Author Topic: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?  (Read 14246 times)

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Offline median

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Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« on: June 16, 2013, 08:24:36 PM »
START HERE:


 

For those of you who were around at the time, the apologist "AlexBP" started a thread back in 2010 in an attempt to respond to this video. His claim was basically that the video-maker was misinterpreting the bible and that the passages cited therein were not to be taken literally (i.e. - as metaphor) - to which those critical thinkers who responded did so by basically calling bullshit. Anyways, the question still remains:

Christians: Why do you refuse to obey Jesus when he has called you to do the things listed in the video (i.e. - the things in the bible)? Please note that in your attempt to respond to this we will be anticipating the "out of context" or "misinterpretation" charge. No, we aren't misinterpreting the bible. You are. But let's have the debate anyways!





Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline Mooby

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #1 on: June 16, 2013, 10:05:14 PM »
Christians: Why do you refuse to obey Jesus when he has called you to do the things listed in the video (i.e. - the things in the bible)? Please note that in your attempt to respond to this we will be anticipating the "out of context" or "misinterpretation" charge. No, we aren't misinterpreting the bible. You are. But let's have the debate anyways!
Sure, let's.  I'll use Marshall's Titles.

Commandment 1: You should love your enemies
Marshall quite justifiably draws this conclusion, but then asks the red herring, "So why does America have a military?"  Having a military does not imply one must hate (or "not love") enemies.  A military is a necessary security requirement for most nations; its mere existence does not imply any love or hate of another.  As with many things, it's not the thing itself but how it's used.  When and how a military can act in ways that still uphold love for others is central to the discussion of just war theory.

Commandment 2: You must sell everything
Matthew 19: 21-24 - Verse 21 does not say "If you want to go to heaven, " it says, "If you want to be perfect."  21-24 is the setup to Jesus' teaching.  The actual teaching is found in verse 26.  Basically, the rich man in the story wants to earn his way into Heaven, and Jesus responds by highlighting exactly why humans are not perfect enough to earn their own salvation; which plays into the much larger theological point of redemption and salvation through Christ that forms the entire backbone of Christianity.  But why go into that when we can just quote mine?

Luke 14:33 - This verse is in the context of a passage about recognizing the potential costs/benefits of discipleship and recognizing it as an all-in or all-out proposition.  Jesus is stating God must be first, above families, possessions, etc., and thus the disciples must be willing to give those things up as central priorities if they want to follow Him.  This is reflected in the numerous analyses of this chapter found online (I'm not going to regurgitate it due to length.)  He does not say each possession must be literally sold and/or given away.

Matthew 6:19, 24 - Again, this verse is about priorities.  This verse summarizes the 18 verses before, where Jesus is comparing doing good things for Earthly recognition to doing them because they're good.  Jesus is saying that God must come first, not that no possessions can be kept.  This is reiterated in verse 24, when Jesus says money should not be served as a "master."  Again, He is not saying His disciples can never touch money; He's saying they can't serve money because, as Marshall rightly points out, wealth is a deceitful master.

Luke 12:33 - Jesus is again talking about priorities, this time with respect to trusting God, as evidenced in verses 22-32, which in turn are based on the premise in verse 21, which specifically identifies the target audience as someone who is pursuing earthly possessions while ignoring duties towards God, which of course is the moral to the parable cautioning against greed for Earthly possessions to the exclusion of God as expressed in verse 15, which was a response to the ignorant question in verse 13 that did not get the entire point Jesus was trying to make in verse 1-12.  Now, I won't accuse this verse of being "out of context," but I will say that it's impossible to understand this verse properly without recognizing the dependencies noted above, plus the verse after it, plus the second half of the verse (Marshall only quoted half).

The point being, of course, that someone whose trust is in God does not need to worry about possessions, and very well could sell all of them without fear as long as they have faith in God.  Nowhere in that chapter does Jesus identify that act as necessary for salvation.

Wellp that's enough to generate a half dozen responses.  It should be plenty to get us started.  I'm off to bed.
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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #2 on: June 16, 2013, 11:50:33 PM »
Mooby,

Why would Biblegod allow imperfect beings into Heaven?

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #3 on: June 17, 2013, 08:36:16 AM »



Commandment 1: You should love your enemies
Marshall quite justifiably draws this conclusion, but then asks the red herring, "So why does America have a military?"  Having a military does not imply one must hate (or "not love") enemies.  A military is a necessary security requirement for most nations; its mere existence does not imply any love or hate of another.  As with many things, it's not the thing itself but how it's used.  When and how a military can act in ways that still uphold love for others is central to the discussion of just war theory.

It doesn't take an army to turn the other cheek.  That is what Jesus said do.



Commandment 2: You must sell everything
Matthew 19: 21-24 - Verse 21 does not say "If you want to go to heaven, " it says, "If you want to be perfect."  21-24 is the setup to Jesus' teaching.  The actual teaching is found in verse 26.  Basically, the rich man in the story wants to earn his way into Heaven, and Jesus responds by highlighting exactly why humans are not perfect enough to earn their own salvation; which plays into the much larger theological point of redemption and salvation through Christ that forms the entire backbone of Christianity.  But why go into that when we can just quote mine?



Jesus says be humble, don't see much of that.  Jesus frowned on public prayer, he smited the pharisees for it.  Jesus frowned on wearing long robes and making long speeches.  This happens every Sunday and Wednesday.  Jesus don't judge, happens everyday.  I bet Jesus would turn the tables over to see a big yard sale at his father's house. 

Well I think Jesus was quite clear that a rich man won't enter into heaven and how many rich evangelists are there? 

Anyway there may be some Christians out there doing right by Christ but the majority of hypocrites shadow them out.

I believe in God not the bible.  The bible is a disgrace to God.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline median

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #4 on: June 17, 2013, 11:30:17 AM »
Commandment 1: You should love your enemies
Marshall quite justifiably draws this conclusion, but then asks the red herring, "So why does America have a military?"  Having a military does not imply one must hate (or "not love") enemies.  A military is a necessary security requirement for most nations; its mere existence does not imply any love or hate of another.  As with many things, it's not the thing itself but how it's used.  When and how a military can act in ways that still uphold love for others is central to the discussion of just war theory.

A military is a necessary requirement according to who? Certainly not Jesus. But this violates the command to "love your enemies". Let's look at it on a micro scale, if I have a knife pointed at my neighbor's throat but say, "I love you brother" doesn't that sound a little bit like lying? In the passages he cites, Jesus doesn't just say love your neighbor. He says love your enemy, and "do good to those who persecute you". It seems not just a little absurd (and very much like an outright excuse) to say, "Oh, me having this knife to your throat doesn't really matter does it? I still love you!" According the the alleged words of Jesus, and Paul (through the "holy spirit") living as a follower of Christ is supposed to be quite radically different from that of "the world". But Christians today aren't living like Jesus. They are making up their own version of Christianity because they know true Christianity is absurd.

Now, America has military bases in about 38 different countries. Some of them in South Korea pointed at North Korea, some in the middle east, pointed at the Taliban, etc. Are professing Christians (in the military the majority) demonstrating a love for their enemies doing this? I think not and it seems quite a rationalization to say so (which is why the video was made). Loving someone, or a group of people, does not entail (in any way) gearing up for battle! If Christians are going to claim they are followers of Christ, then they should stop violating his commands and start actually being more Christ-like - which means following his commands and his example.

I'll answer the other one later.

Matthew 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat: 14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.

According to Jesus' own words, the majority of professing Christians are going to hell.
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 12:29:28 PM by median »
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Offline Jontom10

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #5 on: June 17, 2013, 11:56:58 AM »
America with the help of Britain proactively attacks other countries "terrorists". They kill people!

Christians do not do what the Jesus you are referring to says they are following what their Jesus says or at the very least what their money grabbing priest says JEsus says. Every Christian I know is a SPAG (Self Projection As God).

So in their own deluded world of delusion within delusion they are doing exactly what their interpretation of the Bible says Christians should do.

Heck Jehovahs Witnesses wrote their own bible so that they can be sure to be doing what it says...which is pretty much the same i.e. obey the priesthood and give us your money.
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Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2013, 01:19:24 PM »
START HERE: Christians: Why do you refuse to obey Jesus when he has called you to do the things listed in the video (i.e. - the things in the bible)?

The scriptures cover the problem of Sin Nature in depth.
Humans are unable to follow the law because we don't
walk side by side with God in the garden, as Adam did.
Even then, he was given the option to disobey, which
he did.

I have an advanced education in persuasion techniques
so I don't watch video unless for class.  It's quite persuasive.

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #7 on: June 17, 2013, 03:54:37 PM »
The scriptures cover the problem of Sin Nature in depth.
Humans are unable to follow the law because we don't
walk side by side with God in the garden, as Adam did.
Even then, he was given the option to disobey, which
he did.
It kinda sounds like you are saying that the reason people do not obey Jesus is because god will not allow people to do so.
People can't follow the law because we don't walk side by side with god in the garden - k...so, simple solution then.  If god would simply walk with us in the garden then we would have the option to either obey or disobey god.  As it stands right now, god does not walk side by side with us in the garden, and therefore we are unable to follow the law.

Quote
I have an advanced education in persuasion techniques
so I don't watch video unless for class.  It's quite persuasive.
Off-topic, but curiosity is getting the better of me.  What is this advanced education?
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline median

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #8 on: June 17, 2013, 04:38:31 PM »
START HERE: Christians: Why do you refuse to obey Jesus when he has called you to do the things listed in the video (i.e. - the things in the bible)?

The scriptures cover the problem of Sin Nature in depth.
Humans are unable to follow the law because we don't
walk side by side with God in the garden, as Adam did.
Even then, he was given the option to disobey, which
he did.

I have an advanced education in persuasion techniques
so I don't watch video unless for class.  It's quite persuasive.


But this is the fallacy of a red herring b/c we aren't talking about the Judaic law. We are talking about the command of Jesus to his followers (aka - not all who follow will enter into heaven but he who does the will of the father, etc). "Wide is the gate", remember? Besides that, "walking side by side with God in the garden" is irrelevant to the question of obedience (as, supposedly, they didn't obey him either, along with Satan and many angels). This rationalization you are attempting doesn't work because it is contrary to the commands of the alleged God/Jesus you claim to follow. Making up your own version of Christianity in order to avoid the inherent problems therein doesn't solve the problem. It just displays intellectual dishonesty.

So the response, "I don't obey b/c I'm a sinner" isn't a valid excuse. Being a "sinner" doesn't excuse you from having to follow Jesus' commands (which is kind of the point of this OP). Remember the part about "Depart from me. I never knew you"?

Btw, persuasion techniques? You mean enough to persuade yourself into believing a religious ideology in spite of evidence to the contrary? I'm not interested in persuasion. I'm interested in what is actually true, and I care whether or not my beliefs are actually true. Do you?
« Last Edit: June 17, 2013, 04:40:31 PM by median »
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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #9 on: June 17, 2013, 04:44:36 PM »
I think Jesus and war fits: Matthew 10:34
Quote
Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #10 on: June 17, 2013, 06:03:18 PM »
Because most of the stuff Jesus says in the bible makes no sense to modern people.

Even people who claim to believe in Jesus and follow the bible would rather live by secular than religious laws, enjoy the advances of atheistic science and technology, and don't really know what the bible says anyway.[1] &)
 1. And don't want to know, or else they would actually read the damn thing instead of relying on "bible study".
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #11 on: June 17, 2013, 06:35:09 PM »
Have read Bible studies. They are vastly subjective opinions. Some written, of course, as facts.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #12 on: June 18, 2013, 09:10:21 AM »
START HERE: Christians: Why do you refuse to obey Jesus when he has called you to do the things listed in the video (i.e. - the things in the bible)?

The scriptures cover the problem of Sin Nature in depth.
Humans are unable to follow the law because we don't
walk side by side with God in the garden, as Adam did.
Even then, he was given the option to disobey, which
he did.

I have an advanced education in persuasion techniques
so I don't watch video unless for class.  It's quite persuasive.
But this is the fallacy of a red herring b/c we aren't talking about the Judaic law. We are talking about the command of Jesus to his followers (aka - not all who follow will enter into heaven but he who does the will of the father, etc). "Wide is the gate", remember? Besides that, "walking side by side with God in the garden" is irrelevant to the question of obedience (as, supposedly, they didn't obey him either, along with Satan and many angels). This rationalization you are attempting doesn't work because it is contrary to the commands of the alleged God/Jesus you claim to follow. Making up your own version of Christianity in order to avoid the inherent problems therein doesn't solve the problem. It just displays intellectual dishonesty.
So the response, "I don't obey b/c I'm a sinner" isn't a valid excuse. Being a "sinner" doesn't excuse you from having to follow Jesus' commands (which is kind of the point of this OP). Remember the part about "Depart from me. I never knew you"?
Btw, persuasion techniques? You mean enough to persuade yourself into believing a religious ideology in spite of evidence to the contrary? I'm not interested in persuasion. I'm interested in what is actually true, and I care whether or not my beliefs are actually true. Do you?

 I don't agree with you on each point.
Which means I'd need to break out each sentence and I hate when people do that.

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #13 on: June 18, 2013, 09:20:19 AM »
START HERE: Christians: Why do you refuse to obey Jesus when he has called you to do the things listed in the video (i.e. - the things in the bible)?

The scriptures cover the problem of Sin Nature in depth.
Humans are unable to follow the law because we don't
walk side by side with God in the garden, as Adam did.
Even then, he was given the option to disobey, which
he did.

I have an advanced education in persuasion techniques
so I don't watch video unless for class.  It's quite persuasive.
Does it say what the difference between mortal sin and regular forgivable sin? Is there a sin you can commit where even accepting Jesus as your lord wont save you from? Or does the Jesus card save you from ALL sins committed?

 Does God now look the other way on mortal sin if you accept Jesus?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #14 on: June 18, 2013, 10:12:16 AM »
I don't agree with you on each point.
Which means I'd need to break out each sentence and I hate when people do that.
Yeah that sucks...point-by-point rebuttals that make it easy for others to hold you accountable to your responses.

Can't have that noise.
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Offline median

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #15 on: June 18, 2013, 12:34:24 PM »

 I don't agree with you on each point.
Which means I'd need to break out each sentence and I hate when people do that.

"Breakinging out" each sentence usually means spinning the meaning to make it say what you want it so say, instead of what it actually says - but you won't even do that now? WOW. 

Sounds like credulity to me!
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 02:20:06 PM by median »
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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #16 on: June 18, 2013, 01:14:37 PM »
I don't agree with you on each point.
Which means I'd need to break out each sentence and I hate when people do that.

Ah, the battle cry of those who have nothing to support their position in the face of opposition. This took longer than I expected - good job spinning BS up to this point.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #17 on: June 18, 2013, 01:55:14 PM »
Even then, he [Adam] was given the option to disobey, which he did.

why?
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Offline median

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #18 on: June 18, 2013, 02:14:11 PM »
Humans are unable to follow the law because we don't
walk side by side with God in the garden, as Adam did.
Even then, he was given the option to disobey, which
he did.

But of course, according to your own claimed holy book, the "knowledge of good and evil" didn't exist at that time. So Adam/Eve would have had absolutely no knowledge that what they were doing was wrong. Their actions would have been moot. It is an outright contradiction to say that they knew they were doing something wrong but that no knowledge of good/evil existed. If you admit that there was knowledge of good/evil then you must admit that your bible contradicts itself (and this is what we would except from superstitious people living in the pre-scientific era and writing down stories passed down).

You simply cannot reconcile your assumed religion with reality. Your theology is purely irrational - plain and simple - because it is self contradictory. To deny this is to accept intellectual dishonesty - which brings me back to a question I asked you in a different post:

Do you even care whether or not your beliefs are actually true?
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 02:18:33 PM by median »
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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #19 on: June 18, 2013, 06:40:06 PM »
Mooby,

Why would Biblegod allow imperfect beings into Heaven?

