Author Topic: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?  (Read 15905 times)

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Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #203 on: July 13, 2013, 09:33:35 AM »
Just for a moment lets think about it as if it were all true - a thought experiment.

A person today who rapes and kills a child gets 3 meals a day, a basketball court, and a fitness room, cable TV, and a soft bed.  A time may come when you are not looked on kindly. Perhaps you will be the sentencing judge.


edit - unnecessary quoting removed.  Please only quote the relevant parts of posts to which you are responding.  Thanks.
~Screwtape
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 09:45:45 AM by screwtape »

Online wheels5894

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #204 on: July 13, 2013, 09:52:15 AM »
Just for a moment lets think about it as if it were all true - a thought experiment.

A person today who rapes and kills a child gets 3 meals a day, a basketball court, and a fitness room, cable TV, and a soft bed.  A time may come when you are not looked on kindly. Perhaps you will be the sentencing judge.


edit - unnecessary quoting removed.  Please only quote the relevant parts of posts to which you are responding.  Thanks.
~Screwtape


Is this some defence of god for his disgusting comments mentioned by William from Numbers?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline William

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #205 on: July 13, 2013, 10:11:07 AM »
A person today who rapes and kills a child gets 3 meals a day, a basketball court, and a fitness room, cable TV, and a soft bed.

Which is more appropriate?  For the sake of the rape victim? And those at risk of future rape?
1) Easy repeated access to God's total forgiveness and absolution via Jesus :o
2) Serving lengthy prison time deprived of freedom, with opportunities to rehabilitate, thanks to the wisdom contained in the laws of secular society.

A time may come when you are not looked on kindly.
Lovely how predictable theists are - always resorting to fear-mongering when losing a debate :laugh:

What is my sin? Applying intelligence and integrity to an every-day sensible reading of the Bible?
Git mit uns

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #206 on: July 13, 2013, 10:28:06 AM »
Lovely how predictable theists are - always resorting to fear-mongering when losing a debate :laugh:

What is my sin? Applying intelligence and integrity to an every-day sensible reading of the Bible?

I don't know what fear mongering is or what you have to be afraid of.
I was saying that your choice of sentencing may look asinine in the future.
« Last Edit: July 13, 2013, 10:31:40 AM by SkyWriting »

Offline William

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #207 on: July 13, 2013, 12:12:31 PM »
Continuing …

Like the Chinese workers who make our clothes and 1/3 of everything else?  Or some other slavery. 

So like where in the holy scriptures does God suddenly take a special interest in the wellbeing of the Chinese? God fully insulted the Chinese by completely ignoring them at a time they were far more advanced than His special chosen people.  A Chinese Jesus would have had a more sophisticated audience (untroubled by over-ambitious messiah prophecies), and access to better established written communication culture.

Admit it SkyWriting, your concern for the Chinese arises from modern secular values, not from Biblical/Scriptural morality.

And I'm more than happy to debate the economics of it - maybe in the "Chatter" forum.

In paradise or heaven, you'd be covered.  This is neither place.
That is just pure excusiology. Who is the loving Git who made the cruel Earth and the rules for life on Earth?  None of the issues or the trouble on earth is beyond God (if God is real).  BibleGod is not only responsible but actively looking after us – daily:
Quote
Matthew 6  11 Give us this day our daily bread.
Quote
Matthew 6  31 Therefore take no thought, saying, What shall we eat? or, What shall we drink? or, Wherewithal shall we be clothed? 32(For after all these things do the Gentiles seek:) for your heavenly Father knoweth that ye have need of all these things.

If Satan is really running the Earth, why would God/Jesus mislead us like this in the Bible? With false hope?  This is an abuse of trust.
Wouldn't an honest God just say: "Unfortunately I can't help you in this world - your duty is to die consumed by faith in Me to enter the next world, where I have jurisdiction to fix ANYTHING."


