake; for the imagination of man's heart is evil from his youth; neither will I again smite any more every thing living, as I have done.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #246 on: July 18, 2013, 03:53:32 AM »
You're not being a very good advert for your god if you can't give a decent answer.

*Yawn*
 End of conversation.

Post approved to demonstrate how Sky will take any opportunity not to answer the questions posed.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #247 on: July 18, 2013, 04:37:31 AM »
... the LORD actually planned ahead for this:

The LORD planned ahead, but God didn't. God is notorious for his lack of planning skills; creating the sun on day 4, as an afterthought, and telling Abe to kill his son, when he knew that Abe would do it, but LORD would fuck it up.

Also, LORD believed that making humans speak different languages would be an effective mechanism to stop humans developing technology.
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Offline William

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #248 on: July 18, 2013, 04:44:12 AM »
The LORD planned ahead, but God didn't. God is notorious for his lack of planning skills ...

The explanatory power of this is astonishing!  :o  ;)  :laugh:
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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #249 on: July 18, 2013, 05:29:08 AM »
You're not being a very good advert for your god if you can't give a decent answer.

*Yawn*
 End of conversation.

Post approved to demonstrate how Sky will take any opportunity not to answer the questions posed.

I suspect not so much "will take any opportunity not to answer the questions posed" and more of "unable to answer the questions posed". We have asked things that of the  basis of the myth he claims to follow and he doesn't want to step outside and see how it looks to us.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline William

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #250 on: July 18, 2013, 05:54:06 AM »
... more of "unable to answer the questions posed" ....

Here is a pic of the Holy Ghost away on vacation again - nice and relaxing, no stress and just out of telepathic range   :angel:

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Offline wheels5894

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #251 on: July 18, 2013, 06:05:47 AM »
 ;D
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #252 on: July 19, 2013, 04:15:12 AM »
I suspect not so much "will take any opportunity not to answer the questions posed" and more of "unable to answer the questions posed". We have asked things that of the  basis of the myth he claims to follow and he doesn't want to step outside and see how it looks to us.

True.  Perhaps a better phrasing would have been "will take any excuse to avoid revealing that he is unable to answer the questions posed".
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #253 on: July 19, 2013, 04:47:11 AM »
I suspect not so much "will take any opportunity not to answer the questions posed" and more of "unable to answer the questions posed". We have asked things that of the  basis of the myth he claims to follow and he doesn't want to step outside and see how it looks to us.

True.  Perhaps a better phrasing would have been "will take any excuse to avoid revealing that he is unable to answer the questions posed".

Yes! Much better!
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #254 on: July 19, 2013, 12:02:26 PM »
You're not being a very good advert for your god if you can't give a decent answer.

*Yawn*
 End of conversation.

Post approved to demonstrate how Sky will take any opportunity not to answer the questions posed.

A cute and quippy assumption by a moderator.   This is how I often respond
to such comments as I quoted; by not reading the next line and ignoring
all the posters comments going forward.  Most forums do have an ignore
author feature, and moderators usually recommenced it's use.   Rather
than promote freedom of expression, this forum attempts to discourage people
from not answering.  It's the sickest twist on free expression I've ever seen.
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 12:08:34 PM by SkyWriting »

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #255 on: July 19, 2013, 12:32:24 PM »
Did I say Satan was in the Garden? 
I can't find that.
If I did, that was my mistake.

Perhaps it was mine.

Either way, none of what you said addressed the underlying point I made, which was sin was already present and not Adam's, Eve's nor any other human's doing.

I agree that God allowed Sin.   It's part of the way things are.  If God only wanted mindless angels that had no free thoughts, it would be like growing a longer arm with extra hands attached, then expecting to be happy chatting with your arm, shaking hands with yourself, and patting yourself on the back.

Rather than growing long arms and legs for company, God chose to create other beings in his image.  He gave those beings the option of staying "attached" or separating from Him.  Because of the choice, we now live in a different realm.  Because we have freedom, we have Sin.  The two are bound together. 

As you look around you you can see the proof of this.  People are free!  Freedom allows blowing up other people with bombs, blowing themselves up, shooting themselves because of girlfriend troubles, shooting others over girlfriend troubles, a lady driving back and forth over her husband with the car.......lots of things you would not expect if man had evolved naturally in his natural environment.    This world does not seem t be our natural environment.   Either the environment is completely wrong or our attitude is completely wrong. 

And "Religion" is not off the hook.  "Religious people" commit atrocities at the same level as the "secular" world. 
« Last Edit: July 19, 2013, 12:43:26 PM by SkyWriting »

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #256 on: July 19, 2013, 01:54:16 PM »
Give us a bible quote for the concept that 'god can't be in the same room as anything less than perfection' for starters.

Exodus 33
20 But He said, “You cannot see My face, for no man can see Me and live!”

But additional verses tell the story of God in the vicinity of Moses, so I was wrong about "in the same room."


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Yet how does one get a non-believer to accept the teachings when the only significant person to talk to is a clergy person and he doesn't hear anything from a god who doesn't speak!

No clergy or bible or teaching is required.
 
Romans 1:20 For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities--his eternal power and divine nature--have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse

I suggest you check anything that clergy says or does. They are sinners as well.

Offline Mooby

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #257 on: July 20, 2013, 01:30:18 PM »
Mooby,

Why would Biblegod allow imperfect beings into Heaven?

