Author Topic: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?  (Read 12060 times)

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Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #87 on: June 26, 2013, 12:59:01 PM »

Your parents deserve all the credit at minimum.  And i doubt you'd last long without people who love you for no reason at all.
When you are born you are pretty worthless.  Assuming you start working at 16, that's 16 years of being a burden on society.
I don't see where you should get any credit at all.  Without good training by selfless others, you'r screwed.

My wife teaches special ed.   With the wrong parents, you are a mess.

Could you get anymore illogical? Once again, you've attempted to change the subject. That is called the fallacy of a Red Herring. Are you even capable of admitting your errors? Talk about hubris...

The example YOU brought up was in the context of an adult, not a child. MY point, was that YOU get all the credit for YOUR doings. How fucking dare you miss represent my argument. Ass...


Btw, no, you are quite wrong. My parents DO NOT get all the credit. They get the shame of being massive fuckups and screwing up their children big time. WE take the credit for righting the wrongs.

Doesn't your bible talk about humility? Perhaps you should be practicing that here by admitting when you're wrong on this forum.

If you point out my errors, that should satisfy you.   Other readers will agree, or they won't. 
It's much less likely that I'll agree with you.  People rarely admit they are wrong about anything.
It's a blindness that everyone has about their own failings.

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #88 on: June 26, 2013, 01:30:36 PM »
No, parents don't necessarily get all the credit for raising someone.  For one thing, not all parents are good at the job of raising children.  For another, even if someone has exemplary parents, the fact remains that they still have to absorb and ingrain all the lessons that they're taught.  So even in the best possible circumstances, children still get some of the credit for turning out alright, and in most, they get more.

It doesn't matter WHO raises kids.  They get support from other till they turn 21.  Some get cut off sooner.
All food and clothing, money teaching.....everything they are is from others who give with little out of love
for family or strangers.  The "humanist" taking credit for only himself to credit is a blind ingrate.
I suppose you think that children are nothing but what others put into them, then?  Fortunately, this is not actually true.  Just as a student has to put in effort to learn, even from a good teacher, so must a child put in effort of their own to turn out well, even with good parents.

Indeed, one of the biggest problems in society is that most people don't realize this.  They think that it's all a one-way street, as you apparently do, and thus don't realize that you have to enlist the cooperation of the child in order to be successful.

Offline Dante

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #89 on: June 26, 2013, 02:42:10 PM »
No, parents don't necessarily get all the credit for raising someone.  For one thing, not all parents are good at the job of raising children.  For another, even if someone has exemplary parents, the fact remains that they still have to absorb and ingrain all the lessons that they're taught.  So even in the best possible circumstances, children still get some of the credit for turning out alright, and in most, they get more.

It doesn't matter WHO raises kids.  They get support from other till they turn 21.  Some get cut off sooner.
All food and clothing, money teaching.....everything they are is from others who give with little out of love
for family or strangers.  The "humanist" taking credit for only himself to credit is a blind ingrate.

So whose fault is if the child turns out bad?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #90 on: June 26, 2013, 02:45:22 PM »
START HERE:


 

For those of you who were around at the time, the apologist "AlexBP" started a thread back in 2010 in an attempt to respond to this video. His claim was basically that the video-maker was misinterpreting the bible and that the passages cited therein were not to be taken literally (i.e. - as metaphor) - to which those critical thinkers who responded did so by basically calling bullshit. Anyways, the question still remains:

Christians: Why do you refuse to obey Jesus when he has called you to do the things listed in the video (i.e. - the things in the bible)? Please note that in your attempt to respond to this we will be anticipating the "out of context" or "misinterpretation" charge. No, we aren't misinterpreting the bible. You are. But let's have the debate anyways!

I think this is a very thought provoking post.  I will try to answer with my opinions.

1.  War.

Some Chritians refuse, sometimes on pain of death, to go to war.

2.  Sell everything. 

Some Christians have done this, among them are evangalists that spend their lives in underdeveloped countries.

3.  Abandon your family.

Jesus himself did not abandon his family because his family followed him.  Had they not followed they would have been abandoned.  And it does not say "abandon".  It says "leave".  Children are also told to "leave" their parents and be united with a spouse.  I don't think either means to entirely abandon.  I mean if you have to then yes.  Many Christians have done this because family was unwilling to accept the Christianity.

