Author Topic: Is America Cursed?  (Read 11622 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline epidemic

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 819
  • Darwins +58/-14
Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #261 on: June 24, 2013, 12:22:17 PM »
  I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between, minimum wage is not the answer.

I believe that most people do not earn minimum wage the article above indicates same.  most chroinically poor do not earn minimum wage.  Not even my 18 year old daughter earns it.  It is a starting wage with very few unskilled people remaining at that level for more than the first year of employment.

None the less there are some who for some reason or another are chronically stuck at minimum wages,  but if cost for employees goes up wont jobs dry up at those entry level jobs.  resulting in the most skilled filling the limited number of jobs.  Tossing out the unskilled with the bath water.  Taking our most at risk and pricing them out of the market.



Were I to try and jack up wages I would open the millions of jobs currently held by illegal aliens.  They are an artifical depression on wages.  My way of dealing with this is destinctly different from most republicans who seem to blame the aliens (I don't our lax laws were a defacto invitation to them so I don't blame them) 

I would push for amnesty but it would require a simultanious crack down on employment of illegals.  I would bankrupt companies using ICE and INS agents to go after employers who employ illegals. 

I would fine an employer 5,000 dollars a head for each illegal in their employ and each subsequent time that are caught I would double the fine.  In order to allow business to keep up with the new policy I would push for amnesty to make their current workers in their employ but from x date forward I would start crushing business.  As the new amnestied people move up the economic ladder new jobs will open at the bottom rung.  Wages at this point will seek acceptable levels for the unskilled laborers who are unskilled citizens. 

Maybe the miserable work of picking tomatos is really worth 14 dollars per hour for Americans to get off their duff and do that work.   not allowing businesses to exploit ones citizenship status to depress wages would be a step in the right direction.   PS using tomato pickers example a 100% increase in wages works out to a fractional increase in shelf price of tomatos.
« Last Edit: June 24, 2013, 12:38:31 PM by epidemic »

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12340
  • Darwins +677/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #262 on: June 24, 2013, 02:14:16 PM »
  I suspect the truth lies somewhere in between, minimum wage is not the answer.

Breitbart?  You quoted Breitbart as a counter-example?  I give you an article from the Atlantic and you respond with a piece from a hack, partisan site known for producing manipulated and selectively edited videos that lie?  As if averaging the two gives an accurate picture?   

None the less there are some who for some reason or another are chronically stuck at minimum wages,  but if cost for employees goes up wont jobs dry up at those entry level jobs.  resulting in the most skilled filling the limited number of jobs.  Tossing out the unskilled with the bath water.  Taking our most at risk and pricing them out of the market.

Historically, when the minimum wage has gone up, has there been a corresponding wave of layoffs?  A following up-tick in unemployment?  If I was a betting man, I'd guess not.  Otherwise, that kind of actual data would conclusive and thrown into the faces of everyone who wants to raise minimum wage.  Instead we get wonky arguments about Earned Income Credits and whatnot, which really only make things confusing.

On the other hand, Nobel winning economist, Paul Krugman says, raise the wage.
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/18/opinion/krugman-raise-that-wage.html
(note, NY Times, not a hack website)
Quote
Now, you might argue that even if the current minimum wage seems low, raising it would cost jobs. But there’s evidence on that question — lots and lots of evidence, because the minimum wage is one of the most studied issues in all of economics. U.S. experience, it turns out, offers many “natural experiments” here, in which one state raises its minimum wage while others do not. And while there are dissenters, as there always are, the great preponderance of the evidence from these natural experiments points to little if any negative effect of minimum wage increases on employment.
bold mine.  He also puts to bed Flynn's argument about the tax credit.  I'm believing the Nobel winning economist on this one.

This one too
http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/2013/02/16/minimum-wage-economics/?_r=0
Quote
there just isn’t any evidence that raising the minimum wage near current levels would reduce employment. And this is a really solid result, because there have been a *lot* of studies.

I'm a results guy, not an ideologue.  Try things, observe the results, then do what works.  I follow the data.

Were I to try and jack up wages I would open the millions of jobs currently held by illegal aliens.  They are an artifical depression on wages.  My way of dealing with this is destinctly different from most republicans who seem to blame the aliens (I don't our lax laws were a defacto invitation to them so I don't blame them) 

I really don't think illegal aliens are what is keeping wages down.  I think it has more to do with corporate power, the weakening of unions and labor laws over the last 50 years and the exporting of jobs to low wage countries.     

I would push for amnesty but it would require a simultanious crack down on employment of illegals.  I would bankrupt companies using ICE and INS agents to go after employers who employ illegals. 

I would revoke the citizenship of Americans (and their families) who employ them.  Then I would confiscate everything they (the former Americans) own except about $100.  Then I would deport them (the former Americans) to various Central American countries.  Good luck, bitches.


Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.

Online nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6706
  • Darwins +894/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #263 on: June 24, 2013, 11:11:36 PM »
^^^That is similar to my idea of auctioning off the citizenship of people in the US who aren't using theirs to illegal people who are about something. There are millions of people in the US sans papers (overstayed visas that expired, came here and could not go home for whatever reason, came here as kids and never got papers, etc) who are smart, hard-working, go-getters held back by the status issue. They either can't get good jobs or benefits, or live a fake life with bogus documents in constant fear of discovery.

And we all know plenty of US citizens who would rather sit on their butts, play video games, get high, have sex and eat chips. For their entire lives. So be it. They can do that in Russia or Mexico or Somalia much cheaper than in the US. We offer them voluntary sterilizations, and ten thou a year for life. Then send them off with the agreement that the money will continue as long as they don't come back. We sell their citizenship to folks who will use it, taking part of the ten thou from them in taxes, and part in fees from businesses that have benefited from exploiting underpaid illegal workers.

