Author Topic: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?  (Read 13653 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Jag

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1712
  • Darwins +181/-7
  • Gender: Female
  • Official WWGHA Harpy, Ex-rosary squad
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #116 on: June 28, 2013, 09:59:54 AM »
Remember Lucifer and the angels who rebelled against god in heaven to begin with.

This is generally a conversation stopper; I'm curious to see if it gets addressed by our current group of friendly folks...

I'll hold off on the popcorn for now.

Well, we're 0 for 1 - Jstwebbrowsing included it but didn't address it.

Who's next?
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1845
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #117 on: June 28, 2013, 10:41:09 AM »
Jst, the fact that there are so many ways to interpret what the bible wants you to do--and therefore so many different kinds of Christians-- should tell you something.

It tells me that many people want to know God.

Just like many children want to know Santa Claus? Exactly.



I want to live in a society that has Jesus as it's king.  Nothing less will suffice.

So basically, you want a society with an invisible king then? A Cosmic Kim Jong Il who rules from on high, can convict you of thought crime, and not only owns you from cradle to grave but into infinity also after you're dead.

How blissful and idea! NOT.

This "Jesus is my King" thing is no different than trying to make the tooth fairy your king. Feelings and emotional reactions to sermons or words in a book are not a god.

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1845
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #118 on: June 28, 2013, 10:49:10 AM »

I do not know all these things for which I speak.  Who can know them?  I am neither prophet nor holy man.  I am only a stumbling fool that has been sent with a message.

You do realize that this makes you sound like a flat out liar, right? You keep making claims to things as if you know they are going to happen - that God somehow sent YOU the memo - and then you contradict yourself by claiming you don't know them.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Online nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6411
  • Darwins +829/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #119 on: June 28, 2013, 01:51:15 PM »
There seems to be some contradictory stuff here, Jst.

You did not address the fact that Lucifer and the angels rebelled against god, even though they were right there in heaven with god. If they were in this perfect place, and had everything they could possibly want because they were in the presence of god, why start fighting against god? 

You also said that god will judge people on their actions. Does that mean therefore faith or belief does not matter as long as you act well? So Muslims, pagans, atheists, Jews, Buddhists will all be in heaven if they tried to be good people? Now where did you get that from, Jst?

Finally, you need to tell us how you know all this stuff that other people don't know.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1413
  • Darwins +25/-102
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #120 on: June 28, 2013, 05:04:29 PM »
Quote from: dante
So why then, do you weep, why do you feel sadness when a loved one of yours passes on? Shouldn't you, and all xians, rejoice?

There will be rejoicing at the resurrection.  Until then, loved ones are sleeping in abode of the dead.  Why rejoice at that?

Quote from: Anfauglir
Sorry, what does that actually mean?  Can you give an example?

It means disobediance comes in many shades and he will look beneath the surface just as he did while on earth.  He will know the heart of a person just like he knew the heart of the criminal crucified next to him.  Although this criminal had the outward appearance of being a bad man, and human rulers had consigned him to death, Jesus told him, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise."  This criminal will be resurrected.  Why?  Because Jesus knew something the human rulers didn't.  If you were that criminal and you are resurrected, would you be willing to try and learn to love?  That is what Jesus will look at.

Quote from: median
So basically, you want a society with an invisible king then?

I want a king, visible or invisible, that will rid the people of their sufferings and give them a better life.

Quote from: median
You do realize that this makes you sound like a flat out liar, right?

Only if one cannot distinguish truth from a lie.  Because I tell you the truth, you call me a liar?  I only know the message and the message giver.  How can I know more unless it has been shown to me?

Quote from: nogodsforme
You did not address the fact that Lucifer and the angels rebelled against god, even though they were right there in heaven with god. If they were in this perfect place, and had everything they could possibly want because they were in the presence of god, why start fighting against god?

Lucifer became proud in his high station and he desired to make a name for himself.  In his pride he challenged God's right to rule the earth.  Many angels and even the first human pair sided with Satan.  If he had just destroyed them all then yes the issue would have come up again.  But in his wisdom he did not just destroy them.  He allowed them to have it their way.  From that time forward, man, with the help of Satan and his angels has ruled this earth. 

But God has reserved a time of a 1000 years when is own chosen king will rule the earth.  At the end of the 1000 years final judgment will be rendered on who should have the right to rule the earth.  With the issue settled, it will never be raised again.

Quote from: nogodsforme
You also said that god will judge people on their actions. Does that mean therefore faith or belief does not matter as long as you act well? So Muslims, pagans, atheists, Jews, Buddhists will all be in heaven if they tried to be good people?

Their resurrection does not occur in heaven.  It occurs upon the earth.  After the resurrection there will be no pagans, jews, atheists, etc.  His existance and rulership will be undeniable, but many Muslims, pagans, atheists, Jews, Buddhists, etc. will be resurrected.  ALL those in memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out.  They will come out into the rulership of that kingdom for which Christians were told to pray.  Among these people will be that criminal.

