Author Topic: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!  (Read 2262 times)

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Offline Quesi

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Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« on: May 23, 2013, 08:04:03 PM »
Great news!  It turns out that good deed doers get to go to heaven, even if we are atheists!



I sure hope I don't have to spend eternity with Ted Haggard and his buddies.

Maybe they will have a good-deed doer section in heaven, so we don't have to spend eternity with the pious bad-deed doers. 

Offline Schizoid

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2013, 08:25:25 PM »
Great news!  It turns out that good deed doers get to go to heaven, even if we are atheists!



I sure hope I don't have to spend eternity with Ted Haggard and his buddies.

Maybe they will have a good-deed doer section in heaven, so we don't have to spend eternity with the pious bad-deed doers.

But I don't want to go, I don't want to go!!!

Why would I want to spend eternity with so many people who in life I considered to be self righteous, closed minded bigots?  Why would I want to spend eternity worshiping and praising a deity that I considered to be a psychopath in life?

Pass...that truly would be hell for me.

Offline mrbiscoop

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2013, 08:27:14 PM »
Whoooh, that's a relief.
When I was a kid I used to pray every night for a new bicycle. Then I realised that the Lord doesn't work that way so I stole one and asked Him to forgive me.
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Offline HAL

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2013, 08:31:17 PM »
Whoooh, that's a relief.

Really - I help my neighbors all the time! Party on!

Offline Nick

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2013, 10:17:54 PM »
I'm not sure I want to go there if I have to spend forever with some of these Christian fanatics.
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

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Offline sun_king

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2013, 10:22:12 PM »
What will an atheist do in heaven?

... for eternity!

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #6 on: May 24, 2013, 04:26:05 AM »
What an utterly, utterly bizarre thing for a Pope to say.  Because at a stroke he has just removed all need for missionary work, all need to convert, all need to worship, and all need to believe.  He has made god and religion irrelevant.

So well done Mr.Pope - I just wonder if he realises just what he has done.  Maybe he WILL be the last Pope after all?
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline The Gawd

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #7 on: May 24, 2013, 06:37:39 AM »
What will an atheist do in heaven?

... for eternity!

heaven is a concept that each individual makes up in their mind, so heaven is what YOU make it. Personally I'm going to be doing this to believers... forever, and ever, Amen!!

Offline Petey

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #8 on: May 24, 2013, 07:56:14 AM »
Anyone else a little miffed about this?

First off, I don't need validation of my "goodness" from any religious figure.  The atheist community has known for years that our morals are (generally speaking) superior to theists.

And second, who in their right mind would WANT to go to heaven?  I can think of a million better ways to spend eternity than worshiping a colossal asshole.

That whole statement from the Pope just came across as condescending, and more of a PR move than anything.
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Offline HAL

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2013, 08:06:24 AM »
What an utterly, utterly bizarre thing for a Pope to say.  Because at a stroke he has just removed all need for missionary work, all need to convert, all need to worship, and all need to believe.  He has made god and religion irrelevant.

So well done Mr.Pope - I just wonder if he realises just what he has done.  Maybe he WILL be the last Pope after all?

Something ain't right here. I mean if all that bullshit is real then I hope he's right, but it don't make a lick of sense - I mean it's very bad for his "business".

Can a Pope be fired? Damn we need a Catholic to talk to about this weird statement.  :o

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2013, 08:16:08 AM »
Something ain't right here. I mean if all that bullshit is real then I hope he's right, but it don't make a lick of sense - I mean it's very bad for his "business".
Fear not:
http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/23/heaven-for-atheists-pope-sparks-debate/
His business partners are on the case.  I foresee a long, drawn out debate with highly vague language, lack of commitment to a position, arbitrary citation of non-existent facts, and many calls to prayer.

And, under no circumstances, will anyone in the debating, think once that it is strange that god has no interest in clarifying this.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
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Offline neopagan

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2013, 08:45:59 AM »
Well, his popeness only speaks for the westernized view of christianity-catholic version, so what happens to the do-gooder atheists who've never even heard of his sky god?  What about god-believeing priests who bugger young boys?  They still in?

This opens up a whole smelly can of worms, so as jdawg says - the spin machine will get busy blurring all this and telling us to move along quietly... AND GIVE!

This just in from Shyster Ahole, President of the So. Baptist Convention:

  "I want to reassure all true christians, in light of the pope's pronouncement that all atheist need only do good works and make it to heaven, the position of true believers and the inerrant/unchangeable word of god is that atheist will still all burn in eternal hell.  So, rest assured, true believers, they get what's coming to them - forever!... Now GIVE!!" 