Nobody is getting anything for free, there is no "amnesty" because the people have to pay for their citizenship.  We get rid of the losers who don't want to contribute anyway, and they are selling their only valuable property, their unearned US birthright. It's capitalism. It's libertarian, even. The conservatives should love it. Win, win, win. :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline magicmiles

  • Fellow
  • *******
  • Posts: 2947
  • Darwins +180/-73
  • Gender: Male
Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #264 on: June 24, 2013, 11:13:51 PM »

And we all know plenty of US citizens who would rather sit on their butts, play video games, get high, have sex and eat chips.

Simultaneously?
Go on up you baldhead.

Offline Nam

  • Laureate
  • *********
  • Posts: 12524
  • Darwins +324/-84
  • Gender: Male
  • I'm on the road less traveled...
  • User is on moderator watch listWatched
Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #265 on: June 24, 2013, 11:19:23 PM »
^that's how I'd go.

-Nam
This thread is about lab-grown dicks, not some mincy, old, British poof of an actor. 

Let's get back on topic, please.


Online nogodsforme

  • Professor
  • ********
  • Posts: 6706
  • Darwins +894/-6
  • Gender: Female
  • Jehovah's Witness Protection Program
Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #266 on: June 24, 2013, 11:35:12 PM »

And we all know plenty of US citizens who would rather sit on their butts, play video games, get high, have sex and eat chips.

Simultaneously?
Multitasking is their only talent. Not very marketable, other than as a novelty act in certain nightclubs. Or so I hear. :?
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline epidemic

  • Postgraduate
  • *****
  • Posts: 819
  • Darwins +58/-14
Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #267 on: June 25, 2013, 07:26:35 AM »
I don't know Breitbart but I thought there was some truth in what he wrote.  But I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

First off there is not a large segment of society who live on minimum wage.  Many minimum wage earners are second and third incomes into houses that make much more. 

Increased expense results in lower profits (that is ok if the company chooses that route), higher prices (if the consumer is willing or can pay them) or reduced headcount (jobs for only the most skilled {likely those second income earners} leaving a segment of society unemployable [those most at risk]).  typically I do believe these problems are temporary until the market reaches it's new balance so it might be temporary pain for a greater good.

Why not make minimum wage high enough that you can support a house (with spouse and 2 kids) in NYC with 1 income.    Or perhaps just a little more so they can be comfortable with a few luxuries.

Or should we use the illegal immigrant model with 6 families in a house sharing expenses and assigning a few members for daycare?  BTW that model still leaves money to send back home.

« Last Edit: June 25, 2013, 07:45:30 AM by epidemic »

Offline screwtape

  • The Great Red Dragon
  • Administrator
  • *******
  • Posts: 12340
  • Darwins +677/-28
  • Gender: Male
  • Karma mooch
Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #268 on: June 25, 2013, 09:05:05 AM »
I don't know Breitbart

Breitbart was a professional right-wing liar before he died.  He was like a low-rent version of Hannity or Glenn "Dumbest Dumbfuck in Dumbfuckistan" Beck.  When he died his organization went into complete disarray and is still there.  Flynn has sort of taken over.  He's a low-rent version of Breitbart.

but I thought there was some truth in what he wrote.  But I think the truth is somewhere in the middle.

Well, it is easy to be taken in.  And be aware of confirmation bias.  You may think there is truth in what he wrote because you already agree with him.

I don't buy the "truth is in the middle" compromise.  It is too much of a social quid pro quo.  "I'll acknowledge that my far flung opinion may not be exactly right if you acknowledge your opposite opinion also may not be right." That is no way to do rationality.  It smooths over conflict.  It avoids confrontation. 

The truth is somewhere.  Maybe it's in the middle, but I doubt it.  Where ever it is, I want to know it.  If the truth is waaay over on the right, then I want to believe it is waaay over on the right.  If the truth is waaay over on the left, then I want to believe it is waaay over on the left.  I do not want to be attached to beliefs I do not want.[1]


Increased expense results in lower profits (that is ok if the company chooses that route), higher prices (if the consumer is willing or can pay them) or reduced headcount (jobs for only the most skilled {likely those second income earners} leaving a segment of society unemployable [those most at risk]).  typically I do believe these problems are temporary until the market reaches it's new balance so it might be temporary pain for a greater good.

I agree on the lower profits.  I disagree on the higher prices.  The market sets the price, in most cases.  Head count is also not something a company can always control.  There is only so much belt tightning you can do.  If you need the floors swept, they must be swept.  You cannot fire the guy who sweeps them.  You pay him and rake in somewhat less profit. 

And, as I already pointed out, there is not wave of unemployment following the minimum wage hike.  You are hanging on to an idea that is demonstrably untrue.  You should not hang on to beloved ideas after they have been shown to be wrong.  It causes you to make bad decisions. 

Why not make minimum wage high enough that you can support a house (with spouse and 2 kids) in NYC with 1 income.    Or perhaps just a little more so they can be comfortable with a few luxuries.

I have no problem raising it to a living wage.

Or should we use the illegal immigrant model with 6 families in a house sharing expenses and assigning a few members for daycare?  BTW that model still leaves money to send back home.

Why have a minimum wage at all?  Surely that would allow corporations to hire more people.  Is that not what you are arguing for?

Do you understand the disconnect between the stock market, unemployment and wages?
 1. http://wiki.lesswrong.com/wiki/Litany_of_Tarski
Links:
Rules
Guides & Tutorials

What's true is already so. Owning up to it does not make it worse.