Quote from: nogodsforme
Finally, you need to tell us how you know all this stuff that other people don't know.

It is known to others, but not to everyone and everyone that knows it doesn't know it the same and some only think they know it.  That's because not everything that is called a god is really a god.  The only true God is Jehovah, the Holy one of Israel and he has said he will never give his glory to another.  It is HIS purposes that are recorded in the Holy Christian Scriptures.  It is this message that I bring to you.





Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Online nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6411
  • Darwins +829/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #121 on: June 28, 2013, 06:18:05 PM »
Jst, we've been to this barn dance before--aren't you using the perspective of the Jehovah's Witnesses? I was raised a Witness. Like most people, we were never taught the history of the religion we practiced and its origins. Since becoming an atheist, I have learned far more about the different religions of the world than I ever knew as a Witness. We were not encouraged to learn about other faiths because we knew we had found "the truth that leads to eternal life".

It might be useful for you to read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jehovah's_Witnesses

It is straightforward and does not trash the religion. Just tells you the facts.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1845
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #122 on: June 28, 2013, 06:40:05 PM »

I want a king, visible or invisible, that will rid the people of their sufferings and give them a better life.

Do you want Goldie Lox and the Seven Dwarfs with that too? Fantasy is not reality, but it's not surprising that you have a hard time distinguishing the two - with your religious bias and all.

You want an invisible king? Really? So I suppose you'd be fine with George Orwell's 1984 then? Could you get anymore credulous?


Only if one cannot distinguish truth from a lie.  Because I tell you the truth, you call me a liar?  I only know the message and the message giver.  How can I know more unless it has been shown to me?

You took what I said completely out of context - another dishonest move. And instead of responding to what I actually said you responded to some other argument I didn't make. Now that just makes you a dick.

You've made lots of claims to knowledge, like:

Quote
Yes I mean as a literal ruling king.  I anticipate that his rulership will reflect the same qualities he displayed while on earth, the qualities of love, justice, and mercy.  I anticipate him to rule as one that laid down his life for his people, one that will take abuse rather than render it.  And he will rule as a king that will never pass away.  Both the Christians and the unbelievers will be taught but one rule.  And that is the rule of love, and mankind will achieve it's greatest success, even unto perfection as the final enemy, death, is destroyed.

and...

Quote
Some will come out to a resurrection of life and others will come out to a resurrection of judgement.  The eyes of the blind will be opened and they will see the Christ in his glory.  They will be judged according to their actions.


First you make claims that you've got messages from your God, then you contradicted yourself by saying you didn't know God's message.

Quote
I do not know all these things for which I speak.

If you don't know these things, why do you keep claiming them? Why are you living your life based upon them? Why are you sacrificing your rational mind for a delusion?
« Last Edit: June 28, 2013, 06:52:35 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1413
  • Darwins +25/-102
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #123 on: June 29, 2013, 12:34:19 AM »
Jst, we've been to this barn dance before--aren't you using the perspective of the Jehovah's Witnesses?

It is much the same if not identical.  But I do not carry the words of the Watchtower.  If I did I would use many more quotations.

Quote
I was raised a Witness. Like most people, we were never taught the history of the religion we practiced and its origins.

I understand.

Quote from: nogodsforme
Since becoming an atheist, I have learned far more about the different religions of the world than I ever knew as a Witness. We were not encouraged to learn about other faiths because we knew we had found "the truth that leads to eternal life".

I have not been given authority to correct or debate organizational doctrines of any religion.  For me such isolation was crippling to my walk with God because my faith could not be tested but I really am just a fool.  I can see that such testing is scary and is more dangerous than playing with fire.  I can only speak about things God has revealed to me, and even then I speak only of his mercy.  I hear the voice of the shepherd and I search for him.  I have not been called by his undershepherds, though they will help me find him.

Quote from: median
Do you want Goldie Lox and the Seven Dwarfs with that too? Fantasy is not reality, but it's not surprising that you have a hard time distinguishing the two - with your religious bias and all.

You want an invisible king? Really? So I suppose you'd be fine with George Orwell's 1984 then? Could you get anymore credulous?

I have been clear about what I anticipate.  What more is there for me to say?  It's does not belong to me to make you believe the message.  It is only mine to deliver it.

Quote from: median
You took what I said completely out of context - another dishonest move. And instead of responding to what I actually said you responded to some other argument I didn't make. Now that just makes you a dick.

The kingdom of God is like a man that send his servants to gather guests for a feast.  The servants ask, "where is this feast that I may see it and tell it to the others?".   The man replies, "the feast will be prepared in your absense.  Go, deliever the message."  The servants seek out guests and deliver the message.  Some of the guests object, saying, "Did you see this feast so that I may know it's true?"  When the servants answer "no" then those guests answer,  "then I will not come to the feast."



