Author Topic: Does God's love people in hell??????  (Read 7227 times)

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Offline Astreja

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #116 on: June 19, 2013, 10:20:36 AM »
The stories of Zeus, Aries and Odin are just that.  Stories.

<nitpick>Do you mean Ares, the Greek god of war, or the astrological sign Aries?</nitpick>

Personally I find Oðinn vastly more believable than the god of the Bible -- I subscribe to the hypothesis that he was actually a ruler of one of the Norse clans, and was deified by his people.  (It also doesn't hurt that I happen to be descended from the Norse bloodline, and call him Dad. 8))
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Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #117 on: June 19, 2013, 10:33:52 AM »

Quote from: jdawg70
People do not have any spiritual experiences involving Yhwh either.  They claim they do.  Just like the people in the past that claimed to have had spiritual experiences with Zeus or any number of deities you do not subscribe to.  If you have any other evidence to suggest that the people claiming to have spiritual experiences (kinda squishy on the definition of 'spiritual' by-the-by), by all means trot it out.

I explained my definition of spirituality in my introduction. You may refer to that.

Quote
While you accept the possibilities that a creator god made the universe or no such creator god created the universe, you seem to think it more probable that a creator god did do it?  If so, why?

Because is appears that everything that has a beginning in this universe has an end.  Therefore whatever/whoever created the universe would have to be infinite. If the universe had a beginning, which most scientists say it did, something had to be the catalyst to cause it to exist. Something just cannot start on it's own unless something else forces it to do so.




Offline screwtape

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #118 on: June 19, 2013, 11:01:48 AM »
No. People do not have any spiritual experiences involving Zeus, nor are there any prophets of Zeus.

??Wha...?  What do you mean?  People used to have Zeus experiences all the time!  There used to be an oracle on every islet in the Aegean!  I just know that if you opened your heart to Zeus, he would answer.  If he does not, then you have done it wrongly.  Just try it again, only more sincerely.

And let's not forget his human children - Perseus and Hercules, to name just two.  Zeus had dozens of human children.  yhwh - just one.  Not very fecund. 

You have not proven Zeus does not exist.  You have only alleged it.  Just because Zeus (et al) have fallen out of popularity doe not mean he does not exist. 

Besides, all those alleged yhwh experiences are without evidence.  How do you know it was yhwh?  They can be explained by rather mundane psychology.  Every religious experience has been recreated in a lab.[1] Or, if you want to go another route, people of other religions also have similar experiences. 

Yhwh is roughly translated as "he who creates" or "that which creates" The universe is here. It was wither created by God or it was not. (Being an agnostic theist I do accept both possibilities)

Oh, come on.  He's named "he who creates" so that makes him more credible?  Really?  If his name was Jealous, would that make any difference?  What if the god of the OT was really two different gods?  Suppose one was called "yhwh" and the other was "elohim"?  Would that impact your opinion?


I fully accept that as a possibility. I personally don't believe so but that is my choice to make.

How much do you fully accept that possibility?  I think when it comes to reality, there are no choices.  So for me, when reality is confronting one of my beliefs, even one I love, I have to accept reality.  Because reality is all that exists for me to deal with.  Are you willing to change your mind, or are you going to waste precious time and brain power proving your beloved belief?

Being loving, forgiving and non-judgmental is universally moral.   Treating others with the same respect that you would like to be treated with is universally moral, even if Confucius taught it previously.

Actually, the Golden RuleWiki predates Confucius by 1200 - 1500 years.  It has been found in Middle Kingdom Egyptian writing that date as far back as 2000 bce and was all over the middle and near east from then on. 

So, jesus H was stating the obvious.  Old news.  A 1700 year old cliche.  BFD.  That sets a pretty low bar for "Best Teacher Evar".  Not only that, but that is not a complete ethical system.

If Jesus was telling the truth,

That is a giant if, and one that I have no reason to accept.

Teaching people to forgive others, not to seek revenge and to be merciful are not useful practices?

No.  Those are lofty platitudes. And I'm not even convinced jesus H said any of that.

