Author Topic: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?  (Read 14185 times)

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Online jaimehlers

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #145 on: July 01, 2013, 08:39:11 AM »
Guys I am not allowed to debate.  I cannot force you to believe anything I say.  I can only plant a seed.  God himself must make it grow.  I can clarify anything I've said, but I don't see any questions being asked for clarification.
Which basically means you know deep down that if you debated us seriously, you'd risk losing your 'precious' faith.  That's why all you're willing to do is try to plant a seed.  Imagine if farmers operated in a similar manner:  "I'll just toss these seeds on the ground here and hope that God makes them grow."  A certain Biblical parable notwithstanding, that would be a piss-poor way to raise crops.  Many, probably most, of them would die from neglect (not getting enough water or sunlight, getting eaten by animals, getting choked out by weeds, getting destroyed by weather, etc).  No, it takes real effort and work for farmers to grow crops effectively.  Far more than you've just shown you're willing to do.

Also, you're straying very close to preaching here.  By declaring that you aren't willing to debate anything, only answer questions for clarification, you're expecting other people to listen to you but you aren't willing to do the same for them.  That's practically the definition of preaching.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #146 on: July 01, 2013, 08:53:11 AM »
1) Satan and his angels were created by god, so why are they bad?

It seem that God prefers the company of independent thinkers over mindless slaves. I dunno why.

LOL - that's a good one!

When Adam and Eve demonstrated independent thought, did your god (a) reward them, or (b) get into an almighty strop about it?

Yahweh was happiest when A&E were doing exactly what he told them, without thinking about it.  Yahweh likes mindless slaves, not thinkers.  He may SAY he likes people to think, but his actions when they do give the lie to his words.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #147 on: July 01, 2013, 12:03:44 PM »
That leads me to think that you don't really know what you believe, but are repeating something you have been told.

I am repeating what I am able to confirm that is taught in the Bible.  Many people have helped me along the way.

Quote from: nogodsforme
When you try to mesh what you have been told about god, the world, and so forth with common sense reality, you end up sounding like you are making up stuff as you go along.

Some of the things you are asking me puts me into the realm of speculation.  I can only answer for sure the things that are recorded in the Bible.  The Bible has very little details about how things will be operated in the future, or at least not a lot has been revealed to me.  While I don't mind speculating, I don't like presenting speculation as fact.

Quote from: nogodsforme
You talk about all the people who have ever lived being brought back to life, but there being no overcrowding....

Here is where I have left a gap.  I said everyone will be brought back to life, but not in an absolute sense.  Many, but I don't know how many, will not be resurrected.  Those that have died through direct intervention of God will not be resurrected.  These include all those destroyed in the flood and all those destroyed at Armageddon.  Also everyone will not be resurrected at once and some that are resurrected may not remain through the entire 1000 years.  So I have no way of knowing exact numbers of how many will be alive at one time because God has not provided these numbers.  But I do know God's purpose was to have the earth filled and not overfilled.  I can speculate, and believe, man will eventually inhabit other planets, but the Bible neither confirm nor denies this.  So I cannot present it as fact.

Quote from: Anfauglir
What does that entail, please?  What lessons are going to be taught by Jesus?

I don't know the exact details.  I can only answer according to what I know.  I know the Christ will have the same personality as he did while on earth, but he will not have to submit to higher man made authorities.  I'm sure some miracles will occur but there will be no magic spell to take away our free will.  His lessons will revolve around loving others.  Probably there will be counselors since he has provided some in our current day.  Only rebels will receive adverse judgement.

For example, noone will go without the necessities of life.  People will not hoard things to the harm of others.  People will not have mental illness.  No Satan.  So why steal?  Perhaps there are other stumbling blocks that cause people to steal.  Whatever they may be, they will be removed.  And there will be an education program, although I don't know the exact content of the lessons, other than people will be taught to love.  Yet despite all this some may still choose to steal just to be rebellious.  If so, they will be done away with at least by the end of the 1000 years if not before.

Quote from: jaimehlers
Which basically means you know deep down that if you debated us seriously, you'd risk losing your 'precious' faith.

Not at all.  Everything is permissable but not everything is beneficial.  The goal of debates on forums like this is to win, but not necessarily to be right.  Often tempers flare, people become dogmatic, and resort to trying to browbeat their opponent into submission and even sometimes resort to childish name calling.  I do not want to provoke these things nor be provoked into doing them.  Either way I will have disowned my God and his message and love of my neighbor.  And then what good am I?

Quote
That's why all you're willing to do is try to plant a seed.  Imagine if farmers operated in a similar manner:  "I'll just toss these seeds on the ground here and hope that God makes them grow."