(ok, so it's not a real quote - at least not a public one) :)
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline HAL

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2013, 08:59:22 AM »
Here's an explanation of what he meant -

Explanatory Note on the Meaning of 'Salvation' in Francis' Daily Homily of May 22

If anyone can make any damn sense of it let us all know.  :o

Offline jdawg70

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #13 on: May 24, 2013, 09:24:57 AM »
Here's an explanation of what he meant -

Explanatory Note on the Meaning of 'Salvation' in Francis' Daily Homily of May 22

If anyone can make any damn sense of it let us all know.  :o
Summary:
Somethingsomething ethereal language...
Moresomething God truly and effectively wills all people to be saved yes I'm familiar with what "effectively" means I choose to use that word anyway something something good people are probably Catholic after all blahblah more non-specific language yadayada good actions aren't your own but through god's will somethingorother don't be afraid of the future for some reason.

However, there appears to be one bit of excellence in this whole thing:
Quote
5) There is always a risk in interreligious dialogue or dialogue with atheists and agnostics today that reduces all discussions to mere politeness and irrelevance.  Dialogue does not mean compromise. There can and must be dialogue today: dialogue in genuine freedom and not merely in that ‘toleration’ and co-existence where one puts up with one’s opponent merely because one does not have the power to destroy him. This dialogue must of course be conducted with a loving attitude. The Christian knows that love alone is the highest light of knowledge and that what St Paul says about love must therefore be valid of dialogue.
I reject the last sentence but the rest of that point is pretty valid to me.
"When we landed on the moon, that was the point where god should have come up and said 'hello'. Because if you invent some creatures, put them on the blue one and they make it to the grey one, you f**king turn up and say 'well done'."
- Eddie Izzard

Offline Dante

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #14 on: May 24, 2013, 09:28:51 AM »
Quote
5) There is always a risk in interreligious dialogue or dialogue with atheists and agnostics today that reduces all discussions to mere politeness and irrelevance.  Dialogue does not mean compromise. There can and must be dialogue today: dialogue in genuine freedom and not merely in that ‘toleration’ and co-existence where one puts up with one’s opponent merely because one does not have the power to destroy him. This dialogue must of course be conducted with a loving attitude.

 :o
Actually it doesn't. One could conceivably be all-powerful but not exceptionally intelligent.

Online Azdgari

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2013, 09:54:24 AM »
Anyone else a little miffed about this?

First off, I don't need validation of my "goodness" from any religious figure.  The atheist community has known for years that our morals are (generally speaking) superior to theists.

And second, who in their right mind would WANT to go to heaven?  I can think of a million better ways to spend eternity than worshiping a colossal asshole.

That whole statement from the Pope just came across as condescending, and more of a PR move than anything.

Oh it's still not great.  But compared to "you deserve to burn eternally for disagreeing with me" it's a step up.
The highest moral human authority is copied by our Gandhi neurons through observation.

Offline LoriPinkAngel

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2013, 05:10:40 PM »
This pope is sure pissing off the Catholics.  First he washed the wrong persons feet, now this...   :o
It doesn't make sense to let go of something you've had for so long.  But it also doesn't make sense to hold on when there's actually nothing there.

Offline Mooby

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2013, 05:17:33 PM »
That whole statement from the Pope just came across as condescending, and more of a PR move than anything.
It wasn't a PR move or a statement.  It was part of a homily--the section of a Mass where the readings are used to teach the congregation a spiritual lesson.  It was intended for the Catholics present, not for media coverage.

Unfortunately, in stellar news fashion, a few news sites pulled a small quote from the homily and focused on it, and then others read those reports and ran with a premise that in no way reflects what was actually said.  Here's an incomplete transcript of the homily that gives much better context.

What an utterly, utterly bizarre thing for a Pope to say.  Because at a stroke he has just removed all need for missionary work, all need to convert, all need to worship, and all need to believe.  He has made god and religion irrelevant.

So well done Mr.Pope - I just wonder if he realises just what he has done.  Maybe he WILL be the last Pope after all?
The Pope's remarks are based on existent Catholic teachings.  He did not add anything new to Catholic doctrine, and he certainly did not make religious conversion irrelevant.

The Catholic Church is traditional inclusivist, and has been for as well as I'm aware.  I certainly remember being taught it in school, with it being mentioned in textbooks as well.  That being said, Catholicism is definitely not universalist, which means that it does not teach that atheists will be given an automatic pass for heaven, and it definitely doesn't mean, "Aww, shit, I'm good then.  Back to the strip club!" as expressed in the OP's video.

I might do a longer post on here or IGI (or crosspost) later this weekend if people are in the specifics of the Catholic view of salvation with regards to other belief systems.[1]
 1. Or lack thereof, for the Mistform Ultimus fanatics
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Offline Nick

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2013, 05:24:32 PM »
Well, his popeness only speaks for the westernized view of christianity-catholic version, so what happens to the do-gooder atheists who've never even heard of his sky god?  What about god-believeing priests who bugger young boys?  They still in?