And which jesus H are we talking about?  There are several.  How about the one who tells people to abandon their families to follow him?  How about the one who says if someone is beating the shit out of you, you should let them punch you on the other side of your face too and not fight back?

You do not have a consistent, coherent jesus H, because the gospels represent different sects with different ideas about who jesus H was and what his message was.  Thus, you do not have a consistent, coherent, complete ethic either.  All that had to be woven together after the fact by Paul and the early church.

So I should just go and burn the houses down of the people who caused me harm in my life?

It worked for the vikings.

So if someone kills one of my loved ones I should kill them or make them suffer? IF someone were to rape my nieces I should torture the rapists for doing do? 

Is that not what we as a society collectively do?  Do you forgive those people?  I hardly think so. Nor do I think forgiving them is a virtue. 


No.  There are ways to prove if "Nessy" is real or not.  Nobody wants to waste the money and resources doing so.  Too much risk of it being a falsehood.

This is what I've been trying to get at.  You say there are ways to prove nonexistence.  Let's have it.  Set aside the practical matters, like cost.  How exactly would you go about proving Nessy's nonexistence? 

Before you do that, you might try using the search function.  See what comes up for Screwtape's Dog.
 1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/God_helmet
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Offline Mrjason

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #119 on: June 19, 2013, 11:03:21 AM »
Because is appears that everything that has a beginning in this universe has an end.
 
Like what? It appears that everything in the universe changes state from time to time but nothing ever completely disappears.

Therefore whatever/whoever created the universe would have to be infinite. If the universe had a beginning, which most scientists say it did, something had to be the catalyst to cause it to exist.


The universe as it is now had a beginning where it began to look like it does today. That doesn't mean all of the constituent parts were not there

Something just cannot start on it's own unless something else forces it to do so.

And who is god's god that started him?
 

Offline Jag

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #120 on: June 19, 2013, 11:07:00 AM »

Quote from: jdawg70
People do not have any spiritual experiences involving Yhwh either.  They claim they do.  Just like the people in the past that claimed to have had spiritual experiences with Zeus or any number of deities you do not subscribe to.  If you have any other evidence to suggest that the people claiming to have spiritual experiences (kinda squishy on the definition of 'spiritual' by-the-by), by all means trot it out.

I explained my definition of spirituality in my introduction. You may refer to that.
That's very nice, but did you miss the actual request in your rush to refer him to another post which doesn't address the request either?


Quote
If the universe had a beginning, which most scientists say it did, something had to be the catalyst to cause it to exist. Something just cannot start on it's own unless something else forces it to do so.

So, rather than follow up on what else scientists have to say about the origins of the universe, you decided instead to believe that a magic man in the sky is responsible. Interesting that you will refer to science to make a point, but fail to see why that isn't a good option for you of all people to be using in this case.
"It's hard to, but I'm starting to believe some of you actually believe these things.  That is completely beyond my ability to understand if that is really the case, but things never cease to amaze me."

Offline Astreja

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #121 on: June 19, 2013, 12:20:31 PM »
So I should just go and burn the houses down of the people who caused me harm in my life?

It worked for the vikings.

At least till the stench of burnt houses dropped the property values, and Olaf the Developer bought the whole neighbourhood and converted it to condos Christianity.  Not trying that stunt again; next time we'll just file a strongly-worded complaint through the Neighbourhood Association.
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Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #122 on: June 19, 2013, 04:00:06 PM »


Quote from: Jag
So, rather than follow up on what else scientists have to say about the origins of the universe, you decided instead to believe that a magic man in the sky is responsible. Interesting that you will refer to science to make a point, but fail to see why that isn't a good option for you of all people to be using in this case.

I find it rather silly when people refer to God as a "magic man in the sky" but I will entertain you for the time being. I also find it even more silly, when theists get insulted when they perceive that someone has insulted God. They are NOT God so why are they insulted? 

I have followed up on what scientists say about the universe, and I can also simultaneously surmise that if science proves how the universe was formed, it was God that used that science to create it.  I can use both options simultaneously and not be a fault.




