Author Topic: Is America Cursed?  (Read 9071 times)

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Offline screwtape

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #232 on: June 12, 2013, 02:20:43 PM »
Tangentially related, I read that there are tea party types who are willing to support immigration reform, but only if there is federal funding included to force immigrants to sit through patriotic values classes-- taught by tea party types. Otherwise known as "yur home culture sucks, love 'Murica or else" classes.  &)

Here is the thing these tea tards don't seem to get:  Immigrants LOVE America.  They flipping adore it.  They don't take it for granted the way some people do.  They know what it's like to be without many of the things the tea tards take for granted. 

A close friend of mine moved here in the mid 80s.  He finally got his citizenship this last year.  He brought his own little hand held flag with him.  In the pictures of him being sworn in and receiving his certificate, he looks so happy.  You cannot make someone patriotic by making them take a test.

If anything, I think we should make natural born Americans pass the same test in order to vote.  I'd bet less than 50% of the the tea tards would pass.
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Online rev45

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #233 on: June 12, 2013, 02:50:33 PM »
If anything, I think we should make natural born Americans pass the same test in order to vote.  I'd bet less than 50% of the the tea tards would pass.
I think there would be a high percentage of tea partiers that would pass if the questions on the test were taken from info from Conservapedia. 
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #234 on: June 12, 2013, 02:51:26 PM »
^^^I heard that. Grab a random person and ask what are the three branches of government and what their roles are, what the bill of rights is and to name any ten US presidents....

New citizens know more about US history, politics and culture than most native born folks. I have tutored immigrants for their citizenship exams and this stuff should be, but ain't well-known.

It is not easy to get US citizenship, despite what the teapartiers think. People don't go through all the hassles and interviews and tests and fees--and ignorance from the native born-- to live in a country they hate. They appreciate the opportunities we offer here, and want to contribute. The people who don't like America stay home!
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Nam

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #235 on: June 12, 2013, 05:24:26 PM »
Just to clarify a bit, here: hemp is not the same plant as marijuana.  It's closely related, but it differs in a number of ways, probably the most important one being that hemp has only about 1% or so of the THC content of marijuana.  Even if growing hemp were legal in this country, it's not likely that many people would smoke it... to get high, you'd have to smoke at least several dozen times the amount of marijuana you'd need to smoke for the same effect, and not many people would want to have to deal with that.  Especially since it's not like actual marijuana is difficult to find or anything.  Hell, these days, you can even buy it on the Internet without even having to leave the house.

I'm not clear on the details because I haven't read about this in a while, but I seem to recall that one of the reasons that hemp was outlawed in this country was that other industries lobbied so hard to have it banned due to its being such a wildly useful plant that it posed a serious threat to other industries, such as the papermaking industry.  (The United States Constitution was written on hemp paper.

The case against legalization of marijuana is at least somewhat arguable.  I think it should be legalized, but I can understand why some people don't agree.  However, there is no legitimate case whatsoever for the prohibition of hemp.  We really do need to legalize it and start doing research with it.  Its usefulness for clothing, papermaking, and even other industries such as feeding farm animals and developing alternative energy are all too important for us to be forbidding research into it just because it's related to marijuana.

I saw in a propaganda film related to the film Reefer Madness that hemp was mainly made illegal based on its ruin of the cotton industry. But perhaps that was propaganda too.

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Offline Nam

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #236 on: June 12, 2013, 05:30:12 PM »
Raising the minimum wage would only be effective if businesses then didn't turn around and raise their prices.

This is incorrect.  Businesses do not set prices.  The market sets the price.  That is fairly straight forward economics which every manufacturer and business knows.  The formula is Price - Cost = Profit.  Not Price = cost + profit.  So the only way to increase profit is to drive down costs. 

Right now businesses, like Walmart, are making grotesque profit on the backs of their works and taxpayers. The average Walmart costs taxpayers about a million dollars a year to subsidize their workers.[1]  So in the case of Walmart, raising the minimum wage would really be a tax reduction for the rest of us.

