Author Topic: Question to theists  (Read 6964 times)

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Offline Jag

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #58 on: June 18, 2013, 09:17:54 AM »
^^^If we all agree with this position, we have nothing left to talk about. Thus, I reject it based on my interest in continuing to discuss whatever catches my attention here.  ;D

That choice may be an illusion, but it allows me to get my way so I'm going with it.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Online LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #59 on: June 18, 2013, 10:00:06 AM »
My mom's a Christian and even though, I am sure, she wanted to kill me at some point, she wouldn't; I don't even think if Biblegod ordered her to. Family is very important to her, as it is with many Christians, and people in general.

I was thinking about this and I was wondering if a large number of Christians were polled would the responses differ between mothers and fathers?  Would mothers be less willing to kill their children than fathers?  Particularly in the more fundy, patriarchal sects?  I know my initial answer to the question  was a flat out "no" but I am not a good representative of Christians in general...
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Jag

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #60 on: June 18, 2013, 10:28:39 AM »
^^^That's a good question. I wonder a lot of things about the patriarchal movement, but this is a new one.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline median

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #61 on: June 18, 2013, 12:23:16 PM »
That very much depends upon how one defines "consciousness" and how one defines "illusion".

There is no possibility that a person can ever make a choice about anything.   In the case presented in the OP, an apparent decision will be made and it will be based on the genetics and environmental conditioning of that part of the universe we call the person faced with this choice.  This supposed free agent will have no control over his or her actions whatsoever, free will and awareness itself being completely illusory or not real.

That would depend entirely upon how one defines the terms "choice" and "freewill". Have you read Dan Dennett or any other modern philosophers regarding this subject?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline nebula

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #62 on: June 19, 2013, 09:14:09 AM »
Have you read Dan Dennett or any other modern philosophers regarding this subject?

No.

Offline median

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Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #64 on: June 19, 2013, 03:39:50 PM »
That very much depends upon how one defines "consciousness" and how one defines "illusion".

There is no possibility that a person can ever make a choice about anything.   In the case presented in the OP, an apparent decision will be made and it will be based on the genetics and environmental conditioning of that part of the universe we call the person faced with this choice.  This supposed free agent will have no control over his or her actions whatsoever, free will and awareness itself being completely illusory or not real.

That would depend entirely upon how one defines the terms "choice" and "freewill". Have you read Dan Dennett or any other modern philosophers regarding this subject?


I say this to both of you. If God exists, then choice and free will can exist simultaneously.  It would not be an illusion at all.  We exist in this time line, God spans the timeline simultaneously.

Offline Nam

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #65 on: June 19, 2013, 04:44:52 PM »
Biblegod is not about "choice" or "freewill". Biblegod is about "you give everything to me or suffer for all eternity". It's not really a choice if that's your only option.

Get over such pathetic fiction.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #66 on: June 19, 2013, 05:55:24 PM »
Biblegod is not about "choice" or "freewill". Biblegod is about "you give everything to me or suffer for all eternity". It's not really a choice if that's your only option.

Get over such pathetic fiction.

-Nam

I can choose to believe it or not Nam.  I can choose to not believe in God and no fear of Judgement or hope of eternal life with nothing to look forward to except for a grave, or I can choose to believe and have something to look forward to, and still risk a grave in Hell. 

Offline median

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #67 on: June 19, 2013, 08:31:54 PM »
Biblegod is not about "choice" or "freewill". Biblegod is about "you give everything to me or suffer for all eternity". It's not really a choice if that's your only option.

Get over such pathetic fiction.

-Nam

I can choose to believe it or not Nam.  I can choose to not believe in God and no fear of Judgement or hope of eternal life with nothing to look forward to except for a grave, or I can choose to believe and have something to look forward to, and still risk a grave in Hell.

You're quite mistaken here. Belief is not a choice. One must be convinced (by either good/bad, sound/unsound, evidence or argument). If you think it is a choice then please demonstrate by willing yourself to believe in real pink flying unicorns. 

p.s. - "Nothing to look forward to except the grave"?? Is that really what you think? That if you didn't believe in a god you wouldn't have anything (anything at all) to look forward to?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #68 on: June 19, 2013, 08:46:27 PM »
One must be convinced (by either good/bad, sound/unsound, evidence or argument).