Offline Dante

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #123 on: June 19, 2013, 04:14:47 PM »

I find it rather silly when people refer to God as a "magic man in the sky" but I will entertain you for the time being.

We use "magic man in the sky", or some other variation, so as to not seem like we're picking solely on xians. It's applicable to most religions.

Quote
I also find it even more silly, when theists get insulted when they perceive that someone has insulted God. They are NOT God so why are they insulted? 

Good question. Of course, one answer is that gods really have no power to defend themselves, so their believers must do it for them.

Quote
I have followed up on what scientists say about the universe, and I can also simultaneously surmise that if science proves how the universe was formed, it was God that used that science to create it.  I can use both options simultaneously and not be a fault.

True enough, but that means your god slips further and further away from reality.
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #124 on: June 19, 2013, 04:17:52 PM »
 
Quote from: Mrjason
Like what? It appears that everything in the universe changes state from time to time but nothing ever completely disappears.

Correct. The matter and energy in the universe as it is now can neither be created or destroyed. If it was designed, that would have been a part of it's design.


Quote
The universe as it is now had a beginning where it began to look like it does today. That doesn't mean all of the constituent parts were not there

Agreed. I never claimed that God created the universe out of nothing. But technically it would be nothing as it pertains to this universe. Time is a fabric of the universe.  The matter and energy used to create the universe did not exist in this universe until the universe was initialized.

Quote
And who is god's god that started him?

God would have to always have existed and will have always exist. There are a few biblical references that show this.  We exist in a fixed timeline...God does not.
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 04:23:42 PM by WakingDeath »

Offline Dante

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #125 on: June 19, 2013, 04:22:25 PM »
 
Quote from: Mrjason

[And who is god's god that started him?

God would have to always have existed and will have always exist. There are a few biblical references that show this.  We exist in a fixed timeline...God does not.

So why is it such a stretch for you to imagine that the consituent parts of the universe have always existed, and will always exist?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #126 on: June 19, 2013, 04:35:18 PM »
So why is it such a stretch for you to imagine that the consituent parts of the universe have always existed, and will always exist?

I already gave my opinion about the energy that was used to create the universe. I believe that it would have had to exist outside of the universe as we know it.  As far as it always existing, well of course it will.  It will eventually be a thin layer of it's constituent particles, but it will always be there in some form. 

Online Azdgari

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #127 on: June 19, 2013, 04:39:47 PM »
The universe is not subject to your opinion.  If all you have is your opinion, then perhaps "I don't know" is a better tack to take...
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #128 on: June 19, 2013, 04:44:53 PM »
The universe is not subject to your opinion.  If all you have is your opinion, then perhaps "I don't know" is a better tack to take...

What we don't know about it is subject to anybodies opinion.

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #129 on: June 19, 2013, 05:20:57 PM »
So our opinions have metaphysical power over things we don't know about?

What if someone else knows about it?  Does our opinion change it then, and do they get to observe the change?

What we don't know, we don't know, and making definite statements about it based on our opinion is dishonest as we're pretending to know more than we do.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #130 on: June 19, 2013, 05:31:00 PM »
Before you do that, you might try using the search function.  See what comes up for Screwtape's Dog.

I did.  It showed nothing.  Unless Screwtape's Dog existed here before, that would be evidence of absence.  Screwtape's Dog is not absent. It was never there.

« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 05:45:25 PM by WakingDeath »

Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #131 on: June 19, 2013, 05:48:57 PM »
So our opinions have metaphysical power over things we don't know about?

I didn't say that.

What if someone else knows about it?  Does our opinion change it then, and do they get to observe the change?

Only if they are capable of showing us.  I will explain my spiritual experience in another thread sometime.

What we don't know, we don't know, and making definite statements about it based on our opinion is dishonest as we're pretending to know more than we do.

Who's pretending. My opinions could be wrong. So could yours.  I am not pretending to believe anything. 

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #132 on: June 19, 2013, 05:52:26 PM »
"God exists" is dishonest for the reason I just described.
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #133 on: June 19, 2013, 05:57:57 PM »
"God exists" is dishonest for the reason I just described.

