Author Topic: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?  (Read 5787 times)

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Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
« Reply #145 on: June 18, 2013, 11:05:40 AM »
Best to imagine that it did happen, and that we do not know the details of how it happened.  Both true.
Incorrect on both counts.  The first is exceedingly dubious - not to mention foolish, since it's basically gullible credulousness - and the second is ignorantly inane.  Just because someone wrote about something does not mean it actually happened (see every fictional book ever written), so it is not a smart idea to imagine that something happened just because you read about it in a book, while simultaneously saying, "I don't know the details, but I'm sure it happened like the Bible said".

Offline junebug72

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Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
« Reply #146 on: June 18, 2013, 06:33:53 PM »

THE Bible is a DISGRACE to GOD.

Babies die every day without any Bibles around.  I've watched people die.  Age has no bearing.
Drowning is not exactly torture. I been tortured.  I've been ready to die from pain.
Drowning is painless.  Living is way more painful than drowning, any day of the week.

Thanks for finally acknowledging me SW. 

I can't believe you actually consider this LOVE.  IMO, God masters the art of controlling emotions.  If I were to describe a perfect person, I would start by saying she is good to others.  I would then have to include masters emotions.  No anger management necessary.  Moses describes God as both angry and jealous.  You can't behave this way and be perfect.  Then intelligent, athletic, healthy, compassionate,  articulate and funny.  Now if the bible were true it definitely describes an imperfect God.  If this were how God really was I would join teams with the devil.  I don't believe it though.  I believe that God really loves us and would never do the things the bible describes.

At the time Christianity was becoming a religion it was very violent.  Many Christians were stoned and beheaded for their religion.  I'm sure they did their best to spread the Gospel of Christ and keep it honest but eventually the Romans took over and made it into what they wanted it to be.  They did however leave enough to guide you to the light but most Christians I know of just don't listen to Jesus.  Good fruit doesn't mean converting someone it means are you being kind to your fellow man, making sure to forgive, giving freely to the poor, turning the other cheek, being humble and lastly DO NOT JUDGE OTHERS.   Jesus could not have set a better example or made that point anymore clear but Christians are the first to judge.

Jesus did not disgrace God nor does the New Testament, but Sir the Old Testament IS A DISGRACE TO GOD.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
« Reply #147 on: June 18, 2013, 11:26:15 PM »
Babies die every day without any Bibles around.  I've watched people die.  Age has no bearing.
Drowning is not exactly torture. I been tortured.  I've been ready to die from pain.
Drowning is painless.  Living is way more painful than drowning, any day of the week.
Wow.  Just wow.

Oh, yeah. Drowning newborn babies is just fine, if a god does it. And, it was painless, not that it really matters, because those babies were stone cold evil. And slavery was cool, too, 'cause god said so. Wiping out entire ethnic groups for not believing in the correct faith is equally awesome, if god tells you it's okay. 

That is why we get so freaked out over religion-- who else could say that sh!t and be considered sane? Would you want someone calling themselves a god to drown your child, SW? I sincerely hope not.[1]
 1. Waterboarding is just simulated drowning, pouring water up someone's nose so they fear they will die. It is horrible, and it is recognized as torture--even though the person does not really die.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
« Reply #148 on: June 19, 2013, 01:58:34 AM »
Drowning is painless.  Living is way more painful than drowning, any day of the week.

Sky, should drowning be considered in any way mitigation in a murder case, on the grounds that it is painless?

Or might the jury feel that the fear and the terro experienced going through the process would make it just as horrible a way to be murdered than by slicing their head off?  Indeed, might not drowning be considered MORE horrific a way to be murdered than beheading (especially if that beheading were done from behind without warning), because of the 2 minutes it would take before you lost consciousness?   What about the last few hours clinging to a piece of driftwood knowing that help would never come, watching your children, your parents, slipping beneath the waves? 

Point being: Yahweh could have just stopped all the bad guys hearts, simultaneously.  Or just made it so they went to sleep one night and just never woke up.  There are MANY ways he could have murdered them without any pain, and with a lot less fuss and bother.

But he didn't.  He chose a way that would cause maximum fear and despair in each and every one of them.  Imagine the fear the toddlers would have felt, as the rains kept coming and coming and mummy and daddy are running and screaming and the waters close over you and you start to choke but mummy saves you and you hold the wood but mummy closes her eyes and she goes under the water and you cry and cry for mummy and then the water gets in you and you choke and you can't breathe CAN'T BREATHE CAN'T BREATHE......

Tell me again how loving your god is.  Read that paragraph again, and try to justify what your god CHOSE to do to that child.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
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Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
« Reply #149 on: June 20, 2013, 09:01:22 AM »

THE Bible is a DISGRACE to GOD.

Babies die every day without any Bibles around.  I've watched people die.  Age has no bearing.
Drowning is not exactly torture. I been tortured.  I've been ready to die from pain.
Drowning is painless.  Living is way more painful than drowning, any day of the week.

Thanks for finally acknowledging me SW. 

I can't believe you actually consider this LOVE.  IMO, God masters the art of controlling emotions.  If I were to describe a perfect person, I would start by saying she is good to others.  I would then have to include masters emotions.  No anger management necessary.  Moses describes God as both angry and jealous.  You can't behave this way and be perfect.  Then intelligent, athletic, healthy, compassionate,  articulate and funny.  Now if the bible were true it definitely describes an imperfect God.  If this were how God really was I would join teams with the devil.  I don't believe it though.  I believe that God really loves us and would never do the things the bible describes. At the time Christianity was becoming a religion it was very violent.  Many Christians were stoned and beheaded for their religion.  I'm sure they did their best to spread the Gospel of Christ and keep it honest but eventually the Romans took over and made it into what they wanted it to be.  They did however leave enough to guide you to the light but most Christians I know of just don't listen to Jesus.  Good fruit doesn't mean converting someone it means are you being kind to your fellow man, making sure to forgive, giving freely to the poor, turning the other cheek, being humble and lastly DO NOT JUDGE OTHERS.   Jesus could not have set a better example or made that point anymore clear but Christians are the first to judge. Jesus did not disgrace God nor does the New Testament, but Sir the Old Testament IS A DISGRACE TO GOD.

Jesus said when you have seen me, you have seen the Father.   The Old Testament is about how people viewed the Father before Jesus.    It's just a documentary to learn from.  I consider it accurate, not Holy.

Offline SkyWriting

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Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
« Reply #150 on: June 20, 2013, 09:07:00 AM »
Drowning is painless.  Living is way more painful than drowning, any day of the week.

Sky, should drowning be considered in any way mitigation in a murder case, on the grounds that it is painless?

Or might the jury feel that the fear and the terro experienced going through the process would make it just as horrible a way to be murdered than by slicing their head off?  Indeed, might not drowning be considered MORE horrific a way to be murdered than beheading (especially if that beheading were done from behind without warning), because of the 2 minutes it would take before you lost consciousness?   What about the last few hours clinging to a piece of driftwood knowing that help would never come, watching your children, your parents, slipping beneath the waves? 

Point being: Yahweh could have just stopped all the bad guys hearts, simultaneously.  Or just made it so they went to sleep one night and just never woke up.  There are MANY ways he could have murdered them without any pain, and with a lot less fuss and bother.

But he didn't.  He chose a way that would cause maximum fear and despair in each and every one of them.  Imagine the fear the toddlers would have felt, as the rains kept coming and coming and mummy and daddy are running and screaming and the waters close over you and you start to choke but mummy saves you and you hold the wood but mummy closes her eyes and she goes under the water and you cry and cry for mummy and then the water gets in you and you choke and you can't breathe CAN'T BREATHE CAN'T BREATHE......

Tell me again how loving your god is.  Read that paragraph again, and try to justify what your god CHOSE to do to that child.

Children do not suffer when they drown.  It's physiology.  They spend the most critical months of their lives, learning and developing in fluid.  When they are thrown in water they are pleased to be under it.
https://www.google.com/search?q=toddler+under+water&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=nwzDUf2eEObBygGX1YCYBg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=899

Offline Azdgari

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Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
« Reply #151 on: June 20, 2013, 09:21:11 AM »
Children happily swimming in water =|= children drowning.  Got pics of those?
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Online Dante

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Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
« Reply #152 on: June 20, 2013, 09:29:20 AM »
Drowning is painless.  Living is way more painful than drowning, any day of the week.

Then why are you still here? Why don't you take a long walk off a short pier?
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Offline Mrjason

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Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
« Reply #153 on: June 20, 2013, 09:31:20 AM »
Children do not suffer when they drown.

You are aware that children are humans aren't you?

It's physiology.  They spend the most critical months of their lives, learning and developing in fluid.

They also spend the first few months not breathing on their own.   

When they are thrown in water they are pleased to be under it.

not for long they're not.

Offline William

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Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
« Reply #154 on: June 20, 2013, 09:35:48 AM »
Children do not suffer when they drown.  It's physiology.

This is ABSOLUTE bullshit!  They instinctively hold their breath when first submerged but when the water eventually hits their lungs they struggle and panic just like anyone older - ask ANY experienced swimming pool lifeguard!!!  After the initial attempt to get air they go silent - just like adults too.
« Last Edit: June 20, 2013, 10:03:03 AM by William »
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Offline William

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Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
« Reply #155 on: June 20, 2013, 10:23:33 AM »
Here, read this:

Quote
Drowning signs aren't like the movies ..........Parents, you have to understand that the struggle of the drowning person lasts between 20 and 60 seconds. Young children struggle less than adults. The drowning movements of a young child can look like they're actually doing the dog paddle in the water when they're actually drowning."
http://www.wivb.com/dpp/news/buffalo/Drowning-signs-arent-like-the-movies

Just because the untrained eye thinks the child (or adult) is perfectly okay and there's no splashing and yelling it doesn't mean they're not in fear and physically fighting for air.  Very young toddlers simply don't have the strength to put up an obvious struggle. That does not mean there is no suffering going on - only that it is quick and difficult to observe.
Git mit uns

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Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
« Reply #156 on: June 20, 2013, 01:00:47 PM »
SW, if you really believe that I hope to Darwin you never have children. And if it's too late and you've already reproduced, I sincerely hope for their sake that their mother has more common sense than you do.

This is the most ridiculous thing I've read in ages and I spend a lot of time on the internet.  :o
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Offline Samothec

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Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
« Reply #157 on: June 20, 2013, 01:47:46 PM »
Best to imagine that {the flood} did happen, and that we do not know the details of how it happened.  Both true.
You really have no critical thinking skills do you? Try really imagining the flood: all those people and animals terrified and drowning. World-wide. Then afterwards the stench of death and decay lingering. The being that caused that is supremely evil beyond anything else. A decent being would have only killed the humans it wanted dead - whether by animal attack or disease or some other human-specific death.
Faith must trample under foot all reason, sense, and understanding. - Martin Luther

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
« Reply #158 on: June 20, 2013, 02:51:51 PM »
SW will not address these points, because if he begins to, it would be too hard for him. His worldview does not allow for the bible stories to be fictional or for his god to do things that most people would consider evil. One of those has to be the case in the Noah story. Reality bites, and so forth. Too painful.

Unlike drowning, which is FUN, FUN, FUN for the entire family! Can't imagine why people struggle when they start to sink--it's so relaxing to die like that, with water rushing into your lungs. Painless. 

Instead of having abortion or contraception, just wait nine months, give birth and toss the baby into the nearest river. SW would approve. Painless.

Disneyland should build a Noah's Ark/Titanic ride where everyone actually drowns at the end! Hilarity will ensue. Painless.

Hey--instead of just a brief immersion, churches should hold people under for five minutes when they baptize folks, and send them right on to heaven. Painless.

God, is that POV effed up or what? :P &)

On the other hand, SW may be a  sociopath. If that is part of his problem, he will never understand why we are upset.  :(
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

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Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
« Reply #159 on: June 20, 2013, 04:19:07 PM »


Children do not suffer when they drown.  It's physiology.  They spend the most critical months of their lives, learning and developing in fluid.  When they are thrown in water they are pleased to be under it.
https://www.google.com/search?q=toddler+under+water&safe=off&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ei=nwzDUf2eEObBygGX1YCYBg&ved=0CAcQ_AUoAQ&biw=1280&bih=899

If you really believe this, if you aren't just trolling, then I feel terrified for any child under your care.

On the other hand, SW may be a  sociopath. If that is part of his problem, he will never understand why we are upset.  :(


The same thought crossed my mind, after such an expressed lack of empathy.
Live a good life... If there are no gods, then you will be gone, but will have lived a noble life that will live on in the memories of your loved ones. I am not afraid.
--Marcus Aurelius

Offline jaimehlers

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Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
« Reply #160 on: June 20, 2013, 04:59:53 PM »
It's worse than that.  He actually thinks that the supernatural would keep science from being able to discover it.

I am fully aware that the process of science is unable to confirm any instance of supernatural intervention. The scriptures document this using scientists in the example.

Jesus turns water into wine.  A scientist on the scene examines the fluid and declares it the best wine he has tasted. As a work of fiction, I don't see the point to the story. As a work of nonfiction, it doesn't have to have one, because it is simply documenting what happened.

But, if one is assuming non-fiction, then it tells us science is unable to accurately determine historical events if there is supernatural intervention.   The "scientist" on the scene is not in error in his analysis, and should be relieved of his job as the food scientist of the day.   Just as scientists today are not wrong about the age of the earth.   As this story shows us, science is not likely to be fully correct if there is any supernatural intervention.

What amazed me is the idea he had that there would be no point to someone making up a story about a scientist verifying something that Jesus did when he did it.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
« Reply #161 on: June 20, 2013, 05:57:57 PM »


Jesus said when you have seen me, you have seen the Father.   The Old Testament is about how people viewed the Father before Jesus.    It's just a documentary to learn from.  I consider it accurate, not Holy.

If you do not consider it holy why are you so gungho on believing it? IMO, God gave the scientist the knowledge that contradicts bible stories so that we can understand God better than those guys, and you just toss it aside like it ain't nothing.


If you really look at what Jesus teaches he really dissed Moses especially here- Please read -Matthew 23 and let me know if you think the Christian church is following Jesus.  He also let us know it was okay to question religious leaders and beware of false doctrine.  I'm afraid you have fallen victim to false doctrine.

Always be careful what attributes you assign to God.  As Jesus explained words are like a double edged sword.  Those remarks about babies were a nuclear bomb.

I think Jesus means you can define my father by my actions not what the ancestors believed.  The same is true today we can show people a loving God as Jesus did or we can show them a cruel prejudice God that doesn't deserve respect.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

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Online Jag

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Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
« Reply #162 on: June 20, 2013, 07:39:40 PM »
Ooooh, oohooh! This is a golden opportunity to share a little gem I used in a poli sci class! Yay!

Stephen Colbert makes a very good point
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Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Has it ever occurred to you that we are all wrong?
« Reply #163 on: June 22, 2013, 10:25:09 AM »
Drowning is painless.  Living is way more painful than drowning, any day of the week.

Sky, should drowning be considered in any way mitigation in a murder case, on the grounds that it is painless?

Or might the jury feel that the fear and the terro experienced going through the process would make it just as horrible a way to be murdered than by slicing their head off?  Indeed, might not drowning be considered MORE horrific a way to be murdered than beheading (especially if that beheading were done from behind without warning), because of the 2 minutes it would take before you lost consciousness?   What about the last few hours clinging to a piece of driftwood knowing that help would never come, watching your children, your parents, slipping beneath the waves? 

Point being: Yahweh could have just stopped all the bad guys hearts, simultaneously.  Or just made it so they went to sleep one night and just never woke up.  There are MANY ways he could have murdered them without any pain, and with a lot less fuss and bother.

But he didn't.  He chose a way that would cause maximum fear and despair in each and every one of them.  Imagine the fear the toddlers would have felt, as the rains kept coming and coming and mummy and daddy are running and screaming and the waters close over you and you start to choke but mummy saves you and you hold the wood but mummy closes her eyes and she goes under the water and you cry and cry for mummy and then the water gets in you and you choke and you can't breathe CAN'T BREATHE CAN'T BREATHE......

Tell me again how loving your god is.  Read that paragraph again, and try to justify what your god CHOSE to do to that child.

Children do not suffer when they drown.  It's physiology.  They spend the most critical months of their lives, learning and developing in fluid.  When they are thrown in water they are pleased to be under it.

SkyWriting, you are pathetic.  You think "having fun in a swimming pool" is the same as "drowning because the rain wont stop and there's no bottom for your feet and nothing to hang on to and mummy and daddy are sinking and not coming up"?

You HAVE no answer, so that was the pathetic best you could come up with for your evil killer god.

And you KNOW you have no answer, but you are too in fear of your killer god to admit it - probably even to yourself.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?