No.  First you must select the type of seed or something will grow that you did not want.  Next the seed must be carefully planted.  Then the seed must be watered and the growing plants must be tended.  This is the farmer's job.  He does everything but make it grow.  If he finds a tender shoot and begins pulling on it to make it grow faster (debating), will he not uproot it?

Quote
Also, you're straying very close to preaching here.  By declaring that you aren't willing to debate anything, only answer questions for clarification, you're expecting other people to listen to you but you aren't willing to do the same for them.  That's practically the definition of preaching.

People on this thread are questioning if my statements are true and I am answering as best I can.  Some of my statements have been opposed and I respond as I am doing now.  That is different than debating.  A two sided discussion is fine with me, but if it descends into pointless debate then I must obey God.

 





 
« Last Edit: July 01, 2013, 12:05:42 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Online jdawg70

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #148 on: July 01, 2013, 12:57:26 PM »
Here is where I have left a gap.  I said everyone will be brought back to life, but not in an absolute sense.  Many, but I don't know how many, will not be resurrected.
Seriously - read that above sentence.  You've stripped the word 'resurrection' of any coherent meaning.  Define 'resurrect' in some manner that makes the above sentence not a blatant disregard for basic logic.
Quote
People on this thread are questioning if my statements are true and I am answering as best I can.  Some of my statements have been opposed and I respond as I am doing now.  That is different than debating.  A two sided discussion is fine with me, but if it descends into pointless debate then I must obey God.
Do you ever ask yourself if the statements you are making are true?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #149 on: July 01, 2013, 02:45:07 PM »
How will Jesus cure mental illness? Will he alter the genetic makeup that leads to schizophrenia? Will he regulate the brain chemicals that cause depression? Will he fill in the holes in the brain that cause dementia? Will he change the past events of a person so that they never experience the war trauma that led to PTSD?

Each time you make a statement, you just open up a whole new set of questions.....
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #150 on: July 01, 2013, 04:38:07 PM »
Mooby,

Why would Biblegod allow imperfect beings into Heaven?

-Nam

That is not an option.  One must be reborn.  This body stinks.

didn't your god create this body?  You dissing his creation??  ("created in his image" and stuff too...)
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

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Online Boots

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #151 on: July 01, 2013, 04:51:39 PM »
Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing
The goal of debates on forums like this is to win, but not necessarily to be right.

Huh?!?!

No.  no, it is not.
* Religion: institutionalized superstition, period.

"Many of my ultra-conservative Republican friends...have trouble accepting the idea God is not a Republican. " ~OldChurchGuy

"We humans may never figure out the truth, but I prefer trying to find it over pretending we know it."  ~ParkingPlaces

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #152 on: July 01, 2013, 05:51:11 PM »
Seriously - read that above sentence.  You've stripped the word 'resurrection' of any coherent meaning.  Define 'resurrect' in some manner that makes the above sentence not a blatant disregard for basic logic.

Resurrection is not what I mean is not absolute.  "Everyone" is not absolute.  That is why I go on to explain that some will not be resurrected.

Quote from: jdawg
Do you ever ask yourself if the statements you are making are true?

Yes I wrestle with that every day.  The last thing I want to do is spread lies about my God.  That is why sometimes you're going to get the answer of "I don't know"

Quote from: nogodsforme
How will Jesus cure mental illness? Will he alter the genetic makeup that leads to schizophrenia? Will he regulate the brain chemicals that cause depression? Will he fill in the holes in the brain that cause dementia? Will he change the past events of a person so that they never experience the war trauma that led to PTSD?

Imperfection will be removed through the removal of sin by virtue of the application of his sacrifice.  He demonstrated while on earth his ability to heal.  I don't know how this will translate to a global scale.  But it is sin and imperfection that cause sickness and death.  And I don't mean on a case by case basic.  John Smith isn't sick because of some sin he or anyone else committed.  He is sick because the overall effect of sin is sickness, old age, death.  A little yeast works through the entire batch.  The human body self-corrects but it is in an imperfect state so it does not do so perfectly.

Quote from: nogodsforme
Each time you make a statement, you just open up a whole new set of questions.....

I understand.  Such is the nature of God and of learning.  It is good to have questions.  But I have not been given all the answers, and neither has mankind.  We have been given what is needed now and only a glimpse of the future.  Plus I am a very lowly servant.  I am not the best farmer on the field.  And many others are smarter than I am and more importantly more spiritual.