I never claimed that God existed.  It is just my opinion that He does.  I could very well be wrong, or I could very well be correct.

Are you pushing me man?   Did you not read what I have posted?

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #134 on: June 19, 2013, 06:12:25 PM »


Quote from: Jag
So, rather than follow up on what else scientists have to say about the origins of the universe, you decided instead to believe that a magic man in the sky is responsible. Interesting that you will refer to science to make a point, but fail to see why that isn't a good option for you of all people to be using in this case.

I find it rather silly when people refer to God as a "magic man in the sky" but I will entertain you for the time being. I also find it even more silly, when theists get insulted when they perceive that someone has insulted God. They are NOT God so why are they insulted? 

I have followed up on what scientists say about the universe, and I can also simultaneously surmise that if science proves how the universe was formed, it was God that used that science to create it.  I can use both options simultaneously and not be a fault.
Why was science non existent at first,,,,then magic and now real? Sciences as it stands does not have all the answers it needs to explain everything,but at least its on the path.

 There is no science in the Bible because it was not inspired by a God,but was written by humans ignorant of ANY scientific method. If a god inspired the Bible we would not have dragons and monsters or dinosaur fossils unexplained. Was this God ignorant of basic scientific methods?

 People interested in early scientific method....what usually happened to them?
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 06:20:37 PM by 12 Monkeys »
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #135 on: June 19, 2013, 06:18:48 PM »
WD your 'spiritual" experience could be dismissed by science explaining it (if possible),by Hindus,Muslims,Jews or any other people of any other religious faction with "spiritual" stories of their own from their "gods".

 I myself have had spiritual experiences,in dreams and visions. Turns out my spiritual experience were of the supernatural beings I was brought up with....easily dismissed by you as nothing I am sure
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Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #136 on: June 19, 2013, 06:19:20 PM »
There is no science in the Bible because it was not inspired by a God,but was written by humans ignorant of ANY scientific method. If a god inspired the Bible we would not have dragons and monsters or dinosaur fossils unexplained. Was this God ignorant of basic scientific methods?

Inspired by God and written by God are two entirely different things. God did not write one word in that book.  Theists who refer to the bible as "God's Word" don't know what they are talking about, nor have they actually read the bible as it is.  The Word described in the bible does not refer to the bible. It refers to Christ.

Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #137 on: June 19, 2013, 06:21:52 PM »
WD your 'spiritual" experience could be dismissed by science explaining it (if possible),by Hindus,Muslims,Jews or any other people of any other religious faction with "spiritual" stories of their own from their "gods".

 I myself have had spiritual experiences,in dreams and visions. Turns out my spiritual experience were of the supernatural beings I was brought up with....easily dismissed by you as nothing I am sure

My "spiritual experience" was nothing of the sort. It was a wide awake real life series of events.  No dreams and no visions. I will explain it in another thread, Okay?  We are far enough off topic as it is.

Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #138 on: June 19, 2013, 06:22:50 PM »
There is no science in the Bible because it was not inspired by a God,but was written by humans ignorant of ANY scientific method. If a god inspired the Bible we would not have dragons and monsters or dinosaur fossils unexplained. Was this God ignorant of basic scientific methods?

Inspired by God and written by God are two entirely different things. God did not write one word in that book.  Theists who refer to the bible as "God's Word" don't know what they are talking about, nor have they actually read the bible as it is.  The Word described in the bible does not refer to the bible. It refers to Christ.
Why were the inspired words from this god absent of any scientific method?
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Offline 12 Monkeys

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #139 on: June 19, 2013, 06:24:24 PM »
WD your 'spiritual" experience could be dismissed by science explaining it (if possible),by Hindus,Muslims,Jews or any other people of any other religious faction with "spiritual" stories of their own from their "gods".

