Question to theists

[jdawg70]

nebula -

Is all of this ultimately some long-winded, wootastic way of saying that without a solid foundation of logic it is impossible to determine the truth-value of a claim?

'cause if it is...you could just come right out and say it.  Won't hurt.

[median]

the one thing that connects you to this world and allows you to separate fact from fiction (your rational mind).

How do you know your mind is rational?

1. That would depend upon what you mean by the term "know" (again b/c you religionists are hung up on an absolute certainly for which you do not have)

2. Answer me how you know gravity is real, and you might have your answer

[Jstwebbrowsing]

If God asked you to sacrifice/kill your son to prove your love for Him. Would you do it?

Sticking strictly to the question and assuming God did in fact ask such a thing then I would have to say that I don't know.  I would like to say that I would but I don't think I can honestly answer unless I was actually in that situation.  It's sort of like asking if I would deny God if I were being tortured.  Hopefully I wouldn't but I cannot say for sure what I would do. 

[median]

If God asked you to sacrifice/kill your son to prove your love for Him. Would you do it?

Sticking strictly to the question and assuming God did in fact ask such a thing then I would have to say that I don't know.  I would like to say that I would but I don't think I can honestly answer unless I was actually in that situation.  It's sort of like asking if I would deny God if I were being tortured.  Hopefully I wouldn't but I cannot say for sure what I would do.

But you believe he asked Abraham to do it, right? So it can't be that weird for you.

This question strikes at one of the core objections we non-believers have with your theology - namely that just because your bible (i.e. - your god) says something is right, doesn't make it right. This is sometimes referred to as the Euthyphro dilemma. Is something morally right merely because god commands it, or does god command it because it is right? If something is moral merely b/c a dictator says so then there is no objective morality b/c the dictator could change it at anytime. But if the dictator commands something b/c it's moral then objective morality exists without the dictator - at which case the dictator is also subject to the moral law (i.e. - he would be acting immorally for asking you to violate it).

In response to your response, you don't know? Really? Would you give in to a murdering monster if he wanted you to exterminate a specific race of people in a concentration camp? There have been many cases where people have gone to prison for slaying their children b/c they claimed god told them to do it. Would you say that absolutely none of them actually got the command from your god? If so, how can you make that claim when your own bible clearly depicts not only god commanding a man to slay his child, but also commanding (allegedly) the slaughtering of hundreds of thousands of people (see 1 Samuel 15, etc)?

But here's the absolute worst part. You say, "I would like to say that I would...[obey the command and slay my child]" WHAT!? Are you serious? You would actually LIKE to say that you would obey a disgusting, vile, dictator? This makes you completely immoral - and really incapable of evaluating and/or making your own moral judgments. Furthermore, if you cannot evaluate whether or not the things in your bible are actually moral or not (b/c you are supposedly 'fallen' or whatever) then how can you make the moral assessment that your god is moral?

[epidemic]

But here's the absolute worst part. You say, "I would like to say that I would...[obey the command and slay my child]" WHAT!? Are you serious? You would actually LIKE to say that you would obey a disgusting, vile, dictator? This makes you completely immoral - and really incapable of evaluating and/or making your own moral judgments. Furthermore, if you cannot evaluate whether or not the things in your bible are actually moral or not (b/c you are supposedly 'fallen' or whatever) then how can you make the moral assessment that your god is moral?

If I believe god existed, he was the god described in the bible, I believed he stood for good, I believed that he held the keys to my eternal torture or salvation...  I would say I would obey while singing his praises. 

My child gets a free trip to paradise, I ensure my free trip to paradise and no one loses.

Perhaps god knows something I don't.  Like the little brat is destined on doing something horrible i.e. he is going to grow up to be far worse than hitler. 



Of course that all assumed I believed in an omnipotent superbeing who dabbled in the existence of humans and held the power of life/death and paradise/hell.

I would like to have the chance to ask why he had me doing this to my son.   

The more likely outcome of this conversation with god would result in me going to seek professional help these days, because even if I believed in GOD as described I still would question my sanity because there are lots of crazies out there and I just might have had a psychotic break.

[jaimehlers]

Sticking strictly to the question and assuming God did in fact ask such a thing then I would have to say that I don't know.  I would like to say that I would but I don't think I can honestly answer unless I was actually in that situation.  It's sort of like asking if I would deny God if I were being tortured.  Hopefully I wouldn't but I cannot say for sure what I would do.