Here is where faith comes in.  I do not have faith in God's existance.  I have faith in God's promises.  I have faith in his promises because his existance is sure.  And God cannot lie.  The entire message of the Bible is that man does not have the capacity to solve all of his own problems.  Man still hasn't even eliminated the most basic problems common to us all such as homlessness, starvation, and lack of healthcare.  How many thousands of years should it take to solve the most basic problems?  So when you ask me how God is going to solve all these problems, I am just grabbing at wind.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #153 on: July 01, 2013, 07:10:01 PM »
It is understandable that there are many problems that people have not been able to solve. However, when we concentrate our minds and resources on a particular issue, it is amazing what we can accomplish. We have communications satellites in space, we have eliminated polio and smallpox, women no longer routinely die in childbirth, we can travel all over the world in a day or two. Each of these things was a "miracle" of human ingenuity. If we had just kept praying for these things, none of them would have ever happened.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #154 on: July 01, 2013, 07:19:55 PM »
^^^You obviously know nothing about the history of agriculture, how the domestication of animals happened or basically anything real on this planet. &)

Do you really think that all the plants and animals (and viruses, insects and bacteria) on earth were put here to benefit human beings? Or are you going to try to argue that the things we like (puppies) were put here by god and the things we don't like (mosquitoes with the malaria virus) were put here by Satan?  :o

 Just a correction. Malaria is caused by a protist not a virus.
http://www.cdc.gov/malaria/
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #155 on: July 02, 2013, 02:10:34 AM »
I don't know the exact details......

Exactly.  This is not entirely aimed at you, but this is exactly what.....annoys me so much about believers.

Take a gander at this little exchange.

How do you suppose he'd go about removing abuse, I wonder?
he will not judge as one having eyes that cannot see.  He will know his people and he will know how to help them.  And he will help them out of their weaknesses, all those that listen to his voice. 
Sorry, what does that actually mean?  Can you give an example?
It means disobediance comes in many shades and he will look beneath the surface just as he did while on earth.  He will know the heart of a person just like he knew the heart of the criminal crucified next to him.....
But that's not what you said.  You said "he knows how to help them" and "he will help them out of their weakness".  And we were looking at this in the context of "how he would remove abuse".  Very easy to move the goalposts when you don't quote the whole exchange.
So - specifically - how will Jesus remove abuse, given that he "will know how to help them"?
.....Abusers that willingly participate will learn not to be abusers and will not abuse.   Those that refuse to participate will be removed from the kingdom and will be returned to their state before resurrection.  They will sleep in death forever.....
Oh dear - STILL not answering the question.  Closest you have come is that bit I have bolded.
What does that entail, please?  What lessons are going to be taught by Jesus?
(Why is it so hard to get a believer to answer a direct question?)
I don't know the exact details.  I can only answer according to what I know.  I know the Christ will have the same personality as he did while on earth, but he will not have to submit to higher man made authorities.  I'm sure some miracles will occur but there will be no magic spell to take away our free will.  His lessons will revolve around loving others.  Probably there will be counselors since he has provided some in our current day. .....

What a lengthy to-and-fro to get to the answer "I don't know".  It feels like in every single exchange I have with believers, we get the woolly "oh, Jeebus will solve the problems!", followed by a succession of "how?", "waffle", "how?", "waffle", "yes, but HOW?", until finally we reach the "well, I don't really know - but I just KNOW he will sort things out!".

Frankly it frustrates me - not so much that they have a belief baed on faith (although it does), but that they feel the need to twist and squirm and obfuscate, and trot out the high-sounding statements that - when pressed - simply dissolve.  Maybe its a defense mechanism, I don't know.  Like the best politicians, they seem to be able to spin and spin eternally.  There are very, very few that, in the end, will actually admit "I don't know", so kudos to you for doing so.  Going back now to give you a +1 for that.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Add Homonym

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #156 on: July 02, 2013, 09:03:26 AM »
My God does not approve of a sedentary lifestyle.  It is he that provided man with the satisfaction of accomplishment.  He provided the first human pair with worthwhile work to do.  His children today have work to do.  During the 1000 years there will be work to do.  For one, the earth his not going to turn itself into a paradise.  Those resurrected must be welcomed and instructed.  It's not going to all be chaos or occur without our participation.  There will be new divine instructions that will need to be learned.    There will be no lack of things to do.

There's a certain amount of JW midrash, here  :D

If we were to dare to read what's written in the Bible, Jesus says that "we will all be as angels", and won't even be able to marry. I don't quite understand how there will be a lot of work to do, because, even now, humans could fix up the world, fairly rapidly, if we even considered there was a point to it all. The directionlessness of the human species is created by there being no leader with authority, besides the rule of capitalism, and exploitation of natural laws. The chaos is caused by nobody really believing in anything, or knowing what to work towards. The reason that nobody really believes in anything, is apparently because God chooses to hide.

I remember that you are one of the Christians who goes by the book, and has "faith", rather than having a direct experience of God.