 I myself have had spiritual experiences,in dreams and visions. Turns out my spiritual experience were of the supernatural beings I was brought up with....easily dismissed by you as nothing I am sure

My "spiritual experience" was nothing of the sort. It was a wide awake real life series of events.  No dreams and no visions. I will explain it in another thread, Okay?  We are far enough off topic as it is.
By all means start another thread....if the outcome of the dream event and the real-time event have the same end result what is the difference?
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Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #140 on: June 19, 2013, 06:32:17 PM »
Why were the inspired words from this god absent of any scientific method?

The people who wrote the bible were not scientists. 
« Last Edit: June 19, 2013, 08:03:14 PM by WakingDeath »

Offline ParkingPlaces

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #141 on: June 19, 2013, 07:28:28 PM »
WD

It is of course fine to have an opinion about a god existing. Postive or negative. However, if you think there is a god and then use misunderstandings and simplistic over generalizations about science to back up your opinion, you end up sounding kind of silly.

It is bad enough when people fill the gaps in human knowledge with their god and say that his existence is the only explanation. But when people fill their ignorance with their god, it gets embarrassing.

If you are not inspired to learn enough about science to argue against it cogently, you might try sticking to moral issues and and leave the physical world alone. You are not helping your cause otherwise.

It is the job of science to explore, discover, invent and theorize, among other things. It is an ongoing process that will never be able to discover everything. Religion takes it upon itself to tell us it has all the important answers already. Which would be less of a problem if any of the religious explanations matched reality in useful quantities. They don't. I tend to assume that Christians and muslims in particular are very interested in there being an afterlife, and they seem forced by their hopes to mold this life in such a way that it end up looking consistent with said afterlife. Dissing science is one tactic of believers. And most practice what they preach by not knowing diddley about it.

I would love there to be some sort of afterlife that I could enjoy. The ill-defined christian heaven holds no appeal, but if after death I could continue on in some other form and enjoy the universe a bit more, I'd love it. However, my hopes for such things, my opinion that there should be an afterlife, are completely irrelevant because they do not match anything we know about death. Hence I ignore my hopes because I know there is nothing to base them on.

As Azdgari said a few posts back, the universe is not subject to your opinion. Nor is it subject to mine or anyone else's. Through science, we humans do our best to take biases out of the picture as we search for truth. (I don't for a second claim that science is without any bias. Scientists exist within cultures, and said cultures have remarkable power over individuals and institutions. But science does what it can to minimize such influences. ) Religions must, by their very nature, keep their own biases on the front line of the debate and spend most of their time insisting they are truths. They even go so far as to claim that the lack of proof is in and of itself proof that something powerful and intelligent is responsible for the universe.

I personally prefer to go where the evidence takes us, even if it means that I don't get to comfort myself in my old age about a pending "streets of gold" experience. The pursuit of truth is far more important to me than is fooling myself for my own convenience.

Jesus, the cracker flavored treat!

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #142 on: June 19, 2013, 08:08:37 PM »
I never claimed that God existed.  It is just my opinion that He does.  I could very well be wrong, or I could very well be correct.

The existence, or lack thereof, of anything in the universe is not a matter of opinion.  It is a matter of fact that is right or wrong.

And unless you don't think your opinion is any more reasonable than the alternatives (in which case it wouldn't really be an opinion you held, would it?), you're at the very least saying that you know of good reasons to hold your opinion in contradiction of other options.  Which would still be dishonest, because you don't, hence the manner in which you're characterizing it as an opinion.

Are you pushing me man?   Did you not read what I have posted?

Yes.  Did you read what you have posted?
I have not encountered any mechanical malfunctioning in my spirit.  It works every single time I need it to.

Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #143 on: June 19, 2013, 08:27:42 PM »
It is of course fine to have an opinion about a god existing. Postive or negative. However, if you think there is a god and then use misunderstandings and simplistic over generalizations about science to back up your opinion, you end up sounding kind of silly.

Says you.   I never said that I was here to prove anything. Ever.

It is bad enough when people fill the gaps in human knowledge with their god and say that his existence is the only explanation. But when people fill their ignorance with their god, it gets embarrassing.

Funny. I don't feel embarrassed at all. And what ignorance are you referring to?  I honestly don't care if you feel I disgraced myself or not. That would be your opinion.