4. Self-Mutilation.

I have wrestled with this myself.  I think this may be literally meant.  However it is not presented as the only option.  The apostle instructed Christians to "beat" their flesh into submission.  If I can stop my eye from sinning then I'm not going to poke it out.  If you can't then you are better off without it.  But I imagine most Christians cease their worship before doing such a thing.  In other words, they choose disobediance and their worship become null and void.   

However I think this must be tempered with the Bible's teaching that noone can be perfect, although it is the goal for which they strive.  The only way to absolutely prevent yourself from sinning would be to kill yourself, but that too would be a sin so some balance must be maintained.  If you slip up and make a mistake then that is one thing.  That I think is covered by Jesus' own sacrifice.  But if it's a sin that you just can't rid yourself of then it really would be better to cut off the offending member, if doing so would actually prevent the sin.

5.  Drinking poison.

The Bible does say that cerain signs would accompany Christians.  However, it also says this, "Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, they shall be done away; whether there be tongues, they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, it shall be done away.......But now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; and the greatest of these is love. (1 Corinthians 13:8,13)

I am certainly no great authority on the Bible.  But these are my thoughts.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #91 on: June 26, 2013, 03:31:18 PM »

Tell us, what, exactly does God do that pathetic medical science simply will never be able to do?

God gives a peace and understanding than men do not.

You mean He tells you not to complain? He tells you that your lot in life is ordained and there is nothing you can do about it? In fact, He does nothing, does He?
RELIGION, n. A daughter of Hope and Fear, explaining to Ignorance the nature of the Unknowable. Ambrose Bierce

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #92 on: June 26, 2013, 04:36:54 PM »
Jst, the fact that there are so many ways to interpret what the bible wants you to do--and therefore so many different kinds of Christians-- should tell you something.

Also, it is not clear what is meant literally and what is meant to be metaphorical, poetic or symbolic. Would you like to live in a society that interpreted everything in the bible literally, and was governed by Christianity-based laws?

If you commit the sin of lying, they cut out your tongue. If you commit the sin of stealing, they cut off your hand. If you commit the sin of adultery, well, you get the idea. For repeat offenses, stoning to death. For blasphemy or apostasy, burning at the stake.

Welcome to the Middle Ages. Welcome to the Taliban.  :(
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline William

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #93 on: June 26, 2013, 06:16:41 PM »
I think you are biased in your opinion of me and have an agenda to deny giving me credit.
Well lets see then ...


Just my own personal experience here in Milwaukee.
My doctor is interested in giving me drugs for any problems. Little else.
Have you been dodging the doctors questions and talking in tangents - like you do on this forum?


I have permanent scars on my face and across my head because the first 4 doctors misdiagnosed the lesions on my face.
The 5th doctor said...."That is clearly shingles, I wish you had seen me sooner to avoid scars"
Doctor #1 lost the shingles test he sent out and didn't follow up.
Sounds like inexperienced people - not a problem with Medical Science.
God did nothing.


My wife was under constant daily care and the doctors knew about the break and didn't notice the infection
in the bone so she lost her leg. Would you like a picture?  She was an accountant at a major US hospital.
I'm sorry to hear that.
Again it sounds like incompetent people.
What you say is an admission that Medical Science could've helped but didn't get a chance.
Again, God did nothing.


My brother received counseling.  He killed himself.
I'm sorry to hear that.
How is this related to Medical Science?
Again, God did nothing.


My step-son received counseling. He started his 2 real job this week. 
The first lasted 2 months.  He's 25.
I don't see a connection between this and Medical Science.
Again, God did nothing.
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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #94 on: June 26, 2013, 06:41:26 PM »

If you point out my errors, that should satisfy you.   Other readers will agree, or they won't. 
It's much less likely that I'll agree with you.  People rarely admit they are wrong about anything.
It's a blindness that everyone has about their own failings.

First, please don't tell me what should or shouldn't satisfy me. You may have the idea that an authoritarian dictator rules your life from on high (influencing your attempted commands toward others), but I reject that idea and the presumptions from which it stems.

Second, whether or not people rarely admit their errors is aside from the point (and aside from the question I asked). Admitting one's errors is a sign of maturity, open-mindedness, and awareness. The case and point here is that your arguments for belief in God are irrational (i.e. - you are using logical fallacies). Therefore, you should admit these fallacies (by perhaps educating yourself regarding them first) and either retract the arguments or amend them.