This opens up a whole smelly can of worms, so as jdawg says - the spin machine will get busy blurring all this and telling us to move along quietly... AND GIVE!

This just in from Shyster Ahole, President of the So. Baptist Convention:

  "I want to reassure all true christians, in light of the pope's pronouncement that all atheist need only do good works and make it to heaven, the position of true believers and the inerrant/unchangeable word of god is that atheist will still all burn in eternal hell.  So, rest assured, true believers, they get what's coming to them - forever!... Now GIVE!!" 

(ok, so it's not a real quote - at least not a public one) :)
Is his last name really Ahole?
Yo, put that in your pipe and smoke it.  Quit ragging on my Lord.

Tide goes in, tide goes out !!!

Offline neopagan

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2013, 05:26:58 PM »
Does it matter? :P
If xian hell really exists, the stench of the burning billions of us should be a constant, putrid reminder to the handful of heavenward xians how loving your god is.  - neopagan

Offline shnozzola

Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #20 on: May 24, 2013, 05:36:24 PM »
, and it definitely doesn't mean, "Aww, s**t, I'm good then.  Back to the strip club!"

Now just hold on - there are some really good people at strip clubs!   ;)
“The best thing for being sad," replied Merlin, beginning to puff and blow, "is to learn something."  ~ T. H. White
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Offline HAL

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #21 on: May 24, 2013, 05:48:38 PM »
I might do a longer post on here or IGI (or crosspost) later this weekend if people are in the specifics of the Catholic view of salvation with regards to other belief systems.

Translation: I'll do some bullshitting for the Pope so we can get out of this mess. If I type enough fluff and stuff it will sound like he didn't mean what he said. Three or four paragraphs of bullshit and religious mumbo-jumbo ought to be enough :)

Fortunately, as others have said, it doesn't really mean a damn thing since it's all imaginary anyway.

Offline Anfauglir

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #22 on: May 25, 2013, 02:38:26 AM »
I might do a longer post on here or IGI (or crosspost) later this weekend if people are in the specifics of the Catholic view of salvation with regards to other belief systems.[1]
 1. Or lack thereof, for the Mistform Ultimus fanatics

Good stuff.  Because if I can get into heaven without believing in god, I would be interested to know how belief is relevant at all.
Just because you've always done it that way doesn't mean it's not incredibly stupid.
Why is it so hard for believers to answer a direct question?

Offline Seppuku

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #23 on: May 25, 2013, 04:15:38 AM »
Anyone else a little miffed about this?

First off, I don't need validation of my "goodness" from any religious figure.  The atheist community has known for years that our morals are (generally speaking) superior to theists.

And second, who in their right mind would WANT to go to heaven?  I can think of a million better ways to spend eternity than worshiping a colossal a**hole.

That whole statement from the Pope just came across as condescending, and more of a PR move than anything.

Whilst it is refreshing to think of the Church accepting atheists rather than berating them or accusing them of going to hell I agree that we don't need validation for our goodness. Still, it's an improvement on "you're doomed to hell" attitude, whilst many Christians do still have it. It probably is a PR move, but it's not as if he can't win support with the "you're all doomed to hell" and stir up the battle between faith and lack of faith. It's a model that works for many churches and it's not that difficult with a man with his power to manipulate his follows to his advantage and hate is surprisingly an easy way to unite people.

I suspect there are groups of Catholics who would disagree with the pope on this.

Regardless of what his motives mays be, I'd rather a more tolerant Catholic church than an intolerant one. Maybe he'll say, "gays aren't so bad, really, come on peoples, grow up" next, but maybe that's a tad optimistic.

Also, when he says 'good', you don't have to wonder what he means by 'good', because what Catholics call 'good' might not be the same as what many atheists may define good and does this mean they'll still have a mission in mind to bring the world to Catholic morality? Or are we talking about a more 'vague' good, where people live life without hurting others and doing the best they can to be positive in the manner in which they behave but are naturally subject to flaws?

Maybe our resident Catholic with man-boobs (Moobs?) will share his Catholic perspective, I'll be honest, I'm not as learned on Catholic teachings as other sects of Christianity...despite one half of the family being Catholic. :)
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Offline Quesi

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #24 on: May 25, 2013, 06:47:44 AM »
I don't know.  My Catholic aunt has always maintained that her loved ones, including my atheist father and agnostic mother are in heaven.  A few nights after my father's death, she called my mom in the middle of the night with the good news that my dad had visited her in a dream, and proclaimed that he has been wrong.  My poor, mourning, sleep deprived mother, was less than thrilled to be awakened by such a silly phone call. 

Catholics are a diverse bunch.  My grandma had hidden cards with saints on them, scattered throughout her drawers and bags and tucked away in odd places.  She went to church on holidays, and probably had me secretly baptized as a child because she was scandalized that my parents hadn't baptized me.  But she didn't see a list of rules that she was expected to follow, and scoffed at the church hierarchy.  My aunt literally believes that her mom is in heaven cooking up holiday feasts for loved ones.  In Latin America, courtyards are watched over by statues of the Virgin Mary, which are worshiped like idols.  My 84 year old neighbor does the rosary when her friends or family are in the hospital, and whether the friends or loved ones are Jewish or agnostic or some other brand of Christianity, and she manages to dig up all of the Jesus quotes about charity and love and whatnot.  She clearly believes that her god rewards all good people.  My daughter's bus stop is near a church, and early morning dog walkers cross themselves as they walk by the church. 

So there are lots of rituals that different Catholics like to participate in.  But I really don't think I have ever heard a Catholic who says that an evangelical isn't going to heaven for failure to engage in said rituals.  (Evangelicals often say that Catholics are going to hell.)  And oddly, I rarely hear Catholics express concerns about their immortal souls, or the immortal souls of loved ones, who engage in premarital sex or who didn't get last rites immediately before death.

They like their rituals.  But it seems like failure to engage in the rituals, or follow the rules of the church, or even really believe in god, are not necessarily obstacles to a happy afterlife. 

 

Offline HAL

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #25 on: May 25, 2013, 07:01:24 AM »
But it seems like failure to engage in the rituals, or follow the rules of the church, or even really believe in god, are not necessarily obstacles to a happy afterlife.

Then why don't they all just commit suicide and go to heaven? There's no reason to be here in this world if that's the way it is. There's no reason to pray, to say your Hail Mary's, to eat Holy crackers. to stay here and win more souls for the church.

Of course I don't believe that, but if it''s true, then I'll be OK too. So will all the suicide bombers, Hitler, Stalin, the Boston Bombers, all murderers, and even Mooby.

Offline Quesi

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #26 on: May 25, 2013, 07:14:29 AM »

But it seems like failure to engage in the rituals, or follow the rules of the church, or even really believe in god, are not necessarily obstacles to a happy afterlife.

Then why don't they all just commit suicide and go to heaven? There's no reason to be here in this world if that's the way it is. There's no reason to pray, to say your Hail Mary's, to eat Holy crackers. to stay here and win more souls for the church.

Of course I don't believe that, but if it''s true, then I'll be OK too. So will all the suicide bombers, Hitler, Stalin, the Boston Bombers, all murderers, and even Mooby.

You know HAL, because I suspect, on a certain level, they kind of really know it is not true.

I have always been baffled by the fact that TRUE believers don't celebrate when their loved ones die.  I mean, if I really loved someone, I would be thrilled if they were happily enjoying an amazing celestial afterlife.  But believers don't celebrate death any more than I do.  They remind each other that the loved one is "in a better place," but don't seem to find joy in the assumption. 

Offline Mooby

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #27 on: May 25, 2013, 08:20:42 AM »
Fortunately, as others have said, it doesn't really mean a damn thing since it's all imaginary anyway.
Your argument is that Catholic beliefs--the list itself, not the content--is imaginary? Has your rigid anti-religionism made you so delusional that you can't even accept that religious beliefs exist?
"I'm doing science and I'm still alive."--J.C.

Offline HAL

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Re: Pope says atheists can go to heaven if we do good!
« Reply #28 on: May 25, 2013, 08:28:06 AM »
Your argument is that Catholic beliefs--the list itself, not the content--is imaginary? Has your rigid anti-religionism made you so delusional that you can't even accept that religious beliefs exist?

Get to the meat of the matter Mooby. Let's see whether or not my prediction comes true.  :)

Here it is again -

Translation: I'll do some bullshitting for the Pope so we can get out of this mess. If I type enough fluff and stuff it will sound like he didn't mean what he said. Three or four paragraphs of bullshit and religious mumbo-jumbo ought to be enough :)

Edit: What the Pope said -


Quote
“The Lord has redeemed all of us, all of us, with the Blood of Christ: all of us, not just Catholics. Everyone,” the pope told worshipers at morning Mass on Wednesday. “‘Father, the atheists?’ Even the atheists. Everyone!

Francis continued, “We must meet one another doing good. ‘But I don’t believe, Father, I am an atheist!’ But do good: we will meet one another there.”

http://religion.blogs.cnn.com/2013/05/23/heaven-for-atheists-pope-sparks-debate/
« Last Edit: May 25, 2013, 09:15:48 AM by HAL »