Isn't that hopelesly circular? How do you come to believe that the evidence on which you are convinced to believe is good or bad evidence?
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline nebula

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #69 on: June 19, 2013, 08:46:50 PM »
I say this to both of you. If God exists, then choice and free will can exist simultaneously.  It would not be an illusion at all.  We exist in this time line, God spans the timeline simultaneously.

In my belief nothing we are aware of can exist simultaneously with God.   Things like life, free will, meaning, purpose, thought, awareness and time fall under this category.   They are all illusions.

Definition of NONDUALISM (Mirriam-Webster Online):
1
: a doctrine of classic Brahmanism holding that the essential unity of all is real whereas duality and plurality are phenomenal illusion and that matter is materialized energy which in turn is the temporal manifestation of an incorporeal spiritual eternal essence constituting the innermost self of all things
2
: any of various monistic or pluralistic theories of the universe


Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #70 on: June 19, 2013, 08:48:51 PM »
You're quite mistaken here. Belief is not a choice. One must be convinced (by either good/bad, sound/unsound, evidence or argument). If you think it is a choice then please demonstrate by willing yourself to believe in real pink flying unicorns.

I choose not to. 

p.s. - "Nothing to look forward to except the grave"?? Is that really what you think? That if you didn't believe in a god you wouldn't have anything (anything at all) to look forward to?

When your dead your dead if there is no afterlife.  Nothing to look forward to when you die.

Offline median

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #71 on: June 19, 2013, 08:55:13 PM »
One must be convinced (by either good/bad, sound/unsound, evidence or argument).

Isn't that hopelesly circular? How do you come to believe that the evidence on which you are convinced to believe is good or bad evidence?

That would depend upon the claim and depend upon the evidence. Either way, you still don't merely choose to believe something. As Christian philosopher J.P. Moreland has said, "You can't will yourself to believe there is a pink elephant in the room if there isn't." Whether or not you are convinced by good or bad evidence is completely irrelevant to the subject of how we come to believe things. We don't come to believe things by merely choosing. We must be convinced in some way.

Regarding the circularity charge, where and how?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #72 on: June 19, 2013, 08:57:03 PM »
In my belief nothing we are aware of can exist simultaneously with God.   Things like life, free will, meaning, purpose, thought, awareness and time fall under this category.   They are all illusions.

As it pertains to the God in the bible,  it mentions a couple of times about how time exists with HIM in a different form that it does with us.  "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end"  and  " But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. He is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance."-’Peter 3:8-9 "





Offline screwtape

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #73 on: June 19, 2013, 08:58:50 PM »
I choose not to. 

Oh, come on, don't be such a wet blanket.  Give it a try.  Seriously.  It's a good experiment and makes a really good point. 

We get a lot of flack from xians about how we choose to reject god.  But it was not a choice for me.  It was a realization that I could not believe any more.  I'm sorry to draw the comparison to Santa, but that is exactly what it was like.  Once I knew Santa was a fake, I could not unknow the things that lead me to that conclusion.  I was kinda pissed, because I felt like I lost something, or someone. 

It was the exact same feeling when I finally admitted to myself I was an atheist.  I'd known for some time that none of it added up and I'd tried to make compromises and excuses.  But I felt like I was losing something again.[1]

I have had a ton of xians tell me I just had to choose god again.  But I can't.  It would be like trying to choose to believe in Santa again. 

So, give it a try. Try to choose to believe in something you know is fictional.  Tell us how it goes.






 1. This guy describes it better:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25084.msg559484.html#msg559484
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What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Offline median

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #74 on: June 19, 2013, 08:58:56 PM »
I say this to both of you. If God exists, then choice and free will can exist simultaneously.  It would not be an illusion at all.  We exist in this time line, God spans the timeline simultaneously.

In my belief nothing we are aware of can exist simultaneously with God.   Things like life, free will, meaning, purpose, thought, awareness and time fall under this category.   They are all illusions.

Definition of NONDUALISM (Mirriam-Webster Online):
1
: a doctrine of classic Brahmanism holding that the essential unity of all is real whereas duality and plurality are phenomenal illusion and that matter is materialized energy which in turn is the temporal manifestation of an incorporeal spiritual eternal essence constituting the innermost self of all things
2
: any of various monistic or pluralistic theories of the universe

And we should believe this jumble of solipsist verbiage...why?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline nebula

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #75 on: June 19, 2013, 09:03:03 PM »
And we should believe this jumble of solipsist verbiage...why?

