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Online Nam

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #29 on: June 16, 2013, 11:31:35 PM »
So you agree it was stupid?[1] also, you haven't proven to me that you're not stupid[2].

-Nam
 1. you are so easy
 2. in reference to you being just like every other Christian out there
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #30 on: June 16, 2013, 11:58:05 PM »
So you agree it was stupid?[1] also, you haven't proven to me that you're not stupid[2].

-Nam
 1. you are so easy
 2. in reference to you being just like every other Christian out there

Everybody is stupid to a certain degree.

I am not so stupid as to not have known you would respond with something like that.  I saw it coming a mile away.  Your types always do. 

I also haven't proved that I am stupid either.   8)

Online Nam

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #31 on: June 17, 2013, 12:06:10 AM »
No, everyone's an idiot. ;) my type? Please, enlighten me? If you actually know my type there's a +1 in it for you. I'll give you a hint: it's one word: no cheating.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #32 on: June 17, 2013, 12:07:26 AM »
No, everyone's an idiot. ;) my type? Please, enlighten me? If you actually know my type there's a +1 in it for you. I'll give you a hint: it's one word: no cheating.

-Nam

Troll   ;)  but a pleasant one.

Online Nam

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #33 on: June 17, 2013, 12:11:57 AM »
Wrong. Trolls don't last 8,000+ posts on this website. So sorry. You'll learn pretty soon.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #34 on: June 17, 2013, 12:14:50 AM »
Wrong. Trolls don't last 8,000+ posts on this website. So sorry. You'll learn pretty soon.

-Nam

That is fair and I meant no insult with the word I guessed.

Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #35 on: June 17, 2013, 12:18:01 AM »
Nam..  you never said that I could have only one guess.

How about ..funny.

Online Nam

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #36 on: June 17, 2013, 12:20:28 AM »
You can't insult me. Actually the one and only thing that I found insulting in the past really has no effect on me anymore. This doesn't mean I can't get upset or angry (none of which concerning our conversations) but that's usually toward things I find ignorant but not insulting.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Online Nam

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #37 on: June 17, 2013, 12:21:45 AM »
Nam..  you never said that I could have only one guess.

How about ..funny.

I am funny, at times. Most of my positive karma is from making people laugh but that's not it, either.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #38 on: June 17, 2013, 12:55:47 AM »
So you agree it was stupid?[1] also, you haven't proven to me that you're not stupid[2]

-Nam
 1. you are so easy
 2. in reference to you being just like every other Christian out there

5 Stupid Quotes

Stupid is as stupid does, Sir.  -- Forrest Gump
I don't wanna be a stupid girl.  -- Pink
Stupid man, hitchhiking out of a good life.  -- Lou Reed
Life is hard.  It's harder if you're stupid.  -- John Wayne
The media works in sound bites, they can make you look like a genius or stupid. -- Kato Kaelin
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #39 on: June 17, 2013, 12:57:07 AM »
You can't insult me. Actually the one and only thing that I found insulting in the past really has no effect on me anymore. This doesn't mean I can't get upset or angry (none of which concerning our conversations) but that's usually toward things I find ignorant but not insulting.

-Nam

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberry.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Online Nam

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #40 on: June 17, 2013, 01:22:56 AM »
You can't insult me. Actually the one and only thing that I found insulting in the past really has no effect on me anymore. This doesn't mean I can't get upset or angry (none of which concerning our conversations) but that's usually toward things I find ignorant but not insulting.

-Nam

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberry.

That's not insulting me, that's insulting my parents. I will defend my mother from such insults to her, my father I don't give a shit about.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #41 on: June 17, 2013, 01:37:33 AM »
You can't insult me. Actually the one and only thing that I found insulting in the past really has no effect on me anymore. This doesn't mean I can't get upset or angry (none of which concerning our conversations) but that's usually toward things I find ignorant but not insulting.

-Nam

Your mother was a hamster and your father smelled of elderberry.

That's not insulting me, that's insulting my parents. I will defend my mother from such insults to her, my father I don't give a shit about.

-Nam

Actually, I think hamsters are quite cute, especially those tiny roborovskis.  I'm not sure what an elderberry smells like but I heard the wands made from elder bark are pretty badass.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Online Nam

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #42 on: June 17, 2013, 01:58:42 AM »
Hey, if I could play in my own wheel, and shit pellets, I would love that. ;)

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline screwtape

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #43 on: June 17, 2013, 07:48:53 AM »
Nam, WalkingDeath,

Can we please get back on topic?