If you are not inspired to learn enough about science to argue against it cogently, you might try sticking to moral issues and and leave the physical world alone. You are not helping your cause otherwise.

When did I argue against science?  Strawman much?

It is the job of science to explore, discover, invent and theorize, among other things. It is an ongoing process that will never be able to discover everything. Religion takes it upon itself to tell us it has all the important answers already. Which would be less of a problem if any of the religious explanations matched reality in useful quantities. They don't. I tend to assume that Christians and muslims in particular are very interested in there being an afterlife, and they seem forced by their hopes to mold this life in such a way that it end up looking consistent with said afterlife. Dissing science is one tactic of believers. And most practice what they preach by not knowing diddley about it.

I never "dissed" science at all.  Why are you bringing this up to me?  Please don't use your prejudice to assume that I am like all the rest. 

I would love there to be some sort of afterlife that I could enjoy. The ill-defined christian heaven holds no appeal, but if after death I could continue on in some other form and enjoy the universe a bit more, I'd love it. However, my hopes for such things, my opinion that there should be an afterlife, are completely irrelevant because they do not match anything we know about death. Hence I ignore my hopes because I know there is nothing to base them on.

The ill defined definition of Christian heaven is one of the reasons I have a tendency to lean towards Christianity in my theism.  How can something unearthly be described in a way in which we could comprehend when we have no reference to base it on?  Christ described it as paradise to one of the poor buggers hanging next to Him during the crucifixion.  Whatever it is, it must be pretty good, that is if it exists at all.

As Azdgari said a few posts back, the universe is not subject to your opinion. Nor is it subject to mine or anyone else's. Through science, we humans do our best to take biases out of the picture as we search for truth. (I don't for a second claim that science is without any bias. Scientists exist within cultures, and said cultures have remarkable power over individuals and institutions. But science does what it can to minimize such influences. ) Religions must, by their very nature, keep their own biases on the front line of the debate and spend most of their time insisting they are truths. They even go so far as to claim that the lack of proof is in and of itself proof that something powerful and intelligent is responsible for the universe.

Lack of proof is not proof.  The universe either had a sentient creator or it did not.  I don't dismiss science and I hope it does indeed one day discover how the universe was formed. Eventually it may.  The problem with science however is that it can only go back to the starting point of the universe. Anything before that would be impossible to prove.  Science can hypothesize, but that is all it can really accomplish regarding this.

I personally prefer to go where the evidence takes us, even if it means that I don't get to comfort myself in my old age about a pending "streets of gold" experience. The pursuit of truth is far more important to me than is fooling myself for my own convenience.

That's great.  You go ahead and do that.  I do not dismiss scientific truth either.   Peace.

Offline WakingDeath

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Re: Does God's love people in hell??????
« Reply #144 on: June 19, 2013, 08:44:37 PM »


The existence, or lack thereof, of anything in the universe is not a matter of opinion.  It is a matter of fact that is right or wrong.
   

We don't have all  the facts. A person is allowed to have ideas and attempt to fill in the gaps.  Are you saying that what we don't know about the universe doesn't exist?   I can have the opinion that the universe was created and that is an honest opinion.  I don't care if you agree or not about this issue, and I am not going to discuss it with you any further.  Intelligent design is a possibility and that's that.

And unless you don't think your opinion is any more reasonable than the alternatives (in which case it wouldn't really be an opinion you held, would it?), you're at the very least saying that you know of good reasons to hold your opinion in contradiction of other options.  Which would still be dishonest, because you don't, hence the manner in which you're characterizing it as an opinion.

I did agree that it was an opinion that could very well be incorrect. I did not dismiss other options at all.  You are just playing a word game.  And get over this "dishonest" nonsense. I never lied to anybody here yet or to myself. I never claimed that my opinion was correct. I only claimed that it was one possibility amongst other possibilities.

Yes.  Did you read what you have posted?

Please don't push me.  I am not going to waste my time arguing semantics with you. Of course I read what I posted. I wrote the posts!   If you are here to insult me, then I am finished responding to you.