No part of this statement is accurate.
http://biblehub.com/genesis/2.htm
Awesome link!  ;D  Half-way down the first page:
Quote
Genesis 2 18 Then the LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone; I will make him a helper suitable for him.”19 Out of the ground the LORD God formed every beast of the field and every bird of the sky, and brought them to the man to see what he would call them; and whatever the man called a living creature, that was its name. 20 The man gave names to all the cattle, and to the birds of the sky, and to every beast of the field, but for Adam there was not found a helper suitable for him. 21 So the LORD God caused a deep sleep to fall upon the man, and he slept; then He took one of his ribs and closed up the flesh at that place. 22 The LORD God fashioned into a woman the rib which He had taken from the man, and brought her to the man.
So this Git Creator gave first thought and priority to cattle. Cattle before woman. And only when asked by Adam who saw all the animals (male and female) paraded before him.  I wonder what Adam thought his penis was for? .... accurately irrigating plants I guess.  I wonder what God thought Adam's penis was for? .... accurately irrigating plants I guess.   But God already had it all worked out for bulls and cows.

The saddest thing about all this, true or not, is that it has set up several thousand years of mankind with a basis for believing woman were not the original intent of God - just a little afterthought "helper" (plaything) requested man, and the cause of all of man's troubles  &)

The moral of the story is nauseating and infinitely regrettable. Neither God nor Jesus affords women the status they deserve and need to operate as equals in the world. 

Unless it's all just the pathetic mythology of very primitive misogynistic desert people .... ignorant brutes.
 

Even more when I have time  :) 
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Online wheels5894

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #208 on: July 13, 2013, 12:35:36 PM »

The saddest thing about all this, true or not, is that it has set up several thousand years of mankind with a basis for believing woman were not the original intent of God - just a little afterthought "helper" (plaything) requested man, and the cause of all of man's troubles  &)

Even more when I have time  :)

Just a tiny thought, but the helper / plaything doesn't work in Hebrew. the English translation doesn't really get the point over. The word for helper is only ever used of one character in the bible apart from the single use when mentioning Eve. The 'helper' always otherwise refers to god. Now, if we see our wives as helpers in the way god is portrayed as a helper then she is elevated about the level of plaything considerably.

(Second thoughts, maybe it does work if the god didn't know what the man's penis is for....)
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline William

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #209 on: July 13, 2013, 12:43:52 PM »
... the English translation doesn't really get the point over....

Thanks wheels - I always learn something from your posts :)
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Offline median

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #210 on: July 14, 2013, 12:02:19 PM »
Lovely how predictable theists are - always resorting to fear-mongering when losing a debate :laugh:

What is my sin? Applying intelligence and integrity to an every-day sensible reading of the Bible?

I don't know what fear mongering is or what you have to be afraid of.
I was saying that your choice of sentencing may look asinine in the future.

It should be written in here...

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #211 on: July 15, 2013, 02:59:31 AM »
The slavery in the Bible was a part of culture they had to deal with.....

Where did that culture come from, Sky?  Given that everyone was a descendant of Adam and Noah, and that Yahweh was fully prepared to issue commandments about all kinds of trivia, how did that culture originate?  Specifically, within the culture of the followers of Yahweh (for who the rules on slavery were written).

What prevented Yahweh from making one of his commandments "thou shalt not keep slaves", as opposed to the (rather pointless) "have no other gods but me" - especially if there ARE no other gods.  Heck, he tells people not to wear poly-cotton blends.....but NOT to not keep slaves.

That is the very specific question that you are dancing away from.  Why did Yahweh allow a culture of slavery among his chosen people, if he did not approve of it, given the multiple commands he made about comparatively trivial issues?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #212 on: July 15, 2013, 10:53:11 AM »
The slavery in the Bible was a part of culture they had to deal with.....

Where did that culture come from, Sky?  Given that everyone was a descendant of Adam and Noah, and that Yahweh was fully prepared to issue commandments about all kinds of trivia, how did that culture originate?  Specifically, within the culture of the followers of Yahweh (for who the rules on slavery were written).

What prevented Yahweh from making one of his commandments "thou shalt not keep slaves", as opposed to the (rather pointless) "have no other gods but me" - especially if there ARE no other gods.  Heck, he tells people not to wear poly-cotton blends.....but NOT to not keep slaves.

That is the very specific question that you are dancing away from.  Why did Yahweh allow a culture of slavery among his chosen people, if he did not approve of it, given the multiple commands he made about comparatively trivial issues?

The owner of my company uses a number of slaves.  I don't find any scripture
against what he is doing either.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #213 on: July 15, 2013, 11:13:58 AM »
That is just pure excusiology. Who is the loving Git who made the cruel Earth and the rules for life on Earth? 

God created the earth, according to Genesis, then Adam brought on the problems of Satan
and Sin when he choose to leave God's Grace.