However: back to having no leader. I'm pretty sure that 99% humans would fall into line and serve God, if God gave us solutions; that is: actually lead us. If God showed up to me and said, "Listen Add Homonym, you are going to have a happy and fulfilling life, if you just do this this and this". Then, when I did that that and that, it turned out to be true, I would have no doubt that God had saved me, and could tell others that when God appeared to them, and told them what to do, their life would work out peachy.

But, as you know, that's not the way it, works, because this world is supposedly a test from God. If we start really believing in God, then we get cancer, or someone beats us up. If we try to give all our wealth away, as the NT says, then we end up living in the gutter and then getting cancer. The Bible even says that the God of this world is Satan; I suppose to encourage us.

So, what I'm saying, here, is that the New Testament is not a solution, or leadership, because it seems to be a philosophical wank, written by purists who avoided admitting how the real world worked. Indeed, the writers of Christianity considered that the world was about to end, so were not interested in dispensing anything useful, that could settle a political argument. Christ acknowledges this, by saying that he is bringing a sword to the world. (Matt 10:34). What he really means, is that he is Stalin; bringing divisive bullshit. The bullshit sounds plausible, and as if it could work, if only we tried really really hard to adhere to it.

The only thing that actually works, is trying to be nice to people, but Christians screw that up, by pretending that God is real (the he will help you), preaching hell, and adhering to the Old Testament.

This is probably why Christians don't "obey Jesus", and it's why American leadership believes that "Free Trade" and "Trickle Down Capitalism" will fix the world, rather than doing anything that Jesus says. The evidence suggests that if you give your money away to people, they just spend it on shit, and you have lost your capital to help anyone else. How do we strike a balance between giving money away, and building up employment-generating empires, while fighting off communism? (Which is something that Jesus inspired.)  Well, let's look to the Bible... nope nothing there. Lots of stuff about light, dark, false Christs, and demonically possessed pigs, but nothing that helps.

Apparently, we have to make up anything that makes sense, from the prime directive: Love Thy Neighbour. Paul got it right, when he said "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." After that, it was all down hill.

Quote
  If ever there was a message God wants us to hear, it is this one and that of his sons sacrifice. 

You forgot about the message from Mohammad, that Jesus didn't die on the cross, and that he was just a prophet. I think that God wants us to hear that just as much.

Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Online jdawg70

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #157 on: July 02, 2013, 10:57:33 AM »
Seriously - read that above sentence.  You've stripped the word 'resurrection' of any coherent meaning.  Define 'resurrect' in some manner that makes the above sentence not a blatant disregard for basic logic.

Resurrection is not what I mean is not absolute.  "Everyone" is not absolute.  That is why I go on to explain that some will not be resurrected.
So why not just say 'not everyone will be resurrected'?  You mean 'not everyone', so just say 'not everyone'.  Why say "Everyone will be resurrect, but I don't actually mean everyone.  Some people won't.  But I want to use the word 'everyone' just because, even though I mean the opposite of the word 'everyone'."

If resurrect means 'brought back to life', and not everyone will be 'brought back to life', it is simply incorrect to say "Everyone will be resurrected".  It's not a question of absolutes.
Quote
Quote from: jdawg
Do you ever ask yourself if the statements you are making are true?

Yes I wrestle with that every day.  The last thing I want to do is spread lies about my God.  That is why sometimes you're going to get the answer of "I don't know"
And if god wanted you to spread lies about him/her/it, would you be able to tell?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #158 on: July 02, 2013, 12:04:17 PM »
It is understandable that there are many problems that people have not been able to solve.

This is the problem here.  The biggest problems facing mankind are not understandable nor are they new.  There is no excuse for people to be homeless, starving, or without basic healthcare.  No excuse at all.  Man has the capacity and the knowledge and even the desire to do it.  They just don't.  Those responsible are guilty of mass murderings in the eyes of God.  And they are murderers.

Quote from: Anfauglir
Frankly it frustrates me - not so much that they have a belief baed on faith (although it does), but that they feel the need to twist and squirm and obfuscate, and trot out the high-sounding statements that - when pressed - simply dissolve.  Maybe its a defense mechanism, I don't know.

I understand your sentiment.  My goal is not to mislead.  And before I say, "I don't know" I want to give voice to what I do know.  In short Jesus will heal the same way he did while on earth.  But taking this and applying it to a global scale is a different matter.  In short he will do it by the removal of sin and imperfection.  But I don't know how he will do this.

Add Homonym

You make many good points.  I will try to respond to them.

Man is certainly a grand creation, capable of many things if they put their mind to it.  Your mention is a lack of leadership as a reason for a lack of direction I think is true.  However, God has not left us without direction.  Of all the things man has done, and can do, there is one major stumbling block that he continually trips over.  That stumbling block is morality and man has stumbled over this since the beginning.  Untold atrocities have been, and continue to be, carried out because of differing morals.  From the time of Adam until now everyone wants to be the judge of what is good and what is bad and seldomly can we agree.

