Author Topic: Free will, the world wide flood, and hell...  (Read 1256 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline The Gawd

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1654
  • Darwins +147/-6
  • Gender: Male
  • WWGHA Member
Free will, the world wide flood, and hell...
« on: June 15, 2013, 08:30:48 AM »
I know, just humor me for one thread...

So how do Christians make all this fit together?

Wouldn't a worldwide flood violate the freewill of all the living creatures on earth? And wouldn't wiping out the population deny these people of their ability to change and accept the Yahweh myth? And by judging living people instead of dead people didn't yahweh basically send them to hell because he wanted them in hell?

Wow, good ol yahweh. Dude is the ultimate idiot even in his own autobiography which is supposed to be about how great he is.

Offline Nick

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 13110
  • Darwins +374/-9
  • Gender: Male
Re: Free will, the world wide flood, and hell...
« Reply #1 on: June 15, 2013, 11:39:19 AM »
Like I said, we got the "special ed" of Gods.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Online One Above All

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 14666
  • Darwins +607/-65
  • Supreme ruler of the multiverse; All In One
Re: Free will, the world wide flood, and hell...
« Reply #2 on: June 15, 2013, 04:14:17 PM »
To quote myself on another forum:
See, the problem here is that you're trying to use logic.
My names are many, yet I am One.
-Orion, son of Fire and Light, Sol Invictus.

Religions need books because they don't have gods.


Online rev45

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1313
  • Darwins +59/-2
  • Gender: Male
  • Did your parents raise you to be an idiot?
Re: Free will, the world wide flood, and hell...
« Reply #3 on: June 15, 2013, 04:16:43 PM »
The god of the OT never seemed to be very keen on free will.  He took a direct hand in hardening Pharaoh and his official's hearts as Moses was wanting to lead Israel out of Egypt.  And because of it the Pharaoh and his army were drowned.  Before that was God slaughtering the firstborn.  I can't remember if the story says if adults were also killed but we know that Pharaoh's child, prisoners' children, and the firstborn of animals were all killed by God.  I'm sure some would say "Moses tried to warn them" but as I said before, God was the one responsible for the death and plagues.  He clearly says it in Exodus 10. 
Then the Lord said to Moses, “Go to Pharaoh, for I have hardened his heart and the hearts of his officials so that I may perform these signs of mine among them 2 that you may tell your children and grandchildren how I dealt harshly with the Egyptians and how I performed my signs among them, and that you may know that I am the Lord.”
He goes on a murder and destruction spree just to show off that he is a god.  No savior, no chance to redeem themselves.  Just death by the hand of a fucked up god.

But let's look to the future.  The book of Revelation is supposedly a book of prophecy.  It mentions that when Jesus returns he will be riding his My Little Pony TM with a sword coming out of his mouth.  Millions of people will die.  This supposedly will happen and nothing mankind can do will prevent it from happening.  There is a bullet readied for those people in God's gun chamber.  He knows that one day he is gonna snap and when he does, death and destruction will follow.  If the book of Revelation were true then the future is already written and no amount of free will can stop it.
Here read a book.  It's free.

Could a being create the fifty billion galaxies, each with two hundred billion stars, then rejoice in the smell of burning goat flesh?   Ron Patterson

Offline neopagan

  • Reader
  • ******
  • Posts: 1172
  • Darwins +88/-3
  • Gender: Male
Re: Free will, the world wide flood, and hell...
« Reply #4 on: June 15, 2013, 05:51:29 PM »
I think "free will" is a xian invention to get skygod off the hook... Where is this theology clearly taught in his bestseller? 

Warning.. Calvinism apologist at work below (aka dodging the issue and letting ywhw slither away):
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving their god is.  - neopagan

Offline Graybeard

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 8435
  • Darwins +884/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Is this going somewhere?
Re: Free will, the world wide flood, and hell...
« Reply #5 on: June 15, 2013, 06:25:51 PM »
Christians struggle with the idea of "free will". This is not unreasonable as there is no such thing, only an illusion of "free will". They want it to exist, despite the fact that this means that there can be no "God's Great Plan" to draw the earth to Armageddon.

The Calvinist apologist is good but he, like any good apologist, simply ignores the verses of the NT that state that there is no free will.

Romans:9:14 What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15 For he says to Moses,
“I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
    and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion.”[f]
16 It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God’s mercy. Here we see that, regardless of what you have done, it's God's decision where you end up.

17 For Scripture says to Pharaoh: “I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth.”[g] 18 Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden. This is the example posted earlier. God made Pharaoh bad so He could show how good He was by saving the Israelites. Yet where do we think Pharoah is? Heaven or Hell?
19 One of you will say to me: “Then why does God still blame us? For who is able to resist his will?” This is a very good question.

20 But who are you, a human being, to talk back to God? “Shall what is formed say to the one who formed it, ‘Why did you make me like this?’”[h] And basically the answer is "Piss off, who do you think you are even asking that question."
21 Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for special purposes and some for common use?
22 What if God, although choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? This is quite amazing, Paul says "God puts some people on earth to live, die and stoke the fires of hell. Hello people! It's part of His Plan! Duh!" I bet the crowd weren't at all fooled by that one.

23 What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— Don't forget, Paul is talking to the Romans, who think that only Jews can go to heaven (Indeed, that is what Jesus said.) So now his weasel words are saying, "Ah! Yes, but now we know that God makes assholes and good people and the assholes go to hell, and that he does this stuff just to show how powerful He is to the Jews! And then he adds...

 24 even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles? 25 As he says in Hosea:
“I will call them ‘my people’ who are not my people;
    and I will call her ‘my loved one’ who is not my loved one,” Yes, that's right, Romans can go to heaven (Let me tell you about my "EZ tithing Plan") God says so!

And if you look at Hosea:1:9 you will see that Paul has quoted out of context (at least with modern Bibles.)

So, Christians know there is no free will really but they lie about it and pretend there is.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2013, 06:28:37 PM by Graybeard »
Nobody says “There are many things that we thought were natural processes, but now know that a god did them.”