-Nam

That is not an option.  One must be reborn.  This body stinks.

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #20 on: June 18, 2013, 06:45:21 PM »

Commandment 1: You should love your enemies

Commandment 2: You must sell everything

One should love their enemies and be willing to die for them.

One should give up ownership of all "matter" and "things" and prepare for the afterlife.
For example, I have been ready to leave everything behind for years.
But there are some great things I have yet to do, God willing.

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #21 on: June 18, 2013, 06:48:16 PM »
Mooby,

Why would Biblegod allow imperfect beings into Heaven?

-Nam

That is not an option.  One must be reborn.  This body stinks.

Hi Mooby.

-Nam
A god is like a rock: it does absolutely nothing until someone or something forces it to do something. The only capability the rock has is doing nothing until another force compels it physically to move.

The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously - Humphrey

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #22 on: June 18, 2013, 06:57:25 PM »
One should love their enemies and be willing to die for them.

So, you'd be in favour of free commercial pilot training for Al-Qaida operatives?  :o
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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #23 on: June 18, 2013, 11:32:51 PM »
Mooby,

Why would Biblegod allow imperfect beings into Heaven?

-Nam

That is not an option.  One must be reborn.  This body stinks.

Human body bad! Hulk smash human body! How very medieval of you. Are you into the whole flagellating and scourging thing, too?

Why don't you people who think that life on earth is such a terrible thing go volunteer to clear land mines in Afghanistan and Laos? I am serious. You would be doing good, and get a ticket straight to heaven. :angel:

But, no, you hang around here, making quivers full of fundy kids and do your best to make things difficult for the rest of us.... >:( &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #24 on: June 19, 2013, 12:08:40 AM »

That is not an option.  One must be reborn. 

And you know this...how?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #25 on: June 19, 2013, 10:20:19 AM »
One should love their enemies and be willing to die for them.
Whatever dude. Demonstrate this please. Really, I'm waiting for an demonstration of you loving your enemies and being willing to die for them. Otherwise, I'm compelled to call "bullshit".

Quote
One should give up ownership of all "matter" and "things" and prepare for the afterlife.
For example, I have been ready to leave everything behind for years.
So what's stopping you? Anyone can SAY anything on the internet - there's no accountability. If you are, as you say, fully prepared to leave everything behind and have been for years, what are you waiting for?

Quote
But there are some great things I have yet to do, God willing.

Get on it dude. The world is in need of people taking positive action. nogodsforme had some practical suggestions for you; what excuse do you have for not doing exactly as she suggests? Do you think you god would disapprove because the idea came from an atheist - who is demonstrating that she's a better human being than you are just by virtue of having some practical advice, as opposed to your prayers? Get off your knees and DO something.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #26 on: June 20, 2013, 08:33:01 AM »
One should love their enemies and be willing to die for them.
Whatever dude. Demonstrate this please. Really, I'm waiting for an demonstration of you loving your enemies and being willing to die for them. Otherwise, I'm compelled to call "bullshit".

That's fine.  I'm not looking for any specific reaction to my views. 

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #27 on: June 20, 2013, 08:36:19 AM »

That is not an option.  One must be reborn. 

And you know this...how?

The teachings of Jesus are the subject of the post. "Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus? "
One of them concerned being reborn.
http://biblehub.com/john/3-5.htm

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Christians: Why Do You Refuse To Obey Jesus?
« Reply #28 on: June 20, 2013, 08:39:31 AM »
Mooby,

Why would Biblegod allow imperfect beings into Heaven?

-Nam

That is not an option.  One must be reborn.  This body stinks.

Human body bad! Hulk smash human body! How very medieval of you. Are you into the whole flagellating and scourging thing, too?

Why don't you people who think that life on earth is such a terrible thing go volunteer to clear land mines in Afghanistan and Laos? I am serious. You would be doing good, and get a ticket straight to heaven. :angel:

People often get romantic about doing things in foreign countries.  Are you Catholic or something?
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 08:41:26 AM by SkyWriting »