Raising the minimum wage may hurt their bottom line, which will affect their sharholders' returns.  But the market determines the price.
 1. http://thinkprogress.org/economy/2013/06/07/2120711/walmarts-low-wages-cost-taxpayers-millions-each-year/

All I know is that every time minimum wage goes up so do the prices in everything else. Whether it's businesses doing it or the market as a whole I find irrelevant. And most[2] private companies without Unions never give raises to those who make minimum wage; only time those people get raises is when minimum wage goes up but it really doesn't effect their lives since prices tend to go up afterward.

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 2. At least in Florida
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Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #237 on: June 13, 2013, 04:46:41 AM »
I really thought hemp was marijuana.  Thanks for telling me.  Possibly the male plant.  I know the female plant has the THC not the male.

Nam- that could be a vicious cycle.  Easily fixed though with smart legislation.  I don't think there is any way to narrow the gap without the billion dollar corps taking less profit.  I for one do not feel sorry for them.  They can still live very lavish lifestyles.  They will still be the most rich.   I see them getting richer simply because there is more people spending.

Yea voters and the candidates running for office should have to take that psychological profile test employers give to applicants.  Have you ever taken one?  This one part is a list of ten things ranging from having a baby to terrorist on a plane and you have to list them in order of what is good to what is not.  There are several that give 45 min. tests that ask you do you agree, strongly agree, very strongly agree or the same with disagree, to questions like, The manager asked Tim to stay and work off the clock.  It is psychological not skill based.  Well for some people they may not be crazy when they start but they damn sure are by the time they retire! :laugh: hehe
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #238 on: June 13, 2013, 07:20:39 AM »
All I know is that every time minimum wage goes up so do the prices in everything else.

You don't know that, you only think it.  Inflation is not caused by raising the minimum wage. 
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #239 on: June 13, 2013, 10:46:22 AM »
The main thing that drives up prices is increased demand. Housing prices dropped when nobody had money, and are now creeping up again as demand picks up. The price of oil, grain and other inputs has more to do with rising prices than the minimum wage. Some things go up while others stay the same or even go down. Look at how the price of gas bounces around.

Minimum wage has not gone up very much, a dollar or two, but I have noticed the price of cereals and other products containing grain has really jumped. A box of cereal that was 2.50 a few years ago is now around 4 bucks! And cornmeal is the same. My understanding is that more grain is being used to make ethanol, which increases demand and pushes up the price.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Nam

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #240 on: June 13, 2013, 11:53:32 PM »
All I know is that every time minimum wage goes up so do the prices in everything else.

You don't know that, you only think it.  Inflation is not caused by raising the minimum wage. 

Well I guess it's just a wild coincidence every time it happens where I live.

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #241 on: June 14, 2013, 04:59:53 AM »
Well, couldn't find anyone that believes America is cursed.  We are not victims of supernatural forces.  We are our own worst enemy.

I will start a new topic to continue our discussion.  I'm not sure what the title is yet but you'll know it when you see it.  Thanks every body for sharing your thoughts and knowledge with me.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline screwtape

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #242 on: June 14, 2013, 08:46:32 AM »
Well I guess it's just a wild coincidence every time it happens where I live.

I think you are experiencing all the biases common to our species.  Give me data, Nam, not your subjective anecdotes. 
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Offline Nam

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #243 on: June 15, 2013, 12:44:23 AM »
Most of it is based on actual experience in Florida; rather than Nation wide. Anything I'd state could only be viewed as an opinion based on little to back it up. I do realize that bias is more on my side being a part of the relatively "poor" society I have lived in in the past and based on hearsay, and the like. However, I still tend to think there's a connection whether I have evidence of it, or not.

Call me irrational.