Many will slander that Adam and Eve did become "like God" knowing good and evil but that's not really true.  If it were true then there would not be so much confusion concerning what is good and what is bad.  Of the things that man was given this is one thing that was not given.  God reserved that right and authority for himself.  We are like children trying to raise ourselves.

That certainly does not mean that all humans are evil rebels.  There are many good people that try to do good things.  But they are met with opposition every step of the way.  Why do people die from preventable causes?  It largely is a question of morality.  People starve because it is not profitable to feed them.  This does not apply to every individual but to the majority.  Some people starve because they're lazy.  But here again, it's a question of morals.  It is not moral to be lazy, especially to the point that people suffer from it.

Quote
Apparently, we have to make up anything that makes sense, from the prime directive: Love Thy Neighbour. Paul got it right, when he said "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." After that, it was all down hill.

This is only half of the prime directive.  The first half is to love God.  Why?  Because loving your neighbor has to do with doing good toward them.  But what is good?  Sure sometimes it's obvious.  But there are many gray areas.  What if doing the right thing depends on accurately forseeing the future?  Scientists struggle with many ethical questions because they cannot accurately determine the outcome of their work.

So what do you do when you can't determine what is right and what is wrong?  You obey God because he has given us leadership in morality, the great stumbling block.  Yes, Jesus said to love your neighbor but what does that mean?  God has given us many directions and principles to apply to determine how to do that instead of just leaving us to make up our own minds.

Mankind is not subjected to the law of Moses that were given only to the Hebrews.  We should not practice "eye for eye" justice.  We are under instruction to exercise mercy and to good to those that hurt us.  So what good is the law?

We can use the law to determine right and wrong.  It is used to determine what is loving and what is not loving.  It is wrong to steal.  Why?  Because it is unloving.  And this is obvious to most of us.  But what about when matters become gray?  Search the law.  The embodiment of wisdom is in the law.  Obviously some laws do not directly apply but that is okay. It is the principles behind the laws that we need to get to.  This is what Jesus tried to teach and get us to see.

What of the punishments of the law?  These are not for us.  Why?  Because Jesus himself took the punishment of the law so we are no longer subject to it, but the law itself will remain forever.  Because Jesus took this punishment for us, he tells us to do good to those that hurt us.  What does that mean?  Does that mean I pat the thief on the back that stole from me?  No, certainly not.  That is neither good nor loving.  Let me illustrate.

Let's say you grew up in the Ghetto and are forced to develop some illegal survival skills.  Let's say you are caught stealing.  Now what would you want someone to do for you?  And what is the right thing to do?  The right thing to do is, not hold you guiltless, but not just visit punishment on your heard.  You need help and the right thing to do is to help.  And yes we do have rehabilitation programs and I know these are good because that is what Jesus taught.  But these are not nearly enough.  This amounts to applying band aids.  The root cause needs to be eliminated.  We cannot do so perfectly but we can do much better than what we do but we don't.

From God's point of view, not only do we not help those that need it, we spend resources that could be used to help them on making great weapons to kill each other and various expensive ways to exploit one another.  We are often willing to extend forgiveness and mercy to those in our circle, but how about beyond that?  The best way to ensure our survival is to love one another.  But who is teaching that?   If the world was wise people would teach this to each other above all else.  Only then can we hope to solve our most basic problems.







Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #159 on: July 02, 2013, 12:16:49 PM »
So why not just say 'not everyone will be resurrected'?  You mean 'not everyone', so just say 'not everyone'.  Why say "Everyone will be resurrect, but I don't actually mean everyone.  Some people won't.  But I want to use the word 'everyone' just because, even though I mean the opposite of the word 'everyone'."

I apologize for being unclear.  I am not the most spiritual of servants.  I did not mean to mislead you.

Earlier I said that "all those in memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out".  This statement is true and this includes the vast majority of mankind.  However not everyone that is dead are in memorial tombs.  Some have already experienced second death from which there is no resurrection.  And some still will.

Quote
And if god wanted you to spread lies about him/her/it, would you be able to tell?

No.

Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Eddie Schultz

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #160 on: July 02, 2013, 01:01:12 PM »
So....Jst, how long before you become a non believer? I sense by your questions and replies that you're getting close to being rational.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #161 on: July 02, 2013, 03:30:42 PM »
So....Jst, how long before you become a non believer? I sense by your questions and replies that you're getting close to being rational.

I agree. The JW worldview does not bear close scrutiny for that reason.
In my experience there are two basic ways out of JW thinking: either extreme rationality (ie. me) or even more extreme irrationality (ie. Scientology).

But there are also former JW's who drift into other religions of a JW-lite variety, because they just can give up the idea of having found "the truth".