Frankly, a being who demands the sacrifice of a child (especially when they've been promising that this child is really important and special and will represent the future for your entire people) is evil and does not deserve worship.  However, if they're strong enough, they might be able to compel obedience.

That's what most ancient religions were like - keeping the big guy (whether god, ruler, or gang leader) appeased so that he might not off you and your family as an object lesson to your neighbors.  And once that relationship was established, he had an incentive to treat you at least reasonably well, if only to protect his investment.

[epidemic]

On the whole Abraham killing Isaac thing.  I think the situation may have happened to someone and the story was passed down from generation to generation.  However the conversation was probably due to a midlife onset schitzophrenia.  His conversation for both the killing and when his rational mind kicked back in explains the story pretty well.  When mom asked why were you going to kill our boy he told her about the voices in his head.

[Jag]

^^^Sadly the field of neurology did not yet exists, thus entire generations went on believing that hearing voices in your head meant God was speaking to you. In many cases this belief still holds true - I submit Mormonism for your consideration. Eventually, thanks to religion, people determined that hearing voices in your head might also be caused by demonic possession. Great forward strides there.

Anyone know what criteria they used to determine which was which?

[Timtheskeptic]

If I believe god existed, he was the god described in the bible, I believed he stood for good, I believed that he held the keys to my eternal torture or salvation...  I would say I would obey while singing his praises. 

So you would be singing praise to a biblegod who has done such heinous things in the Bible or even commanded heinous acts. I wonder if you think it was praiseworthy of the God who slaughtered 42 children or when he placed a bet on Job's life.

My child gets a free trip to paradise, I ensure my free trip to paradise and no one loses.

Actually, what if it's not going to be like that? What if he just sends you and your kid to hell? Besides, even if there is an eternal paradise and it's for sure you'll be there, i would not send my kid up there right away. The world may not be perfect, but i think killing your kid for "keeping them from suffering here on earth" is a stupid argument and insane as well.

Perhaps god knows something I don't.  Like the little brat is destined on doing something horrible i.e. he is going to grow up to be far worse than hitler. 

Wow, really? So you think a God would want a kid killed so they don't turned out to be like Hitler while there's thousands of murderous people worldwide, rapists and pedophiles and even people who enslaved others and used them in sex trade. Brilliant.

Of course that all assumed I believed in an omnipotent superbeing who dabbled in the existence of humans and held the power of life/death and paradise/hell.

I would like to have the chance to ask why he had me doing this to my son.   

The more likely outcome of this conversation with god would result in me going to seek professional help these days, because even if I believed in GOD as described I still would question my sanity because there are lots of crazies out there and I just might have had a psychotic break.

You would question, and yet you think the kid would either turn out to be Hitler or would be going to an eternal paradise. *Facepalm*


Or if i misjudge you, which i would apologize, i feel that there just isn't any logical reason to obey anyone who demands you kill your child.

[median]

If I believe god existed, he was the god described in the bible, I believed he stood for good, I believed that he held the keys to my eternal torture or salvation...  I would say I would obey while singing his praises. 

My child gets a free trip to paradise, I ensure my free trip to paradise and no one loses.

Perhaps god knows something I don't.  Like the little brat is destined on doing something horrible i.e. he is going to grow up to be far worse than hitler. 

So basically your answer is yes then, that you would obey the wishes of a sick, sadistic, monstrous dictator instead of resisting his immorality? And even more, somehow you think spending an eternity with this being would be "paradise"? WOW. You could say "perhaps" about just about anything you want regarding some invisible, non-demonstrable, deity thing - as could any of us here - but that wouldn't change the fact that you would be choosing to cow-tail to a cosmic Kim-Jong Il. How does that make you feel? Would you still think this god was "holy", "righteous", "perfect", and "just"?

[Jag]

If I believe god existed, he was the god described in the bible, I believed he stood for good, I believed that he held the keys to my eternal torture or salvation...  I would say I would obey while singing his praises. 


Of course that all assumed I believed in an omnipotent superbeing who dabbled in the existence of humans and held the power of life/death and paradise/hell.

I would like to have the chance to ask why he had me doing this to my son.   

The more likely outcome of this conversation with god would result in me going to seek professional help these days, because even if I believed in GOD as described I still would question my sanity because there are lots of crazies out there and I just might have had a psychotic break.

I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt because of the very specific way you said this. Here's hoping I wasn't wrong to do so. Please clarify, because it seems I'm the only one, and I may have missed something significant in a different post.