 
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline junebug72

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 2032
  • Darwins +72/-83
  • Gender: Female
  • "Question Everything"
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #124 on: June 29, 2013, 08:51:17 AM »
        The Lord's Prayer


Our Father Who art in Heaven,
Hallowed be thy name.
Thy Kingdome come, thy will be done,
as in heaven,so in earth
Give us day by day our daily bread.
Forgive us our sins,
For we also forgive everyone that is indebted to us
And lead us not unto temptation but deliver us from evil




The Serenity Prayer


God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.
Living one day at a time;
Enjoying one moment at a time;
Accepting hardships as the pathway to peace;
Taking, as He did, this sinful world
as it is, not as I would have it;
Trusting that He will make all things right
if I surrender to His Will;
That I may be reasonably happy in this life
and supremely happy with Him
Forever in the next.
Amen.

--Reinhold Niebuhr



 The serenity prayer is not actually in the Bible, but rather was originally written by theologian Reinhold Niebuhr in the 1930s or 1940s.
 


These are two beautiful prayers.  The serenity prayer will get me through this cancer treatment..It has gotten me through many dark days. 

This however is not what we pray for.  We pray for money, apparently car keys, and aunt Bessie not realizing there are millions even small children dying from disease.  God doesn't wave a magic wand and fixes all.  We are the tools God uses so why not pray for things like empathy, compassion, strength, endurance and wisdom.  Wisdom to understand pollution causes cancer.  Smoking and exposure to carcinogens are all high risk factors.

The Lord's Prayer reminds to be humble.  Not to be tempted by the greedy ways of man.  It is all about self awareness.  Holding self accountable for it's actions.

The moral to the story is Jesus protested against long robes, long speechs and long prayers- Matt. 23:1-39.{happens twice on sunday and once on wednesday}

Maybe prayer has been used and abused.  All believers know God knows our needs, we don't have to ask.   
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1845
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #125 on: June 29, 2013, 10:48:03 AM »

I have been clear about what I anticipate.  What more is there for me to say?  It's does not belong to me to make you believe the message.  It is only mine to deliver it.

You have been clear about what you claimed to know, and then you contradicted yourself by saying you didn't really know those things. Are you that dishonest that you can't admit when you're in error?


The kingdom of God is like a man that send his servants to gather guests for a feast.  The servants ask, "where is this feast that I may see it and tell it to the others?".   The man replies, "the feast will be prepared in your absense.  Go, deliever the message."  The servants seek out guests and deliver the message.  Some of the guests object, saying, "Did you see this feast so that I may know it's true?"  When the servants answer "no" then those guests answer,  "then I will not come to the feast."

If you can't think for yourself no wonder you believe in a god!

Regurgitating the bible isn't going to get you anywhere here. Yes, we know you assumed the bible was true from the outset. Do you do that with every other supernatural claim that you hear?

The problem with this analogy you are trying to draw is that dinner feasts are DEMONSTRABLE. Your claim (which you took from the bible) regarding a "Kingdom of God" is NOT demonstrable. So they are absolutely nothing alike. I could draw analogies like this all day long. How gullible are you?

Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6582
  • Darwins +515/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #126 on: June 29, 2013, 12:12:55 PM »
Maybe prayer has been used and abused.
Well, I don't hear Hindus saying that - perhaps it's time to worship Shiva?

However, prayer is a waste of time whether you believe or not. Basically, you are asking some god to change the entire course of universe to suit you, and you admit that you are unworthy.

Quote
All believers know God knows our needs,

But they don't, do they? All believers know is what they themselves want - listen to what you have said you want... Allah, Yahweh, Baal Haddad, Marduk, Elnin, Chemosh, Zeus, Jupiter, Thor, and the 3,000 other gods are simply deaf... or not there. Now, which could it be?

Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Offline jaimehlers

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 4772
  • Darwins +546/-14
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #127 on: June 29, 2013, 12:30:46 PM »
The kingdom of God is like a man that send his servants to gather guests for a feast.  The servants ask, "where is this feast that I may see it and tell it to the others?".   The man replies, "the feast will be prepared in your absense.  Go, deliever the message."  The servants seek out guests and deliver the message.  Some of the guests object, saying, "Did you see this feast so that I may know it's true?"  When the servants answer "no" then those guests answer,  "then I will not come to the feast."
This is a horrible example.  The comparison is badly flawed, since it attempts to compare things which are not at all similar.  We're not talking about actual servants who live with this man, we're talking about people who never met the man in question (and thus don't really know anything about him), don't know where the feast is actually located (so that people could go look), and are in fact passing down a message that they've received from other people, who received it from other people, etc (or else received it through something like telepathy).