Thanks.

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #44 on: June 17, 2013, 08:10:08 AM »
The entity who is asking me to kill my son would have to first prove he is God, and would have to explain why I would have to slay my child.  For example... this being would have to show me the future and show me what will happen if my son is not killed. If this being does prove it, and if this being show's me a proper reason for why my son would have to die.. then so be it.   I cannot kill unless my life or other lives are threatened, so this being would have to be very convincing.

It certainly would have to be more than a big booming voice telling me to do it.   IF that were to occour, I would head to mental health services and tell them what is happening to me.


It's been asked already, prior to your post, but what about Abraham?
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis 22 &version=NRSV

We are not given very much about Abe and yhwh's relationship.  We know they met, negotiated and made a contract.[1]  But it does not make any mention of yhwh proving himself to Abe.  yhwh visited one time and appeared completely indistinguishable from a man.[2]  So it seems to me that if yhwh were to ask you to sacrifice your child, it would be as a test of obedience, like Abraham's.  And you would be unlikely to receive any more proof that it was yhwh than Abe got.  Are you saying you would deny yhwh?

And that is the moral of that story.  yhwh wants blind, stupid obedience.   He wanted Eve and her slow witted mate to follow his every command, amorally and without judgment.  But when they learned morality and exercised judgment equal to his, he punished them.  He demanded Abraham amorally follow his every command.  He demanded it of the hebrew people, who seldom followed and were rebuked horribly for it time and time again.  It was what yhwh wanted from the beginning, but has never been able to get. 

Why was he unable to make people the way he wanted them?  Or why was he unwilling to convince people that his ways were in their own self interest?  Is he a loser?  A failure?
 1. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2017&version=NRSV
 2. http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Genesis%2018&version=NRSV
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 09:20:28 AM by screwtape »
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Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #45 on: June 17, 2013, 12:00:08 PM »
Nam, WalkingDeath,

Can we please get back on topic?

Thanks.


My bad, too.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #46 on: June 17, 2013, 12:08:45 PM »



It's been asked already, prior to your post, but what about Abraham?

And that is the moral of that story.  yhwh wants blind, stupid obedience.   

When I have read about or heard about this story writers and pastors like to imply (spin)  that Abraham's faith in gods love was so strong that he just knew god would supply the ram (?I think it was a ram) and he wouldn't really have to kill Isaac if he just showed his obedience...
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline viocjit

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #47 on: June 17, 2013, 12:28:28 PM »
If God asked you to sacrifice/kill your son to prove your love for Him. Would you do it?

The majority of theist will say YES.

Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #48 on: June 17, 2013, 03:30:13 PM »


Quote
The majority of theist will say YES.

If you are talking about the U.S. only I would probably say that you are correct.  Oh and then there is the middle east.  But as for the majority worldwide?  I am not so sure about that answer.  The zealous crazy theists would do it in a heartbeat.  But like I said before, I am sure there would be some who would need some answers first.  If some entity told me to do such a thing,  it would have to prove it is God and would have to give me a very good reason to do such a thing.  I would not do it just because some entity who calls itself God were to answer with only "Because I COMMAND it!"  If that were to happen, I would submit myself to mental health services.

And YES Screwtape... a few of us WERE off topic.   My apologies.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #49 on: June 17, 2013, 07:18:21 PM »
No.  I would not believe I was hearing from god.  I would seek medical attention.
Does this apply when Gods asks you to do good things or just evil things?
There's no right there's no wrong,there's just popular opinion (Brad Pitt as Jeffery Goines in 12 monkeys)

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #50 on: June 17, 2013, 07:50:56 PM »
If God asked you to sacrifice/kill your son to prove your love for Him. Would you do it?

The majority of theist will say YES.
I suspect that neither of us have data to back up our positions (I'm going by gut and incidental experience with the people I know), but I disagree with this assessment.  I'm pretty sure most of the people I know simply compartmentalize to a significant degree.  They simultaneously hold the positions god is the ultimate authority/whatever he says goes and under no circumstance would I willfully murder my child.  The former position is something that can be said with an extraordinarily high degree of confidence that it will never be tested to the full extreme, and can therefore simply agree with their position without thinking about at all.  The way it is reconciled logically is that it is simply an impossible circumstance for god to ask them to murder their child.  They simply have faith that this is the case - it doesn't really matter what other consequences that logic has (i.e. limitations on god's power, previous cruelty, errors in the bible, etc.).  It simply is.