[epidemic]

dude if god asks you to jump you say how High.

[jdawg70]

dude if god asks you to jump you say how High.

Alternatively:
If god asks you to jump, you say 'why should I'?

[LoriPinkAngel]

dude if god asks you to jump you say how High.

Alternatively:
If god asks you to jump, you say 'why should I'?

Or.. Doctor, my clozapine appears to be losing it's effectivness.

[neopagan]

dude if god asks you to jump you say how High.

the god of parlor tricks... always the same "dance for me, kill for me, worship me, prove you love me..." all the while, I'll stay completely hidden and unproveable

[lv99_atheist]

Bonus if you throw in a few hotties too (Men and women 

Of course, he says that after he has been with someone in a supposedly monogamous relationship since August of last year (with me.) 

[epidemic]

dude if god asks you to jump you say how High.

Alternatively:
If god asks you to jump, you say 'why should I'?

Well because if you don't jump you will suffer an enternity of pain, but if you do jump you will enjoy an eternity of joy.   Why???  because I said so!!! 

This is assuming that god has proved himself to me.  When or if god proves his existence and power then I would likely be beholdin to do his bidding. 

How does he prove himself to me is irrelevant once I know in my mind for a fact that this guy controls not only my existence or non existence but my quality of life.  I don't think I need to know the why at that point. 

When my 18 year old daughter asks me why should I clean the living room and I say because.... She had better do it because she knows what I can do to her or for her.  It is up to her to decide if she whishes to be put out on the street, grounded, car privilidges revoked or pay rent.  I can help her with college or not help her.  The god of the bible has the ability to give way better punishments.

Although I would tend to try and give her a reason sometimes because I said so should suffice.  I don't want to go through the effort of saying here are the benefits of a clean livingroom and failure to do it will result in distasteful things.

[epidemic]

If I believe god existed, he was the god described in the bible, I believed he stood for good, I believed that he held the keys to my eternal torture or salvation...  I would say I would obey while singing his praises. 

My child gets a free trip to paradise, I ensure my free trip to paradise and no one loses.

Perhaps god knows something I don't.  Like the little brat is destined on doing something horrible i.e. he is going to grow up to be far worse than hitler. 

So basically your answer is yes then, that you would obey the wishes of a sick, sadistic, monstrous dictator instead of resisting his immorality? And even more, somehow you think spending an eternity with this being would be "paradise"? WOW. You could say "perhaps" about just about anything you want regarding some invisible, non-demonstrable, deity thing - as could any of us here - but that wouldn't change the fact that you would be choosing to cow-tail to a cosmic Kim-Jong Il. How does that make you feel? Would you still think this god was "holy", "righteous", "perfect", and "just"?

Just because I do not understand his motives does not make him a viscious dictator. 

I did not say I would Obey a non-demonstrabe invisible being.  I told you that he had proven himself to me in a satisfactory way.  Meaning I understood him, interacted with him.   That is where I said assuming god proved his existence.

How is it sick to kill people?  on measure it is a finite time vs infinite time in paradise.  There is really no measure of the suffering.  A god that created the universe and man who controlled eternity of paradise can kill you with out guilt if he give you paradise.  Living might well be the sadistic thing but live or die on measure against eternity is really irrelevant.  It is akin to saying that a mom is sadistic for lancing a boil.   Life being a boil compared with paradise.

PS our recent slavey conversations prove that more than likely you would do so as well.  A human with a choice between heaven and hell or heaven an nothing will usually choose life over torture and death.  Everything else is bravado and macho BS and a few really really really strong idealoues. 

Stop making me defend god.  I don't believe in god but in hypothetical world where god was known to exist most people would follow him with out question right up and to killing onself or others. 

 

[LoriPinkAngel]

Just because I do not understand his motives does not make him a viscious dictator. 

I think the bottom line is that if something feels wrong it is wrong. If there is no motive that can absolutely explain the need for this action it must not be done.  If any voice or entity or whatever is telling me something that goes against my basic values I'm not going to do it.  Period. 

[epidemic]

Just because I do not understand his motives does not make him a viscious dictator. 

I think the bottom line is that if something feels wrong it is wrong. If there is no motive that can absolutely explain the need for this action it must not be done.  If any voice or entity or whatever is telling me something that goes against my basic values I'm not going to do it.  Period.