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Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #244 on: June 15, 2013, 06:02:16 AM »
Could it be that inflation drives up cost and also the minimum wage?  What I'm trying to say is I think prices go up first then minimum wage.  It does seem to happen simultaneously.  That's why increasing the minimum wage does nothing to eliminate poverty. You can barely get by on minimum wage.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline The Gawd

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #245 on: June 15, 2013, 07:30:19 AM »
I remember when I was working for a little bit more than minimum wage (I was making $5 and min wage was like 4.75) as a 15 year old at Jewel/Osco and I was due my raise, management pulled me into my office and gave me my raise like a week early to $5.25. Then I realized why the following week... minimum wage had been raised to 5.25. Had they waited they would've had to give me 5.50. I never forgave those assholes for that and made sure I supplemented my wages through products.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #246 on: June 16, 2013, 08:11:55 AM »
^A$$ holes^  My daughter-in-law worked at Bo's 6 months then they transferred her when she was due her raise and the new location never gave it either.  See you give these billion dollar corps an inch they take a mile. 
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #247 on: June 17, 2013, 01:53:39 PM »
Nam I'm sorry you have no hope.  I wish I could change that for you.  I'm getting the feeling that you have been hurt badly.  If that is true I wish I could make it go away but only you can do that.  Regardless of how you feel about my hope I will cling to every shred until the day they lay my body down.

The statements are there you just missed it.  As far as greed goes it is controlled by us humans.  When greed is allowed to get out of control society does suffer the consequences. 

I know I could have done a better job communicating in the Believing in God is Not a Bad Thing thread but I'm over it now I wish you would let it go.  I'm trying very hard to get better. 

Have a good day or night or both! :D

It is funny how maligned Greed is.  Greed is the single most important thing driving society to its current level.  Were it not for greed almost no invention would take place.  Greed and laziness drive innovation ;D.  Our current level of medicine is a direct byproduct of greed.  People did not invest in CAT scans because they would be good for society.  Absent greed we would likely we would never have left a tribal pre-bronze age society.  A world where disease, tigers and injury would take us out by 30 years old.

AS for legalizing drugs I am a super big fan of that.

I think drugs are generally bad.... but the reality is that people who are addicts perceive them as a need.  If humans perceive a need they will not be kept from the perceived need. 

As such if a law bans drugs (a perceived need) the person will still be required to acquire the drug at all costs.

This creates an economy way beyond the true value of the drugs.  The value is driven by losses and risks and the end user pays for the risks and losses.  If an addict who can not work has a 1000 dollar per week habit they will commit 1000 dollars worth of crime to pay for their need.

were drug prohibition eliminated (see alcohol prohibition) drug prices would drop to the level of other farm products like flour.  An addict could afford enough drugs to feed their habit with a 5 minute stint on the corner begging for cash.

Prohibition also creates corruption the huge money involved in drugs creates a monetary benefit for people to look the other way for graft. 

Basically I suspect if prohibition on drugs were lifted, gangs would lose a huge source of revenue, robbery, murder, and theft would drop precipitously. 

The only thing I would have government involved in was product quality, labeling, licensing and education about drugs.  I would make all drug addicts acquire a license to take their poison.  This would simply require they watch a video on the long term effects and risks of the drug and penalties for dealing to unlicensed people like minors, and a signature saying they accept the risks.

Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #248 on: June 17, 2013, 05:05:48 PM »
^^^Sounds far too sensible for the current crop of policy-makers to take on.

In related news, I have a young (age 14) relative who is currently destroying his life with his propensity to smoke weed, anytime and anywhere he gets the urge. He has been suspended and then finally kicked out of school completely, been picked up by sympathetic police, been picked up by unsympathetic police, violates curfew and has lost all his non-using friends.

His parents have cut off his allowance, taken away his phone, and even make him sleep with his dad in his room to keep him from sneaking out at night. He still manages to get out and find 'friends' who will give him weed for free. One baggie had traces of harder drugs in it, so he may be facing even more trouble.

Both his parents used drugs at his age, but the zero-tolerance policies of today mean that kind of stupid youthful behavior has way worse consequences.[1]

His family is falling apart over this. They can't travel anywhere; they can't take him with them because he might hide drugs in their car or have some weed on his person in an airport. (Can you say drug-sniffing TSA dogs?) They can't leave him at home alone. (They are seriously considering handcuffing his leg to some heavy furniture so they can go to work.)