Trying to persist in fallacious reasoning only displays stubbornness, arrogance, and personal dishonesty.
« Last Edit: June 26, 2013, 06:44:13 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline BigV

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #95 on: June 27, 2013, 07:17:58 AM »
Christians: Why do you refuse to obey Jesus when he has called you to do the things listed in the video (i.e. - the things in the bible)? Please note that in your attempt to respond to this we will be anticipating the "out of context" or "misinterpretation" charge. No, we aren't misinterpreting the bible. You are. But let's have the debate anyways!
Sure, let's.  I'll use Marshall's Titles.

Commandment 1: You should love your enemies
Marshall quite justifiably draws this conclusion, but then asks the red herring, "So why does America have a military?"  Having a military does not imply one must hate (or "not love") enemies.  A military is a necessary security requirement for most nations; its mere existence does not imply any love or hate of another.  As with many things, it's not the thing itself but how it's used.  When and how a military can act in ways that still uphold love for others is central to the discussion of just war theory.

Well, having a military means that a given country does not turn the other cheek or forgives those who hurt the citizens of the county.  Just war theory is not in the Bible.
Commandment 2: You must sell everything
Matthew 19: 21-24 - Verse 21 does not say "If you want to go to heaven, " it says, "If you want to be perfect."  21-24 is the setup to Jesus' teaching.  The actual teaching is found in verse 26.  Basically, the rich man in the story wants to earn his way into Heaven, and Jesus responds by highlighting exactly why humans are not perfect enough to earn their own salvation; which plays into the much larger theological point of redemption and salvation through Christ that forms the entire backbone of Christianity.  But why go into that when we can just quote mine?

Luke 14:33 - This verse is in the context of a passage about recognizing the potential costs/benefits of discipleship and recognizing it as an all-in or all-out proposition.  Jesus is stating God must be first, above families, possessions, etc., and thus the disciples must be willing to give those things up as central priorities if they want to follow Him.  This is reflected in the numerous analyses of this chapter found online (I'm not going to regurgitate it due to length.)  He does not say each possession must be literally sold and/or given away.

Matthew 6:19, 24 - Again, this verse is about priorities.  This verse summarizes the 18 verses before, where Jesus is comparing doing good things for Earthly recognition to doing them because they're good.  Jesus is saying that God must come first, not that no possessions can be kept.  This is reiterated in verse 24, when Jesus says money should not be served as a "master."  Again, He is not saying His disciples can never touch money; He's saying they can't serve money because, as Marshall rightly points out, wealth is a deceitful master.

Luke 12:33 - Jesus is again talking about priorities, this time with respect to trusting God, as evidenced in verses 22-32, which in turn are based on the premise in verse 21, which specifically identifies the target audience as someone who is pursuing earthly possessions while ignoring duties towards God, which of course is the moral to the parable cautioning against greed for Earthly possessions to the exclusion of God as expressed in verse 15, which was a response to the ignorant question in verse 13 that did not get the entire point Jesus was trying to make in verse 1-12.  Now, I won't accuse this verse of being "out of context," but I will say that it's impossible to understand this verse properly without recognizing the dependencies noted above, plus the verse after it, plus the second half of the verse (Marshall only quoted half).

The point being, of course, that someone whose trust is in God does not need to worry about possessions, and very well could sell all of them without fear as long as they have faith in God.  Nowhere in that chapter does Jesus identify that act as necessary for salvation.

Wellp that's enough to generate a half dozen responses.  It should be plenty to get us started.  I'm off to bed.

Notice how you are actually contradicting Jesus with your response to Luke 14:33.  In fact, Jesus does tell you to sell all of your possessions in Luke 12:33 and allegedly, this is is exactly what the first Christians were doing (by sharing everything and having no own posessions, as Acts 4:33 tells us).

Note also that Jesus told the rich man to sell all of his possessions in Matt. 19:21 in order for him to be perfect, as all are required to be (Matt. 5:48).

If to be perfect, one must sell their possessions, then Christians must sell their possessions.   

Regarding 'salvation', you are wrong again, with all due respect.

Matt. 19:23 Then Jesus said to his disciples, “I tell you the truth, it will be hard for a rich person to enter the kingdom of heaven!