I understand that.  I am just saying if you know this god is real (he has made himself apparent and you know he can do what he says and he is who he says).   I am not suggesting you have a thought and attribute it to god.  No the man makes a personal appearance 900 feet tall to you infront of 50 people who all say wow that was some shit wasn't it.  You know it was god.  Personally in that situation I might defer to his reasons and do as commanded.   

Again is life important at all if paradise is where the person you kill is going.  Would said person thank you or hate you for killing him?

[jdawg70]

I understand that.  I am just saying if you know this god is real (he has made himself apparent and you know he can do what he says and he is who he says).   I am not suggesting you have a thought and attribute it to god.  No the man makes a personal appearance 900 feet tall to you infront of 50 people who all say wow that was some shit wasn't it.  You know it was god.  Personally in that situation I might defer to his reasons and do as commanded.   

Again is life important at all if paradise is where the person you kill is going.  Would said person thank you or hate you for killing him?

Let's be clear about something - in this case, you aren't deferring to god's reasons, but strictly deferring to his power.

But I get what you're saying at the end of the day.  Personally, I feel that I'm probably weak-willed enough to submit to a being of sufficient power.  I contend that I would have the audacity to ask 'why', but that first lightening bolt up my rear end would have a high chance of me saying 'sorry sir, no more'.

[ParkingPlaces]

I understand that.  I am just saying if you know this god is real (he has made himself apparent and you know he can do what he says and he is who he says).   I am not suggesting you have a thought and attribute it to god.  No the man makes a personal appearance 900 feet tall to you infront of 50 people who all say wow that was some shit wasn't it.  You know it was god.  Personally in that situation I might defer to his reasons and do as commanded.   

Again is life important at all if paradise is where the person you kill is going.  Would said person thank you or hate you for killing him?

If the dude shows up 900 feet tall or otherwise makes himself more apparent than he has thus far, I'll be more than happy to take notice, even if I don't like it. And my reason for not liking it wouldn't be because I don't want a god, but because my morals are far better than his and hence, just like politicians, he will have very little appeal.

And in the meantime, since I do not live with the thought of a paradise or any other afterlife, I don't run around killing people because that would end it all for them and that's not my job. Nor is it anyone else's, unless said person is busy killing others and needs to be stopped. A situation which I have not personally had to deal with.

And I have no desire to live infinitely long. That would make everything trivial and take the fun out of things. So not only do I not think there is a god, I'm hoping there isn't, either, because he would ruin everything.

[Truth OT]

If God asked you to sacrifice/kill your son to prove your love for Him. Would you do it?

If it could be proven and I could be certain that it was in fact the all powerful honest God that is the author and giver of life asking me to do it, I think I may go through with it if IT asked me to and I was given certain assurances.

- I would need to know that God loves and cares for me first
- I'd need to know that my boy can and would be resurrected or would be given the gift of a special post human life that was exceedingly better and more fulfilling than the human existence could offer
- I'd need to know that there was more to life that awaits those that love God than the life we know and understand

[epidemic]

And in the meantime, since I do not live with the thought of a paradise or any other afterlife, I don't run around killing people because that would end it all for them and that's not my job. Nor is it anyone else's, unless said person is busy killing others and needs to be stopped. A situation which I have not personally had to deal with.

And I have no desire to live infinitely long. That would make everything trivial and take the fun out of things. So not only do I not think there is a god, I'm hoping there isn't, either, because he would ruin everything.

Well God may not have only the keys to eternal paradise (which I can't envision how that would be pleasant )  But he may have the keys to the inverse of paradise.  Eternal suffering!!!  That would suck.  We are talking about the ultimate carrot and stick.

[ParkingPlaces]

And in the meantime, since I do not live with the thought of a paradise or any other afterlife, I don't run around killing people because that would end it all for them and that's not my job. Nor is it anyone else's, unless said person is busy killing others and needs to be stopped. A situation which I have not personally had to deal with.

And I have no desire to live infinitely long. That would make everything trivial and take the fun out of things. So not only do I not think there is a god, I'm hoping there isn't, either, because he would ruin everything.

Well God may not have only the keys to eternal paradise (which I can't envision how that would be pleasant )  But he may have the keys to the inverse of paradise.  Eternal suffering!!!  That would suck.  We are talking about the ultimate carrot and stick.

It can't be the ultimate carrot and stick. It doesn't always work. Omnipotent guys should be better at their job.

Since there is no god, there is no heaven and there is no hell. And that is much better than the imagined alternative anyway.

[Danohk]

No, I wouldn't.