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned http://biblehub.com/romans/5-12.htm

The results we see is an amazingly complex and varied world filled with raw materials for accomplishing most anything, even space travel.   Imagine trying to build much of anything given moon materials. 

So it's an amazing and rich environment where everything could live in peace and harmony.
But we don't see that.  Instead we see greed and corruption and murder bases on ego.  What do I mean by "ego"?   I mean I can walk through the slums of my city where blood stains can be found on the sidewalk.   As long as I don't try to hit on some guys girl-friend odds are pretty good I'll be unharmed.  But if I approach the wrong girl, some guy may take my life within the hour.   That's an ego problem.    Or if I talk with disrespect to anyone, that could end my liife as well.   That's ego.    And that's what all of society's problems stem from.  I , me, & my problems. 

Human ego is what rules this earth.  The earth will seem much less cruel if you go to a national park.  The fewer humans, the less ego to worry about.  God did not create the ego problem.  Man did. And it's tough to handle. As I've said, I have to get my ego out of the picture before the lines of communication between Him and me open up. 
« Last Edit: July 15, 2013, 11:18:31 AM by SkyWriting »

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #214 on: July 16, 2013, 03:01:18 AM »
That is the very specific question that you are dancing away from.  Why did Yahweh allow a culture of slavery among his chosen people, if he did not approve of it, given the multiple commands he made about comparatively trivial issues?

I can answer that one. Trivial laws are easy to keep. However, Yahweh could not have told the Jews to stop keeping a slave class, because it would have made them less economically competitive.

All morality is economics. Greed is good, etc.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #215 on: July 16, 2013, 03:03:45 AM »
I don't know what fear mongering is or what you have to be afraid of.
I was saying that your choice of sentencing may look asinine in the future.

Perhaps you could clarify your oblique threat, because in the context of the discussion it made no sense, except as a threat.

You seemed to be at odds with the way a rapist would get gym access, but then warned us about the severity of judgement.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #216 on: July 16, 2013, 03:25:16 AM »
The slavery in the Bible was a part of culture they had to deal with.....

Where did that culture come from, Sky?  Given that everyone was a descendant of Adam and Noah, and that Yahweh was fully prepared to issue commandments about all kinds of trivia, how did that culture originate?  Specifically, within the culture of the followers of Yahweh (for who the rules on slavery were written).

What prevented Yahweh from making one of his commandments "thou shalt not keep slaves", as opposed to the (rather pointless) "have no other gods but me" - especially if there ARE no other gods.  Heck, he tells people not to wear poly-cotton blends.....but NOT to not keep slaves.

That is the very specific question that you are dancing away from.  Why did Yahweh allow a culture of slavery among his chosen people, if he did not approve of it, given the multiple commands he made about comparatively trivial issues?

The owner of my company uses a number of slaves.  I don't find any scripture against what he is doing either.

Your previous point was that slavery was a part of their culture at the time, so I asked why Yahweh let such a culture arise.  It appears you are saying that the lack of negative commentary from Yahweh on slavery means.....what?  That he approves of it?  Or that he regards it as so trivial an issue as to not be worth mentioning?  Can you clarify please, because as things stand I do not see how your response answers my questions.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline William

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #217 on: July 16, 2013, 05:18:21 AM »
God created the earth, according to Genesis, then Adam brought on the problems of Satan
and Sin when he choose to leave God's Grace.
So Almighty God was sent into retreat because of the snake and apple thing.  Not very impressive  :-\

Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned http://biblehub.com/romans/5-12.htm
Not fair! :?  Why will there eventually be a judgement day when each person will face the music on their own merits?  What prevented God from giving each fresh innocent descendent of Adam and Eve a free go at obedience?  Must be a flaw in God's original design of Adam and Eve.

The results we see is an amazingly complex and varied world filled with raw materials for accomplishing most anything, even space travel.   Imagine trying to build much of anything given moon materials. 
Or mankind's toil at science - all knowledge withheld by the big Git in the Sky.


Human ego is what rules this earth.  The earth will seem much less cruel if you go to a national park.  The fewer humans, the less ego to worry about.  God did not create the ego problem.  Man did.