These words Jesus said after the rich young man walked away, refusing to sell all his possessions and giving them to the poor.  Why would Jesus say this if it was perfectly fine to keep everything enter the kingdom?  As many Christians today believe?
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 08:34:39 AM by BigV »

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #96 on: June 27, 2013, 07:42:56 AM »

If you point out my errors, that should satisfy you.   Other readers will agree, or they won't. 
It's much less likely that I'll agree with you.  People rarely admit they are wrong about anything.
It's a blindness that everyone has about their own failings.

First, please don't tell me what should or shouldn't satisfy me. You may have the idea that an authoritarian dictator rules your life from on high (influencing your attempted commands toward others), but I reject that idea and the presumptions from which it stems.

 Since I've made no such claims.....end of point.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 08:11:23 AM by SkyWriting »

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #97 on: June 27, 2013, 07:53:23 AM »
God did nothing.
Again, God did nothing.
Again, God did nothing.

We are not in heaven.  This place is not heaven.  People keep assuming we are walking with God in paradise.
We are not. 

As you can see below, things are not chummy between God and us. 

" 23 So the LORD God banished them from the Garden of Eden,
and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he
 had been made. 24 After sending them out, the LORD God
stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden."

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #98 on: June 27, 2013, 07:58:47 AM »
No, parents don't necessarily get all the credit for raising someone.  For one thing, not all parents are good at the job of raising children.  For another, even if someone has exemplary parents, the fact remains that they still have to absorb and ingrain all the lessons that they're taught.  So even in the best possible circumstances, children still get some of the credit for turning out alright, and in most, they get more.

It doesn't matter WHO raises kids.  They get support from other till they turn 21.  Some get cut off sooner.
All food and clothing, money teaching.....everything they are is from others who give with little out of love
for family or strangers.  The "humanist" taking credit for only himself to credit is a blind ingrate.

So whose fault is if the child turns out bad?

Who's fault is it if a child dies.   Same person.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #99 on: June 27, 2013, 08:06:46 AM »

Tell us, what, exactly does God do that pathetic medical science simply will never be able to do?

God gives a peace and understanding than men do not.

You mean He tells you not to complain? He tells you that your lot in life is ordained and there is nothing you can do about it? In fact, He does nothing, does He?

The ordained bit is just the old time travel conundrum.  If you know your future, can you change it, or are you destined to live it out anyway.   It's a tired old Sci-Fi exploit.   Not a spiritual mystery.

(-answering your question-)
He tells us to trust in Him for the long haul.   He may have very huge plans for your life.
If you choose to trust God, you get the pleasure of His company now, and again after your body dies.
Once you are there, everything is possible.   So all earthly problems are just dust in the wind.
Right now, they may seem like everything.  Even suffering may seem like a big deal now. 
But it will hardly even be a memory.
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 08:10:45 AM by SkyWriting »

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #100 on: June 27, 2013, 08:17:45 AM »
No, parents don't necessarily get all the credit for raising someone.  For one thing, not all parents are good at the job of raising children.  For another, even if someone has exemplary parents, the fact remains that they still have to absorb and ingrain all the lessons that they're taught.  So even in the best possible circumstances, children still get some of the credit for turning out alright, and in most, they get more.

It doesn't matter WHO raises kids.  They get support from other till they turn 21.  Some get cut off sooner.
All food and clothing, money teaching.....everything they are is from others who give with little out of love
for family or strangers.  The "humanist" taking credit for only himself to credit is a blind ingrate.
I suppose you think that children are nothing but what others put into them, then?  Fortunately, this is not actually true.  Just as a student has to put in effort to learn, even from a good teacher, so must a child put in effort of their own to turn out well, even with good parents.

Indeed, one of the biggest problems in society is that most people don't realize this.  They think that it's all a one-way street, as you apparently do, and thus don't realize that you have to enlist the cooperation of the child in order to be successful.

Some of my 7 grandkids are having a hard time with life and others have full college academic scholarship.  One has abandoned her child on mom and mom has turned her completely around and improved her verbal skills far above her classmates. 
« Last Edit: June 27, 2013, 08:20:06 AM by SkyWriting »

Offline William

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #101 on: June 27, 2013, 09:13:39 AM »
We are not in heaven.  This place is not heaven.  People keep assuming we are walking with God in paradise.
We are not. 