-Nam
Per Christianity, imperfect beings are made perfect through Christ.

Jesus says be humble, don't see much of that.  Jesus frowned on public prayer, he smited the pharisees for it.  Jesus frowned on wearing long robes and making long speeches.  This happens every Sunday and Wednesday.  Jesus don't judge, happens everyday.  I bet Jesus would turn the tables over to see a big yard sale at his father's house.
Jesus spoke out against the pharisees posturing and focusing more on making money than serving God.  While the Christian churches have certainly slipped into this territory several times over the centuries, it's not the robes/rites/public prayers themselves that are evil, but rather whether they are placed before God.

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Well I think Jesus was quite clear that a rich man won't enter into heaven and how many rich evangelists are there?
I addressed several of the verses about that above.  Also, Jesus also talks about the relationship of rich people to the "Kingdom of Heaven," which theologians generally consider an earthly ideal state that would be likely be similar to the ideal communist state - in which the rich would certainly resist.

A military is a necessary requirement according to who?
The nation being attacked by an aggressor, clearly.

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Let's look at it on a micro scale, if I have a knife pointed at my neighbor's throat but say, "I love you brother" doesn't that sound a little bit like lying?
If your neighbor is attacking you, and you grab a knife, point it at him, and say, "I love you brother, but I'll defend myself if necessary," I don't see how that's lying.

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In the passages he cites, Jesus doesn't just say love your neighbor. He says love your enemy, and "do good to those who persecute you". It seems not just a little absurd (and very much like an outright excuse) to say, "Oh, me having this knife to your throat doesn't really matter does it? I still love you!"
If you do that as an act of aggression, then it's certainly not just.  If you're holding the knife in defense against the neighbor's aggression, then it may be just.  A military that's used to bully other nations is not acting justly; a military only used to defend the nation's citizens may be just.

The rich young man was called out. He thought he could simply “be Christian” without further ado. Jesus challenges him to see how much he wanted to be Christian – apparently he did not want it as much as he wanted his money. So he is now roasting on the Devil’s spit, not because he was bad but because his parents were rich and he only knew that life. Perhaps he was rich but that's not a sin, but his love of money was greater than his love of God (If he had been smart, he would have replied, "I have no money of my own, it is all in a trust fund in Assyria set up by my father - I am destitute..."

Why would Jesus say such a thing? Well, his audience were poor, He was empowering them by disempowering the rich boy. – Rhetoric for rabble-rousing.
Correct.  A big part of Jesus' teaching was that material wealth is not the same as spiritual wealth, and that placing earthly wealth at a higher importance than spiritual wealth offers short-term benefit but long-term loss.  However, that's not the same as saying that followers of Jesus cannot have any material goods at all, which is the extreme position Marshall Brain is using for his criticisms.

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Today, He might say, “Don’t have a Billionaire’s mansion and an Escalade, a yacht and a Lear Jet…” and his audience would say “Well, we wouldn’t, would we? It’s those rich bastards, we are better than them – we’ve got a head start, we don’t have to make those choices; they don’t apply to us – we’re headed for the Pearly Gates.”
Yes, that would probably be a good modern reformulation.

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This idea is the poor being OK when they're dead is so if, and only if, (i) there is a God, (ii) it’s the right God, (iii) you’re perfect and (iv) God capriciously thinks you are fitted for heaven… and this takes the shine off it.
No, that's not accurate.  Per my prior post (and the start of this one), being perfect on Earth is not necessary for salvation, because believers are purified through Christ, which in turn fits one for heaven.  So iii is out and iv is moot.  Jesus doesn't say it has to be the right God, and indeed implies the exact opposite (John 4:21-24), so ii is out.  Lastly, Jesus speaks often of the Kingdom of Heaven, which references a hypothetical earthly kingdom that is theoretically achievable even if God doesn't exist, so i is not iff.
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #258 on: July 20, 2013, 02:52:59 PM »
Problem is, Mooby, there are a lot of Christians who would disagree with you, point by point. Who is right? And how exactly can anyone tell, if there is not a clearly visible  difference (ie better health, stronger families, whatever) in the lives of those Christians who say one thing and those who say the opposite? :-\
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline wheels5894

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #259 on: July 20, 2013, 03:01:44 PM »
I think the thing is that the bible is quite like Nostradamus - its quite easy to create one's own meaning from the words without really being wrong. I've heard people argue that a country having an army is fine with Christianity and I've heard people argue that only a pacifist is truly Christian.

For all the points that Mooby has mentioned there are other interpretations that are more favourable to one group rather that another. There's a whole series of churches in the UK and in other countries whose message is that giving to that particular church will result in god making much richer. Proponents argue that this matches what the bible says. I'm sure many Christians would refute it though.

So what we could do with is a list of what is right and what is wrong based on something that is determinate and not something like the biblical texts that are capable of meaning, more of less, what the reader wants to hears.
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #260 on: July 20, 2013, 09:30:19 PM »
Problem is, Mooby, there are a lot of Christians who would disagree with you, point by point. Who is right? And how exactly can anyone tell, if there is not a clearly visible  difference (ie better health, stronger families, whatever) in the lives of those Christians who say one thing and those who say the opposite? :-\
I can only speak for myself. I can't base my entire belief system off a variation of argument from popularity.
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