Who said you should believe anything?   Belief is an illusion.

Offline median

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #76 on: June 19, 2013, 09:03:39 PM »
I choose not to. 

Nice cop-out. Sounds like someone is too proud to admit when they're in error.




When your dead your dead if there is no afterlife.  Nothing to look forward to when you die.

This has absolutely nothing to do with whether or not you'd have anything to look forward to in life. Besides, why would you want to "look forward" to a non-existent fiction?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #77 on: June 19, 2013, 09:04:47 PM »
And we should believe this jumble of solipsist verbiage...why?

Who said you should believe anything?   Belief is an illusion.

And you know this...how? Again, this would depend upon how you would define that term. You are making claims without defining your terms. Rejected.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline nebula

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #78 on: June 19, 2013, 09:05:24 PM »
And please explain what is solipsistic about nondualism.   

Offline nebula

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #79 on: June 19, 2013, 09:07:11 PM »
And you know this...how? Again, this would depend upon how you would define that term. You are making claims without defining your terms. Rejected.

Who said I know?   Also, knowledge and terms are illusions.   

Offline median

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #80 on: June 19, 2013, 09:13:08 PM »
And please explain what is solipsistic about nondualism.

If you aren't willing to put your claims (that "all is illusion", or whatever) to the test, and to define your terms, then why should I explain anything? I should just say, "Nope, you're wrong" and leave it at that, right?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #81 on: June 19, 2013, 09:14:53 PM »
And you know this...how? Again, this would depend upon how you would define that term. You are making claims without defining your terms. Rejected.

Who said I know?   Also, knowledge and terms are illusions.

Are knowledge and terms also schmarbelfarben, blark, ducka ducka, and schimska?

If you don't know that your claims are true, why are you making them?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline magicmiles

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #82 on: June 19, 2013, 09:17:00 PM »

Regarding the circularity charge, where and how?

Well...if I believe something, I have been convinced that it is true, if I correctly understand you. How can you say that the evidence which convinces me is objectively bad? Isn't it just a matter of you being convinced it is bad?
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline nebula

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #83 on: June 19, 2013, 09:17:26 PM »
If you don't know that your claims are true, why are you making them?

It's just the way I see it.   It's only one perspective.   Believe what you want.   

Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #84 on: June 19, 2013, 09:21:11 PM »
I choose not to. 

Oh, come on, don't be such a wet blanket.  Give it a try.  Seriously.  It's a good experiment and makes a really good point. 

We get a lot of flack from xians about how we choose to reject god.  But it was not a choice for me.  It was a realization that I could not believe any more.  I'm sorry to draw the comparison to Santa, but that is exactly what it was like.  Once I knew Santa was a fake, I could not unknow the things that lead me to that conclusion.  I was kinda pissed, because I felt like I lost something, or someone. 

It was the exact same feeling when I finally admitted to myself I was an atheist.  I'd known for some time that none of it added up and I'd tried to make compromises and excuses.  But I felt like I was losing something again.[1]

I have had a ton of xians tell me I just had to choose god again.  But I can't.  It would be like trying to choose to believe in Santa again. 

So, give it a try. Try to choose to believe in something you know is fictional.  Tell us how it goes.
 1. This guy describes it better:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,25084.msg559484.html#msg559484

Okay I digress. There are some choices that I cannot make.   

Offline median

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #85 on: June 19, 2013, 09:21:36 PM »

Regarding the circularity charge, where and how?

Well...if I believe something, I have been convinced that it is true, if I correctly understand you. How can you say that the evidence which convinces me is objectively bad? Isn't it just a matter of you being convinced it is bad?

This "objectively" nonsense is a red-herring. I'm not concerned with absolute certainty of such things - and neither should you be. How can one be justified in thinking that X evidence is sound or unsound? Once again, that would depend upon the claim being made and the evidence which is being presented to support it.

Generally speaking making the determination as to whether a specific set of evidences/arguments is sound or unsound requires demonstration (in some fashion) to others. Are you trying to argue that all claims are equally valid?
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #86 on: June 19, 2013, 09:23:57 PM »
If you don't know that your claims are true, why are you making them?

It's just the way I see it.   It's only one perspective.   Believe what you want.

But of course, to use your words, you are seeing an illusion! So your belief that all is illusion is itself an illusion. So reality is not an illusion! Welcome to reality. It's not an illusion. Sorry to disappoint.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 09:25:29 PM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan