Author Topic: Why do people cite love as proof of gods existance?  (Read 513 times)

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Offline epidemic

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Why do people cite love as proof of gods existance?
« on: June 07, 2013, 01:27:12 PM »
Is love really that unique a thing?

It seems to happen in the animal kingdom to varying degrees.

A dog who loses his master may sit on the grave until he starves to death. (is that love?)

Elephants seem to more the loss of loved ones and have empathy of the sick and or dying.  (is that love?)


How is love really uniquely human and excluded among animals.

people have asked how it evolved. 

love and empathy are very valuable tools Building a family and tribal unit is a very strong community.  it creates cooperative behavior and improves likely success.

Offline One Above All

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Re: Why do people cite love as proof of gods existance?
« Reply #1 on: June 07, 2013, 01:30:31 PM »
I don't remember any theists citing love as proof of any god's existence. Mind giving me a link or two?
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Why do people cite love as proof of gods existance?
« Reply #2 on: June 07, 2013, 01:45:50 PM »
Is love really that unique a thing?

It seems to happen in the animal kingdom to varying degrees.

A dog who loses his master may sit on the grave until he starves to death. (is that love?)


I don't know if animals can "love" - we tend to mistake their instinctual actions for something we call love, hate, meloncollie (get it?)...  Maybe the dog just wonders why the food provider is underground now?  Besides, you ever read the stories about dogs eating their dead master when stuck alone in an apartment?  Not so loving...

If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline Nick

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Re: Why do people cite love as proof of gods existance?
« Reply #3 on: June 07, 2013, 03:30:56 PM »
They do like to cite the burning fires of hell a lot.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline Jag

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Re: Why do people cite love as proof of gods existance?
« Reply #4 on: June 07, 2013, 04:17:10 PM »
I don't remember any theists citing love as proof of any god's existence. Mind giving me a link or two?
This doesn't really address your post but it made me think of this:

One of the weird little irritant at the small community college I'm attending is that the bathroom stall walls become a place for theological debate far more often than I was expecting. There's one bathroom in particular that always has some ongoing nonsense about god from both sides of the debate. Once per semester it gets painted over, and starts again within a week. I watch without participating (fish in a barrel and all that), and inevitably, someone demands proof of God. Also inevitably, someone responds with "John 3:16" as though that's an answer.

I've circumspectly asked enough questions to determine that this patten has been repeating itself for at least the last four years, and apparently it's always in the same stall in that bathroom.

There's a sociological observation in there somewhere... I wouldn't have noticed the repeat in the first place if that stall hadn't been my no-thought default in an empty bathroom - 2nd stall, pretty much always, which I suspect is common for most women so I should stop that.... I'm not sure if it's relevant, but that bathroom is in the Business/Nursing wing - the ones I use in the Humanities and Science wings rarely have any graffiti at all. I ought to make it a point to check the ones in the Arts wing.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline neopagan

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Re: Why do people cite love as proof of gods existance?
« Reply #5 on: June 07, 2013, 04:25:13 PM »
love a good bathroom stall read when urine the fecal position...  :)
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why do people cite love as proof of gods existance?
« Reply #6 on: June 17, 2013, 01:22:18 PM »
Is human love really that far removed from animal love?   Is it instinctual? A byproduct of evolution designed to insure a monogamous relationship and insure best chances of survival for the offspring?  We know it is bio-chemical related to specific neurotranmitters.

why is a dogs natural attachment to a single member of the pack (Me) any different than my attachment to a woman who I have spent months with? 

I would like to have someone here describe exactly what is different between human love and animal love?  Obviously dogs don't have the same sense of self and time that we do but essentially human love for all it's wonder does not appear to be unique but for order of intelligence.

A dog will sacrifice it's life to save you (well at least some dogs will)  Chimps go through many of the bonding rituals humans do. 

But essentially it would appear to me a dogs love is as close to a humans as one could expect from a walnut sized brain:)


Is love really that unique a thing?

It seems to happen in the animal kingdom to varying degrees.

A dog who loses his master may sit on the grave until he starves to death. (is that love?)


I don't know if animals can "love" - we tend to mistake their instinctual actions for something we call love, hate, meloncollie (get it?)...  Maybe the dog just wonders why the food provider is underground now?  Besides, you ever read the stories about dogs eating their dead master when stuck alone in an apartment?  Not so loving...

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why do people cite love as proof of gods existance?
« Reply #7 on: June 20, 2013, 07:17:13 AM »
so can someone please detail the unique features of human love not seen in the animal kingdom?  The unique features that make it a proof of god?

is it the butterflies one feels in their stomach during early courtship (I don't know if I can ask a dog if they feel it but they sure act like it every time they see you) ?

The willingness to sacrifice (mother animals and even to a lesser extent daddy animals will often die for their young)?

Monogamy? (well in humans I am not sure that our monogamy is all that strong)


I just can't think of how my dogs affection for me can not be described as love???  Yes it is a programmed response by nature, but, can't one claim the same of human responses to their partner or children?

I watched a program recently (forgot the name) where they tried some of the mating rituals of chimps to wonderful effect in the bar scene.  of course they were modified to avoid the poo flinging and grunting but the essence of the chimp rituals seemed to translate.

Offline Fiji

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Re: Why do people cite love as proof of gods existance?
« Reply #8 on: June 20, 2013, 08:42:13 AM »
Beats me, epidemic, the one difference I can see is that we recognise love when we encounter it. But is that enough to "Aha! Therefor Freya!"[1]
Seems a bit ... mundane, really. If one clings to so flimsy a proof, why not just go "Rainbow! Therefor Heimdall!"[2]

Sacrifice is indeed not limited to humans, so that can't be it.

Monogamy? does that even exist in humans? If you look at the amount of philandering going on, or polyamory that's on the rise, or societies where monogamy is not even a social construct ... never mind all the sex people engage in BEFORE a guy in a dress speaks a magical incantation over them ... where's the monogamy?
I suppose that giving people awesome genitals and then telling them to not use them could indicate a trickster god. So ... Fornication! therefor Loki Yahweh!

I watched a program recently (forgot the name) where they tried some of the mating rituals of chimps to wonderful effect in the bar scene.  of course they were modified to avoid the poo flinging and grunting but the essence of the chimp rituals seemed to translate.

If you could remember the name of that program ... that would be awesome.
Though ... they took out the poo flinging?! Why?! It's not a party unless someone flings poo! ;)
 1. or Venus, or Aphrodite ... or if one insists, this Yahweh fellow I suppose.
 2. Oops, sorry, there I go again, I mean therefor Iris ... Yahweh! Therefor Yahweh.
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Offline William

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Re: Why do people cite love as proof of gods existance?
« Reply #9 on: June 20, 2013, 09:10:18 AM »
so can someone please detail the unique features of human love not seen in the animal kingdom?  The unique features that make it a proof of god?

Divorce  ;D .... as far as I know it's only humans that do it, and it's forbidden by God  :o
Git mit uns

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why do people cite love as proof of gods existance?
« Reply #10 on: June 20, 2013, 09:25:04 AM »
Beats me, epidemic, the one difference I can see is that we recognise love when we encounter it. But is that enough to "Aha! Therefor Freya!"[1]
Seems a bit ... mundane, really. If one clings to so flimsy a proof, why not just go "Rainbow! Therefor Heimdall!"[2]

Sacrifice is indeed not limited to humans, so that can't be it.

Monogamy? does that even exist in humans? If you look at the amount of philandering going on, or polyamory that's on the rise, or societies where monogamy is not even a social construct ... never mind all the sex people engage in BEFORE a guy in a dress speaks a magical incantation over them ... where's the monogamy?
I suppose that giving people awesome genitals and then telling them to not use them could indicate a trickster god. So ... Fornication! therefor Loki Yahweh!

I watched a program recently (forgot the name) where they tried some of the mating rituals of chimps to wonderful effect in the bar scene.  of course they were modified to avoid the poo flinging and grunting but the essence of the chimp rituals seemed to translate.

If you could remember the name of that program ... that would be awesome.
Though ... they took out the poo flinging?! Why?! It's not a party unless someone flings poo! ;)
 1. or Venus, or Aphrodite ... or if one insists, this Yahweh fellow I suppose.
 2. Oops, sorry, there I go again, I mean therefor Iris ... Yahweh! Therefor Yahweh.


I am not absolutely sure.  The name does not sound familiar from my feable memory but the description sounds like it.

http://tvbythenumbers.zap2it.com/2013/05/03/three-part-series-going-ape-to-premiere-monday-may-13-on-national-geographic-channel/180938/

Offline One Above All

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Re: Why do people cite love as proof of gods existance?
« Reply #11 on: June 20, 2013, 10:15:14 AM »
I don't remember any theists citing love as proof of any god's existence. Mind giving me a link or two?

Still waiting for my link(s), epidemic. Otherwise I might think you're making it up, and will have to smite you.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.

Offline epidemic

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Re: Why do people cite love as proof of gods existance?
« Reply #12 on: June 20, 2013, 10:24:37 AM »
I am sorry if I errantly stated it was a proof of god cited by a theist.   Reading through threads I got the impression that someone had said it.  But alas there is not likely going to be a link as I can't remember where I saw it.

But even absent the link I think the question's root is still valid,  what is unique about human love vs animal love?

Offline One Above All

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Re: Why do people cite love as proof of gods existance?
« Reply #13 on: June 20, 2013, 10:31:40 AM »
I am sorry if I errantly stated it was a proof of god cited by a theist.   Reading through threads I got the impression that someone had said it.  But alas there is not likely going to be a link as I can't remember where I saw it.

Very well.

But even absent the link I think the question's root is still valid,  what is unique about human love vs animal love?

IMO the question is (mostly) moot if nobody made the point, but I don't think other users would agree with me.
The truth is absolute. Life forms are specks of specks (...) of specks of dust in the universe.
Why settle for normal, when you can be so much more? Why settle for something, when you can have everything?
We choose our own gods.

A.K.A.: Blaziken_rjcf/Lucifer/All In One.