That's just false.
Did Man's ego make penguins aggressive? :


Did Man's ego make elephants aggressive? :


Did Man's ego make kangaroos aggressive? :


Did Man's ego make sea lions aggressive? :


Is this what the snake and apple caused? :



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Online wheels5894

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #218 on: July 16, 2013, 05:32:13 AM »
OK, Skywriting, I am fed up with people who misinterpret the story in Genesis 3. Here's the text -

Quote
Now the serpent was more crafty than any other beast of the field that the Lord God had made.

He said to the woman, “Did God actually say, ‘You1 shall not eat of any tree in the garden’?” 2 And the woman said to the serpent, “We may eat of the fruit of the trees in the garden, 3 but God said, v‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the tree that is in the midst of the garden, neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’” 4 but the serpent said to the woman, “You will not surely die. 5 For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good and evil.” 6 So when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was a delight to the eyes, and that the tree was to be desired to make one wise,2 she took of its fruit and ate, and she also gave some to her husband who was with her, and he ate. 7 z Then the eyes of both were opened, and they knew that they were naked. And they sewed fig leaves together and made themselves loincloths.

Note -
  • The animal mentioned is a snake (Hebrew Nahash). There is no suggestion in the story of any Satan, devil etc. so we have to take it that this is just a very wily snake.
  • The tree whose fruit the couple eat is the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the result is that they understand what is good and evil. It follows that before eating the apple they were unaware of the difference. Consequently, they can hardly be blamed for not following instructions from god as they would not have know it was wrong not to do what they were told.
  • Adam did not sin. Eve had the conversation with the snake and the story does not indicate that she told Adam about the conversation before giving him the fruit to eat. Thus Adam did not, actually disobey anything as he did not know what he was eating. It was Eve who disobeyed.
  • Was the snake right? Well, there is no indication the the creation narratives  that people would not die in the Garden of Eden so there is no reason to interpret the texts as though death only came after the couple left the garden. So, actually, the snake was right and god told a porky.
  • Finally, I can't help laughing when I read the story as the result of getting knowledge of morals is that the couple realise they are naked! How could it matter with just the two of them, presumably haveing 'known' each other already?
No testimony is sufficient to establish a miracle, unless the testimony be of such that its falshood would be more miraculous than the facts it endeavours to establish. (David Hume)

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #219 on: July 16, 2013, 07:45:02 AM »
Finally, I can't help laughing when I read the story as the result of getting knowledge of morals is that the couple realise they are naked! How could it matter with just the two of them, presumably haveing 'known' each other already?

Being naked is bad.  Adam and Eve didn't know that....but Yahweh did.  Yahweh didn't tell them "put some clothes on", even though he knew it was wrong.  Yahweh was the first person to "sin" in the garden, viewing A&E in their nakedness.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #220 on: July 16, 2013, 08:17:28 AM »
OK, Skywriting, I am fed up with people who misinterpret the story in Genesis 3. Here's the text -

So you end up feeding yourself a line? The secret to good interpretation is to allow other writers to make sense of the text for you. A good number of Jesus followers lost their lives defending what they believed to be true. You've spent say 15 minutes on the text and would likely deny you've read it if I offered you a Klondike Bar.
 
Quote
The animal mentioned is a snake (Hebrew Nahash).
 
Usually translated "Serpent".
Usually pictured something like this:

Quote
There is no suggestion in the story of any Satan, devil etc. so we have to take it that this is just a very wily snake


Who talks.  This is a clue your not in Kansas, as we know it.


  • Quote
    The tree whose fruit the couple eat is the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil and the result is that they understand what is good and evil.

    The result of acting against what God has told them both not to do.  Had they stayed in cooperation with God and done what He had asked, they would still be immortal.   Evil is to act outside of God's good word.  They both did.


    Quote
    It follows that before eating the apple they were unaware of the difference. Consequently, they can hardly be blamed for not following instructions from god as they would not have know it was wrong not to do what they were told.


    There is no apple.  The fruit of the tree is the result of Sin.  The Fruit is Death.

    Quote
    Adam did not sin. Eve had the conversation with the snake and the story does not indicate that she told Adam about the conversation before giving him the fruit to eat. Thus Adam did not, actually disobey anything as he did not know what he was eating. It was Eve who disobeyed.

    God commanded them both to not eat of the tree in the center of the Garden. Eve brought that up in her conversation with the Serpent.   The Serpent twisted God's words, Eve fell for it, then nagged Adam into Sin as well.  They were is a utopia where they walked side by side with God and Serpents talked.   Perhaps all animals were conversant in the garden.