We were not encouraged to go to college, because we were told that this evil world would pass away real soon and college was therefore a waste of time. It was better to learn a basic trade and spend as much time as possible studying reading JW literature and spreading Jehovah's word.[1]I stopped believing that bs 40 years ago, and the world shows no sign of doing anything but keep trundling along as before. Some things are better, some worse, and the world just continues.

 1. Of course the real reason to discourage college is that higher ed exposes you to new ideas and forces you to ask questions. You might even meet nice people who are not JW's!
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #162 on: July 02, 2013, 07:31:14 PM »
I need to make some things clear.  I am not a Jehovah's Witness.  I am not yet ready to cross that bridge because I am not fully convinced in my own mind.  Considering I know a lot of their teaching but am not one of them, I often feel like they avoid me.  This may be a misperception but I cannot shake the feeling.  And maybe they should, especially those not solidly grounded.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline William

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #163 on: July 02, 2013, 09:20:47 PM »
... I am not fully convinced in my own mind.  .... I often feel like they avoid me. 

In that case you are being bullied for being honest.

If God is real, what would God think of a person who play-acts conformance in order to be accepted into a group (most of whom are probably also faking it)?

If God exists I think he would value integrity over fearful conformance.
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #164 on: July 03, 2013, 05:25:30 AM »
Quote from: Anfauglir
Frankly it frustrates me - not so much that they have a belief baed on faith (although it does), but that they feel the need to twist and squirm and obfuscate, and trot out the high-sounding statements that - when pressed - simply dissolve.  Maybe its a defense mechanism, I don't know.

I understand your sentiment.  My goal is not to mislead.  And before I say, "I don't know" I want to give voice to what I do know.  In short Jesus will heal the same way he did while on earth.  But taking this and applying it to a global scale is a different matter.  In short he will do it by the removal of sin and imperfection.  But I don't know how he will do this.

With respect, I don't accept this in any other field of my life, I don't accept it for religion.

If a politician says "I will be tough on X", that means nothing unless he can explain what that actually means. 
If a decorator says "I will make your house look nice", I want to know the specifics.

And when someone else says to me "this will happen" - but is unable to articulate how it will happen - then I wonder how accurate or reliable their "vision statements" can be.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Online jdawg70

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #165 on: July 03, 2013, 09:40:37 AM »
I apologize for being unclear.  I am not the most spiritual of servants.  I did not mean to mislead you.
It really didn't have anything to do with your 'spiritual' skill level or anything like that.  Perhaps it was simply due to me popping in mid-conversation as I missed the part about the "all those in memorial tombs" and it appears your use of the word 'everyone' was in conjunction with that earlier comment.  I contend that you shouldn't have used that word but honestly this may have been more of a misunderstanding on my part.
Quote
Earlier I said that "all those in memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out".  This statement is true and this includes the vast majority of mankind.  However not everyone that is dead are in memorial tombs.  Some have already experienced second death from which there is no resurrection.  And some still will.
I don't think I know what you mean by 'memorial tombs' however.  Could you go more into detail there?
Quote
Quote
And if god wanted you to spread lies about him/her/it, would you be able to tell?
No.
And if another entity was pretending to be god and giving you some messages or knowledge, would you be able to tell that?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #166 on: July 03, 2013, 11:47:58 PM »
Mooby,

Why would Biblegod allow imperfect beings into Heaven?

-Nam

That is not an option.  One must be reborn.  This body stinks.

didn't your god create this body?  You dissing his creation??  ("created in his image" and stuff too...)

We were originally created in His image.  If you read about it, we actually walked with God side by side.
Those days are over and this body dies.  You may know the smell.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #167 on: July 03, 2013, 11:50:14 PM »
1) Satan and his angels were created by god, so why are they bad?

It seem that God prefers the company of independent thinkers over mindless slaves. I dunno why.

LOL - that's a good one!

When Adam and Eve demonstrated independent thought, did your god (a) reward them, or (b) get into an almighty strop about it?

Yahweh was happiest when A&E were doing exactly what he told them, without thinking about it.  Yahweh likes mindless slaves, not thinkers.  He may SAY he likes people to think, but his actions when they do give the lie to his words.

That is a great point.  I will have to think about that.  Thanks.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #168 on: July 05, 2013, 09:58:48 AM »
Quote from: William
In that case you are being bullied for being honest.

This may be true, but I am not afraid.

Quote from: William
If God exists I think he would value integrity over fearful conformance.

He does.

Quote from: Anfauglir
With respect, I don't accept this in any other field of my life, I don't accept it for religion.

If a politician says "I will be tough on X", that means nothing unless he can explain what that actually means. 
If a decorator says "I will make your house look nice", I want to know the specifics.