As you can see below, things are not chummy between God and us. 

Hehee  :laugh: nice attempt at excusiology.  Jesus says you are completely wrong:

Quote
John 14:23  Jesus replied, "If a man loves me, he will keep my word. My Father will love him, and we will come to him, and make our home with him."

And before you tell me that's only an inner 'personal' relationship with God, not something that validates expectations of interventions from God to meet the needs of people or actively respond to their requests (for magic), here are a quick few more dramatic examples:

  • Manna from heaven - like 40 years worth  :o  - Exodus 16
  • Paul made Elymas go temporarily blind to prove a point for God - Acts 13:6-12
  • Peter and John made a lame man "rise up and walk" - Acts 3:1-10
  • Paul healed a cripple by shouting at him to: "Stand up on your feet!" - Acts 14:8-18

So you see, regardless of God being cranky with Adam and Eve for listening to the talking snake and succumbing to the natural curiosity He put into their makeup (in all His wisdom), He's apparently still happy to get involved to help us out in quite visible ways.  Been to Lourdes yet?

Quote
discarded crutches seen on the left side of the grotto, these are apparently left by the devotees who were cured of their disabilities upon visiting the place

http://renz15.wordpress.com/2013/03/28/pilgrimage-to-our-lady-of-lourdes-grotto-in-san-jode-del-monte-bulacan/




 
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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #102 on: June 27, 2013, 10:20:37 AM »

 Since I've made no such claims.....end of point.

Is that all your going to do here - dodge every tough theological question asked or comment made? It doesn't seem that you're really interested in whether or not your beliefs are actually true.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #103 on: June 27, 2013, 10:23:51 AM »
He tells us to trust in Him for the long haul.   

Please demonstrate (not just claim) how you know "He" (Yahweh) told you anything.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #104 on: June 27, 2013, 11:44:49 AM »
We are not in heaven.  This place is not heaven.  People keep assuming we are walking with God in paradise.
We are not. 
I certainly don't assume that.  But one of us here is assuming that there is an all-powerful, all-knowing, all-loving sentient entity out there somewhere that gives enough of a damn about humanity as to punish it for ill-defined reasons.
Quote
As you can see below, things are not chummy between God and us. 

" 23 So the LORD God banished them from the Garden of Eden,
and he sent Adam out to cultivate the ground from which he
 had been made. 24 After sending them out, the LORD God
stationed mighty cherubim to the east of the Garden of Eden."
I see a quote from a book describing an asshole kicking his buddy out of his house for no good reason and setting up bodyguards to make sure his buddy can never get back in, and to assure that any differences or misunderstanding between the two can never be resolved.  Someone's in that scenario is being an evil douche, and it ain't Adam.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Online jaimehlers

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #105 on: June 27, 2013, 12:52:46 PM »
Some of my 7 grandkids are having a hard time with life and others have full college academic scholarship.  One has abandoned her child on mom and mom has turned her completely around and improved her verbal skills far above her classmates.
Good for them.

But that doesn't counter the point I raised.  Yes, it's important, even essential, for children to have good teachers and caregivers (which, you might note, I never suggested was not the case).  But some of that has to come from the child too.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #106 on: June 27, 2013, 01:09:27 PM »
Jst, the fact that there are so many ways to interpret what the bible wants you to do--and therefore so many different kinds of Christians-- should tell you something.

It tells me that many people want to know God.

Also, it is not clear what is meant literally and what is meant to be metaphorical, poetic or symbolic. Would you like to live in a society that interpreted everything in the bible literally, and was governed by Christianity-based laws?

If you commit the sin of lying, they cut out your tongue. If you commit the sin of stealing, they cut off your hand. If you commit the sin of adultery, well, you get the idea. For repeat offenses, stoning to death. For blasphemy or apostasy, burning at the stake.

Welcome to the Middle Ages. Welcome to the Taliban.  :(

I want to live in a society that has Jesus as it's king.  Nothing less will suffice.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #107 on: June 27, 2013, 02:15:07 PM »
It tells me that many people want to know God.
I think it's more likely that many people think they already know God and try to use the Bible (or whatever) to justify their own personal set of beliefs.