    Quote
    Was the snake right? Well, there is no indication the the creation narratives that people would not die in the Garden of Eden so there is no reason to interpret the texts as though death only came after the couple left the garden. So, actually, the snake was right and god told a porky.


    Here is where we defer to those who gave their lives in defense of their religion.  That doesn't prove they were right.  But I suggest they put more thought into what they said that forum posters usually do: 

    Romans 5:12  Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinnedhttp://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Romans+5%3A12&version=NIV
     
    Quote
    Finally, I can't help laughing when I read the story as the result of getting knowledge of morals is that the couple realize they are naked! How could it matter with just the two of them, presumably having 'known' each other already?
       

    I would presume no such thing.  They were totally innocent and naked.  They thought only of the other person and had no concept of self or "ego".   They existed as equals with God.

    Suddenly, they no longer were connected with God.  They disobeyed Him.  Have you ever had a good relationship going.....everything was super smooth and easy....then you said something really stupid.    Suddenly you are no longer  in-Sync.   Suddenly you are aware that your not shaved or in poor clothes or are in poor physical condition.    Before, you were oblivious.  Suddenly you are aware of your nakedness and want to cover up.

    It happens with me and my wife all the time.  Maybe you don't know the feeling.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 08:22:14 AM by SkyWriting »

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #221 on: July 16, 2013, 08:26:59 AM »
Finally, I can't help laughing when I read the story as the result of getting knowledge of morals is that the couple realise they are naked! How could it matter with just the two of them, presumably haveing 'known' each other already?

Being naked is bad.  Adam and Eve didn't know that....but Yahweh did.  Yahweh didn't tell them "put some clothes on", even though he knew it was wrong.  Yahweh was the first person to "sin" in the garden, viewing A&E in their nakedness.

God is pointing out that they have created their own set of guidelines as a result of Sin. 
He is showing them they have created their own god, the god "self".  Or you may know the god  "selfishness" better. Easier to see in other people.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #222 on: July 16, 2013, 08:32:54 AM »
That's just false.
Did Man's ego make penguins aggressive?

Yes. 
Our entire reality was effected as a result of Man deciding to go his own way.

We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time. Romans 8:22

12 Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man, and death through sin, and in this way death came to all people, because all sinned...Romans 5:12






Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #223 on: July 16, 2013, 08:41:35 AM »
The slavery in the Bible was a part of culture they had to deal with.....

Where did that culture come from, Sky?  Given that everyone was a descendant of Adam and Noah, and that Yahweh was fully prepared to issue commandments about all kinds of trivia, how did that culture originate?  Specifically, within the culture of the followers of Yahweh (for who the rules on slavery were written).

What prevented Yahweh from making one of his commandments "thou shalt not keep slaves", as opposed to the (rather pointless) "have no other gods but me" - especially if there ARE no other gods.  Heck, he tells people not to wear poly-cotton blends.....but NOT to not keep slaves.

That is the very specific question that you are dancing away from.  Why did Yahweh allow a culture of slavery among his chosen people, if he did not approve of it, given the multiple commands he made about comparatively trivial issues?

The owner of my company uses a number of slaves.  I don't find any scripture against what he is doing either.

Your previous point was that slavery was a part of their culture at the time, so I asked why Yahweh let such a culture arise.  It appears you are saying that the lack of negative commentary from Yahweh on slavery means.....what?  That he approves of it?  Or that he regards it as so trivial an issue as to not be worth mentioning?  Can you clarify please, because as things stand I do not see how your response answers my questions.

Your definition of "Slavery" is a unique combination of "features" that you alone have defined.
The scriptures do not address your version of slavery.  They do address the "features" of your version of slavery.  If you list exactly what "features" of your definition of slavery you are averse to we can address if scriptures cover them or not.  Work for low pay, work for no money, boss won't let you eat while working, boss tells you where you must sleep, you can't leave in the middle of the day, no cell phone use, no food at your desk, what ever.

What ever you object to, I'm sure I can find legal examples on your block or in your house.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #224 on: July 16, 2013, 09:04:03 AM »
Therefore, just as sin entered the world through one man,

That would be a wrong analysis.  Sin was already in the world: the serpent.  Or, if you want to call it Satan - which frankly is kind of silly, but whatever - then still, that sin predated Adam.  You xians like to think of Eden as perfect, but obviously it wasn't.  The serpent's/ Satan's sin was present.  And who allowed it there?  yhwh. not Eve or her slow witted mate.