I have no answers for them; I was a social worker and I have seen this too many times. My family went through the same sh!t with my brother--my mother driving all over the neighborhood in the middle of the night looking for him.

They have investigated rehab programs and boot camps-- very expensive. I know a kid who went to one that cost 60 thou for a year! And may not even work: Another friend put her son in one and spent the kid's entire inheritance on it. The kid went out and got some drugs the very night he was released from the program......
:o :( :P
 1. The kid's dad and grandparents are all alcoholics, not that there is any genetic addiction component here or anything  &)
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Nam

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #249 on: June 17, 2013, 05:11:24 PM »
Marijuana is supposedly non-addictive but I read that 1 in 10 long-term users do become addicted to it.

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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #250 on: June 17, 2013, 05:44:36 PM »
Marijuana is supposedly non-addictive but I read that 1 in 10 long-term users do become addicted to it.

-Nam
Marijuana flicked the genetic addict switch in his brain and after that, all bets were off. He says he can stop using anytime, but just doesn't want to stop. Right.

That's why, at 14,  he's been kicked out of school, has lost all his real friends, has to talk to lawyers, has a police record, is facing a stint in juvie, is a near-prisoner in his home, is watching his parents' marriage fall apart, and his father has started drinking again.[1]

But he can stop anytime. Just not yet. &)
 1. I'm not saying the kid is responsible for his father's drinking or his parents' marriage, but his behavior is definitely adding unneeded stress.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Offline Nam

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #251 on: June 17, 2013, 06:42:01 PM »
I've never known Marijuana to be attributed to such things (unless one was selling). I think it's something, perhaps, psychological, rather than just an addiction to Marijuana. I've known a lot of losers in life (sadly, including myself) and personal issues caused more damage than any actual drug they may or may not have been addicted to.

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Offline epidemic

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #252 on: June 20, 2013, 07:49:44 AM »
Good point epidemic.  Good point.



I agree our country is in better shape than others but why settle for mediocracy when you could achieve true greatness.  My son said something the other day that made some sense.  He said I wouldn't mind being poor if everybody was.  It is the gap between the wealthy and the poor that is not necessary.  This is not the best we can do.

Your son is right but only to a point.  He wants the communist model where everyone's life sucks equally.  Personally when I see someone who succeeds or has a better life than me I aspire to it.  Hopefully I can achieve it.  I also feel happy for the person who leads a charmed life (all be it with a tinge of jealousy)

To want everyones life to suck as bad as yours is a bit selfish as well:) :)

Offline screwtape

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #253 on: June 20, 2013, 09:45:49 AM »
Personally when I see someone who succeeds or has a better life than me I aspire to it.  Hopefully I can achieve it.

Increasingly, upward class mobility is less possible in the US than in years past.

I also feel happy for the person who leads a charmed life (all be it with a tinge of jealousy)

You are happy because someone was born into wealth and had more opportunity than you?  I'm not.  I thought the US was supposed to be a meritocracy.  This is completely against that concept.  We used to have good tax policy to prevent generational wealth from accumulating and creating a permanent aristocracy.  But the GOP changed that. 

To want everyones life to suck as bad as yours is a bit selfish as well

I want everyone to have equal opportunity.  Increasingly, that is not so.
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Offline epidemic

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #254 on: June 20, 2013, 10:13:30 AM »
Personally when I see someone who succeeds or has a better life than me I aspire to it.  Hopefully I can achieve it.

Increasingly, upward class mobility is less possible in the US than in years past.

I also feel happy for the person who leads a charmed life (all be it with a tinge of jealousy)

You are happy because someone was born into wealth and had more opportunity than you?  I'm not.  I thought the US was supposed to be a meritocracy.  This is completely against that concept.  We used to have good tax policy to prevent generational wealth from accumulating and creating a permanent aristocracy.  But the GOP changed that. 

To want everyones life to suck as bad as yours is a bit selfish as well

I want everyone to have equal opportunity.  Increasingly, that is not so.