It's a lot more like the "emperor with no clothes" scenario, except passed along through word of mouth.  I mean, only the people who actually saw the emperor knew he had no clothes.  As far as everyone else was concerned, his clothes were the finest in the world.  And in this case, nobody's actually seen the 'emperor' to tell whether he has clothes or not.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1413
  • Darwins +25/-102
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #128 on: June 29, 2013, 02:16:34 PM »
Guys I am not allowed to debate.  I cannot force you to believe anything I say.  I can only plant a seed.  God himself must make it grow.  I can clarify anything I've said, but I don't see any questions being asked for clarification.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #129 on: June 30, 2013, 01:07:43 AM »
Guys I am not allowed to debate.  I cannot force you to believe anything I say.  I can only plant a seed.  God himself must make it grow.  I can clarify anything I've said, but I don't see any questions being asked for clarification.

I asked.  And you waffled, and didn't address th point.  Here it is again for you.

How do you suppose he'd go about removing abuse, I wonder?

But he will not judge as one having eyes that cannot see.  He will know his people and he will know how to help them.  And he will help them out of their weaknesses, all those that listen to his voice. 

Sorry, what does that actually mean?  Can you give an example?
It means disobediance comes in many shades and he will look beneath the surface just as he did while on earth.  He will know the heart of a person just like he knew the heart of the criminal crucified next to him.  Although this criminal had the outward appearance of being a bad man, and human rulers had consigned him to death, Jesus told him, "Truly I tell you today, you will be with me in Paradise."  This criminal will be resurrected.  Why?  Because Jesus knew something the human rulers didn't.  If you were that criminal and you are resurrected, would you be willing to try and learn to love?  That is what Jesus will look at.

But that's not what you said.  You said "he knows how to help them" and "he will help them out of their weakness".  And we were looking at this in the context of "how he would remove abuse".  Very easy to move the goalposts when you don't quote the whole exchange.

So - specifically - how will Jesus remove abuse, given that he "will know how to help them"?
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 01:09:29 AM by Anfauglir »
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Add Homonym

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2701
  • Darwins +219/-4
  • Gender: Male
  • I can haz jeezusburger™
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #130 on: June 30, 2013, 02:52:45 AM »

There will be no more curse.  The rains will come in it's appointed times and the earth will produce an abundance, and the greedy will not snatch food from the poor.  The desert will sprout with streams and there will be no more sea.  And if you require more room, raise your eyes to the heavens.  This is God's creation and we are a crowning achievement.  All the heavens declare the glory of our God, are we content to view it from afar?  That is why it is said, "he has put eternity in their hearts."


This seems like the Islamic version of heaven, where there is lots of light, date trees, food, and rivers of wine. (Also lots of women). It's not very well thought out. There would be nothing to do, and no point in doing it. What you are describing is a state of sedentary bullshit. If there is automatically enough food, then people just sit around, making thatch houses and flogging the tribal dog. It's the horrendous conditions that we subject ourselves to, during overpopulation, war, and settling lands that are inhospitable, that have created this "crowning achievement". According to the Bible, God's "crowning achievement" was Adam; a naked guy, who knew nothing.

It's a nice idea that this Christian land will have nobody greedy in it, but why will the Christians there, not be greedy? The ones I know, seem to keep their $400,000 houses, while Africans starve. Maybe some Christians are less obnoxious than those who have rejected Christ, but surely, if there is a magical spell, which makes Christians non-greedy after the resurrection, it could also be cast upon atheists. We could all live in this harmonious land, whether we believe the crap in the Bible or not.

Jst, the fact that there are so many ways to interpret what the bible wants you to do--and therefore so many different kinds of Christians-- should tell you something.

It tells me that many people want to know God.


That's not the way it happens, though. People start off not knowing anything, and then life kicks the shit out of them. They then get threatened with Hellfire, and start looking at the Bible because of peer group pressure and fear. I remember seeing the Bible as a child, as one big abusive threat. My fear was of hell; if it were not for that, I would have ignored the Bible, utterly. Popular culture is full of horror movies that feed off the Christian world view, of demons, possession, and curses from God, if you don't bend to his will, and be governed by the scary preacher man, then you burn.

I have zero interest in being resurrected into a world, where "The rains will come in it's appointed times", and people walk around in white robes, carrying lambs.
Humans, in general, don't waste any opportunity to be unfathomably stupid - Dr Cynical.

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1845
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #131 on: June 30, 2013, 10:27:04 AM »
Guys I am not allowed to debate.  I cannot force you to believe anything I say.  I can only plant a seed.  God himself must make it grow.  I can clarify anything I've said, but I don't see any questions being asked for clarification.

How do you know you're not allowed to debate? You just said you "don't know" the things in which you speak. So why are you speaking about them? You keep contradicting yourself. On the other hand you need to read your bible. 1 Peter 3:15 and Jude 1:3 should be starters. Your bible commands you to defend your beliefs. Besides, if they can't stand up to rational scrutiny, why would you want to maintain them?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1413
  • Darwins +25/-102
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #132 on: June 30, 2013, 01:22:32 PM »
But that's not what you said.  You said "he knows how to help them" and "he will help them out of their weakness".  And we were looking at this in the context of "how he would remove abuse".  Very easy to move the goalposts when you don't quote the whole exchange.