As I've said, I have to get my ego out of the picture

I'd say you failed horribly at that.  You come off as quite arrogant here, which is naught but ego.


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Offline screwtape

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #225 on: July 16, 2013, 09:49:17 AM »
The animal mentioned is a snake (Hebrew Nahash).

Also note, when it first appeared in genesis it either had legs or wings or used some other method of locomotion. (coil up like a spring and hop around?)  Because it was not until after Eve ate the forbidden fruit that it was cursed to "crawl" on the ground.

There is no suggestion in the story of any Satan, devil etc. so we have to take it that this is just a very wily snake.

In fact, genesis itself supports the idea that it was simply a serpent.  The story tries to explain, in its own primitive, mytho-poetic way, why snakes crawl on the ground and "eat dirt".  It makes no sense if this is The Devil.  Or are we to gather that the leader of the fallen angels, with whom yhwh later casually has conversations and wagers in the Job story, crawls on its belly and eats dirt? 

Also consider judaism, even to this day, does not have a devil or hell.  Satan was sort of a position, like a prosecutor or a foil.  So the idea of it being The Devil, is an obviousattempt to project later theological ideas retroactively onto older material.  SkyWriting's hamfisted assertions not withstanding.



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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #226 on: July 16, 2013, 10:56:14 AM »
The slavery in the Bible was a part of culture they had to deal with.....

Where did that culture come from, Sky?  Given that everyone was a descendant of Adam and Noah, and that Yahweh was fully prepared to issue commandments about all kinds of trivia, how did that culture originate?  Specifically, within the culture of the followers of Yahweh (for who the rules on slavery were written).

What prevented Yahweh from making one of his commandments "thou shalt not keep slaves", as opposed to the (rather pointless) "have no other gods but me" - especially if there ARE no other gods.  Heck, he tells people not to wear poly-cotton blends.....but NOT to not keep slaves.

That is the very specific question that you are dancing away from.  Why did Yahweh allow a culture of slavery among his chosen people, if he did not approve of it, given the multiple commands he made about comparatively trivial issues?

The owner of my company uses a number of slaves.  I don't find any scripture against what he is doing either.

Your previous point was that slavery was a part of their culture at the time, so I asked why Yahweh let such a culture arise.  It appears you are saying that the lack of negative commentary from Yahweh on slavery means.....what?  That he approves of it?  Or that he regards it as so trivial an issue as to not be worth mentioning?  Can you clarify please, because as things stand I do not see how your response answers my questions.

Your definition of "Slavery" is a unique combination of "features" that you alone have defined......

And STILL you find yourself unable to answer the questions I actually asked.  You tried to apologise for the references to slavery in the garden by saying "well, that was their culture....." - so I asked why Yahweh let that culture develop.

And the simple question that I would like you to answer to make your position clear.

It appears you are saying that the lack of negative commentary from Yahweh on slavery means.....what?  That he approves of it?  Or that he regards it as so trivial an issue as to not be worth mentioning?  Can you clarify please, because as things stand I do not see how your response answers my questions.


If you list exactly what "features" of your definition of slavery you are averse to we can address if scriptures cover them or not.  Work for low pay, work for no money, boss won't let you eat while working, boss tells you where you must sleep, you can't leave in the middle of the day, no cell phone use, no food at your desk, what ever.

What ever you object to, I'm sure I can find legal examples on your block or in your house.
Fine.
My boss is not allowed to beat me.  I am not allowed to beat my staff.
I can walk away from my job at any time.  My boss cannot legally compel me to remain.

Make me laugh Sky.  Tell me where either of those happen in my house, or on my block.  Tell me where scripture tells me that beating a slave is wrong.  Tell me where scripture tells us that a slave can walk away, free and clear, whenever they want.

You won't of course.  You won't answer any question directly.  Why is that?  If your god's word, your god's position, is so good, so right, then why is it so hard for you to give a clear and direct answer?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline William

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #227 on: July 16, 2013, 12:28:19 PM »
Yes. 
Our entire reality was effected as a result of Man deciding to go his own way.