Quote from: Jstwebbrowsing
I want to live in a society that has Jesus as it's king.  Nothing less will suffice.
That's a fairly meaningless statement.  It's like saying, "I want to live in a democracy".  It's a good sound bite, but it doesn't explain what they mean by democracy.

For example, do you mean Jesus as the literal, ruling king, or as a metaphorical king?  If the latter, then who would actually rule "in Jesus's name"?  What kind of rules would you accept from them?  How would those rules apply to those who weren't Christians?  And so on.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #108 on: June 27, 2013, 02:53:40 PM »
Quote from: jaimehlers
I think it's more likely that many people think they already know God and try to use the Bible (or whatever) to justify their own personal set of beliefs.

It is very easy for all people to find themselves on similar paths.

Quote
That's a fairly meaningless statement.  It's like saying, "I want to live in a democracy".  It's a good sound bite, but it doesn't explain what they mean by democracy.

For example, do you mean Jesus as the literal, ruling king, or as a metaphorical king?  If the latter, then who would actually rule "in Jesus's name"?  What kind of rules would you accept from them?  How would those rules apply to those who weren't Christians?  And so on.

I apologize.  I didn't understand you wanted me to go further.

Yes I mean as a literal ruling king.  I anticipate that his rulership will reflect the same qualities he displayed while on earth, the qualities of love, justice, and mercy.  I anticipate him to rule as one that laid down his life for his people, one that will take abuse rather than render it.  And he will rule as a king that will never pass away.  Both the Christians and the unbelievers will be taught but one rule.  And that is the rule of love, and mankind will achieve it's greatest success, even unto perfection as the final enemy, death, is destroyed.
Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Dante

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #109 on: June 27, 2013, 03:13:00 PM »
Yes I mean as a literal ruling king.  I anticipate that his rulership will reflect the same qualities he displayed while on earth, the qualities of love, justice, and mercy.  I anticipate him to rule as one that laid down his life for his people, one that will take abuse rather than render it. 

How do you suppose he'd go about removing abuse, I wonder?

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And he will rule as a king that will never pass away.  Both the Christians and the unbelievers will be taught but one rule.  And that is the rule of love, and mankind will achieve it's greatest success, even unto perfection as the final enemy, death, is destroyed.

But I thought your type of believer aleady presumed that everyone lives forever, whether it be in heaven or in hell. Am I wrong on that? Or, if you're talking about an earthly kingdom, do all the people who've already died get to come back? If so, so they get to pick their age, or is it just at the time of mortal death?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #110 on: June 27, 2013, 04:13:39 PM »
Yes I mean as a literal ruling king.  I anticipate that his rulership will reflect the same qualities he displayed while on earth, the qualities of love, justice, and mercy.  I anticipate him to rule as one that laid down his life for his people, one that will take abuse rather than render it. 

How do you suppose he'd go about removing abuse, I wonder?

Thank your for allowing me to expand upon the purposes of my God that he has revealed to an undeserving servant.  He will remove the abuse by removing the abusers from his kingdom.  But he will not judge as one having eyes that cannot see.  He will know his people and he will know how to help them.  And he will help them out of their weaknesses, all those that listen to his voice.  And they will be his people and he will be their king.

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But I thought your type of believer aleady presumed that everyone lives forever, whether it be in heaven or in hell.  Am I wrong on that?

One cannot be in heaven or hell if they are dead.  Death is the opposite and the end of life and the wages of sin is death.  And one that has died has been acquited from his sin and is therefore no longer held accountable.

Quote
If you're talking about an earthly kingdom, do all the people who've already died get to come back? If so, so they get to pick their age, or is it just at the time of mortal death?

The time is coming when all those in memorial tombs will here his voice and come out of their resting places.  Under his rulership the blind will begin seeing, the deaf will begin hearing, the lame will begin walking, and yes, the old will become young.  The tent of God will be with mankind and he will wipe the tears from their eyes.




Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Online nogodsforme

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #111 on: June 27, 2013, 04:31:17 PM »
 Will everyone who has ever lived on earth be alive at the same time? That's a lot of people, how will they eat? Most of them are not Christians. What happens to the pagans, the Muslims, the Buddhists and Mormons? What about us atheists? Do we also have to live under King Jesus' rule? Will people remember what life was like before? Will people still have family relationships and sex,  or will everyone have a memory wipe and be like androids?