And when someone else says to me "this will happen" - but is unable to articulate how it will happen - then I wonder how accurate or reliable their "vision statements" can be.

I understand this point of view.  I think perhaps I have been given your answer, or at least part of it.  Sin will be eliminated through the exercise of love.  The more we love the less we sin.  Once human love is perfected sin will cease.  Once this occurs human imperfection will be gone.  The abuser will stop abusing because he has learned to love his neighbor.

Quote from: jdawg
I don't think I know what you mean by 'memorial tombs' however.  Could you go more into detail there?

It is hard to understand Jesus word's that "all those in memorial tombs.....will come out" if one holds to the tradition of hellfire and heavenly rewards upon death.  Is he calling them out of heaven and hell to judge them again and put them right back where they were?  Of coure not.  Nowhere has God said people do not die.  It was the serpent that said that.  The dead are dead, awaiting a resurrection from the dead.  That is why people are said to sleep in death and that they are in memorial tombs.  Being in memorial tombs means they are remembered by God and will be resurrected.

Quote from: jdawg
And if another entity was pretending to be god and giving you some messages or knowledge, would you be able to tell that?

Possibly not.

Quote from: Anfauglir
Yahweh was happiest when A&E were doing exactly what he told them, without thinking about it.  Yahweh likes mindless slaves, not thinkers.  He may SAY he likes people to think, but his actions when they do give the lie to his words.

Using this same logic then parents prefer mindless slaves and have taken away the free will of their children.  Parents allow free will within a certain set of parameters.  So does God with his children.


Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline William

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #169 on: July 05, 2013, 10:20:18 AM »
Quote from: William
In that case you are being bullied for being honest.

This may be true, but I am not afraid.
Maybe you should be afraid. Invest a little of your time checking out ex jehovah's witnesses support group forums.


Quote from: William
If God exists I think he would value integrity over fearful conformance.

He does.

Great to hear. Can you give me some references to where God says this please.

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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #170 on: July 05, 2013, 10:42:42 AM »
Maybe you should be afraid. Invest a little of your time checking out ex jehovah's witnesses support group forums.

I have checked out some of them.

Quote
Great to hear. Can you give me some references to where God says this please.

Here is one that represents God's will for his children. 

"My son, if thou wilt receive my words, And lay up my commandments with thee; So as to incline thine ear unto wisdom, And apply thy heart to understanding; Yea, if thou cry after discernment, And lift up thy voice for understanding; If thou seek her as silver, And search for her as for hid treasures:  Then shalt thou understand the fear of Jehovah, And find the knowledge of God."  (Proverbs 2:1-5 ASV)



Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline William

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #171 on: July 05, 2013, 12:08:02 PM »
Here is one that represents God's will for his children. 

"My son, if thou wilt receive my words, And lay up my commandments with thee; So as to incline thine ear unto wisdom, And apply thy heart to understanding; Yea, if thou cry after discernment, And lift up thy voice for understanding; If thou seek her as silver, And search for her as for hid treasures:  Then shalt thou understand the fear of Jehovah, And find the knowledge of God."  (Proverbs 2:1-5 ASV)

I don't see any integrity in this.  I don't see a person using their own reasoning faculties to assess and decide if what they are hearing from God makes sense. This is about accepting God even before God says anything.  Like an obsequious puppy dog receiving a treat only after it cowered in fear before us.

How can anyone with integrity make up their mind God is right BEFORE they hear what God has to say?

Speaking for myself, I was taught to believe before I even knew much about the scriptures. I was fertile ground because of innocence and childhood brainwashing.  As I grew I didn't actively decide to see problems with religion. I wasn't even looking for them.  The problems just became plain obvious and nothing I could do - not even heartfelt prayer - produced any answers from God.  The "knowledge of God" in Proverbs 2:1-5 was withheld from me.  It's a lie to me.

I did nothing other than use my brain (which I thought was God-given) so see the massive problems in religion and scriptures. Would I have any integrity if I shut out those thoughts without looking for more information?  What should I do if what I find confirms that the problems and inconsistencies are real?  Suppress it because I'm scared of God?  No!  I'm not a coward.

And back to the point of the OP, this same experience of dissonance between scriptures and reality (I think) is the main reason people disobey Jesus (and God).  The scriptures just don't make sense when you take them seriously:
Why would anyone hate their family, and abandon them?
Why would anyone sell all their stuff and give it all away? 
Why would we not feel relieved, even happy, that Osama Bin Laden was shot dead?
Why do we save for our retirement?
Why would anyone mutilate themselves because they thought somebody looks sexy?
Why are we (most of us) afraid of handling snakes?
Why do we label poisons as poisons and avoid ingesting them?
Why do we take our injured loved ones to hospitals and doctors instead of prayer groups?