Increasingly upward mobility was a byproduct of the simple fact that we were the industrial center for the world after world war II.  If we have another world war that america manages to not be touched by we may well see another boom.  But I don't think it is a societal or corporate thing that causes the lack of mobility.  It is simply that we do not have the same perfect storm of america having a virutal monopoly on industry and intellectual advantage.  We have competition now.  2 billion people are now being educated in china and india, our unique postion in the world is now just one of copetition.

we also allow tremendous influx of illegal immigration in our country keeping wages depressed on the low scale hurting our unskilled laborers.




I am happy for the guy born into wealth.  Why wouldn't I be?  Dam I wish it was me but alas it was not.  I hope to leave some legacy for my children, don't you? 

But why would I wish someones dad did not leave a compfortable life for his kids with his labor?  Well the Meritorcracy you speak of never existed.  Wealth has always passed down from the last generation as it should.  Do you think our founding fathers all had paupers for children?

America is about opportunity, and it is still there.  No one is keeping you from working 70 hours a week to start a company.  Only luck, foresight, and work keeps most people from escapting mediocraty.  I am not one of the 1 percent because I was chicken with the two obvious chances I had to escape the bounds of middleclassness. 

Some people can not escape poverty, but most of them are stuck because of life choices made young and bad family/cultural priorities.

Offline screwtape

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #255 on: June 20, 2013, 11:05:12 AM »
I am happy for the guy born into wealth.  Why wouldn't I be?  Dam I wish it was me but alas it was not.  I hope to leave some legacy for my children, don't you? 

Just to be clear, I'm not talking about the simply upper middle class inheritance.  I'm generally not happy about people born into wealth because I have observed 100 out of 100 of them have a gigantic sense of entitlement about it.  As they said of George W Bush, he was born on third base but thought he hit a triple.

There is quite a difference between what I would leave my offspring and what, say, Paris Hilton is going to receive.  I am a proponent of a return to a 95% inheritence tax on everything over about a million dollars.  But that is not a specific policy, so lets not quibble over the details.  Suffice it to say, I'd tax the hell out of large inheritance.  As it is now, inheritance tax applies to almost no one but the very richest families and yet they keep trying to make it smaller and smaller.  As if they think it will some day apply to them.

But why would I wish someones dad did not leave a compfortable life for his kids with his labor?

Fairness.  Equal opportunity.  To ensure we do not have a permanent aristocratic class that has the money to buy government, which we now have, in my opinion.  We are living in a second Gilded AgeWiki.

I could turn the question around, why would you want people to have a pile of money they did nothing to earn?

Well the Meritorcracy you speak of never existed.

That is irrelevant and not what I said.  It is an ideal.  If we want to be able to have upward mobility based on what we deserve, we need to have policy that encourages it.  But we don't.  Do you not want people to be rewarded based on merit?

Wealth has always passed down from the last generation as it should.

As it should?  Why should it?  Why should a person receive vast sums of money they did not earn?  Do you think it does those people any good to know from the moment they are aware that they will never have to work for anything?

Do you think our founding fathers all had paupers for children?

That is completely irrelevant. I have not suggested anyone's children be left paupers.

Only luck, foresight, and work keeps most people from escapting mediocraty.

That's not true.  This is an American myth.  The turth is, the field is titled against you and in favor of the rich.

Some people can not escape poverty, but most of them are stuck because of life choices made young and bad family/cultural priorities.

Also not true. Poverty has been created by "pro business" policies.  It has as much to do with education, tax policy and trade policy.  Don't forget labor laws and the general weakening of unions.  If you adjusted for inflation, etc, the minimum wage in 1968 would be equivalent to about $21/hr.[1]  People doing the same job today as they did in 1970 make about a third the pay. 