This assertion doesn't begin to address the inequity of me (or you) being guilty of the sin of Adam and Eve, long before we were born.
I rebel - with a just cause.

Only problem is I have no idea who I'm rebelling against because BibleGod obviously isn't real  :o
Some or other god may be real - but where am I to look? An honest reading of the Bible has utterly convinced me it cannot be true, not even between the lines.
I sincerely sought a personal experience of God - absolutely none was forthcoming. The immense silence was telling.
My only honourable way forward is to trust myself.
Would a real God want me to fake it?
Would I even want a God who expects me to fake it?
Git mit uns

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #228 on: July 16, 2013, 02:49:33 PM »
Yes. 
Our entire reality was effected as a result of Man deciding to go his own way.

This assertion doesn't begin to address the inequity of me (or you) being guilty of the sin of Adam and Eve, long before we were born.
I rebel - with a just cause.

Only problem is I have no idea who I'm rebelling against because BibleGod obviously isn't real  :o
Some or other god may be real - but where am I to look? An honest reading of the Bible has utterly convinced me it cannot be true, not even between the lines.
I sincerely sought a personal experience of God - absolutely none was forthcoming. The immense silence was telling.
My only honourable way forward is to trust myself.
Would a real God want me to fake it?
Would I even want a God who expects me to fake it?


The problem is that God is not capable of "being in the same room" with anything less than perfection.   Physically we would just be destroyed to be in His presence.  It's not a judgment, its like a "law of nature."   So there things a person needs to do before communication can begin.  Read about "faith" to know what you are expected to do first.

http://biblez.com/search.php?q=faith

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #229 on: July 16, 2013, 03:11:02 PM »
My boss is not allowed to beat me.

He can verbally abuse you and berate you. Bully you.  That can cause you harm for life. Wounds will easily heal.  From the view of your best interest, the scriptures should read "do not consider your self higher than others."    Oh.  It does.

Quote
I am not allowed to beat my staff.

You are not allowed to even think of yourself as higher than others.  Covered in scripture.

Quote
My boss cannot... compel me to remain.

I removed mention of our current legal system.
He has many ways to compel you to remain.
Vacation, health insurance, 401 k matching funds, "vested" years, a list of days you didn't show up for work, list of complaints about you at work.....your reputation, a job reference, non-compete clauses defining where you can work if you leave....and more.

 So I hope we have broken it down and decided that the Bible does not clearly prohibit
"slavery", but it does cover the various aspects of slavery and condemns those aspects
that we abhor.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 03:26:01 PM by SkyWriting »

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #230 on: July 16, 2013, 03:15:30 PM »
SkyWriting's hamfisted assertions not withstanding.

Did I say Satan was in the Garden? 
I can't find that.
If I did, that was my mistake.

Perhaps I alluded to it.
Many consider the serpent to be
under the influence of Satan,
given the results.

But I appreciate the conservative
reading you give, noting that the
serpent is not actually the Devil.
Conservative interpreters are rare.
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 03:22:50 PM by SkyWriting »

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #231 on: July 16, 2013, 11:23:30 PM »
The secret to good interpretation is to allow other writers to make sense of the text for you.

No. That's the secret of a biased and bad interpretation.

What Biblical writing shows, is that it is malleable into a new interpretation, irrespective of the original intent of the author. The secret of a "good" interpretation is to know what the original writer thought he was writing, and there is no way to do that, given that future writers revised what they wrote, by (a) appending stuff, and (b) just plain editing stuff.

In the story of Abraham sacrificing his son, we cannot know for sure, if the original text spared his son. Therefore, it's impossible to interpret this text in one useful way, because it looks like it has been faked over.

The process by which Biblical books are written, is called "Midrash". People invent stories to fill in mythical details, and then someone eventually writes down the oral-invented story, and passes it off as being written by someone in the past. An example of this is Gen 6, where it mentions giants. This was midrashed into the book of 1 Enoch, which details how all the angels mated with humans, and were part of an angelic war, referenced in Revelation. Later Christian writers decided that angels couldn't mate with humans, because humans were too impure, so they deleted 1 Enoch. However, in doing this, they deleted all the midrash which shaped sheol into hell, so now we have no explanation for where hell came from, and what Jesus was talking about, when he said "you do not know your scripture, we shall all be as angels".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Midrash
« Last Edit: July 16, 2013, 11:27:57 PM by Add Homonym »
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