I don't like the idea of a king, myself. Kings are dictators. What they say goes, not because it is good, but because they say so. Not everyone will agree with the king, no matter who it is, and the problems will all start again. Remember Lucifer and the angels who rebelled against god in heaven to begin with. Or will everyone be brainwashed so they don't ever rebel? :?

Finally, how is it that you know all this stuff?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Jag

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #112 on: June 27, 2013, 06:15:47 PM »
Remember Lucifer and the angels who rebelled against god in heaven to begin with.

This is generally a conversation stopper; I'm curious to see if it gets addressed by our current group of friendly folks...

I'll hold off on the popcorn for now.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline Jstwebbrowsing

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #113 on: June 28, 2013, 12:54:00 AM »
I am hesitant to answer your questions because with many words come hidden errors and I do not want to tell you a lie.  I am only the lowest of servants.  But I will answer as the Lord wills it.

Quote from: nogodsforme
Will everyone who has ever lived on earth be alive at the same time?

Yes, but not in an absolute sense.  Because,

Quote from: nogodsforme
Not everyone will agree with the king, no matter who it is

Sadly, not everyone will accept God's chosen king.

Quote from: nogodsforme
That's a lot of people, how will they eat?

There will be no more curse.  The rains will come in it's appointed times and the earth will produce an abundance, and the greedy will not snatch food from the poor.  The desert will sprout with streams and there will be no more sea.  And if you require more room, raise your eyes to the heavens.  This is God's creation and we are a crowning achievement.  All the heavens declare the glory of our God, are we content to view it from afar?  That is why it is said, "he has put eternity in their hearts."

Quote from: nogodsforme
Most of them are not Christians. What happens to the pagans, the Muslims, the Buddhists and Mormons? What about us atheists?

Some will come out to a resurrection of life and others will come out to a resurrection of judgement.  The eyes of the blind will be opened and they will see the Christ in his glory.  They will be judged according to their actions.

Quote from: nogodsforme
Will people still have family relationships and sex

Yes.  It is God who created the family and said be fruitful and fill the earth and subdue it.  After this purpose is complete the Christ will hand the kingdom over to his Father.  It has not been revealed to me what comes after, but no heart has conceived the sum of it.

Quote from: nogodsforme
I don't like the idea of a king, myself. Kings are dictators. What they say goes, not because it is good, but because they say so.

I understand.  As it is said, man has dominated man to his own injury.

Quote from: Jag
This is generally a conversation stopper; I'm curious to see if it gets addressed

Quote from: nogodsforme
Will people remember what life was like before?..... Or will everyone be brainwashed so they don't ever rebel?.....Remember Lucifer and the angels who rebelled against god in heaven to begin with....the problems will all start again.

He will not lead them to water and then not let them drink.  The people, and all the angels of heaven will forever remember what life was like before and will remember the suffering that God let them endure out of the richness of his mercy while man was ruling man.  For a thousand years the Christ will rule the earth according to God's own delight.  After man is lifted to perfection, it will then be evident who should forever be the universal sovereign.  The issue will never be raised again and all the people will know that he is Jehovah, the Holy One of Israel.

Quote from: nogodsforme
Finally, how is it that you know all this stuff?

I do not know all these things for which I speak.  Who can know them?  I am neither prophet nor holy man.  I am only a stumbling fool that has been sent with a message.



Ye are my witnesses, saith Jehovah, and my servant whom I have chosen; that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.

Isaiah 43:10

Offline Dante

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #114 on: June 28, 2013, 08:18:04 AM »
Quote
But I thought your type of believer aleady presumed that everyone lives forever, whether it be in heaven or in hell.  Am I wrong on that?

One cannot be in heaven or hell if they are dead.  Death is the opposite and the end of life and the wages of sin is death.  And one that has died has been acquited from his sin and is therefore no longer held accountable.

So why then, do you weep, why do you feel sadness when a loved one of yours passes on? Shouldn't you, and all xians, rejoice?


Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #115 on: June 28, 2013, 08:32:46 AM »
How do you suppose he'd go about removing abuse, I wonder?

But he will not judge as one having eyes that cannot see.  He will know his people and he will know how to help them.  And he will help them out of their weaknesses, all those that listen to his voice. 

Sorry, what does that actually mean?  Can you give an example?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?