For some reason I have seen a lot of fellow americans have an attitude that someone working in a warehouse or a gas station or the grocery deserves to be poor because they think those jobs are menial or not important.  I disagree.  We still need all those jobs.  The only ones benefitting from such wage depression are the stock holders of those employers, who generally tend to be the rich.
 1. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-06-19/the-capitalist-s-case-for-a-15-minimum-wage.html
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Offline nogodsforme

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #256 on: June 20, 2013, 03:37:02 PM »
Both epidemic and screwtape make good points. True: The US was sheltered from global competition for 50 years after WWII. True: The rest of the world is now catching up. But at the same time, US domestic policies have increasingly favored the wealthy-- who don't work-- over the poor and middle class who do.

And no, it has never been the case that "anyone who works hard can get rich". My working class students think this way, and I ask them why their parents and grandparents did not get rich. The easy answer is that life happened, and you don't get rich driving a bus, teaching kindergarden or delivering mail. You most definitely don't get rich caring for your children or elderly parents. Basically, normal families can't get rich! But you should not have to be rich to have a decent life with a level of stability.

Most people in Europe, Latin America, Asia, etc, realize this and try to have government policies, including higher taxes, so everyone can meet their basic needs,and access good education and have health care regardless of income.  We in the US are still not sure whether everyone deserves these things. We would rather have access to a gun and low tax rates (so it seems).

Productivity is the US is at record high levels. But the increased value has not gone to the workers who produced it in the form of increased wages or benefits. The increased value has gone into higher profits and higher salaries and more benefits to those at the very top.

Deregulation of industries, cutting taxes, and allowing for rich people to escape taxes, has led to defunding the education and social services that allow poor and middle class people --those without rich ancestors and big inheritances-- to have a chance at upward mobility.
 
When people complain about increased work loads, decreased hours and unpaid furloughs, enforced overtime, no raises, cuts in benefits, safety net full of holes, crappy infrastructure, they are told to be grateful to have a job at all. Because you could get laid off, and then where will you be?

And we are encouraged to blame those at the bottom, the least powerful for the situation (like illegal immigrants who do the crappiest jobs for the least money) as if the policies from the top have nothing to do with it. Unions and political organizing can help, but only if people know what the problems really are.   

Not to sound too Marxist, but there it is.
Extraordinary claims of the bible don't even have ordinary evidence.

Kids aren't paying attention most of the time in science classes so it seems silly to get worked up over ID being taught in schools.

Online Jag

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #257 on: June 20, 2013, 03:45:58 PM »
^^^This is an excellent post (as they always are when we're talking about this) but one line in particular caught my eye: When people complain about increased work loads, decreased hours and unpaid furloughs, enforced overtime, no raises, cuts in benefits, safety net full of holes, crappy infrastructure, they are told to be grateful to have a job at all. Because you could get laid off, and then where will you be?

Even worse is when we tell ourselves that. Because we believe it, with good f'ing reason. And yes, I'm speaking from my own experience - I remember thinking this exact thing while I was hating my deceptive boss at my last job. Getting laid off was the best thing that could have happened for my mental health (I SUCK at professional politics) but it's certainly left me with few options and no room to make a mistake.
My tolerance for BS is limited, and I use up most of it IRL.

Offline junebug72

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #258 on: June 20, 2013, 05:13:38 PM »
There really isn't anything left for me to add.  Screwtape, NoGods, Jag and epidemic have said it all.  This is what I meant when I said we bring bad things on ourselves as a nation.  We tolerate it and the rich milk it.  If i could win the lottery I would start my own business and hire all of you at $100 thousand a year.  We would change the world.
Belief in a cruel God makes a cruel man.
Thomas Paine

Read more at http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/authors/t/thomas_paine.html#XXwlhVIMq06zWg2d.99

Offline Quesi

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #259 on: June 20, 2013, 07:30:40 PM »
Opps.  Posted in wrong thread.  My apologies. 

Offline screwtape

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Re: Is America Cursed?
« Reply #260 on: June 21, 2013, 07:01:39 AM »
a timely article in the Atlantic

 
Quote
rich kids without a college degree are 2.5 times more likely to end up rich than poor kids who do graduate from college.

http://www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2013/06/rip-american-dream-why-its-so-hard-for-the-poor-to-get-ahead-today/276943/
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