So - specifically - how will Jesus remove abuse, given that he "will know how to help them"?

No, I did leave you to draw some of your own conclusions.  I apologize.

Like Satan, there will be those that just refuse to accept this divine arrangement.  These will not remain in the kingdom.  Satan and his angels will be bound for the 1000 years so they no longer present an obstacle.  Every obstacle will be removed.  For those that don't reject it, perfection will not be something that happens instantly or without willing participation.  Those that willingly participate will gradually be lifted to perfection by the removal of imperfections, including the tendancy to do what is selfish.

Concering my mention of Jesus knowing how to help us please let me use an illustration.  Let's say there are two children from two different families.  Both of these children begin acting out.  One parent simply punishes the child for the bad behavior.  The other parent will talk to the child and do their best to find out why the child is acting out and will work to remove the root cause of the misbehavior.  This is the personality type Jesus displayed while on earth.

But unlike the latter parent Jesus already knows the things that cause us to stumble.  All causes for stumbling will be removed.  Abusers that willingly participate will learn not to be abusers and will not abuse.  Those that refuse to participate will be removed from the kingdom and will be returned to their state before resurrection.  They will sleep in death forever.

Quote from: Add Homonym
There would be nothing to do, and no point in doing it. What you are describing is a state of sedentary bullshit.

My God does not approve of a sedentary lifestyle.  It is he that provided man with the satisfaction of accomplishment.  He provided the first human pair with worthwhile work to do.  His children today have work to do.  During the 1000 years there will be work to do.  For one, the earth his not going to turn itself into a paradise.  Those resurrected must be welcomed and instructed.  It's not going to all be chaos or occur without our participation.  There will be new divine instructions that will need to be learned.    There will be no lack of things to do.

What will be different is that people will no longer work their fingers to the bone only for the necessities of life.  Work will be done for the betterment of mankind and less time will be spent just trying to survive and continue existing. 

Quote from: Add Homonym
According to the Bible, God's "crowning achievement" was Adam; a naked guy, who knew nothing.

The achievement in man is not soely what he was but in what he could become.  We all still enter this world naked and knowing nothing.  Look at what man has accomplished while in disobediance.  What could he become if people weren't around to take a good invention and use it for evil?  What if man could focus it's attention on something other than making weapons?  Medicine?  Survivial?  And what if all mankind was united?  All of those resources could be refocused.  How much quicker could we advance?

Quote from: Add Homonym
It's a nice idea that this Christian land will have nobody greedy in it, but why will the Christians there, not be greedy? The ones I know, seem to keep their $400,000 houses, while Africans starve. Maybe some Christians are less obnoxious than those who have rejected Christ, but surely, if there is a magical spell, which makes Christians non-greedy after the resurrection, it could also be cast upon atheists. We could all live in this harmonious land, whether we believe the crap in the Bible or not.

There will be no magic spell.  If God wanted us under a magic spell he would have done so from the beginning.  Some Christians may have a lot of adjustments to make while some that died as atheists may not have as many to make.  Those that say they worship my God but do not are worse off than unbelievers.

Quote
whether we believe the crap in the Bible or not.

Disbelief will be one of those obstacles that are removed.  But the words of God will endure forever, lest the times be repeated.

Quote
That's not the way it happens, though. People start off not knowing anything, and then life kicks the shit out of them. They then get threatened with Hellfire, and start looking at the Bible because of peer group pressure and fear. I remember seeing the Bible as a child, as one big abusive threat. My fear was of hell; if it were not for that, I would have ignored the Bible, utterly. Popular culture is full of horror movies that feed off the Christian world view, of demons, possession, and curses from God, if you don't bend to his will, and be governed by the scary preacher man, then you burn.

The Christ warned that many would come in his name and would mislead many and he did so on many occasions.  These warnings were repeated by his apostles also on many occasions.  These warnings are given today by every denomination.  If ever there was a message God wants us to hear, it is this one and that of his sons sacrifice. 

If ever Jesus was a scary preacher man it is was only to those in religous authority that sought to condemn him.  This relates to my statment that those that say they worship my God but do not are worse off than unbelievers.  If they sought to condemn even the Christ will they not also try to condemn all of us?  We should not listen to the voice of those that are of their ilk.

The words of my God are not about eternal punishment but rather about love and sacrifice.

Quote from: median
How do you know you're not allowed to debate? You just said you "don't know" the things in which you speak. So why are you speaking about them? You keep contradicting yourself. On the other hand you need to read your bible. 1 Peter 3:15 and Jude 1:3 should be starters. Your bible commands you to defend your beliefs. Besides, if they can't stand up to rational scrutiny, why would you want to maintain them?

So you would try to trick me in the same manner Satan tried to trick the Christ.  Your answer is written at 1 Timothy 6:20, 21.



« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 01:24:20 PM by Jstwebbrowsing »
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Online nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6411
  • Darwins +829/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #133 on: June 30, 2013, 03:17:17 PM »
Boy, that post was so full of contradictions I don't even know where to start. It reminds me of the questions I used to ask as a JW kid, and the bogus and unsatisfying responses that passed for answers.

1) Satan and his angels were created by god, so why are they bad? Where did the impulse to do evil come from, if not from whatever god put into them when he created them? If god is so wonderful, why would Satan go against him--and how could Satan convince any other angels to join him? And if the only thing they wanted to do was be different or separate from god, why was that evil?

2)Why did god put stuff in the way of humans to cause us to stumble, leading to the need for Jesus to come and fix things? This is not a good plan, no matter how you look at it.

3)Why will god only stop Satan for 1000 years? Why not just get rid of Satan entirely? And why allow Satan to eff with humans at all? What possible benefit is there to letting Satan screw with the earth? It's like letting Satan torture Job, just because.

4)What "worthwhile work" did god give Adam and Eve to do? Name the animals, eat fruit, worship god, and have sex?  For that they needed the most complex brains on the planet? They were fruitarians surrounded by tame, peaceful animals--that is the epitome of a sedentary lifestyle. They needed no weapons or cooking fires; they did not even need clothing or shelter. I can't figure out why there were all these animals around-- just to look at and play with? What possible work was there to do in a perfect paradise? In a few years, if they had not screwed up, they would have been fat and bored out of their blank slate minds. They would have had to invent drugs and internet porn, and gotten themselves kicked out anyway.

5)The new improved earthly paradise will require farming, to feed all the newly billions of resurrected people. The earth will have to support far more people than exist now on the planet, but there will be no death. Will new babies keep on being born indefinitely? Will we produce waste? Where will it go? What will be the energy sources? Will they produce pollution and waste? What happens when there are so many people that we are just standing around, shoulder to shoulder? Will we praise Jehovah that we each have one square foot of space?

6) If there is no death, there is no killing of animals. No meat, then. What do the carnivores eat? Do the animals keep on reproducing indefinitely, too? Do they produce waste? I hope you are starting to see some problems here with your smelly, crowded paradise.

7) Once you started talking about inventions and the need for medical science, you lost me completely.  A godly paradise with eternal life, but the need for people to invent new things and develop medical advances seems a lot like, well, earth now.  Only with nobody ever dying. So, we should bow down and worship god and believe all these silly things so god will create an earth like what we are creating already without god?   Kinda like the way things are going with medical science well, now. Only way more crowded. 

Sounds like it's worth the sacrifices to me. &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline SkyWriting

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
  • Darwins +9/-75
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #134 on: June 30, 2013, 04:59:29 PM »
1) Satan and his angels were created by god, so why are they bad?

It seem that God prefers the company of independent thinkers over mindless slaves. I dunno why. 

Offline pianodwarf

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 4356
  • Darwins +208/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • Je bois ton lait frappé
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #135 on: June 30, 2013, 05:15:42 PM »
1) Satan and his angels were created by god, so why are they bad?

It seem that God prefers the company of independent thinkers over mindless slaves. I dunno why.

The only way that that response works is if you assume that Satan and all the other angels who chose to join him are breathtakingly, stupefyingly, mind-bogglingly stupid.  You would have to be to challenge a being whom you know is both omniscient and omnipotent (and thus utterly invincible).  It would be like thinking you could destroy a tank by repeatedly hitting it with a feather duster.

Even if you're willing to make such a concession, it only brings us to the next question: why did Yahweh create so many beings who would be so stupid as to think they could defeat him?
[On how kangaroos could have gotten back to Australia after the flood]:  Don't kangaroos skip along the surface of the water? --Kenn

Offline Graybeard

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6582
  • Darwins +515/-18
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #136 on: June 30, 2013, 05:56:05 PM »
I have not been given authority to correct or debate organizational doctrines of any religion.

You do not need any authority - you have a right to speak freely and to hold such opinions as you see fit. You are not an automaton, you are a human being. Cast off your chains. Be yourself not what they have made you.
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”

Online nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6411
  • Darwins +829/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #137 on: June 30, 2013, 06:48:51 PM »
1) Satan and his angels were created by god, so why are they bad?

It seem that God prefers the company of independent thinkers over mindless slaves. I dunno why.

That still does not answer the question.

God created life forms that survive without light or air, life forms that get their nourishment from the sun, and life forms that regenerate missing limbs. He created naked mole rats, who can chew through concrete, and cockroaches that can survive nuclear radiation and will someday take over the earth. 

Doesn't god have the ability to create life forms who will not become evil? And why the heck does god need company?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1413
  • Darwins +25/-102
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #138 on: June 30, 2013, 07:38:50 PM »
Quote from: nogodsforme
1) Satan and his angels were created by god, so why are they bad? Where did the impulse to do evil come from, if not from whatever god put into them when he created them? If god is so wonderful, why would Satan go against him--and how could Satan convince any other angels to join him? And if the only thing they wanted to do was be different or separate from god, why was that evil?

Because one cannot choose to do good without the real possibility of doing bad.  All you have to do to know why it was evil is to look at the results.  If that is the world you desire then you are having it and have no complaint coming.

Quote
2)Why did god put stuff in the way of humans to cause us to stumble, leading to the need for Jesus to come and fix things? This is not a good plan, no matter how you look at it.

Adam was not deceived.  He willingly chose disobediance simply because he was presented the option.

Quote
3)Why will god only stop Satan for 1000 years? Why not just get rid of Satan entirely? And why allow Satan to eff with humans at all? What possible benefit is there to letting Satan screw with the earth? It's like letting Satan torture Job, just because.

After the 1000 years he will be loosed for a little while.  After that God will get rid of him entirely.  He is not a permanant fixture.  Until then, the issues he raised that is championed by disobediant humans must be answered.  You desire proof.  He is giving it to us.

Quote
4)What "worthwhile work" did god give Adam and Eve to do? Name the animals, eat fruit, worship god, and have sex?  For that they needed the most complex brains on the planet? They were fruitarians surrounded by tame, peaceful animals--that is the epitome of a sedentary lifestyle. They needed no weapons or cooking fires; they did not even need clothing or shelter. I can't figure out why there were all these animals around-- just to look at and play with? What possible work was there to do in a perfect paradise? In a few years, if they had not screwed up, they would have been fat and bored out of their blank slate minds. They would have had to invent drugs and internet porn, and gotten themselves kicked out anyway.

For the time, the couple's work was to tend the garden (farming) and to subdue the earth's creations.  Man also had a tremendous amount to learn about his surroundings.  They would not have been bored.  People are still studying God's earthly creations.  I am talking about the removal of selfishness and the establishement of brotherly love.  If selfishness is required for you not to be bored then you are having your fill now.  Because we are no longer selfish does not mean we will be bored.  Think about what you are saying.  All good things will continue to exist.

Quote
5)The new improved earthly paradise will require farming, to feed all the newly billions of resurrected people. The earth will have to support far more people than exist now on the planet, but there will be no death. Will new babies keep on being born indefinitely? Will we produce waste? Where will it go? What will be the energy sources? Will they produce pollution and waste? What happens when there are so many people that we are just standing around, shoulder to shoulder? Will we praise Jehovah that we each have one square foot of space?

I do not know what will happen after the 1000 years or exactly how things will happen during it.  New revelations will occur.  Already you are demonstrating there will be much to be learned.  There are only a few things I do know.  The earth will not become overfilled.  People will not destroy the earth or each other.  There will be work. 

Quote
6)If there is no death, there is no killing of animals. No meat, then. What do the carnivores eat? Do the animals keep on reproducing indefinitely, too? Do they produce waste? I hope you are starting to see some problems here with your smelly, crowded paradise.

I don't know.  Animals will be different but I don't know how different.  Man was created to have problem solving skills.  You are highlighting the need for such skills will not become obsolete.  God himself will give guidance, but not so much so we have nothing to do, nothing to learn, nor problems to solve.  God did not name the animals for Adam.  Yes, Adam had primitive tasks but it was a primitive earth and he was a primitive man.  But was the starting point, not the ending point.  Advancement is not evil.

Quote
7) Once you started talking about inventions and the need for medical science, you lost me completely.  A godly paradise with eternal life, but the need for people to invent new things and develop medical advances seems a lot like, well, earth now.  Only with nobody ever dying. So, we should bow down and worship god and believe all these silly things so god will create an earth like what we are creating already without god?   Kinda like the way things are going with medical science well, now. Only way more crowded.

You misunderstood.  People will not become sick.  There will be no need for doctors, at least not in the sense that we need them today.  But there is no reason to think that science will be done away with.  There are sciences that don't revolve around keeping people alive.  There may still be medical sciences too, but they would be different.  Paradise does not mean primitive.  That seems to be what you are thinking.  It is the creator's desire for man to create.  That is why man has such desire to do so.  This is one way he was made in God's image.  If God just does everything for man then man would become bored.

Quote from: Graybeard
You do not need any authority - you have a right to speak freely and to hold such opinions as you see fit. You are not an automaton, you are a human being. Cast off your chains. Be yourself not what they have made you.

I do have my opinions, but I keep them as opinions and do not speak them as if I have the authority to decide my opinion is correct.  My opinions are seperated from what I know is true.  I cannot judge beliefs or practices until I know for sure the will of my God because it is not my judgement I use.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Online nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6411
  • Darwins +829/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #139 on: June 30, 2013, 08:41:53 PM »
^^^You obviously know nothing about the history of agriculture, how the domestication of animals happened or basically anything real on this planet. &)

Do you really think that all the plants and animals (and viruses, insects and bacteria) on earth were put here to benefit human beings? Or are you going to try to argue that the things we like (puppies) were put here by god and the things we don't like (mosquitoes with the malaria virus) were put here by Satan?  :o
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline median

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1845
  • Darwins +201/-16
  • Gender: Male
  • Yahweh: Obviously not obvious.
    • Talk Origins
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #140 on: June 30, 2013, 08:48:38 PM »

So you would try to trick me in the same manner Satan tried to trick the Christ.  Your answer is written at 1 Timothy 6:20, 21.

Someone (or a group of people) getting you to ASSUME that what you have read in your bible (regarding Adam/Eve/Satan/God, etc) is accurate, is itself a big trick. I'm sure you reject the other religions in the world, who play this same trick on their kids, yet for some strange reason you find it OK to do it with yours. Why? Why have you sacrificed your rational mind in exchange for merely assuming that ONE particular claimed holy book (out of literally hundreds of them - which you reject) is the one truth?

You don't know that what you've read in the bible is true. You've assumed it. And that's the problem.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1413
  • Darwins +25/-102
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #141 on: June 30, 2013, 08:58:26 PM »
Do you really think that all the plants and animals (and viruses, insects and bacteria) on earth were put here to benefit human beings?  Or are you going to try to argue that the things we like (puppies) were put here by god and the things we don't like (mosquitoes with the malaria virus) were put here by Satan?  :o

You seem like you are getting angry and it is causing you to make wrong assumptions.  I do not want to make you angry.  We should let it rest for now.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Online nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6411
  • Darwins +829/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #142 on: June 30, 2013, 09:31:50 PM »
Do you really think that all the plants and animals (and viruses, insects and bacteria) on earth were put here to benefit human beings?  Or are you going to try to argue that the things we like (puppies) were put here by god and the things we don't like (mosquitoes with the malaria virus) were put here by Satan?  :o

You seem like you are getting angry and it is causing you to make wrong assumptions.  I do not want to make you angry.  We should let it rest for now.

I am not angry. When I am angry it will be very clear.  8)

I am trying to understand your worldview and where your ideas are coming from. You do not seem to have a good grasp of basic biology, basic human prehistory or common sense reality. You make statements as if you do know these things, but the are incredibly inaccurate.

More to the point, you are not even internally consistent. What I mean is that you frequently contradict your own statements. That leads me to think that you don't really know what you believe, but are repeating something you have been told. When you try to mesh what you have been told about god, the world, and so forth with common sense reality, you end up sounding like you are making up stuff as you go along.

Do you even read your previous postings? You talk about all the people who have ever lived being brought back to life, but there being no overcrowding.... :o
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline SkyWriting

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 597
  • Darwins +9/-75
  • User posts join approval queueModerated
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #143 on: June 30, 2013, 10:40:25 PM »
my mistake 
« Last Edit: June 30, 2013, 10:42:00 PM by SkyWriting »

Offline Anfauglir

  • Global Moderator
  • ******
  • Posts: 6198
  • Darwins +408/-5
  • Gender: Male
Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #144 on: July 01, 2013, 04:41:05 AM »
But that's not what you said.  You said "he knows how to help them" and "he will help them out of their weakness".  And we were looking at this in the context of "how he would remove abuse".  Very easy to move the goalposts when you don't quote the whole exchange.

So - specifically - how will Jesus remove abuse, given that he "will know how to help them"?

No, I did leave you to draw some of your own conclusions.  I apologize.

Like Satan, there will be those that just refuse to accept this divine arrangement.  These will not remain in the kingdom.  Satan and his angels will be bound for the 1000 years so they no longer present an obstacle.  Every obstacle will be removed.  For those that don't reject it, perfection will not be something that happens instantly or without willing participation.  Those that willingly participate will gradually be lifted to perfection by the removal of imperfections, including the tendancy to do what is selfish.

Concering my mention of Jesus knowing how to help us please let me use an illustration.  Let's say there are two children from two different families.  Both of these children begin acting out.  One parent simply punishes the child for the bad behavior.  The other parent will talk to the child and do their best to find out why the child is acting out and will work to remove the root cause of the misbehavior.  This is the personality type Jesus displayed while on earth.

But unlike the latter parent Jesus already knows the things that cause us to stumble.  All causes for stumbling will be removed.  Abusers that willingly participate will learn not to be abusers and will not abuse.   Those that refuse to participate will be removed from the kingdom and will be returned to their state before resurrection.  They will sleep in death forever.

Oh dear - STILL not answering the question.  Closest you have come is that bit I have bolded.

What does that entail, please?  What lessons are going to be taught by Jesus?

(Why is it so hard to get a believer to answer a direct question?)
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?