The latter claim, that they would not cause death to their child, is something that gets tested constantly, as they have direct experience of the child being 'not dead'.

If presented with the question where they were forced to answer honestly, they'd say 'no'.
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Online Nam

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2013, 08:11:49 PM »
My mom's a Christian and even though, I am sure, she wanted to kill me at some point, she wouldn't; I don't even think if Biblegod ordered her to. Family is very important to her, as it is with many Christians, and people in general.

Also, if they were so hellbent on following Biblegod's laws; then most children today would be dead for not obeying their parents, as it says in the Bible:

Exodus 21:15
Deuteronomy 21:19-21
Leviticus 20:9
Matthew 15:4
Mark 7:9-10

Etc.,

So, I think the actual answer to the question is: no.

-Nam

This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2013, 10:31:13 PM »
No.  I would not believe I was hearing from god.  I would seek medical attention.
Does this apply when Gods asks you to do good things or just evil things?

I never hear gods tell me to do anything.  I guess my faith isn't strong enough.  I am very skeptical when I hear people talk about conversations they had with god as if they were dialogs.  I sometimes do things because it is the right thing to do.  It may or may not be gods plan.  Right is right with or without a god as far as I'm concerned.  Your next question will be why do I even believe.  I'm not even sure myself.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2013, 10:39:37 PM »

The latter claim, that they would not cause death to their child, is something that gets tested constantly, as they have direct experience of the child being 'not dead'.

My son had surgery to correct a birth defect when he was 6 months old.  It required general anesthesia.  I was actually presumptuous enough to "threaten" god in a prayer that if my son died I would never speak to him or set foot in another church or sing in another choir again.  My son is 'not dead'.  I'm so badass.
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline median

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #54 on: June 18, 2013, 02:56:20 AM »
<snip>

Ever heard of a strawman?

I wasn't making a strawman.   I was stating my own view.   Self consciousness is an illusion.

That very much depends upon how one defines "consciousness" and how one defines "illusion".
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline median

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #55 on: June 18, 2013, 03:01:46 AM »
If a god does exist and he showed up in front of me with unassailable proof that he is real, and he asked me to kill my son, I'd tell him he may be all powerful but he doesn't have the ability to lay a guilt trip on me. I'd tell him to f**k off so fast I wouldn't have time to include the asterisks. Sure, they might be my last two words, but at least I'd die satisfied that I wasn't a tool for a power-hungry despot.

The why's of his request would be irrelevant. The most he could come up with would be a litany of excuses, and I've learned from a couple of women in my life not to pay attention to any of those.

If I instead decided to do his dirty work for him and then earned a  trip to heaven, it would suck if I had to spend an eternity with the dude that had me to off my kid.

Game playing is something humans do, so they tossed stories like that into the bible in an effort to impress underlings with the supposed power of their "god". Bribery and threats don't work on me that easily. Even the real, human ones.


Took the words right out of my subconscious. Ignore the made-up Yahweh and his absurd arbitrary commands. I need say no more.
« Last Edit: June 18, 2013, 03:07:38 AM by median »
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Carl Sagan

Offline screwtape

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #56 on: June 18, 2013, 08:30:05 AM »
When I have read about or heard about this story writers and pastors like to imply (spin)  that Abraham's faith in gods love was so strong that he just knew god would supply the ram (?I think it was a ram) and he wouldn't really have to kill Isaac if he just showed his obedience...

I've heard that excuse as well.  However, I find it weak and unpersuasive.  It is completely non-scriptural and pure speculation.  Why would Abe have expected that?  It is very popular amongst xians to say that yhwh is free to kill us at any time.  He made us, so he has the right to end us.  yhwh gave him the son in the first place, so it is his right to take him back.  This is all yhwh was doing with Isaac.  Only he was asking (demanding?) Abe do it for him.    yhwh has a habit of ordering people to do his killing for him.

Also, there is good evidence that in the original version of the story, Abe went through with it and killed Isaac. [1]

 1. http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php/topic,20275.msg463304.html#msg463304
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Offline nebula

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Re: Question to theists
« Reply #57 on: June 18, 2013, 08:55:41 AM »
That very much depends upon how one defines "consciousness" and how one defines "illusion".

There is no possibility that a person can ever make a choice about anything.   In the case presented in the OP, an apparent decision will be made and it will be based on the genetics and environmental conditioning of that part of the universe we call the person faced with this choice.  This supposed free agent will have no control over his or her actions whatsoever, free will and awareness itself being completely illusory or not real.