Blind faith in Jesus or God's "Word" is patently dangerous and stupid.  We'd have ZERO integrity accepting what scriptures say with respect to any of the above.  We'd have ZERO integrity if we didn't question EVERYTHING else in the same book the above nonsense appears in.

I can conclude only one thing, that if there is a god of some description out there it cannot possibly be BibleGod.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2013, 12:16:29 PM by William »
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Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #172 on: July 06, 2013, 08:13:31 AM »
Quote from: William
I don't see any integrity in this.  I don't see a person using their own reasoning faculties to assess and decide if what they are hearing from God makes sense. This is about accepting God even before God says anything.  Like an obsequious puppy dog receiving a treat only after it cowered in fear before us.

Finding the "knowledge of God" has to do with understanding what God has done and why instead of basking in ignorance and blind conformance.  Those that choose to do that are actually doing the opposite of what God wills.

Quote from: William
Speaking for myself, I was taught to believe before I even knew much about the scriptures. I was fertile ground because of innocence and childhood brainwashing.  As I grew I didn't actively decide to see problems with religion. I wasn't even looking for them.  The problems just became plain obvious and nothing I could do - not even heartfelt prayer - produced any answers from God.  The "knowledge of God" in Proverbs 2:1-5 was withheld from me.  It's a lie to me.

My experience as a child was similar.  As a Baptist child I was taught, "do not question God".  But that is not what the scripture above says to do.  What they were really saying was "don't question me".  Why?  Because they themselves did not obey the Bible's instruction to seek the knowledge of God and therefore they themselves had to idea.  They blindly conformed and taught others to do the same.  Sure they had some answers, but when you really pressed them they came up empty handed.

Quote from: William
I did nothing other than use my brain (which I thought was God-given) so see the massive problems in religion and scriptures. Would I have any integrity if I shut out those thoughts without looking for more information?  What should I do if what I find confirms that the problems and inconsistencies are real?  Suppress it because I'm scared of God?  No!  I'm not a coward.

You are absolutely right and God is looking for suchlike ones.  Like God, I want my children to have faith in my decisions.  But how can they if everytime they question my decision I answer, "because I said so".  It's utterly ridiculous.  Genuine faith cannot be built upon, "because I said so."  And this is not what God has done.  If that were all he had to say then the Bible would be considerably smaller.

Because I have built up my child's faith in my decisions, if there comes a time when a child just cannot grasp why I make a certain decision, because of that faith they are much more inclined to just obey and seek understanding later.  Of course this is harder for me than for God because I make mistakes.  But because I have educated them in my will they fully understand I am looking out for them.  But how do you teach a two year old why they should not play with an electrical socket?  Sometimes the only answer is "because I said so".  Of course we are not two year olds, but we too must begin with small steps of understanding.

Quote from: William
And back to the point of the OP, this same experience of dissonance between scriptures and reality (I think) is the main reason people disobey Jesus (and God).  The scriptures just don't make sense when you take them seriously:
Why would anyone hate their family, and abandon them?
Why would anyone sell all their stuff and give it all away? 
Why would we not feel relieved, even happy, that Osama Bin Laden was shot dead?
Why do we save for our retirement?
Why would anyone mutilate themselves because they thought somebody looks sexy?
Why are we (most of us) afraid of handling snakes?
Why do we label poisons as poisons and avoid ingesting them?
Why do we take our injured loved ones to hospitals and doctors instead of prayer groups?

I have already answered most of these in my first post on this thread.  If you'd like to further discuss my answers then lead the way.

Quote from: William
Blind faith in Jesus or God's "Word" is patently dangerous and stupid.  We'd have ZERO integrity accepting what scriptures say with respect to any of the above.  We'd have ZERO integrity if we didn't question EVERYTHING else in the same book the above nonsense appears in.

You are absolutely right.  But as any casual observer should see, answers in the Bible are not always as plain on the nose on our face.  If you would seek understanding you must do it as one searching for "hidden treasure" and not as one that just scratches the surface.  You will not find the treasure on the surface.
 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline William

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #173 on: July 06, 2013, 08:50:19 AM »
But as any casual observer should see, answers in the Bible are not always as plain on the nose on our face.  If you would seek understanding you must do it as one searching for "hidden treasure" and not as one that just scratches the surface.  You will not find the treasure on the surface.

God is amazing.  Speaking in clever riddles and teasing us with little hints that encourage us to scratch when we reach the right age. 
He'd make the perfect game show host - revelling in our efforts to crack His clever cryptic clues:

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=841_1359244554

Pity about all the low IQ folk who can't think for themselves :?
Pity about all the high IQ folk who do think for themselves :?
Pity the penalty for trying but not getting the answers exactly right is eternal suffering in the fires of hell  :?
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